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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 11:56 AM | I will not, apparently, ever be published in Realms of Fantasy magazine. 
Realms of Fantasy only accept postal manuscript submissions...
I sent an email asking if they would be prepared to read the first ten pages of the novella via email.
(Seeing as how I'm in Oz and it's obviously easier and cheaper for me to do this.)
I said if they liked the first ten pages I'd be happy to submit the entire manuscript via snail mail later.
Got a relpy explaining that they will not accept any email subs at all.
I sent back a reply pointing out that once again here's a magzaine that's happy to utilise the internet for their advertising and subscription payments and their newsletters and their ROF Forum...yet refuses to utilise the internet on behalf of writers, particularly those in overseas countires.
I was quite cutting about it.
I called them 'intractable'.
On their forum they say they only read paper subs.
Once again it's ok for us writers to slave away in front of a computer screen for hours...but heaven forbid that some magazine editors should be forced to read off a computer screen themselves...even ten pages or less worth.
I mean that's just shocking isn't it? Too awful to contemplate?
I then got this reply:
You shouldn't argue with the policies of a magazine's editors, no matter how fussy you think we are. All it does is make us fussier. Case in point, should you decide to send your international submissions via snail-mail at some point in the future, be certain to keep us off your list of potential markets.
And this is what I sent back.
Oh I wasn't arguing...I was merely point out that you guys are quite happy to use the medium of the Internet...as it suits your requirements...but not for any of your potential international writers/submitters.
This 'you shouldn't argue with the editor' line is getting old real fast. It makes no impression on me whatsoever.
It's still a free world (kind of) and if I disagree with a magazine or an editor's view then I'll say so.
I'm not a sheep. Threats of not being published don't bother me in the slightest.
And your assumption that I might at some future point send you a postal manuscript is misguided.
With so many magazines and webzines and publishing houses now accepting email subs...why would I bother to send a paper manuscript to you guys?
That's just not logical.
(Although if you had been prepared to read at least ten pages of my novella via email and liked it...then I would have happily have sent the whole manuscript via normal post...having then been assured that you were interested enough in the story to have me go to the trouble and expense of posting it. I believe that was a very reasonable request...but as I wrote before...intractable.)
Hey...it's your magazine...you reject email subs as you see fit.
I think you will find that as time goes by (and it's happening already) fewer and fewer writers in countries overseas will go to the trouble of sending postal manuscripts to the USA.
A lot of publishing companies have moved with the times...those that don't...well we all know what happened to the dinosaurs don't we?
Thoughts to ponder on for sure.
Cheers: Jaqhama.
Now I expect some of you here at the SF Forum think I can be a real pain in the ass when I want to.
And you're correct.
But if I see something 'wrong' then I'm prepared to stand up and say so.
So the guy's an editor...so what?
I don't live in fear of not being published. (And the threat not to publish a story I might send later via snail mail...gee, talk about predictable. )
It's not like I read; or know anyone else in Sydney who subscribes to ROF anyway. 
I'm not having a shot at all editors here by the way...just the one's who keep harping on about how they won't accept email subs...but use the internet and all that it entails to advertise, promote and sell their magazine in the first place.
Like some of us here and on other forums have said before...if magazine companies aren't prepared to accept email subs as the years go by...one day they're going to wake up and wonder why they aren't are getting that many.
And here's an ironic story for you...my editor at Bikernet is Keith 'Bandit' Ball...he was for many years the editor of the infamous Easyriders magazine...more than ten years ago now Bandit started the online biker lifestyle webzine called Bikernet...many people in the paper magazine publishing industry thought he was crazy...yet today Bikernet is the biggest online Harley/Custom motorcycle webzine on the planet. Bikernet has an admirable list of sponsors and advertisers from all aspects of the motorcycle world and beyond. The webzine gets over a million hits a month and has a list of paid up subscribers in the thousands from all over the world.
Not bad for being 'only' an internet webzine huh?
Bikernet is read by more people, in more countries, than any motorcycle magazine anywhere.
Bandit nicely anticipated, and has continued to do so, the rise of the Internet and its ever growing popularity.
All subs to Bikernet are via email...there is no paper at all.
I always think it strange that a hardcore biker webzine is so up to date, and that so many other 'genre' publishers...including sci-fi magazines that (one would think) would be at the forefront of internet technology..either aren't...or refuse to become so.
It's an odd world.
Cheers: Jaq.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : darkbow - 4/23/2008 12:05 PM | My guess would be some editors only accept snail-mail subs because it keeps down the number of subs they receive. Some magazines receive hundreds or thousands of subs a month.
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 12:17 PM | Ah...I just got another reply from ROF in regards to that last email I sent.
They say (and I agree it's their right) to use the internet as they wish.
They also seem to think that I may have 'burned my bridges' in regards to taking other editors to task.
That's actually not the case.
Their no email policy just irritated me is all. They weren't going to read any of my novella via email, and I'm certainly not sending the whole thing by post until they do, so having a shot at their policy made no difference to me.
They claim they get plenty of postal manuscripts from overseas...I'm sure they do...but how many superb stories do they miss out on because they won't accept email subs?
They also claim they have the second largest circulation in the spectulative magazine field. And that maybe the dinosaurs will be around a bit longer. (I like the humour there, very good.)
(Hey...what's the largest circulation of spec fiction?)
It was nice of them to reply at all I guess. And I do understand it's their right to accept/read/reject/do/don't subs and stories any way they wish...it still irritates me though.
I kinda wrote my cutting letter on behalf of all those people who might wish to speak up about the email subs policy...but probably never would...because they fear not being published in the magazine.
It's not something that bothers me.
Rock on!
Cheers: jaq.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/23/2008 12:24 PM | Oooohhh. You made Doug's bad list. Top of the blog today.
He's actually a pretty decent guy, at least he was kind enough to answer my ranting questions on the forum once.
I always figured their reason for sticking to snail mail was pretty much for the same reasons Darkbow said. But I can sympathize with the cost of submitting a story, mail rates are going up again too. 
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 12:25 PM |
darkbow said...My guess would be some editors only accept snail-mail subs because it keeps down the number of subs they receive. Some magazines receive hundreds or thousands of subs a month.
Then they should say that's the reason they will only accept paper manuscripts.
One magazine actually says they won't take electronic subs 'cause it hurts their eyes to read off the computer screen. 
These people would never last a day at an IT company.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 12:41 PM |
T A Markitan said...Oooohhh. You made Doug's bad list. Top of the blog today. He's actually a pretty decent guy, at least he was kind enough to answer my ranting questions on the forum once. I always figured their reason for sticking to snail mail was pretty much for the same reasons Darkbow said. But I can sympathize with the cost of submitting a story, mail rates are going up again too.
Gee, now I'm worried. 
Give us a link to the Blog...I'm interested to see what he says.
