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Posted By : MichaelEhart - 1/24/2008 3:31 PM
Not that I miss many opportunites elsewhere. But I do intend to use this forum to rant about writerly things that may not be of great interest in some of the other places I post.
Case in point? I wrote this last night on my blog:
 
...the story did some things that I have been slowly working toward with the stories from the start, stylistic things that I have been groping at and have slowing been able to find.

This might be a good place to discuss those stylistic things. For quite a while, the Fantasy genre has been dominated by Jordan-like Tolkien derivatives, massive tomes of castle drama chunked into 500 page doses. I have no problem with that, because of course for the longest time that has been what sold best, but I think that it also has ghettoized an already fairly isolated genre even further. That people read less is not in question, but the fact that Harry Potter openings had to have security guards and Dan Brown's dreadful piece of hackwork sold more copies in five years than Catcher in the Rye has in 40 tells me that people will still buy books, if you give them a fantasy that they actually want to read.

Now, if I knew the secret to what that actually might be, a lot more than the 80 or so people a week who read this blog would be tuning in. But I do know what I'd like to see, what I have spent money on the last 40+ years of my reading life, and a part of that is what drives me to write what I write, in the fashion that I do.

Fantasy has been dominated by the Brits, with even the most American of writers writing Brit tropes, in imitation of Brit writers. I am an American, and while I love me some Tolkien, I also have a taste for American pulp fiction.

It would be ridiculously pretentious of me to say that I really know what I'm doing here, but what I'm trying to do is write Fantasy in a distinctly American voice, with American sensibilities and expectations. I have some thoughts for myself that may be useful for someone else who may have had that nagging little desire to write something different, but hasn't quite figured out what. Not saying anyone else needs to follow Michael's ideas, but they might give you something to think about.

1. As much as I appreciate the term Sword and Sorcery, I'm not certain it applies anymore. To most people it means bad Conan rip-offs on late night TV and Xena the Warrior Princess. Originally it applied to some pretty gritty stuff, including Howard's original Conan, Lieber's anti-heroes Fafred and the Grey Mouser, and Moorcock's very dark Elric stories. These were not written for kids, they were hard-core pulpy works of sock-you-in-the-eye fiction. I'm not certain what we should be calling it, but it is probably time for a re-branding.

2. With that re-branding should come a re-thinking. The genre came from the pulps. They were adventure stories, some with historical basis, many without. In fact, many were closer to westerns or hard-boiled detective stories than the high fantasy of the multi-volume doorstop type. I had a critic call one of my stories "Castle Noir", which I thought was pretty cool. I am thinking that good heroic fantasy might do well to forget the anglophile Tolkien tropes, character types and the whole idea of "races" and concentrate on mood, character, plot and atmosphere rather than the too-often seen half-elf on a quest to partner up with a dragon-rider and a trusty wood ranger.

3. So for this post, I'm going to call the stuff I have been trying to write "Hard-Boiled Fantasy", because those distinctive American forms of the Hard-Boiled Detective and the film noir feeling of failed moral choice and struggle for redemption has guided some of the best, or at least most enjoyable reading and movie-going I have experienced, from High Noon and Shane to The Maltese Falcon and the Long-Legged Fly.

There will be more of this, as I can work it out. As I said, I am groping toward something here, something that I hope will make what I write better for me as the writer and more interesting and alive to you as the reader. I may be miles off base here, but that problem is self-correcting: if people stop buying my stuff or writing me to tell me they like it, then I will know.

In the mean time, feel free to tell me what YOU think in the comments.
 
I'm not entirely certain that that will be of much interest to a casual fan who is looking for the latest Joe Denfar or Servant of the Manthycore piece, or hoping to catch a reading at their favorite con. But it is a discussion I am interested in having, and this forum will keep me from hijacking someone elses thread with my brain droppings.


