The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=9&m=79697
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/6/2008 7:17 PM | |
I have recently found out that there is definitely a dark side to participation in certain on-line fora supposedly dedicated to the writing of speculative fiction. Not only did I run into some rather toxic criticism and negative opinions regarding electronic publications, I also encountered a possible potential incident of idea theft.
During the course of a discussion about a fantasy cinquain, and the possible failings of said poem, one member came up with his own cinquain based on the same exact idea. The words were changed, but the theme and subject remained the same. He then asked about places he could possibly submit said poem, among others.
Now, I know full well that there is nothing illegal, or even necessarily wrong, in such an action, but I think it may be in seriously bad taste. It's possibly poor writer's/poet's etiquette, if nothing else.
Basically, I felt like I should have said to the guy "get your own ideas". I'm influenced by others, I may borrow from others, but I try not to write based completely on someone else's story unless it's a "new twist" on folklore, myths, or legends.
Anyway, I've posted the cinquain, along with a couple others, on my blogs and a forum or two. I figure I would get my poem about that theme out there first, just because.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Lyn - 5/6/2008 11:24 PM | That wasn't me was it? lol - but seriously, that's no good. What else do you think should be done?
Lyn from ResAliens
Reviewing Zines at The Fix
Reviewing Short Stories at My Blog
And Promoting Strange Worlds of Lunacy |
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/6/2008 11:40 PM | I can't imagine anyone here ever pulling such a stunt. Even if what he said was supposed to have been said in jest or just to get my goat (hard to tell on-line sometimes), it was in poor taste. And from what I've been told elsewhere, such "idea thievery" can happen, so maybe he was serious.
Well, I can't remove my poem from that particular forum because my account was apparently deactivated. I guess when I told the admin that I didn't care if he blocked me, he took it to heart. So, I have posted my original cinquain on my blogs, here on the SFReader forum, and on my web site. I've also posted an entry about this situation on my blogs. I don't know what else I could or should do. I've probably done enough.
It would be interesting to see the reply he gets if he does try to send the poem in to editors I may know, ones that may just see my blogs or forum posts. I've been networking like mad recently.
Yes, I can see it now: "Hmm...a cinquain about bones being thrown and foretelling a defeat, or similar bad martial outcome. Didn't we see almost the same concept, done in a similar format, before? Oh yeah, but it wasn't done by this guy!"
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 5/6/2008 11:43 PM |
RHFay said...
Well, I can't remove my poem from that particular forum because my account was apparently deactivated. I guess when I told the admin that I didn't care if he blocked me, he took it to heart. Wow! You were blocked? What the heck did you do?
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/7/2008 12:42 AM |
Wow! You were blocked? What the heck did you do?
I swaggered like an arrogant a**, blustered like a bombastic egomaniac, and flamed like a blazing fool. I also had the gall to point out that their little electronic playground wasn't really that important when compared to the wider world of publication. Oh, and I had the nerve to suggest that practical experience might actually mean something, and might just possibly trump certain opinions voiced by certain individual forumites. And I actually had the balls to claim that their criticisms were worthless to me as a poet and writer.
Or to put it simply, I had the audacity to loudly and clearly disagree with their opinions and views regarding the quality of my work and the usefullness of their forum in general.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/7/2008 12:59 AM | Oh, I forgot one bit. The brown stuff really hit the fan when my thread about these problems that I posted on another forum was highjacked by the admin from the forum with the potential "idea thief". Perhaps my conduct of cross-posting problems wasn't "good internet etiquette", but neither was high-jacking my thread. It seemed very petty to me, and more the actions of a "troll" than the actions of a reasonable admin. I kind of lost it after that.
Having just peeked at the ongoing comments on the second forum, the one with the highjacked thread, not the one with the idea thief, I can see that the b.s. is still flying thick and fast. Now the member that had originally invited me to join the forum with the potential "idea thief" is trying to claim that they commonly post harsh criticisms of each other's works, and it's all a part of the process of helping each other grow as writers.