He's probably venting the 'I'm the Editor' and how dare some almost unknown writer critise the editorial policy of the magazine?
Yawn.
NOTE: I just read the blog entry. Yeah...mustn't argue with an editor. Confirms what I thought.
More yawning.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 1:03 PM | | No, Doug's a pretty nice guy.
As nice as it feels, it really serves no purpose to write biting e-mails to editors. Writing is a profession--it pays to act professional. Remember, editors are quite often friends with each other. If you get banned at one place, your submissions are likely to receive a chilly reception at other markets.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 1:09 PM |
As nice as it feels, it really serves no purpose to write biting e-mails to editors. Writing is a profession--it pays to act professional. Remember, editors are quite often friends with each other. If you get banned at one place, your submissions are likely to receive a chilly reception at other markets.
Jordan I really don't give a toss mate.
I'll say what I want to who I want if I disagree with something.
The fear of not being published by someone because I'm not afraid to speak my mind holds no worries for me at all.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 1:17 PM | | Here's a very interesting article by literary agent Nathan Bransford called the No A**hole Rule, which makes some very valid points on why it pays to act professional.
Here's a (longish) quote from the article, but the whole thing makes for great reading:
Nathan Bransford said...
Way back when in simpler times, the book was what mattered. The author may have had to do some events and readings, but for the most part an author's engagement with the public was limited. Word of mouth and reviews drove sales. If a writer wrote a good book but was a pill to deal with, that was basically ok.
Not so much anymore.
Now, via TV, radio, the Internet, lots more travel, etc., the author is face to face with their readership more than ever before and is called upon to generate sales opportunities -- this requires social skills. They are also more closely in touch with people within a publishing organization -- also requiring social skills. And it helps when people want to work with an author because they're an awesome, friendly, professional, hardworking author.
Is a publisher going to decline to publish a great book simply because the author is a jerk and a handful? Probably not. But when those difficult and nebulous decisions are being made in a publishing house, such as who gets what advertising and who is going to be the lead title and a great deal of complex factors are being weighed, put a great personality in the "pro" column for an author.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/23/2008 1:19 PM | | Although it would be nice if all markets accepted e-mail subs or at least subs from abroad, one can't argue with their policies. I live in Canada and every time I need to sub to the US, to the UK or to Australia it sucks because I have to buy IRCs, postage, etc. I just choose my markets carefully and sub more often to places that to take subs by e-mail.
I also hate it when markets want me to underline a word instead of italicize it (what is this, 1965?) but I do it if I'm interested in getting in that market.
I don't think most major markets are afraid of missing subs because of their submission policies. The pro markets like F&SF, Realms of Fantasy, Analog, The Writers of the Future anthology, do not accept e-mail subs. The exception seem to be the e-zines like Strange Horizons and Clarkesworld, for obvious reasons. |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 1:28 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...Here's a very interesting article by literary agent Nathan Bransford called the No A**hole Rule, which makes some very valid points on why it pays to act professional.
Here's a (longish) quote from the article, but the whole thing makes for great reading:
Nathan Bransford said...
Way back when in simpler times, the book was what mattered. The author may have had to do some events and readings, but for the most part an author's engagement with the public was limited. Word of mouth and reviews drove sales. If a writer wrote a good book but was a pill to deal with, that was basically ok.
Not so much anymore.
Now, via TV, radio, the Internet, lots more travel, etc., the author is face to face with their readership more than ever before and is called upon to generate sales opportunities -- this requires social skills. They are also more closely in touch with people within a publishing organization -- also requiring social skills. And it helps when people want to work with an author because they're an awesome, friendly, professional, hardworking author.
Is a publisher going to decline to publish a great book simply because the author is a jerk and a handful? Probably not. But when those difficult and nebulous decisions are being made in a publishing house, such as who gets what advertising and who is going to be the lead title and a great deal of complex factors are being weighed, put a great personality in the "pro" column for an author.
I don't do social skills Jordan.
I do honesty and the right to speak my mind.
And this pro writer stuff...more than a million people have read my Bikernet stories and articles...so I reckon I'm already in front of a lot of authors in the world?
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 1:44 PM |
SilviaMG said...
Although it would be nice if all markets accepted e-mail subs or at least subs from abroad, one can't argue with their policies. I live in Canada and every time I need to sub to the US, to the UK or to Australia it sucks because I have to buy IRCs, postage, etc. I just choose my markets carefully and sub more often to places that to take subs by e-mail.
I also hate it when markets want me to underline a word instead of italicize it (what is this, 1965?) but I do it if I'm interested in getting in that market.
I don't think most major markets are afraid of missing subs because of their submission policies. The pro markets like F&SF, Realms of Fantasy, Analog, The Writers of the Future anthology, do not accept e-mail subs. The exception seem to be the e-zines like Strange Horizons and Clarkesworld, for obvious reasons. If you're sending a sub to Oz Silvia just email it to me as an attachment and I'll print it out and send it off to the publisher for you.
No charge.
Unless you've written a 500 page novel...?
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/23/2008 1:46 PM | | Lol, not a novel. Well picture this: before the glorious days of the Internet ... subbing from Mexico ... where they DON'T sell IRCS. So I had to stock up on stamps when I visited the US or ask my family in Baja to go across the border and please get stamps and send them to me. That was, if I was interested in reaching an English-speaking audiences. All I can say is: thank you, thank you, thank you for e-mails.
Computers are very nice too. Carbon copies are nasty. :)
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 1:54 PM |
SilviaMG said...
Lol, not a novel. Well picture this: before the glorious days of the Internet ... subbing from Mexico ... where they DON'T sell IRCS. So I had to stock up on stamps when I visited the US or ask my family in Baja to go across the border and please get stamps and send them to me. That was, if I was interested in reaching an English-speaking audiences. All I can say is: thank you, thank you, thank you for e-mails.
Computers are very nice too. Carbon copies are nasty. :)
Yeah...I didn't submit much before the days of the Internet.
Send me a PM if you ever want me to send something off for you.
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 1:58 PM | If no SASE is required, you could always avail yourselves of eSnailer.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/23/2008 2:02 PM | | I didn't know e-Snailer existed. Thanks for the tip! And for the offer to send my stuff.
If anyone wants to do an exchange of stamps or manuscripts (I print yours and send it, you print mine and send it) I can send anything in Canada on your behalf or mail you Canadian stamps. Just FYI. |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 2:09 PM | Ummm...if this esnailer is completly free...is the US post office not going to be losing a lot of money in the future?
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 2:14 PM | You could read the text on the site. It's not long. There's even a link that says "How could this be free?".
There's a free option that asks you to click on their ads.... or there's a paid version where no clicking is involved.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 2:19 PM | Yes...I was just reading that as you posted. Interesting concept.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 2:21 PM | I've never used the service myself. I'm not sure if there's a maximum length, and I don't know if there's a SASE option. But it might be worth a shot...