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Posted By : Lyn - 1/24/2008 4:46 PM
I know Terry Brooks is known for the high fantasy you describe, but didn't he write another series that, to me at least, looked more "American." I haven't read it, but I think it's Running with the Demon. Is that what you're talking about? Wanting to see more 'contemporary' fantasy set in the real world?


Lyn from ResAliens


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 1/24/2008 5:40 PM
No, there is a lot of urban fantasy and paranormal romance to fill that slot, and some very good stuff is being written, along with the usual trash, of course. Kat Richardson's series is a great example of how good this sort of thing can be..
No, I am talking about the direction S&S or heroic fantasy has gone, instead of following its pulpy roots.
And by American I don't mean set in America, I mean with the style that in nearly every other genre is instantly recognizable as American, that style and energy and rough-edged bite that makes so much of American fiction great.
Note that non-Americans can produce the same style... can't really beat Raymond Chandler, who spent most of his young life in the UK.
Like I said, I am groping here, not really certain of where I am going.


Buy my book!
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Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
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"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : Christopher_Heath - 1/24/2008 8:27 PM
What about simply "Fantasy Noir" for a re-branding? I personally don't have a problem with "Sword and Sorcery", though. Real fantasists get what it's about.


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+ others
 
 
 
 


Posted By : darkbow - 1/24/2008 11:15 PM
Sword Noir?

Or, this might sound goofy, but thinking back to how hardboiled got to be called hardboiled, how about something similar? "Armor plated" fiction?


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Posted By : Nik - 1/25/2008 12:19 AM
Tolkienesque, Lovecraftian, Howardian........Ehartistic?:-)

I'm with you, Michael. Maybe "red-blooded fantasy" would fit the fiction you're describing? To me, it evokes the energy and adventure and grittiness you mention. I'm afraid "hard-boiled" would make people think of eggs.

But, like Christopher, I'm not sure sword & sorcery no longer works. The term was coined by an American, after all, and one of the fathers of the genre, REH, was American through and through with a distinctly American style. Can a genre evolve but maintain the same name without becoming its own sub-genre?

If not, I love the idea of trying to come up with a new name.

Maybe I'll have more ideas after I read Servant. It's on my stack of must-reads on my night stand...


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Forthcoming
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Published
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Posted By : crystalwizard - 1/25/2008 3:26 AM
>Hard-Boiled Fantasy

I like that term :)

You'll forgive me though, I hope, if I don't go change Sword and Sorcery on the FS writer's guide page to it?

I'll argue that the term works just fine. Problem is that the definition seems to have gotten lost and muddy. I'm not sure it's necessary to come up with a different term as much as it is necessary to re-educate the masses on what it actually means.


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Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 1/25/2008 11:29 AM
Nik said...
Ehartistic? lol
Sounds like a learning disability. smilewinkgrin
 
I like the "red-blooded fantasy," though.
 
"Hard-boiled" itself can connote generic self-parodies, so some will think you're in league with Billibub Baddings and the Case of the Singing Sword. Howard Jones' suggestion of "New Edge" (from FS #2, I think) is a little vague.
 
Mike, thanks for posting your thoughts. Much to consider here, being a writer whose "place" and cultural background is slightly mixed.

Posted By : che2000 - 1/25/2008 12:20 PM
I think the reason why modern (commercial) fantasy is dominated by an Anglo sensibility is, in large part, to do with the ages of our respective nations, their paths to nationhood and their mythology.

Tolkien Peake, Moorcock et al tapped into a deep, very European sensibility – the notion of Gotterdammerung, a reaction to do with the fall of empire (even if some of them whole-heartedly agreed with it) and European fantasy has been following the same path ever since (two world wars fought on home soil will do that to you, I think).

However, writers like Lieber, Howard and Burroughs, in my opinion, have produced what is very recognisably American fantasy, even if the milieu is not.

It stems, in part, from where our myths come from. European myths are, by definition, much older than those of America and the function of the myth in a European context is to preserve the status quo, to keep the wolf (or Mordred or Hitler or Ghengis Khan) from the door. The ultimate fate of the hero is to die – to present a tragic face to the world, an imitation of Christ, if you like.