Sounds to me more like getting your kicks by trashing other people's works, but maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe there are times when "harsh" criticism is acceptable, and even useful, but there didn't seem to be enough "professionalism" present there to make such behaviour acceptable. It was just a gut feeling I had.
And amazingly enough, few people actually seem to agree with the opinion that started this whole ruckus to begin with. Pardon me if I actually try to listen to more than one opinion regarding the quality of my works.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 5/7/2008 1:02 AM | Got a link?
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/7/2008 1:05 AM |
Jordan Lapp said...
Wow! You were blocked? What the heck did you do?
A final word about getting blocked - I pretty much figured it would happen on at least one of those fora, if not both. They pushed my buttons, so I pushed theirs.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/7/2008 1:18 AM |
Jordan Lapp said...Got a link?
So, Jordan, do you really want to see me at my worst? I guess I'm not really blocked so much as just no longer a member. My account was deactivated, but I can still get on the sites. However, I can't post on at least one of the fora.
If you really want to see me raging, here you go (I warn you, it's not pretty):
(Note something especially interesting about the criticisms of my horrorku - they weren't posted until a full two months after I originally posted the poetry, and only appeared after I mentioned the fact that the poems might appear in my forthcoming collection. Right away that made me suspicious of the true intent of the comments.)
(Gotta love this one, the cinquain that the same forumite claimed is all tell, no show, is Mystic Wino's favourite! That must be some odd form of poetic justice.)
(The cross-over thread and the subsequent comments that really made me go ballistic. This was the last straw, as it were.)
Maybe I overreacted, maybe I misinterpretted certain things, I don't know, and I don't really care. I got tired of those fora, and the headaches they caused me.
I think some of the forumites are a bit delusional about the importance of their little electronic hang-outs. I never really got much out of them, besides some self-promotion. And I had to take care when doing that, because they technically frowned upon it.
I wrote poetry, submitted poetry, and had poetry published before ever signing up on those fora.
Gee, if you buy into what those people are saying about me, I must be an unbelievably arrogant a##hole.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/7/2008 1:39 AM | And perhaps I should mention that I left one of the forums (the third link above) once before, after a raging debate about home-school. I was offended and disgusted by the implications that home-schoolers in general are somehow harming their children socially by keeping them out of "traditional" schools. Even though the comments were presented in general terms, I couldn't help but to take them personally.
And the loudest critic of home-schooling also became the loudest critic of my works once I returned to that same forum. So, in the back of my mind I always wondered about the true motive behind his negative comments.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/7/2008 1:47 AM | What petty little twirps they are! Knowing that some people on the forum mentioned above have actually been following my poetry publications with some interest (dare I call them fans?), I listed links to my MySpace and Live Journal profiles in a thread basically saying goodbye. The admin removed them.
Sorry if saying this here is crossing over into poor internet etiquette again, but I'm really p#ssed off now.
Yep, definitely time to stay away from those places.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/7/2008 2:30 AM | |
Yeah, I'm still going on about this...
I thought I would add my views on the moral of this sad story of internet woes and contributor meltdowns. Participating in on-line sites for writers can be great, it can be helpful, it can potentially help a writer grow, but you must always tread carefully through the cow pasture that is the world wide web. Step in the wrong place, enter the wrong site, and you might end up raising a big stink.
Moo...plop...plop...plop...phew!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 5/7/2008 4:48 PM |
MysticWino said...BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great use of the correct term: fora. Kudos!
I don't cotton to that sort o' talk, son.
'Round these parts, we like our dead languages to stay that way. |
| Posted By : HTKuehl - 5/8/2008 8:01 AM | And people wonder why I'm always wary about joining forums.....
"Learn to paint pictures with words." ~ Brian Jacques
"I never considered that I wouldn't make it. Ignorance is bliss sometimes. If I had known how hard it would be, I might have given up." ~ Kim Harrison
------------------------
Forthcoming:
"Raising the Dead." Bewildering Stories: Issue 288, May 5, 2008.
"To Have and to Hold." Flashshot, May 10, 2008.
