The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=9&m=74768
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/29/2008 10:10 AM | RANT ON
This irritates me.
I know it's the standard, but it still irritates me.
when I accept a story for FS, I specifically ask the author to send me a copy of their manuscript with all special formatting and italics that they wish to use in place.
What do I get?
Manuscripts with underlines.
Which means I'm the one that has to go through and change all those underlines to italics.
It also means I have to guess if the author wanted italics there ir if they, in fact, wanted an underline there.
Which annoys me.
/RANT OFF |


| Posted By : RHFay - 3/29/2008 12:04 PM |
The real problem, at least from the perspective of a contributor, is that the standard isn't really very standard. Each publication seems to follow their own version or modification of the "standard manuscript formatting".
And what about people who were subbing stuff before the days of e-subs? I actually sent a handful of mainstream poems and a fantasy story or two out, with no real success, in the early to mid nineties. They were all sent via "snail mail" back when that was the only real option. (I didn't even have an up-to-date computer back then.) They were all formatted in "standard manuscript formatting", at least as it was laid out in the then-current Writer's Market (or guide, or whatever it was called). Today the desired formatting may be a bit different, especially when it comes to on-line publications or electronic submissions. I've even noticed some subtle differences between what was in my old Writer's Market book, what was in a much more recent edition, and what I've seen posted on-line as the standard manuscript format.
It's actually taken me a bit to adjust to the formatting found on certain on-line publications, and I still have a tendency to do such things as put two spaces after my periods. I've seen at least one on-line publication that wants one space after periods. Underlining instead of italics was indeed the standard for manuscript formatting, but I have seen a change in that. Some editors still want underlining for italics, while others want italics formatted as italics.
The best you can do is state very clearly what formatting you want, especially if it difers from the established standard, and perhaps even give examples of the things that might not be clear. Of course, expect there will be at least some material submitted in a different format than you desire.
And I agree with Mike about guidelines - after you've looked at about a hundred different guidelines, they do all seem to blur together. It gets difficult to keep straight which publication wants what formatting. That's why I always double-check the guidelines as I'm sending submissions. Of course, we're all human, and we all make mistakes.
A final note - keep in mind that much of this standard was developed in a time when most writers typed their manuscripts. You couldn't do italics as easily fifteen or twenty years ago as you can today. With most typewriters, it wasn't even an option. The objective of the standard seems to be to make the manuscript appear typed, and have a fairly consistent look, even with the introduction of efficient word processors and fancy fonts. Old habits (and preferences) die hard.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/29/2008 12:53 PM | I want one space after periods too. But that's easy for me to fix with word. Global search and replace. Underlining to italics... if word has a global replace function for that, I haven't found it yet.
>The best you can do is state very clearly what formatting you want
When sending an accpetance, I say
QUOTE Please send me a copy of your story as a word .doc or .rtf file with all special formating and italics where you want them. UNQUOTE
How much more specific and clear can I be?
That's not in my writer's guidelines. I don't care how subs come in as long as I can read them. Written in crayon on toilet paper is probably not real readable but other than that, I don't care.
The manuscript I'm going to do line edits on? The one I'm going to put into the magazine? That one I care about. So my instructions for format are in my acceptance email. Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
Managing Editor of Flashing Swords
Visit my art gallery on art wanted All my books in print |

| Posted By : RHFay - 3/29/2008 1:31 PM | Ah-ha! That may be where the problem lies.
Your request upon acceptance, while seemingly clear enough, may be open to interpretation, especially when considering how engrained "standard manuscript format" may be to those who have done this for a while. Be specific about your desired format, state that you want italics done as italics, not underlined.
Yeah, it might seem like you're leading people by the hand, but sometimes that's what you have to do if you want something a certain way. Assume that anything contrary to the standard must be explained. Remember that it's not easy to teach an old dog new tricks.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Bill Ward - 3/29/2008 1:41 PM | Ctl-A, click 'underline' twice: all gone. That's all there is to it.
No writer expects underlining to be left in, or uses it because he wants underlining. There's no ambiguity here. billwardwriter.com |

| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/29/2008 2:04 PM | Bill Ward said...
No writer uses it because he wants underlining.
I do. |

| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/29/2008 2:05 PM | Bill Ward said... Ctl-A, click 'underline' twice: all gone. That's all there is to it.
And then to replace with italics? |


| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/29/2008 2:45 PM | erazmus said... I think you have to italisize fiirst. Mike
Yeah, see? And cntrl-A just selects the entire docment, not all the words that are underlined in the document.
If someone can tell me how to select all the underlined words, then do a global replace with italics, I'll send them a t-shirt with the Flashing Swords log on it. |

| Posted By : C.L. - 3/29/2008 3:13 PM | |
In Word click the Replace button. Click more. With 'find what' selected go down to Format and click font. Underline style= what ever it is. Then select 'replace with', format, font. This time under font style select Italic, underline style none. Replace all.
All done! I hope that was understandable!
Icon and Art by Selina Fenech www.selinafenech.com |

| Posted By : Jared Evers - 3/29/2008 3:53 PM | |
I tend to use underscores around the words I want to italicize. Then, when I send to a market, I just do a Find for a single underscore and italicize/underline/etc. that word while taking out the underscores. Then I save the document as a different name so I still have the original with the underscores. I tend to have a Master copy of every story, which I then make copies of and alter for each market.
But if guidelines say to do something, I make every effort to do it. There's enough competition out there as it is, and the fewer things in my story that irritate the editor, the better. |

| Posted By : Bill Ward - 3/29/2008 3:57 PM | I'll try that CL.
My method, of course, only works if they do both italics and underlining, which is what I do,...so clearly that's limited and I wasn't thinking about people that don't use italics at all. My mistake, I realize it is harder to deal with than my solution.
And, CW, you use underlining in fiction? For what? I'll bet you 9,999 times out of 10,000 the underlining you get in a manuscript is not something the writer wants to see in the final.
I think you should clearly state in the guidelines and again in the acceptance that you want underlining replaced with italics...it's such a given that no one thinks twice about doing it themselves when they are told to have their formatting arranged as they like it--they'd no more worry about taking underling out than they would taking their headers or address off the manuscript, everyone assumes editors will do it, because editors always do.
Knowing you find them a hassle I take them out when sending to you, I think if you make it clear in guidelines and acceptance, writers will oblige. Most writers probably don't like using underlining anyway--personally, I hate it. billwardwriter.com |


| Posted By : UnclePete - 3/29/2008 6:59 PM | C.L. said...In Word click the Replace button. Click more. With 'find what' selected go down to Format and click font. Underline style= what ever it is. Then select 'replace with', format, font. This time under font style select Italic, underline style none. Replace all. All done! VIEW IMAGE I hope that was understandable!
Beat me to it. Yep, do this.  ____________ "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson www.creativeguypublishing.com |

| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 3/30/2008 1:11 AM | yeah, C.L. beat me, too.
And Bill, you're an exception then. Other than I. Prior to you saying you used both, I was the only one who did so that I was aware of - and I end up defending it in every critique group I join. So I toss the underlining, if they don't like it.
Cuz I, too, don't like the underlines!
~~~~~~~~~~ Jason M. Waltz Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
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| Posted By : R. L. Copple - 3/30/2008 3:17 AM | If you want to simply this, and you're comfortable inserting Macros into Word, use the following:
Sub UNDERLINEtoITALICSConvert()
With ActiveDocument.Content.Find .ClearFormatting .Font.Underline = True Do While .Execute(FindText:="", Forward:=True, _ Format:=True) = True With .Parent .Font.Underline = False .Font.Italic = True .Move Unit:=wdWord, Count:=1 End With Loop End With
End Sub
Then you simply open the document and run the macro. You can attach the macro to a button too, if you wish, to make it easily accessible, or a shortcut key.
I actually have several such macros that format these things into html codes for putting on our mag's website. I can pretty much format it to our standards with the click of a couple of buttons. For instance, if you wanted the above to make underlined text become html italics formatted:
Sub UNDERLINEtoHTMLConvert()
With ActiveDocument.Content.Find .ClearFormatting .Font.Underline = True Do While .Execute(FindText:="", Forward:=True, _ Format:=True) = True With .Parent .Font.Underline = False .InsertBefore "<i>" .InsertAfter "</i>" .Move Unit:=wdWord, Count:=1 End With Loop End With End Sub
My standard is to use italics, and then if someone wants it differently, I convert from that.
And, just for comparison, here is the Open Office equivalent, which is much more complex and took some research to find the specific variables needed:
sub UNDERLINEtoHTMLConvert
Dim oDoc As Object Dim oReplace As Object Dim SrchAttributes(0) As New com.sun.star.beans.PropertyValue Dim ReplAttributes(0) As New com.sun.star.beans.PropertyValue
oDoc = ThisComponent oReplace = oDoc.createReplaceDescriptor
REM -- Replace underlining with HTML Italics
'Regular expression. Match any text oReplace.SearchString = ".*" 'Note the & places the found text back oReplace.ReplaceString = "<i>&</i>" oReplace.SearchRegularExpression=True 'Use regular expressions oReplace.searchStyles=True 'We want to search styles oReplace.searchAll=True 'Do the entire document
REM This is the attribute to find SrchAttributes(0).Name = "CharUnderline" SrchAttributes(0).Value =com.sun.star.awt.FontUnderline.SINGLE
REM This is the attribute to replace it with ReplAttributes(0).Name = "CharWeight" ReplAttributes(0).Value =com.sun.star.awt.FontWeight.NORMAL
REM Set the attributes in the replace descriptor oReplace.SetSearchAttributes(SrchAttributes()) oReplace.SetReplaceAttributes(ReplAttributes())
REM Now do the work! oDoc.replaceAll(oReplace)
end sub
I have a lot more where that came from! :) Like taking out space-tabs, tabbed-tabs, formatted tabs, curly quotes to straight (hard to go the other way though), double-spacing paragraphs while single-spacing lines, or the reverse, changing formats to html or BBCode, etc., etc. Click! Done.
Also, one other note. If your story is going on the web, double spaces between sentences don't matter one bit. They don't show up. Two spaces shows up as one space on the web. Even if you plug in the web space character code twice, it will come out as one space. But, converting to one space is pretty easy. If you need to preserve spaced tabs, you'll need to convert them into something else first, like a find-replace on five spaces converted to 5 *s. Then do a find replace on 2 spaces to be replaced by one space. Then if you did the tab conversion, you'll need to convert that back from five *s to five spaces. R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com www.raygunradio.com www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com |


| Posted By : R. L. Copple - 3/30/2008 3:49 AM | In Word:
Tools, Macro, Visual Basic Editor
In the left window, you'll see a tree structure. At the top is "Normal," the default template for Word. Under that you will see a folder for "Modules." Under that you are likely to see some modules already in place. If not, right-click on the "Modules" folder, select "Insert" and then "Module." Then click on the new module, rename it if you wish. Click in the open window and paste the above macro(s) in there. Click the save button in the tool bar. Close the Visual Basic window.
Then to use it in Word, go to: Tools, Macro, and Macros... (Short cut key is Alt-F8)
Select the Macro and click "Run" and away it goes.
Use the help to learn how to attach a macro to a toolbar button or assign a shortcut key to it. R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com www.raygunradio.com www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com |


| Posted By : C.L. - 3/30/2008 8:27 AM | You have to select underline style none the second time you go to that screen. Icon and Art by Selina Fenech www.selinafenech.com |



| Posted By : C.L. - 3/30/2008 4:45 PM |
crystalwizard said...
I did that though, several times :(
Odd.
Congrats, R.L Copple!
Icon and Art by Selina Fenech www.selinafenech.com |

| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 3/30/2008 5:38 PM | if it's any consolation C.L., I've been doing it the way you described for years. Macros and I don't seem to like each other much, so I'll just cotinue doing it this way, too.
~~~~~~~~~~ Jason M. Waltz Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
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| Posted By : C.L. - 3/30/2008 6:17 PM | Maybe a different type of Word? But she found something that works and that's the main thing. Icon and Art by Selina Fenech www.selinafenech.com |