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : erazmus - 4/23/2008 2:26 PM | I see Jaqhama's point. It is hard to play in awe of the top markets when the top markets in the field have such . . . embarassingly small readerships. A glance at the responses to the blog will reveal some of the problem. I doubt a sudden stop of all the overseas submissions would actually clear the way for any wanna-be writer's sub-par stories, but they gleefully smack their lips over there now being less competeion.
Of course I wouldn't have handled this in such a confrontational manner. I too am a complete dick-head at times but I do figure places like RoF will catch-up to the world or die, and its not up to me to try to convince them which way to go. What I would have done is find a buddy in the US willing to help me out by printing and mailing my US postal submissions from his US addy in return for compensation of his/her expenses.
But thats just me, I can see why Jaqhama decided to undertake, on behalf of all writers down-under and 'round the world, to argue his point. The whole world isn't blessed, to begin with, with reliable postal service. As Gustavo recently remarked-- Mexico, our nearest neighbor to the south, has a particularly unreliable post-service. As do many regions. Even if your postal service is excellent, the expense is marked, and the return, in todays economy, is shrinking relative to that cost by the day. Writers in Australia, New Zeland, Great Britian, Ireland , South Africa and even Canada are looking at much greater costs to submit and much smaller returns on a sale if they should be so lucky as to make one, as well as a diminished amount of exposure as a result of shrinking distribution.
Is a sale to RoF after say, seven or eight very expensive trys really worth the investment when you can score a sale to say, oh, Weird Tales, for half the pay but with almost no expense involved? It probably is for me, here in Colorado, because the expense will be wiped out by the return, being so much smaller. But with forty, fifty times the expense? Wouldn't be enough left of the check to buy a steak and a brew. The e-sub market's check, though smaller, would have enough left over for at least a hamburger. The exposure factor?
I dunno. The readership has a lot of overlap, and right now RoF certainly has more readers. But enough more? Thats a question every writer would have to answer for themselves.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Pink Plastic Flamingos" in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/m.html
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 2:59 PM | | Just as a heads up, someone commented on Doug's blog that Jaqhama was complaining here, and Doug asked for the link, so I sent it to him.
From his response:
The Slushmaster said...
I am sympathetic to the plight of international mailings, but I don't make the rules at ROF, nor do I have the power to change them. Holding me accountable gets you nowhere. And for the record, I do prefer to read off the page. Not only is it less tiring on the eyes, but I like the tactile pleasure of turning the page to learn what will happen next. It's a far more engaging experience. Cost aside, I'd think most authors would want editors to consider their work in the manner in which they're the most comfortable Like I said, Doug is a class act, and he offers several valid points.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 3:20 PM | I'll give you another thought...how many magazines have/will go out of business because they don't/can't/won't provide electronic magazines to readers around the world?
It was arrogant of me to mention the million or so people who have read mine (and many others moto-journalists and contributing writers) stories and articles over at Bikernet. I only did it to illustrate that email submissions and a completly electronic webzine can be a viable source of income for the publishers and a wide array of exposure for the writers and photographers and artists.
I grant you that finding the kind of sponsors and advertisers for sci-fi and fanatsy magazines that some non-fiction webzines have is likely a problem. And it's the advertisers that make the difference in how much the writers get paid.
I digress; what I mean is...would many sci-fi and fantasy magazines (not that I believe there are that many paper ones anyway) have a bigger readership if they supplied an electronic magazine as well as a paper magazine?
I'm guessing yes...because while Gengis in Outer Mongolia is unlikely to order a paper version of a magazine from the USA...I believe he would (if he could afford it) undoubtably order an electronic version that appears on his computer screen and can be downloaded onto paper if he wishes.
The whole paper submission and paper copy magazine idea is, I am sure, going to become more and more antiquated as the years go by.
I honestly cannot remember the last time I posted a letter at the post office.
Sure I've gone there to pick up packages and such...but unless I sent a package I have no reason to use the postal service here at all.
All my writing stuff and all my work stuff is done via the internet.
I'm sure that's true for millions of others around the world now.
I'm sure paper books will be around for many years to come...but I'm equally sure that many publishers in the near future will offer the books they print and sell in bookshops as an electronic version. They'd be crazy not to.
It's worth remembering that home printers are getting more sophisticated and cheaper as well.
For the price of a $20 paperback I could buy a ream of paper for $2 and print out that downloaded 500 page novel in less than half an hour. Probably quicker with one of the latest home printers. The colour on home printers is so good now that the covers would be printed out as well. And the word size can be whatever you want.
It's a whole new world out there in terms of books and magazines.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 3:47 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...
Just as a heads up, someone commented on Doug's blog that Jaqhama was complaining here, and Doug asked for the link, so I sent it to him.
From his response:
The Slushmaster said...
I am sympathetic to the plight of international mailings, but I don't make the rules at ROF, nor do I have the power to change them. Holding me accountable gets you nowhere. And for the record, I do prefer to read off the page. Not only is it less tiring on the eyes, but I like the tactile pleasure of turning the page to learn what will happen next. It's a far more engaging experience. Cost aside, I'd think most authors would want editors to consider their work in the manner in which they're the most comfortable Like I said, Doug is a class act, and he offers several valid points.
Let's be clear on one thing...I have nothing against Douglas at all. We disagee on email submissions is all, and how it will affect magazines and book publishers in the future.
We also disagree on a writer not being able to critique a magazine or an editor.
This seems especially prevelent in fictional writing circles. Possibly even more so in sci-fi and fanatsy, though why this should be I'm not sure.
Myself and some of the editors of bike and military magazines and webzines have argued about stuff back and forth using harsh language and casting aspertions on each other's parentage...but that's never stopped them publishing an article they liked or me from submitting one.
We're all adults...we can handle abuse and give it back. What I have noticed in the non-fiction market is that editors are much more open to debate and ideas and alternative suggestions.
As I said here once before...they could care less about email subs, formatting and the occassional spelling mistake. The italic under-lining and all that crap...they're the editors, they get paid to fix up that stuff if they like the actual content of the article. (Well they probably get some poor underling to do it for them truth to tell.)
I wasn't holding Douglas accountable per se. I actually addressed my orginal email query to Shawna, who is I understand the actual Editor? And she therefore could decide to accept the occassional email submission if she wished yes?
Douglas has pointed out on his blog that I edited my postings here in regards to what he and I discussed...Yes I did...I was trying to keep the post to a reasonable length...I'm quite happy to post up the entire written debate we had if he or anyone requests I do so.
Please feel free to do so.
As I said...I'm not about social skills...I'm about speaking my mind and I certainly wouldn't want Douglas or anyone else to not be able to do so themseleves.