"Fire and Brimstone." Every Day Fiction, May 16, 2008.
"The Final Goodbye." Ruins Metropolis. Hadley Rille Books, 2008.
"Dalamar's Quest." Flashing Swords, February 2009.
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| Posted By : Hermit - 5/8/2008 10:56 AM | Well, with only a cursory investigation, Richard, I'd say you're better off avoiding FifthWind.
Their format sucks farts out of a mule's rump (pardon the graphic description, but I now have eyestrain from reading through that thread). Readability is totally hostile over there no matter what the content, talent pool, and administration. As for your Danish friend . . . he's offbase a lot and likely tends to get dinged on every story for 'show don't tell' and is stuck on that. His cinquain was tripe. What's up with the "still moist"? I think I understand the point of that, but it's totally irrelevent to the poem. It's a matter of his own tastes. I would be seriously surprised if he could get either version published. Also, he seems to have a chip on his shoulder - and thinks it's you who has the chip, feeling that he needs to knock it off.
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/8/2008 11:17 AM |
MysticWino said...
Their format sucks farts out of a mule's rump...
LOL!  Thanks, David, I needed that.
Well, considering that they revoked my membership on that forum, I can't go back. Not that I was ever going back anyway; I had similar suspicions about the quality of their feedback and just the general atmosphere on their boards.
Amazingly enough, the majority of the people who have read the cinquain in question like it.
I may have behaved a bit badly on the other forum, but by that point I was angry. And, I have had similar encounters with another individual on that forum as well (can we say deja vu?). I was completely fed up with the whole stinking mess.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : John M. Whalen - 5/8/2008 12:55 PM |
HTKuehl said...And people wonder why I'm always wary about joining forums.....
William F. Nolan in his new book on writing, "Let's Get Creative: Writing Fiction That Sells" advises writers to avoid forums. He says they are addictive and can take up too much of the time you should spend writing. And it can lead to situations like the one described in this thread. That advice may be extreme. Forums can serve good purposes. Like getting to know writers of a "similar persuasion." And promotig your work. Moderation. But in any case, Richard, fwiw, I like your style. Tell it like it is, damn it. |
| Posted By : Steven the Git - 5/8/2008 3:04 PM | Just to let you know, I clicked on the first link and managed to read a page, but then the next one was gone, and the other link, and when I retried the first link that went too. All told me that this thread does not exist. So something was just changed.
However, being able to read that one page and seeing the bitching that went on after you had left, I'd say you were better off away from it.
The comment about feeling sorry for your kids because they are home schooled was particularly shitty.
“Hello, I am William Burton, Head of Recruitment and Integration for the Agency for Peaceful Regulation and Definitive Cooperation of Extraordinary Existence.”
spinetinglers.co.uk Bakemono will not stop! |
| Posted By : Hermit - 5/8/2008 3:34 PM | Okay. I'm going to have to come clean on something. Not too long ago, I might have made disparaging remarks about homeschooling [though not likely insulting unless I had cause to believe you weren't qualified]. Fact is, I see no reason to be venomous about it unless one feels guilty about not home-schooling one's own child(ren). Which is my guess. I've since changed my estimation of home-schooling for a number of reasons. I admire those who can manage it; I haven't the patience myself. And, truth to tell, I have serious problems with the public education system around here. Testing is an absolute farce the way they use it. And that's not the worst, but I'm not going into that tirade here . . . I did coach both my sons to educate themselves while playing the education game with their schools. Nearly took the younger one out of his Middle School because of a yelling match I had with the STUPID administration of that school. Fascist mattress-thrashing little so-and-so hyena bitches! It worked against me at the time that I was on Prednisone, which tends to make me a raving maniac . . . So, anyway, my hat's off to all you home-schoolers out there.
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/8/2008 8:21 PM |
Steven the Git said...The comment about feeling sorry for your kids because they are home schooled was particularly shitty.
Oh, I didn't see that one. Yep, quality people there, alright.