American myths are as much more to do with creating civilisation (and by this I mean the myths of the Frontier, as opposed to, say, the myths and legend of the Navajo or Sioux). The hero can still be a tragic one, but it is his life rather than his death which is celebrated. What matters is the resonance of the character in popular culture and how facts become less important than the interpretation of legend. (And before anyone cries ‘foul’, I am referring to mythology in its broadest possible form – as an Ulster-Scot I was almost lynched for suggesting that the Siege of Derry had become a mythological event, since the facts were now less important than the interpretation.)

In this respect, Tolkien is probably closer to the American model that might appear at first glance. His heroes live, they strive, survive and prosper (at least the important and/or cuddly ones do). Similarly, Conan will always live and prosper, so too will Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Philip Marlowe, Lew Archer (although very often the prosperity is a moral rather than financial one).

Coversely, Titus Groan must go into exile, Elric must die, so must Arthur and Launcelot, Cu Chullain and Finn and, in doing so, they create the world anew (literally, in Elric’s case). Contrast this with, for example, Davy Crockett, whose death propells the nation forward, rather than giving rise to its rebirth – similarly, the death of William Bonney heralds the arrival of ‘civilized society'.

How one writes fantasy is a matter of outlook, the settings are secondary.

Of course, equally and more succinctly, one could simply say that the Tolkien model has proven commercially successful and a lot of writers are more concerned with commerce than art.


  
"It's Doctor Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister," thank you very much."


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 1/25/2008 3:33 PM
Oh no! More for me to think about!
Ehartistic! Good grief! :)
I think, in agreement with Howard Jones, that we are on a cusp of sorts, where we have pretty much reached a place where the ferment needs to produce something new. I'm not certain what it will be, or what form the change will take, but an example of what can happen would be cyberpunk, which took a number of grown-stale tropes and shook them up. Certainly all the parts were already there.
It isn't that those who are writing now are any less than the giants on whose shoulders we stand. And from the responses here I can see that many of us are groping for the answer, whatever that is.
che, you are right, of course. Much of how we write our fantasy will depend on both our personal and cultural world-view, and the frontier is the American mythology. Even in contemporary settings, how many "lone wolf" cop movies get made each year? Is Bad Boys terribly different from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? Live Free or Die Hard from High Noon? They are all built on the rugged frontiersman model.
Made me have a thought about my Manthycore stories, because in fact she travels the world at a time when civilization is being invented, which is not that much different from it being brought to an untamed land. Wow, am I re-writing Shane? :) Not a bad place to be , actually, though big footprints to fill.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : nathan - 1/26/2008 3:42 PM
I was terribly Ehartistic for about two years. A new perscription and some intense couselling have brought it under control (you're never really cured of Ehartism) and I'm a functioning and productive member of society now.

I was reading about literary deconstruction and Conan just last night (and learned that I was quite found of the "Hang a Lampshade On It" writing device without even knowing it--which comes from writting books in a series with over 500 entries, I think) and came across a quote I can't find via google now but to paraphrase:

"There is no real originality, there is only people writing with passion and energy as if what they are writting has never been written before."

That kind of smacked me in the face. Perhaps all S&S needs to return to return to competeing range with High Fantasy is not a re-invention per se but simply for a writer of solid skills to write a S&S novel without any self-awarness of the subgenre or trophes with all their passion and energy then look mildly confused (as apperantly JK ROwling was when it was pointed out to her that she was writing Fantasy) when someone compares his cynical lone wolf heroic swordsmen to Conan.

In fact it is too bad the archtype is SO strong in our collective literary memory because really---in a Barnes & Noble fantasy section that has been filled with eclectic bands of misfits journeying on philentrophic travelouges for years & years, a lone, bloody minded alpha male (or female, Mike) *IS* something different. Something that hasn't been seen outside of comics and video games in strength for maybe twenty years.