And like I said previously...ROF is their magazine and they are free to accept subs any way they wish.
It doesn't mean I have to like it or that I can't make comment on it.
I myself would not ban someone from submitting to a magazine or a webzine simply because they disgreed with me or editorial policy.
Cheers: Jaq.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 4:40 PM |
Jaqhama said...
What I have noticed in the non-fiction market is that editors are much more open to debate I think it's a matter of supply and demand. Although I'm not an expert, I believe that writers for motorcycling magazines who are both educated and eloquent enough to write professionally are far rarer than writers of fiction, and therefore are entitled to a bit more "coddling". Writers of fiction are a dime--no a half-penny--a dozen. A market doesn't suffer in the slightest from banning one author when they have thousands to choose from.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/23/2008 4:55 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...
Jaqhama said...
What I have noticed in the non-fiction market is that editors are much more open to debate I think it's a matter of supply and demand. Although I'm not an expert, I believe that writers for motorcycling magazines who are both educated and eloquent enough to write professionally are far rarer than writers of fiction, and therefore are entitled to a bit more "coddling". Writers of fiction are a dime--no a half-penny--a dozen. A market doesn't suffer in the slightest from banning one author when they have thousands to choose from.
Are you suggesting that the majority of motorcyclists are not well educated or eloquent?
Many bikers are the CEO's of international companies (as an example) Like car drivers, today's bikers come from all walks of life and all social systems.
I don't expect the market does suffer Jordan...you miss the point.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/23/2008 5:02 PM | Personally, this is the sort of thing I wouldn't even have sent an e-mail about to begin with. So what if a place doesn't take e-subs? If you really don't care about being blacklisted anyway, what's it matter? If getting published in that market is no big deal to you, why send repeated messages? I would have just sent my material to another market and be done with it.
I know of at least one market that did take e-subs and then stopped because of the overwhelming number of submissions received (saw it in somebody's guidelines, but can't remember where). E-subs may be the way of the future, but I doubt any of these places that take only snail mail subs are hurting for material. Some places need some way to keep the amount of slush to a somewhat manageable level, and accepting only subs from people willing to pay outrageous postage rates may be one of those ways.
Ever think it's a hoop they are making you jump through? And if you aren't willing to jump through that hoop, then perhaps you aren't really that dedicated to getting your work published in their publication? And if you aren't that dedicated to getting published in their venue, then why should they be concerned? (A possible viewpoint from "the other side".)
Just my two-cents worth.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 5:02 PM | Lol.... Jaqhama, I KNEW you'd make that connection, and I tried to phrase my comment so that you wouldn't.... but the stereotype is so prevalent I don't blame you.
I simply meant that the market is smaller because "bikers that write" is a smaller subset of professional writers than the set of "writers of fiction". That "eloquent and educated" was my attempt to not cause offence... but it appears to have had the opposite effect. I'd love to buy a bike myself, but I like in Vancouver, and therefore have like 10 sunny days a year in which to enjoy it.
What is the point that I've missed? Editors should be nicer when someone writes an abrasive e-mail?
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : C.L. - 4/23/2008 5:03 PM | Seems to me the issue causing the trouble is- should a writer be allowed to discuss magazine policies with the editor. Keeping in mind that I say discuss, not argue, then why on earth not? 
Icon and Art by Selina Fenech www.selinafenech.com |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 5:07 PM |
C.L. said...
Seems to me the issue causing the trouble is- should a writer be allowed to discuss magazine policies with the editor. Keeping in mind that I say discuss, not argue, then why on earth not?
I certainly agree with you C.L. If people post questions on the EDF forums, I gladly explain our policies.
In fact, if Jaqhama had searched the RoF forums, he might have found that this question has been answered there.... several times.
Look, I don't mean to be argumentative, but as the recepient of several poorly worded e-mail from slighted writers in my position of Editor of EDF, I have to say I sympathize with Doug.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : erazmus - 4/23/2008 5:13 PM | Well, but he didn't get the editor, did he?
He got the EA, a fine fellow who, as he says, couldn't change things if he wanted. I don't doubt the editor, Shawna McCarthy, gets this all the time anyway. Besides editing RoF, she's also an agent (represents Eric Flint among others, who edits Baen's Universe and only takes e-subs). She doesn't live in a bubble, and as she has held fast to H/C subs for her magazine over the years, she must have reasons. The current method works for her, end of story.
Either method seems to result in more than enough quality subs to maintain a publishing schedual, at pro rates anyway. As has been pointed out, fiction writers are not in short supply, unfortunatly.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Pink Plastic Flamingos" in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/m.html
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/23/2008 5:15 PM |
Jaqhama said...
This seems especially prevelent in fictional writing circles. Possibly even more so in sci-fi and fanatsy, though why this should be I'm not sure.
Intelligentsia egos gone beserk? Intellectual elitists thumbing their noses at the masses? A deep, dark conspiracy by the illuminati? Or perhaps simple pig-headedness?  I dunno. (Trying to be funny. Probably not really succeeding, but trying anyway.)
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : C.L. - 4/23/2008 5:43 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...
...poorly worded... And that probably explains everything.
Icon and Art by Selina Fenech www.selinafenech.com |
| Posted By : David de Beer - 4/23/2008 7:27 PM | | What I would have done is find a buddy in the US willing to help me out by printing and mailing my US postal submissions from his US addy in return for compensation of his/her expenses
yes, this is what I did. It costs a lot,but less than if I had to mail it myself, and here is one way to use the internet to good effect in the matter of snail mail only submissions (and making overseas friends to begin with).
I don't do it often, though, for obvious reasons.
Re: readerships - I'll have to dig up my YB by Dozois, but he posted the numbers in there. ROF and Analong has the highest circulation numbers, both over 15k I think, with Asimovs close, and F&SF thereabouts.
Clarkesworld gets about 5k hits per month, more or less, and Fantasy magazine is also roughly 3k or so. Sean Wallace does regular breakdowns on his blog.
Strange Horizons don't count their hits, says they can't make much of the numbers. Chizine has a mailing list of about 1800 people, and they work on the conservative estimate of about 300 readers per issue (don't ask me where I saw that, cannot remember).
Interzone has about 2k subscribers, I think, Apex Digest close to 450.
JBU - no idea, at least 5k would be my guess.
Point is, the numbers aren't huge, but the big four have significantly higher readerships still. Payment is much higher. So, now and then it's worth going through the schlep of a snail mail and ulcerating about whether the letter will survive across continents.
yes, I would prefer to have all subs be email, but I don't make the rules and while frustrated at times, them's the breaks and we have to adapt to them.
http://david-debeer.com |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/23/2008 7:32 PM |
David de Beer said...