In case anyone is interested, my daughter has already taken three college courses. She got an A in French I. As of the midterm grades, she was getting an A in both French II and Comp I. She was also in the college theatre club production of Macbeth, and got rave reviews for her performance as Young MacDuff (she loves Shakespeare). And, she starts college full-time in the fall. That's pretty darn impressive for a fifteen year old!
Also, since we have to have some sort of recognised evaluation to report to the school district, my daughter had taken the 11-12th grade level CAT test. She scored in the 99 percentile overall.
My daughter's participation in the theatre club, and previous stints in theatre classes and skating lessons show have shown that she can socialise just as well as a public school student. She was often the one the instructors relied on to help out. Her grades and performance in college show she's getting a decent education.
I think that all speaks for itself, don't you?
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/8/2008 8:48 PM | Maybe I should have put the above in the brag threads.  Can you tell I'm proud of my kid? 
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RoberII - 5/8/2008 9:54 PM | Hello, RoberII here.
I'm sorry, but I found this forum through RHFays livejournal, and I felt I had to chime in. I take this accusation of plagiarism very seriously.
First of all, I never intended to submit that poem to anything. My exact words were "These are fun, where can I submit them?"
Second of all, my critique was harsh and fair. You may agree with it or you may not, but I would like to point out that I consistently contrasted and compared your two poems, finding one to be very good and the other one boring and poorly written. I hope this clears me of your jealousy charge. I actually really liked your moonlight sacrifice poem. It was good writing, regardless of whether it fit the haiku definition. You received the exact same treatment anyone else would have received: A quick glance through our submissions will confirm this. We do not coddle people.
(Such a glance now requires membership - non-members should not be able to read them due to first print rights.)
Now, I had given RHFay the critique he had explicitly asked for. But RHFay reacted with snide contempt, however, not just for me, but for the entire forum. Our opinions were worthless simply due to the fact that we were not published. We lived in our own little electronic world, blind to the outside world of.. Electronic magazines. My suggestion that he take a look at my practical experience and read my actal writing was met with the phrase "poetry posted on some little forum does not impress me at all" (from memory) - regardless of the craftsmanship of those poems or short stories.
The fact that you are now unwelcome on two fora, not just one, should make you think twice about your actions. And speculative vision is not some tiny little unknown forum, either, but was mentioned by Reader's Digest as one of the best resources out there for writers. But although RD reccommends it, it's not 'professional' enough for RHFay.
(For those interested, the 'hijacked' thread is here - notice how RHFay is the first one to bring it off topic, while The Master apologizes and tries to keep the discussion calm.)
http://speculativevision.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3026
However, I and the forum in general, is ashamed of what happened in the aftermath of all this. The comments about his children are below the usual standards of our forum, I can assure you. They were not aimed at homeschooling so much as the silly costumes RHFay is seen in on his homepage, as well as the fact that we had just been witness to some of the most absurd behaviour we had ever experienced on the forum. Nevertheless, I apologize to you for those comments, Richard.
Regards, Bob.
PS. I did not just come here to start a flame war. This looks to be a good writing community, and I would like to join - I hope the above civility is testament to this. |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 5/8/2008 10:00 PM | Wow. It's a battle that spans the internet. Epic.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : RoberII - 5/8/2008 10:03 PM | | The bright side of all of this is that I have been led to Speculative Vision and now this place. Both seem to be excellent writing sites, and I do hope I will be allowed to stay. |
| Posted By : Lyn - 5/8/2008 10:38 PM | Anyone can stay. We have an "anything goes" thread to discuss...well, anything. No flaming, etc. But yeah, this is a good place. But we do defend each other. And when someone brags we all say congrats. These aren't official rules - I'm just making observation - but if you can defend and support the team, then jump in! Welcome.
Lyn from ResAliens
Reviewing Zines at The Fix
Reviewing Short Stories at My Blog
And Promoting Strange Worlds of Lunacy |
| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 5/8/2008 10:41 PM | RoberII: I for one hope you will stick around here. It's generally a good mix of people with widely varied writing experience and success. I'm sure we can all learn from one another.
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. |
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/8/2008 11:44 PM |
RoberII said...