Yet despite two decades between now and the death throws of S&S as book, way back in the 1980's, editors are going to think "they've seen it too much before"--and never mind that they may never have ever read Karl Edward Wagner or Robert E Howard. Meanwhile they'll keeping publishing in a straight unbroken line from JRR T through Terry Brooks to Robert Jordon (yes I know he wrote a Conan book in the 1990's) without batting an eye.

Of course this could all be symptoms of my Ehartism.


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Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : nathan - 1/26/2008 3:50 PM
As a PS. I think S&S did kill itself off in the 80's much as comics did in the 90's (speaking of deconstruction maybe we need a "Watchman" to do to S&S what it did to comics but I guess that was in many ways Elric) and reinvent it.

But I suspect something else happened as well. First high fantasy came along (or more accurately resurged) when S&S had become dull parody and editors simply followed the money as laid down by fans: i.e. followed 'demand.'

But now I also think or suspect that something else is in play with editors of fantasy lines and that is that S&S is in manyways simply not as PC (or whatever describer you want to use that isn't as loaded with anti-liberalism) as its High sibling and so is resisted by publishing marketers, editors and CEO's even though it might be "new" again and thus possibily profitably.

But that's sheer speculation.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 1/27/2008 1:18 AM
There is an axiom among stage magicians that a new trick is just one your audience hasn't seen.

I'm not certain I need the reader to catch all the little nuances, especially the genre-history references. I mostly want the reader to... what?

Feel something, learn something? Have another bit of their shared humanity illuminated?
At least be entertained.

And I for one am ready to sell out. Offer me some Dan Brown money, baby, and see how fast I am writing dragons and elves and farm boys of destiny and halflings and thieves and rangers and half-orcs and demi-tree elves and half-dwarven wood rangers on quests to save Sunshinia from the Dread Overlord Spitnail. I'll hate myself. I'll hate myself like crazy. Then, from the leisure of my villa in Tuscany I can gaze out across the vine-covered valley and opine about trends in heroic fantasy.

Or not. In the meantime I think we are all groping for something here, because we are on the cusp of something, and a thing is going to happen and then more things will bust loose, and junk.

It is just frustrating as all get out to not quite be able to grasp it yet.


Buy my book!
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Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : Bruce Durham - 1/28/2008 3:29 PM
If you want to appeal to the younger set, then how about extreme fantasy. :-)


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Posted By : nathan - 1/28/2008 5:13 PM
That's really not a bad idea. X-Fan! Home of The Bloody Axe!


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : PaulMc - 1/28/2008 6:00 PM
nathan said...
to paraphrase:
"There is no real originality, there is only people writing with passion and energy as if what they are writing has never been written before."


That pretty much sums it up for me. You've get to cut loose at an unconscious level. Howard, Jordan, Rowling, never set out to create a phenomenon or a niche. They wrote what they wanted. Their timing was lucky. Karl E. Wagner did a twist with Kane but I don't think his timing was right and it never caught on big. The only one I can think of that really thought it out was Moorcock's anti-Conan concept of Elric.

You can label it what you want but the public (and/or media) will probably give it a new name, anyway.

Tossing in "noir" or "hard boiled" doesn't really make it new to me either. Glen Cook's Black Company and/or his Garret series have already traveled those roads.

And no worries to Cook, another Garret book is due out this year.

I do understand what you're grasping at Michael. It does seem as though we're on a the cusp of something - or we should be on the cusp of something. But I think doing it consciously only makes it more difficult and less organic--if that makes any sense.


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Posted By : von Darkmoor - 1/29/2008 3:12 AM
Nik said...
Tolkienesque, Lovecraftian, Howardian........Ehartistic? 