| Posted By : R. L. Copple - 3/31/2008 4:49 AM | For what it's worth, I used CL's manual method, and it worked for me. Of course, once you have the macro in there, it is faster to use it than to do all the settings each time, but her method works just as well.
I ran a test with some underlined words. Ctrl-H to pop up the replace text window. Put the cursor in the find field, clicked "More" and then the "Format" button and then "Fonts." In the Underline drop down list, selected the first thin underline style shown. Ok'ed out of that. Clicked in the "Replace with" field, "Format" button, "Fonts" and then clicked the drop down list to make sure "None" was selected for Underlines, then clicked on the Italic selection in the box above that, and OK'ed that window closed. Then hit "Replace all" and the three underlined text I had turned into italics.
Not sure why that didn't work for you Crystal, maybe a setting issue. But glad the macro worked, at least! R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com www.raygunradio.com www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com |

| Posted By : Firlefanz - 3/31/2008 5:23 AM | Thanks for this thread, and most of all, thanks for that OO macro. I'll probably hunt it down the next time I need to use it.
I use a lot of italics in my stories, and I write it in italics. I spent half an hour last week converting everything from italics to underlined for one magazine, cursing all the time.
Knowing I won't have to do that again is a wonderful feeling!  - Call me Firle.
Hannah Steenbock
Mystical Adventures Sphaira
"Die arische Frau" in Pandaimonion - Die Formel des Lebens "Der Weg nach Eridani" in Earth Rocks 3/2007 (pdf) |

| Posted By : R. L. Copple - 4/2/2008 4:29 AM | All right. I did the work and uploaded the file to my web site. I'll probably put up a more offical page in the near future, but for everyone here, download this Word Doc file, open it up and follow the instructions. If you open it up, read and follow the instructions for installing them. If your security is set high, it might warn you that there are macros in there. And yes, there are. One's you'll most likely want.
Probably works best to right-click it and select the "save as" function, and remember where you put it!
Macros Word Document
Hopefully they should be self-explanitory. Hope everyone is benefited by them. Keep my name in the macros if you edit them, is all I ask. You're free to modify them as you like. R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com www.raygunradio.com www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com |

| Posted By : anna - 4/2/2008 9:04 AM | Okay. You people all make me feel woefully inadequate......
I'd really hate to take the time away from writing to pursue a degree in computer programming. Most of what was said here, while intended to be politely helpful, is an unknown foreign language to some of us - particularly those who learned to type on a monster MANUAL Underwood. It took me quite some time just to train my fingers not to strike so hard as to cause a single letter to fill an entire line of text!
I am indeed open to trying to learn, but remember when you didn't know how to tie your shoes and someone else said it's EASY and then zipped through the process leaving you feeling rather stupid because you couldn't grasp it that fast?
Sometimes I would rather sub markets that take only hard copy because at least I know what it will look like when it arrives in the slush reader's hands. (unless someone spills coffee on it ;)
I do thank Crystal Wizard as she has tried several times to help me out. I just wish I'd read this thread before manually re-formatting a 7K story! Switching from double to single space I knew how to do. Beyond that removing indents, extra line between paragraphs and worst of all, changing to a single space after periods was all by hand. I won't even think of how long it took and I'm still paranoid that I missed a few.
Now I've been asked by an editor who requires text in the body of an e-mail to re-sub because she has my cover letter followed by story title and by-line but no text. I checked my "Sent Subs" folder and it is all there but when she received it the text was gone. And, not once but twice!
Sometimes I feel like the man in the old Twilight Zone who was attacked by electric mechanical devices. I just keep my fingers crossed that as long as I do my best to follow guidelines that the editor can be generous and allow the story to stand on its own merit. |

| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 4/2/2008 9:12 AM |
R. L. Copple said...All right. I did the work and uploaded the file to my web site. I'll probably put up a more offical page in the near future, but for everyone here, download this Word Doc file, open it up and follow the instructions. If you open it up, read and follow the instructions for installing them. If your security is set high, it might warn you that there are macros in there. And yes, there are. One's you'll most likely want. Probably works best to right-click it and select the "save as" function, and remember where you put it! Macros Word DocumentHopefully they should be self-explanitory. Hope everyone is benefited by them. Keep my name in the macros if you edit them, is all I ask. You're free to modify them as you like.
Hey, much thanks, R.L.!! Macros and I never understood each other, but I'll definitely give these a try. Two things:
1. I'm not really sure what the 'BBC' stands for (I don't think my guess is correct  ), but either way, what if I wanted to do 2 of those things, like italics and blue?
2. It seems I didn't need to do any installing in the organizer - when I did the Alt-F8 and chose organizer, I went the toolbar route - but I didn't select any because I wanted to go re-read your descriptions, so I closed the Macro organizer. After reading the explanations again, I right-clicked in the toolbar area and lo-and-behold, all 3 of your toolbars where already there! I had only planned on adding the editor's one, but I've kept them all for now.
Am I already messing up?
~~~~~~~~~~ Jason M. Waltz Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
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| Posted By : TL Morganfield - 4/2/2008 9:45 AM | That's awesome, RL! Thanks for sharing those. I'll probably use quite a few of them regularly. www.tlmorganfield.com The Feathered Serpent's Nest (Blog)
One World stories:
"Night Bird Soaring" in GUD, issue #3 (forthcoming) "What Makes Us Strong" in Atomjack, November 2007 "The Last Arabian Prince" in Atomjack, November 2006 "Dedication" in Dragons, Knights & Angels, also available in Distant Passages 2.
Sixth Sun Rising stories:
"Ancient Artifacts" in Tales of Moreauvia (forthcoming) "Love, Blood and Octi" in Paradox, October 2007 "The Divine Conquest of Mexico" in Sorcerous Signals, August 2007
Non-series fiction:
"My Sweet Andromache" in Nanobison, (forthcoming) "So Weeps the Thunderbird" in Lilith Unbound, (forthcoming |

| Posted By : R. L. Copple - 4/2/2008 11:21 PM | Anna, I learned to type on a manual too. Don't recall the brand name. 7th grade, class full of manuals, with three cool electric typewriters, which everyone got a turn at some point during the semester! Ohhhhhh! Actually, I still have an old manual one in my garage junk pile, with case. Remington if I recall correctly.
Darkmoor, the only reason to go into the Organizer and move them to the Normal.dot template is so that they will be available for any document you open. If you don't move them, they are only available when you have the MacroDoc file open. Open a different document, and you'll see they aren't there. So, if you want to use them on other documents, you have to move them into the Normal.dot template.
And BBC or BBCode is short-hand for "Bulletin Board Code." Same code used on this board (actually, here it is called "mCode" similar but with some minor differences) and others like PHPForum to do things like:
Spaces added so code won't convert to actually creating italics...so no spaces are in the brackets when you do it:
Make something italics: [ i ]text[ /i ] Or Bold: [ b ]text[ /b ] Or quote someone: [ quote ]text[ /quote ]
I find the BBCode macros especially handy when you want to post a story in standard format onto a forum for a critique. Run the BoldItalicsAll macro and then the one that Doublespaces paragraphs, takes out tabs. Then copy and paste to the forum (but don't save your doc or you'll overwrite your standard format...but if you do, just convert back to singlespaced paragraphs. Going back from BBCode to italics, for instance, is a bit tricker and I've not had time to write that up, so that would be a manual conversion back).
Then when critiquing a story to be posted on-line, it is very easy to mark text in the other document or forum, copy (Ctrl-C), then switch back to the doc you're writing your comments in and hit the BBCodeQuoteSel button and in pops the copied text surrounded by the quote tags. Then when you copy your comments to the forum, it is formatted correctly. I use those all the time.
Enjoy! R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com www.raygunradio.com www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com |
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