What I would have done is find a buddy in the US willing to help me out by printing and mailing my US postal submissions from his US addy in return for compensation of his/her expenses
Clarkesworld gets about 5k hits per month, more or less, and Fantasy magazine is also roughly 3k or so. Just as an addendum, Neil Clarke just posted on EDF that Clarkesworld actually gets close to 8K uniques.
The circulation of the big three is reported by Gardner Dozois in Year's Best every year. Here's last year's stats:
Asimov's: 15117 (Subscription only, no newstand figures).
Analog : 23732 (plus 4587 newsstand)
Fantasy & Science Fiction: 14575 (plus 3691 newstand)
Interzone's monthly circulation is between two and three thousand.
Analog's is still the wide leader. Don't know why RoF doesn't show up, but 15K sounds about right.
And because we're sharing numbers, Every Day Fiction gets 9K (not including subscribers which is another 1K). We're up there with the bigs.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Rob Santa - 4/23/2008 7:57 PM | Seems like a waste of your time and energy Jaq. I like the bullheadedness of your approach, but I can't imagine any scenario where a positive result could have happened.
Me, I'll never take a paper sub, not in this world where everyone has a computer, everyone has internet access, and everyone understands how paper doesn't grow on trees (um, well, you know what I mean). No, I don't prefer reading on the screen to reading a printed page. Yet it is not enough to influence my decision. Simple economics and conservation, nothing more.
Rob Santa
Hopelessly Addicted Writer of Speculative Fiction
and CEO of Ricasso Press |
| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/23/2008 9:02 PM | | If I recall correctly from Gardner Dozois figures in 2005 RoF had some 16,500 subscribers and about 6,500 in newstands. |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/24/2008 6:31 AM |
Jordan Lapp said...Lol.... Jaqhama, I KNEW you'd make that connection, and I tried to phrase my comment so that you wouldn't.... but the stereotype is so prevalent I don't blame you. I simply meant that the market is smaller because "bikers that write" is a smaller subset of professional writers than the set of "writers of fiction". That "eloquent and educated" was my attempt to not cause offence... but it appears to have had the opposite effect. I'd love to buy a bike myself, but I like in Vancouver, and therefore have like 10 sunny days a year in which to enjoy it. What is the point that I've missed? Editors should be nicer when someone writes an abrasive e-mail?
I knew what you meant Jordan.
I never take offense on internet forums or in chat rooms. The first rule of either is 'If you can't chill, don't chat.'
A quick change of subject...there are plenty of guys and gals who ride in Vancouver.
You may be surprised.
I recommend the adventure bike forum because I think you will find that the kind of riding they do is more in line with the conditions one might expect in a cooler and damper climate.
The point: I thought their no email subs for international writers is doing those international writers a dis-service...and was prepared to say so.
I'm sure many disagree with the policy but are not prepared to say so because they fear being ostracized by the magazine in question or indeed other SF&F magazines.
As I've already mentioned that doesn't bother me.
I'm impressed Douglas replied to me. Much respect to him for that.
This little castle that some editors have built up for themselves...The 'don't ever argue with the editor' means nothing to me.
Disagreeing and arguing are not perhaps the same thing.
I see on Douglas' blog that he has insinuated one of us may be a jerk...I also see he has produced a list of ten things that he thinks might include my reasons or attitude for questioning the editorial policy.
(And aren't some of the responses insightful?)
You will note that in my original post here I did not even mention whom I had made discourse with.
You will also note I have not insulted or insinuated that Douglas is anything but a person whose editorial policy I disagreed with.
I haven't attacked Douglas personally...just the magazine's intractable no email subs attitude.
I'm sure Douglas is a wonderful chap.
I've had no reason to make insinuations or snide insults regarding him.
The comments on the blog do amuse me however. I like how some have attempted to fit me into a niche that suits their own viewpoints.
I think I'll not write more about this now...I'm sure everyone understands my point of view and the reason I sent my email questioning and deriding the no email subs policy.
If I disagree with another editor/magazine's policy then I'll doubtless say so again.
If people/writers don't speak up when they see something they believe is not right...how will things change in the future?
As an example: There is another popular SSF paper magazine that also states they do not accept email submissions...yet when I emailed them and explained my thoughts...and mentioned emailing a couple of pages for a perusal...with the full paper manuscipt to follow later if they liked the writing...they accepted the idea and were quite happy to so.
Not intractable you see. Open to new suggestions that benefit both the magazine and the writer.
Happy trails: Jaq.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 4/24/2008 9:52 AM | <American arrogance>
So what if a magazine is losing out on potential authors from a country that has fewer people than Texas?
If a writer down there really stands out, they'll get published by that SF/F magazine the Aborigines put out, and eventually come to the attention of the big magazines where maybe it can be reprinted.
</American arrogance> |
| Posted By : Gustavo - 4/24/2008 11:45 AM | As I've pointed out, my living comes not from the writing thing but from the day job, so the difference between a market paying 1 ct / wd vs. 5 isn't really going to make much difference to me. So the markets not accepting email will receive fewer of my subs - I will still send them some, when I get to Argentina (as someone pointed out earlier, the postal system in Mexico is a nightmare of Mexican proportions), but not many.
I'll take Jordan's 1000 subscribers, 9K unique hits and painlless sub process over going to the post office and hoping they have IRCs any day (not to mention the llaag between sub aand response times, etc.).
What those markets (I'm not referring to any in particular) really mean is that they get 99% of the stories they usse from authors they already know - either commissioned or on spec, and only chose a tiny number of stories from the slush, so keeping the really pile down is actually more important than being modern. So why don't they just close the slush altogether? Easy: every single reader they have is either a writer or a potential writer. If they close the open-call subs, they lose their whole audience - and disappear. Might sound cynical, but business is business.
Want to be famous? Write a novel. Short SF is onlly for those who write for pleasure - and in those cases it shouldn't really matter if some of the major markets have strange policies.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/24/2008 1:47 PM | | Interesting info regarding slush acceptances and contributors known to the editor on Slushmaster's latest blog posting:
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : DAWaverly - 4/24/2008 3:06 PM | Interesting stats. Thanks for the link RHFay.
I decided to crunch some numbers. The 99% hyperbole Gustavo uses does not stand muster only because almost 7% of submissions get an automatic pass up the ladder at RoF. Stories from this 7% represents over 74% of those stories published. Of the remaining 93% not given an automatic pass, less than one half of 1% saw publication. This .5% does, however, represent slightly less than 26% of the stories published overall. This is possible because slightly over 17% of those that got an automatic pass failed to see publication. Still, that failure rate of 17% is much better odds than the failure rate of 99.5% that non-automatic pass submissions suffer under. Gustavo is correct in spirit I would say.
Correction: The reject rate for automatic passes is almost 83%, the 17% is acceptances. (correction posted 25 Apr 2008)
And just to be a complete nerd about this, 98.5% of all submissions to RoF get rejected according to the provided stats. Duotrope reports a 97.1% reject rate with a 1% withdrawal rate.