Eh? artistic? smurf

Posted By : von Darkmoor - 1/29/2008 3:34 AM
Excellent post, doc caliban!  Many intriguing thoughts posted by the lot of ye as well.
~~~
How 'bout finding the next great S&S character in Wolverine - quickly, too, as his star is waning?  Of all the new-age heros, anti-heros, wanna-be-heros, he best represents what I think S&S is looking for.
 
And a new name?  Probably hard to find until we have a character or author to hitch it to.  A major name to bring it home, drive it to the forefront.  Here's what happens today: Say high fantasy, think Tolkein, for that matter say fantasy, think Tolkein, epic quests of groups of buddies, fairly cut and dried forces of good and evil, a smidgeon of waverers. Sure the movies did that, but it was almost that way prior to Jackson ever thinking about directing them. Say S&S, think Conan, think Arnold, think farce.
 
We need to reassociate S&S with the lone wolf American - the Jason Bourne of fantasy.  For that matter, I think we should toss the term 'fantasy' and all the trains of baggage it drags with it.  Whatever happened to "men's adventure"? Sure, make it PC now-a-days and call it "adventure fiction" or some such, "sword and shield" "sword & sandle" "sword & sex" for that matter.  I read a terrific comparison of the Bond character and movies with the Bourne character and movies -I'll have to find it again.  Though the author was a liberal prick who chased a few unimportant tangents, he proceeded to do a damn fine comparison of the American vs. British cultures/mindsets as personified through their respective ultimate spy-character.  That description, that summation, of Bourne, is what we need to find in fantastic adventure again.
 
The Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, Jack London, Paul Bunyon of a sword-slinger who slices-and-dices toe-to-toe with Wolverine and counts the cost later.
 
That's the American 'tude - you pull that off, you've got yourself the new hero of S&S.  Then you can rename the genre.
~~~~
Great, great thread, Mike!  Worth discussing further.  When i've the time, I think I'll toss these thoughts out on www.hvond.wordpress.com


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Posted By : Nik - 1/29/2008 10:34 PM
Wolverine is an excellent example of the persona of a great sword and sorcery hero. I like that. Too bad for those of us seeking a new brand of American fantasy that Weapon X is Canadian....


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Winter 2008

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : che2000 - 1/30/2008 7:05 AM
I think a distinctly European template already exists: world-weary (literally), cunning, cruel and opportunistic, but capable of both humanity and heroism as the character moves inexorably towards his personal Ragnarok (or perhaps Valhalla).

Directly, this is a reference to Charles Maturin’s Melmoth the Wanderer, but it could also include Elric, Dorian Grey (more obliquely) and (at a push) Dracula.

It’s a good template… if only Karl Edward Wagner hadn’t got there first with Kane.


  
"It's Doctor Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister," thank you very much."


Posted By : nathan - 1/30/2008 2:23 PM
Kane ROCKS!!!

Kane ROCKS!!!!

KANE ROCKS!!!!!!!!!


...sorry.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : DraperJC - 1/30/2008 4:44 PM
Hey, here's something that comes to mind as I read all this. It seems this new direction we're discussing needs a character type to hang itself on. The problem I see is this: Modern American pop culture is trending towards the introspective, soul-searching hero who is laden with doubts and angst. S&S is low tech and brutal, i.e. Conan really didn't give a rip about nurturing his inner child and probably would have lopped off the head of anyone who suggested he enroll in a counseling program. Is it possible that S&S is simply incompatible with our modern reading public? (Note: Like Mike, I could be convinced either way with nothing more significant than the flip of a coin.)


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Posted By : che2000 - 1/30/2008 7:49 PM
Nathan, I concur - Kane rocks!


  
"It's Doctor Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister," thank you very much."


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 1/30/2008 10:27 PM
Yes, I am a little disappointed. Usually we can count on Nathan for a more controversial statement than thet.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press Spring, 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
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Posted By : Nik - 2/25/2008 4:48 PM
There's been a bit of silence in this thread, so I'm hoping to get it started again (since everyone's had some time to digest).