The comments about his children are below the usual standards of our forum, I can assure you. They were not aimed at homeschooling so much as the silly costumes RHFay is seen in on his homepage... Actually, my web site has gotten some positive attention. I began submitting artwork for publication on a fairly regular basis after one editor saw the art on my web site and suggested that I submit artwork to accompany my poetry.
Since I often compose poetry and illustrations inspired by history, myth, legend, and folklore, I thought a "medieval/fantasy style" photo would be appropriate on my bio page. I am actually dressed in a blue canvass gambeson, leather scale armour, and leather gauntlets with brass accents that I made, and a steel Medieval war-hat that I purchased. I have seen some horror authors and artists use "dark themed" photos on their profiles and web sites, so I tried to come up with something that symbolised my interests.
If you look at my artwork pages, you will see several examples of knights and other medieval warriors. I feel that my bio photo fits with the style of my artwork.
As for the silly photo on my "Just for Fun' page, it's meant to be a joke. I call it my "Monty Python Picture" after seeing a Monty Python sketch where one of the Monty Python members had "googly eyes" just like I have in the photo. I figured that page was a nice break from my more serious material, and the photo again fits the theme.
I don't think my contact page photo is really silly at all, although I guess it is bad manners to wear a hat indoors. I like that hat, though, and do sometimes wear it when I'm out and about.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 5/9/2008 12:36 AM | Hi RoberII,
I've sent you a private message. You'll see a link at the top of this forum called private messages. Please click on it to access your inbox.
Everyone else, the place for a personal discussion is in private or (if you must take it public) the Anything Goes forum.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
Managing Editor of Flashing Swords
Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 5/14/2008 4:58 AM |
RHFay said...
I swaggered like an arrogant a**, blustered like a bombastic egomaniac, and flamed like a blazing fool. I also had the gall to point out that their little electronic playground wasn't really that important when compared to the wider world of publication. Oh, and I had the nerve to suggest that practical experience might actually mean something, and might just possibly trump certain opinions voiced by certain individual forumites. And I actually had the balls to claim that their criticisms were worthless to me as a poet and writer.
Or to put it simply, I had the audacity to loudly and clearly disagree with their opinions and views regarding the quality of my work and the usefullness of their forum in general.
Goddamn good for you boy! 
You're starting to sound like me! 
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 5/14/2008 5:09 AM | I personally wouldn't join a forum where a guy I'd had a heated disagreement with on another forum was already a member.
But that's just me.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/14/2008 10:25 AM |
Jaqhama said...
Goddamn good for you boy!
You're starting to sound like me!
Thanks, Jaqhama. I consider it a compliment.
Actually, in reference to another discussion about arguing, I never said I never argue. There are times I can be quite argumentative. 
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 5/14/2008 12:16 PM |
RHFay said...
Jaqhama said...
Goddamn good for you boy!
You're starting to sound like me!
Thanks, Jaqhama. I consider it a compliment.
Actually, in reference to another discussion about arguing, I never said I never argue. There are times I can be quite argumentative.
Are you trying to start an argument??? 
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : RHFay - 5/14/2008 12:28 PM |
Jaqhama said...
Are you trying to start an argument???
Not today.
Cheers! 
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Lyn - 5/14/2008 1:04 PM | So you want to start an argument?
Man I'd like to have an argument please.
Receptionist Certainly, sir. Have you been here before...?
Man No, this is my first time.
Receptionist I see. Do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
Man Well, what would be the cost?
Receptionist Yes, it's one pound for a five-minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
Man Well, I think it's probably best if I start with the one and see how it goes from there. OK?
Receptionist Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment ... Mr. Du-Bakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory ... yes, try Mr. Barnard - Room 12.
Lyn from ResAliens
Reviewing Zines at The Fix
Reviewing Short Stories at My Blog
And Promoting Strange Worlds of Lunacy |
| Posted By : Hermit - 5/14/2008 4:23 PM | | Another organization I refuse to join since they'll let someone like me in . . .
"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell |
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