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction |
| Posted By : Firlefanz - 4/24/2008 5:23 PM | Jaqhama, I can relate.
For me, it costs more than 10 Euro to send one manuscript to the US. I managed to lay my hands on some US stamps (thanks, Nathaniel!), otherwise I'd have to add another 2.50 Euro for the IRC. At the current conversion rate, at a guess this is comparable to 15-17 US dollar.
That's why I rarely submit to magazines that insist on paper submissions. It's that simple. Of course, I'm not a stellar author, either, so chances are very low I'd get in, anyway. Right now, I'd rather spend that money playing the lottery -- the odds are probably comparable if Deven's calculation hits near the truth.
*shrugs*
- Call me Firle.
Hannah Steenbock
Mystical Adventures
Sphaira
"Die arische Frau" in Pandaimonion - Die Formel des Lebens
"Der Weg nach Eridani" in Earth Rocks 3/2007 (pdf)
"Minkus, the Masterful Magic-Mender" in - AlienSkin Magazine, Featured Fiction |
| Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 4/25/2008 10:26 AM | Seems like this thread is being watched, so if anyone's got some sucking-up to do to RoF, this is the place for it. 
Um...their covers are very shiny. |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 4/25/2008 11:54 AM | I really liked that David Cherry cover of an angel in blue jeans from way back in the mid/late 1990's...
I'd post my reply directly to the blog in question but the owner does not allow OpenID or Anonymous posts, and I am not going to create a LiveJournal account just to reply. Hopefully he is still monitoring over here. It would be a great addition to our forum if he joined SFReader forums and responded directly.
My math was questioned in the latest blog entry by slushmaster Douglas of RoF. Above (in the SFReader Forum post), I reported that slightly more than 17% of automatic passes (through slush) at RoF are rejected. I obtained my numbers via a link provided by Douglas himself--follow the link RHFey provided above, then click on the "stats" link in the slushmaster's post.
First, the data from the slushmaster's stats post:
3) Total # of Automatic Passes: 151
6) Total # of Automatic Passes Accepted for Publication: 26 (uh, oh!! I see the problem!)
Now, the math:
26/151=0.17218
This is slightly over 17% accepted for publication. I got the math correct. The attribution was wrong. :-/
(151-26)/151=0.82781
This is almost an 83% reject rate for automatic passes. Which is still much more desirable than the 99.5% reject rate for non-automatic passes.
I screwed up. My apologies for getting it wrong, and if anyone here has an LJ account, please feel free to post this on the slushmaster's blog post about the 17% being wrong. (Jordan?)
One other thing. Several of the comments to his posts are quite disparaging. It would seem that I and others here are held in animosity without anyone bothering to get to know us. Shame. I am a nice guy, or so I am told.
For the record, I have not yet submitted to RoF only because I have not yet written anything that fits that market. When I do, I will submit. But, then, I have a USA postal address.
I am not likely to submit to Interzone (UK SF magazine) because of similar postal cost reasons. They do however appear to have email submission "windows" from time to time, and they also accept email proposals, which is exactly what Jaqhama was asking RoF about.
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction |
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/25/2008 12:00 PM |
H.P. Lovesauce said...
Seems like this thread is being watched...
Yes it is, or was anyway. There has been some discussion about this and the issue of authors' replies to rejections on Live Journal. It makes for interesting reading, especially for any up-and-coming writer.
This is a good example of why you should take care what you say in public. Saying something in forums or blogs is saying something in public. Don't assume that only fellow forumites or bloggers are reading what you post. Don't assume no one outside of your group is paying attention, because maybe they are.
This isn't necessarily directed at anyone here specifically (I know Jaqhama has stated that he doesn't care), but just a general observation.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/25/2008 12:08 PM |
DAWaverly said...
One other thing. Several of the comments to his posts are quite disparaging. It would seem that I and others here are held in animosity without anyone bothering to get to know us. .. That's why first impressions are so important.
That's why acting in a professional manner is so important. (Even if you are doing this as a "hobby" and not as a "profession" is still no excuse to act in any way other than a professional manner. Yes, how you present yourself does matter.)
That's why watching what you say in public is important.
It's very easy to get off on the wrong foot with someone. It's often much harder to then convince them that you are really a "nice guy". It might not be fair, but hey, life's not fair.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/25/2008 1:07 PM | | I went to look at the thread at RoF and they have a poll on submission strategies (do you submit to e-mail markets first? You sub to the best market first, regardless of their submission policies?) so if you have a Livejournal account you may want to vote and leave your comments. |
| Posted By : Gustavo - 4/25/2008 3:03 PM | Wow, my first (unintentional) internet firestorm... Ooooh!
Actually Deven, they were hitting me, not you. You went after it in a analytical way. You might have misread the facts and swapped the 17 and the 83, but this is not what they were talking about. I think the problem was my 99% - which looks pulled out of the air, and admittedly was - as you say, trying to make a point in spirit (never aimed at RoF in particular, but, as you point out, you never know who's reading or might feel singled out, despite what it actually SAYS in the post).
They also seemed to take exception to my phrase "people they know". This was not meant to be "friends of the house" but authors they'd heard of and whose work merited an automatic pass - I DID specify "on spec" (meaning people who had simply sent their work into the slushpile, but even this simple comment, precisely used - the word "either" before it seems like a dead giveaway - seems to have caused some confusion). It was never implied that they play favorites, but that, as your name recognition increases, it is possible to bypass the snailmail slush at some markets as they actually trust your email and don't think you're a spammer or trying to spread viruses. Other markets are rigid and don't allow this (source: personal experience and you can also see Ralan.com for markets that specifically allow email subs only from people "on the list"). Also, I never said they accepted everything sent by the people they know - also something they imply I said.
While I'll take the heat for the 99% - again, correct more in spirit than in fact, it seems, I won't take the heat for things I didn't say. I didn't say there was an "old boys" system in place, and I didn't say any publication accepts everything sent in by people they know. I also, very empathically didn't say that the work from know authors was comissioned. I just made the point that you would have a better chance of bypassing the traditional slush if the editors are aware of the quality of your work - and I absolutely didn't say this was wrong. I've benefitted from this before, and feel that it's a good thing for editors to favor authors whose work they respect and whose work brings in more readers - that's just good business sense. If the stories are equal, the author with the better track record wins. Period. And no complaints are forthcoming.
Maybe what happens is that slush readers and editors in general are so sick of authors saying the things I DIDN'T say that they just assume that that is what's happening. To which I say: oh, well, you can't please everyone all the time - it's a free world, and they can assume whatever they want! For what I did say, I will take the rap, and will only specify that, in the very particular case of RoF, it's quite clear that my number was off - sorry about that.