DraperJC said...
Hey, here's something that comes to mind as I read all this. It seems this new direction we're discussing needs a character type to hang itself on. The problem I see is this: Modern American pop culture is trending towards the introspective, soul-searching hero who is laden with doubts and angst. S&S is low tech and brutal, i.e. Conan really didn't give a rip about nurturing his inner child and probably would have lopped off the head of anyone who suggested he enroll in a counseling program. Is it possible that S&S is simply incompatible with our modern reading public? (Note: Like Mike, I could be convinced either way with nothing more significant than the flip of a coin.)


Or does S&S need to evolve and adopt that "introspective, soul searching hero?" Perhaps modify the "doubtful, angst-ridden protagonist" a bit into some kind of hybrid that can be appreciated by lovers of S&S as well as fans of other fantasy sub-genres and even pop culture?

It seems to me the S&S hero was a big part of pop culture in the 70s and 80s, and when that type of hero fell out of pop-culture's favor, S&S declined in popularity, even among fantasy fans. So I think Jeff is on to something here. I would just add that S&S would need to change a bit to again reach the heights of its popularity. Whether that's a name change or a change in the characters it embraces, or something else altogether, I don't know.

But that's why you're all going to respond with brilliant ideas.


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : nathan - 2/25/2008 5:03 PM
This whole thing gets a bit murky--which makes it fun to discuss. I would think that under what you're saying Elric might have qualified. Conan of the "Phoenix in the Sword Conan", and Kull would have qualified.
 
How closely you marry S&S into epic fantasy might play a part. The real question becomes, perhaps, if you change the trophes too much is still even the thing you started out trying to write?
 
For 'feel' I think as long as you had a "low fantasy" setting you get some breathing room for the archetype of your hero.


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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : Nik - 2/25/2008 5:09 PM
nathan said...
For 'feel' I think as long as you had a "low fantasy" setting you get some breathing room for the archetype of your hero.


Good point. Can't underestimate the importance of setting. In saying this, I'm guessing you also include how the setting is populated (as in, S&S has a distinct lack of elves and what not)?


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : nathan - 2/25/2008 5:12 PM
Nik, I stold this from the wiki out of laziness but I think it right on, IMO.
Low fantasy is an umbrella term, describing various works within different sub-genres of fantasy, to contrast specific works with high fantasy. Though a very vague term, features that may indicate low fantasy downplaying of epic or dramatic aspects; includes de-emphasising magic; real-world settings; favouring of realism, cynical storytelling; and dark fantasy. The archetypal example of low fantasy would be a story taking place in a historical setting where the protagonists lack magic, and where conventional fantasy elements especially typical fantasy species such as elves or dwarves, are lacking
Fantasy literature that has a relatively low amount of magic and the supernatural. Magic and fantastic races and creatures may be present, but are not emphasized as in high fantasy.
Fantasy with a large degree of gritty realism about conditions of life in a medieval society, dirt, disease, power, or money.
Fantasy set in the real world with fantastic elements, like magic and monsters: contemporary fantasy or historical fantasy.
Fantasy using a non-epic world view, as, for instance, not including an absolute evil.
Fantasy where the protagonists are ordinary people, heroic only in character if at all (usually also an aspect of dark fantasy).
Fantasy concerned with everyday life, as opposed to world-shaking quests.
Fantasy written in a plain-spoken as opposed to an elevated style. (The diminishing stylistic influence of J.R.R. Tolkien and Lord Dunsany has made this definition less useful, as high fantasy is decreasingly marked out stylistically.)


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : nathan - 2/25/2008 5:14 PM
I would say, or offer, that by anchoring/grounding your story in a low fantasy setting you are about 3/4 of the way to writing S&S. Or close enough that even if you threw in a EPIC QUEST you could still argue for it being S&S--mostly.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : Nik - 2/25/2008 5:25 PM
That definition just gave me a dozen reasons why I prefer S&S settings and characteristics. Thanks for sharing.

Given what you just said, I think maybe all I'm talking about is tweaking the S&S character. If setting is 75%, how much is character? 25% or less, right?--would changing that a bit make it NOT S&S? I personally don't t think so. I'm not suggesting we throw an elven sorceress into an S&S story. I'm saying we take that S&S barbarian or thief or Amazon or immortal or whatever and alter his/her world view and motivations a bit.

Hell, Ehart's already done this with his Manthycore tales, in my opinion. In old school S&S, it seems you cheer for the protag because he or she deals with everything in a no-nonsense/no-bullshit-toleration sort of way in which you sometimes wish you could. I mean, how many politicians would I like to axe, and how many people I encounter on my commute would I love to impale (at least in my momentary rage)? It would be so much easier, and so much more fun!

In the "new school" of S&S, so to speak, in tales like Manthycore, you cheer for the protag because you feel for him/her, because you can relate somewhat to his/her plight. Maybe there's the difference I'm talking about.


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/25/2008 6:38 PM
Motivation does seem to be a key. While I think if you asked Conan why he did such dangerous stuff, he would think you crazy for asking, and point to the loot. But in nearly every story his motivation changed part way through, and that may be part of what has kept the ole Cimmerian popular all these years.

I think the difference between the old stuff and the new may be one of noir plotting--- the poor choice at the beginning that requires the protagonist to take action. I think reading audiences have become so sophisticated that they are no longer willing to accept that the hero got into a fix through no fault of his own, as a result of someone else's machinations, but rather that a series of choices, or one reallllly bad one, got him there. "There will be Blood" just walked away with a stack of statuettes, and the story is entirely about one man's poor choices and their consequences.

More blathering from me and still more questions than answers. But I know what we are reaching for is there, somewhere.


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Posted By : Nik - 2/25/2008 6:43 PM
I have noticed a tendency toward character-oriented stories like this.

Was I off the mark, then, with my comments on Servant, Michael? I'm only about 1/3-1/2 of the way through, so maybe more is revealed about how the Servant acquired the talisman, and maybe that revelation (a poor choice?) will make me see it as "noir?"


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/25/2008 8:23 PM
No, I don't think so. I think that the origin is only clarified a bit.

Noir is still just one of the influences, and I am using a few of its tropes to try and get a handle on where fantasy is headed. The Servant certainly makes some poor choices, and her moral dilemma is as grim as my skills can make it. Is she a noir character? Perhaps noirish.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007