Just one last item: I want to thank the commenter who said that these facts come out people's nether regions. A quaint, if graphic, description. I guess, when using exaggeration to make a point, I should avoid using exaggeration to make a point. My lower intestinal tract will, presumably, be thankful. The presence of this last guy and his ilk is the reason I won't be posting a reply to the original LJ - I prefer to keep it civilized, even when if / when I'm wrong / somebody else is wrong.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
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| Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 4/25/2008 3:07 PM |
DAWaverly said...
3) Total # of Automatic Passes: 151
6) Total # of Automatic Passes Accepted for Publication: 26 (uh, oh!! I see the problem!)
Now, the math:
26/151=0.17218
This is slightly over 17% accepted for publication. I got the math correct. The attribution was wrong. :-/
(151-26)/151=0.82781
This is almost an 83% reject rate for automatic passes. Which is still much more desirable than the 99.5% reject rate for non-automatic passes.
No way am I ever making change for Deven. I'd end up with less money than I had.  |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 4/25/2008 3:16 PM | My personal thoughts are that as a writer the last thing you should be doing is taking an editor to task.
It's their magazine and their policies. If you don't like it, then bite your tongue and move on.
-- Paul McNamee
My Writings |
| Posted By : erazmus - 4/25/2008 3:26 PM | Pity I don'yt have a Live Journal account, so I won't be replying directly.
And I've always assumed the things we talk about here were occasionally noticed elsewhere. Occasionally I have my facts wrong and every now and then I have an inflamitory opinion, but I'm not going to protest that I'm really a nice guy. I'm an egotistical, self-centered SOB, elsewise I'd not deprive my family of attention so I could sit at a keyboard six hours a day writing.
I don't go round picking fights with A.E.s either. I sub electronic first but the best markets, best paying anyway, are all e-sub markets right now. I mail subs occasionally but haven't in a long while, except to WotF. When I was eligable for WotF I mailed subs to it, other than that I think my last mailed submissions were to MZB's fantasy (rejections) and Turn the Other Chick anthology (sale). So it has been a while and I should do more of it. I mailed a few subs to RoF, but it was before the current A.E.'s tenure.
Looking on the Blog's response thread I see a lot of writers are in the same boat that I'm in, subbing electronically first or, in a couple of cases, second behind a favored market (which is always F&SF, who has a turn around time shorter than most e-sub markets.) Not that turn around time seems to be the deciding factor. Its money, plain and simple.
Short fiction won't be paying for my house, but I am, and I'm not made of money. I'm fine with my writing being a serious sort of hobby for now, but I can't let it become the sort of hobby I can't afford. I made one hundred submissions last year (huh, I didn't realize it turned out to be such a nice, round number). That means that I'd have spent a couple of hundred dollars submitting by mail. Much more of my time would have gone in to standing in line at the Post Awful as well. By itself that's half a house payment. Postal rates have gone up . . .how many times in the last twelve months? I don't know because we don't even mail our _bills_ out anymore. I mail letters to my mum, who never checks her e-mail account, and thats it.
I'll mail my subs when its the right thing to do, but generally I'll save my coin so I can buy copies of the magazines I submit too. (If I did everything the way some places want me too, I'd spend a couple of hundred dollars a year more on postage and a couple of thousand on subscriptions. My way I actually show a profit every year.)
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Pink Plastic Flamingos" in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/m.html
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/25/2008 3:40 PM | That's a valid point, Mike, so I added it to the comments at Monstrous Musings.
Money spent on postage could be better spent... buying the magazine.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/25/2008 4:02 PM | Edit: If someone wants to post this at the LJ Journal feel free.
I'm one of the international sub people, who are probably the ones that are getting more affected by the postal-sub only. Luckily, I live in Canada. But I am from Mexico so I know how hard (and impossible sometimes, they didn't sell IRCS in Mexico) it can be to get IRCs or stamps. If the postal system in your country is inefficient your manuscript could never reach its destination. And it can be very costly.
Even in Canada, where the postal system is good and the cost of mailing something to markets in the US isn't insane, you can spend some hefty dollars sending a manuscript. So I tend to limit my postal subs.
For international writers it would be very kind of the editors to either have an e-mail option for international writers (like Zahir does) or a special e-mail period (like Interzone). Another option, although still costly for the writer but perhaps easier and a tiny bit cheaper, would be to allow international writers to submit their manuscript without a SASE and reply to them by e-mail on their acceptance or rejection. That way we don't have to hunt for stamps.
Silvia Moreno-Garcia |
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/25/2008 4:04 PM |
erazmus said...
...I'm an egotistical, self-centered SOB...
Let's face it - writers are a bit of a egotistical and self-centered lot. It's part of a writer's nature.
As for postal submissions and number of submissions - I sent out about 275 different submissions between March 21, 2007 and March 21, 2008 (yeah, I was busy). Since most were speculative poetry submissions, the cost to send these via snail mail would have far outweighed any monetary gain from any acceptances, especially since it can take several submissions before a piece is accepted. And let's face it, most publications publishing spec poetry take e-subs, so I wasn't ruling out more than a handful of markets.
Does my writing pay the bills? No. Does it make sense to me to spend much more money actually sending my stuff out than I could ever make getting it published? Again, no. Would I completely rule out snail mail subs for stories? Yet again, no. I actually did send one story to the Writers of the Future contest, so I have been known to mail submissions. It's just not what I would do as a rule.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Gustavo - 4/25/2008 6:36 PM | Have to second Silvia's thoughts: having lived in Mexico for the past eight months, my ONLY option was submitting to email markets or those like WotF that do not require SASE.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/26/2008 12:35 AM | Having perused 'that' blog site for the last few days I see that almost all of the reply posters have made the assumption that I'm a novice writer who was feeling some angst because my 'best story ever written' wasn't going to be accepted by the magazine.
That of course was not the case. 
My emails to Douglas were entirely about the no email subs stance. I did make mention that they may have missed out on some superb stories by international writers. But I didn't allude that my story was superb. I did mention the other publications I've been accepted by or continue to write for.
On the subject of the internet being a very public domain and one should think carefully about what one posts up, because the content can be read by and then be re-posted and travel all around cyberspace...oh yes I'm well aware of that.
An article I wrote a couple of years ago for an American motorcycle webzine has been re-posted on several international bike forums and webzines...often without any credit to myself or the bike 'zine.
It was about how to keep warm (or survive) long periods of biking in very cold weather conditions.
It's now on a Canadian bike site and some others in Europe.
I was a little annoyed at first...but then, discussing it with the guys at the original bike 'zine, we reached the conclusion that if what I had written would keep some other riders alive and well...then maybe it wasn't that important that we weren't being credited for the writing and publication of the article.
I also continue to get emails from people wanting to contact Elena Filatova for interviews.
This on the strength of the one interview I did with her, published in another bike webzine.
So yeah...if you don't want the whole world to read anything you've written...and then possibly even post it somewhere else...best not to post it up anywhere on the internet at all.
I knew there was a good chance that my thread here would be read by people who probably had some connection to ROF.
I didn't roll into town on the last stagecoach. 
As far as percentages for being published by any magazine of webzine or website go...hmmm...at the end of the day I always assumed that the stories that the editor's liked best would be the ones accepted.
Not the BEST stories...the stories the editor(s) liked the BEST.
Best would obviously be a personel choice.
Someone also noted that I've argued with editors of biker and military publications and that it seems unprofessional. That's incorrect. The difference is those guys don't have egos so large that they feel they can't be disagreed with. They're cool people. If they are doing something that a reader or a writer feels is wrong or can be done better...then they want to know. Harsh language is predominant in both cultures...so if the occassional F word gets thrown around, no one really cares. It is what it is.
Note: I did NOT use any bad language when writing to Douglas, or anyone at a SFF publication, because I understand it's not part of your culture.
Cheers: Jaq.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/26/2008 2:09 AM |
Jaqhama said...
Someone also noted that I've argued with editors of biker and military publications and that it seems unprofessional. That's incorrect...
I was raised with the belief that arguing often gets you nowhere in the professional world. In most "professional" situations (and not necessarily just the spec publishing world) , it's not really that appropriate. And you really have to pick your fights with care, and know when it's just not worth it. (And discussion and argument are often two different things. And sometimes you can appear argumentative even when you don't really mean to.)
And I have found this to be mostly true in my previous professional life. Some people actually do respond to argument, while others just tune it out. It's not always an effective means of getting through to people, especially people "with power" or "position" (like editors - let's face it, they are the ones making the decision whether or not to accept your work).
Just my own observations based on my personal experiences, most of it actually outside the realm of publication.
I've spent a bit of time on those blogs. I tried to point out that the initial argument had nothing to do with a rejection, just so others would know the details. It seems that the discussion has actually grown beyond the initial flap over snail mail subs and has now encompassed writer responses to editors in general.
And I do think stressing the fact that forum postings are viewable by the public-at-large is something that anyone and everyone that posts in forums should be made aware of. Remember, up-and-coming writers may be reading these threads as well as editors. And perhaps some of these writers would like a shot at getting into Realms of Fantasy or some of the other "big names" out there. This advice is just as much for them as it is for those already embroiled in this discussion.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/26/2008 2:38 AM |
Jaqhama said...
Harsh language is predominant in both cultures...so if the occassional F word gets thrown around, no one really cares. It is what it is...
Different worlds. I swear like a sailor when I hurt myself (don't ask). I sometimes swear at the telly when I see something that makes me really mad (which seems to happen a lot lately). However, I can't imagine ever swearing in the lab (where I worked before becoming a home-school dad), or during home-school, or when dealing with editors.
I know you said you didn't use bad language when writing to Doug. I'm just commenting on our apparent differences in attitude and approach, which was probably obvious from my previous post anyway.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/26/2008 2:43 AM | A final note - I hope you don't get the impression that I think arguing is always wrong. There are instances when it's obviously necessary to argue. I can be a tiger when riled. However, I do think that it's inappropriate in certain professional situations.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/26/2008 4:56 AM |
RHFay said...A final note - I hope you don't get the impression that I think arguing is always wrong. There are instances when it's obviously necessary to argue. I can be a tiger when riled. However, I do think that it's inappropriate in certain professional situations.
It's not a probelm mate.
Like I said...I don't get upset by internet postings or what folks say in chat rooms.
A lot of you have, I'm afraid, missed the point of my emailing ROF.
I'll say it again...I did it because I figured few others would. I knew there was a high probability that it wouldn't get me anywhere.
That's it right there.
They could change their policy to benefit overseas writers if they really wanted to.
But it's their magazine...and I've had my say...so let them do what they want.
Excuse me while I go mountain biking...indian summer day here, too good to miss out on.
Laterz: Jaq.
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/26/2008 5:30 AM | Take note that this thread has had almost a thousand views in less than a week.
So it has certainly created enough interest and hopefully made people think about the main issue.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/26/2008 11:17 AM | You know what's funny? Flashing Swords accepts both email subs and paper.
I have yet to get even one paper submission. I haven't even gotten a query about how to send in a paper submission. Not that I'm complaining, I really prefer email.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
Managing Editor of Flashing Swords
Visit my art gallery on art wanted
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/26/2008 11:18 AM |
Jaqhama said...Take note that this thread has had almost a thousand views in less than a week. So it has certainly created enough interest and hopefully made people think about the main issue.
Yes indeed.
I might not necessarily agree with the idea of arguing with editors, but I agree that a discussion about this issue is definitely a good thing. This incident has opened up a dialogue about the issue of e-subs, especially for international contributors. Maybe it will change some opinions and policies, or maybe not. Time will tell.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/28/2008 8:15 AM | | I see that the no email subs policy has been polled and international submitters asked for their opinions over at Douglas's blog site.
That's all good stuff. Of course it had nothing to do with my thread here, as I'm sure we're
all aware.
I'm amazed at the number of people here and at the blog site that have claimed they would never argue or complain about a magazine's policy.
Listen up people...seldom in the history of the world has anything ever changed until people started to argue and complain about it. Apart from deliberate policy it's quite possible someone may not even be aware of how their policy affects others until someone argues/disagrees or complains about it.
Never be afraid to point out/disagree/argue or complain about anything you feel is not correct.
I'm not just talking about a magazine's policies here; I'm talking about anything that you believe is not right.
I'm not suggesting you should all be as blunt as I quite often am. That's just me.
But for goodness sakes don't just keep quiet about something you feel is A: Not right. B: Can or could be changed. (Preferably for the benefit of all.)
My thought on the no email subs policy has not changed.
I think accepting up to the first ten pages via email is a good idea for international submitters.
I mean if you don't like the story by page ten then it's highly likely you aren't going to like the story by page twenty...thirty...etc.
If the first ten pages do interest an editor...then he/she can request the full story be sent as paper via normal mail.
That's for a short magazine style story, not for a complete novel. Obviously a novel may not even have begun to develop by even page fifty. I guess in that case the whole manuscrpit should be allowed to be emailed and if the publisher likes it the paper manuscript can then be mailed later.
(I shook my head at the idea of using re-cycled paper for a manuscript, if you're worried about how many trees are being destroyed...Re-cycled paper generally costs more than normal paper, so the expense just went up further.  )
Ah well...this kind of debate is a good thing. It gets thoughts and ideas out into the open.
I'm glad I started this thread here. It's made a lot of people sit up and take notice.
Will anything change?
I don't know...but...If no one is prepared to ever complain about it...???
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