Posted By : von Darkmoor - 2/25/2008 11:13 PM
There's been some brilliant observations posted here, and this is a fascinating thread - I'd love to toss this whole concept onto all our respective (for those who have them) blogs and get a cross blog discussion going - drive some readers to all of us.
~~~~
So pursuing who I brought up earlier, would a Wolverine-styled character be enough of an "introspective, soul searching hero" or "doubtful, angst-ridden protagonist" within an "anchoring/grounding [of the] story in a low fantasy setting" to qualify as a new S&S - or simply just a version of the old tried and true S&S?  And speaking of S&S, how come there's nary a comment on my suggestions for a new S&S?


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Posted By : Nik - 2/25/2008 11:45 PM
As I said before, I like the idea of Wolverine as the template for a new S&S hero. Though, he didn't really cause problems for himself like in the aforementioned noir-style stories--the government just screwed him. (Hey, we can all relate to that!) He's got anger and revenge issues, but they're tempered by a conscience. I think you put a sword in his hand and drop him in a ancient or medieval setting, and you have yourself a good S&S story.

I put a post on my blog about this thread, but I don't think I sent any traffic this way. You guys with actual people who read your blogs should give it a try, though.


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : crystalwizard - 2/26/2008 2:46 AM
von Darkmoor said...

So pursuing who I brought up earlier, would a Wolverine-styled character be enough of an "introspective, soul searching hero" or "doubtful, angst-ridden protagonist" within an "anchoring/grounding [of the] story in a low fantasy setting" to qualify as a new S&S - or simply just a version of the old tried and true S&S? And speaking of S&S, how come there's nary a comment on my suggestions for a new S&S?


Wolverine is too sci-fi in my mind to fit into S&S.

Take away his costume, claws and mutant powers and he's a tired trope

Posted By : darkbow - 2/26/2008 5:18 AM
I'll have to agree with cw about Wolverine. He's an angst-ridden anti-hero. That's been done to death. Where S&S is going, I don't know. It seems to me fantasy, and fiction in general, is in dire need of a new type of hero.

We've had the square-jawed hero who never focuses on his feelings. We've had the anti-hero who thinks only about his feelings most of the time. What else is available? I think we've seen every combination of hero and anti-hero there is. Heck, even out-and-out villains are becoming protagonists nowadays. Dexter, anyone? "Silence of the Lambs?" Even Darth Vader.

I don't have any solutions. But I'd like to find some, or at least help.


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Posted By : che2000 - 2/26/2008 9:29 AM
Maybe, in a sense, it’s time to look at not what we write but how we write.

It strikes me that, almost since its inception and certainly in the years that have followed, the field of sword and sorcery has maintained an almost ‘anti-literary’ stance, rather in the way that British horror did during the 1970’s and early ‘80’s (I’m in particular reference to the Pan Books of Horror under the editorship of Herbert Van Thal which were avowedly anti-literary).

If one thinks of the movements which have revitalized science fiction – the New Wave in the 1960’s, Cyberpunk in the 1980’s – there was a willingness to experiment, to take traditional forms and apply new techniques (or at least techniques appropriated from the Mainstream) to create a new approach to the business of how one places words on paper.

It seems to me that S&S in particular (and most other forms of fantasy) remains firmly wedded to traditional narrative forms - to an extent whereby even first person narrative is a relative rarity, particularly in the long form – and literary experimentation tends to be frowned upon. (There are, of course, exceptions to this - I’m thinking primarily of M. John Harrison and his Viriconium novels and stories or Gene Wolfe’s New Sun novels).

Now this may have much to do with the evolution of S&S whereby the rules and conventions laid down in the pulp magazines of the 1930’s have remained little changed to this very day, or indeed with the genre’s deeper roots within myth and legend, but if science fiction (who’s roots also lie with both the pulps and mythology) can adapt, then why can’t other forms of fantastic or speculative fiction?

Maybe what we need is not a new type of hero but a willingness to evolve.


  
"That blackguard Flashman, who never speaks to one without a kick or an oath--"


Posted By : Nik - 2/26/2008 11:32 AM
che2000 said...
Maybe, in a sense, it’s time to look at not what we write but how we write...Maybe what we need is not a new type of hero but a willingness to evolve.


I agree with a lot of what you said here--much of it echoes my own thoughts. I do think, however, there is a limitation to how far you can let the way we write S&S evolve before it becomes something else. If we get TOO experimental, we lose sight of what makes S&S what it is, cinematic pacing being one thing that comes to mind. I still think we can maintain this kind of pacing while "beautifying" the language we use.

You also talked about a revitalization of SciFi, but that came about with the advent of NEW sub-genres. When we talk about S&S, we're already talking about a sub-genre and this might complicate things. What do you all think?


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : nathan - 2/26/2008 1:18 PM
This discussion had me thinking. What I kept circling around was the presumption that S&S needed changing in order to work. Now, if you look at S&S in terms of the bottom of the barrel--in terms only of northern barbarians with limited intelligence doing cave man things--than yeah.

But I honestly don't think that original S&S was that narrowly defined. Here's a

http://www.swordandsorcery.org/articles.htm
link to the old Pitch Black/Howard Jones of now Blackgate fame/Sord&Sorcery site. I don't want to seem like I'm assigning homework and some of the older site members might have already read some of these excellant articles, but for those who haven't, and who enjoy the topic it's good reading, fun stuff.

I came to the conclusion that S&S doesn't need to be reinvented--even if the hard cliches must be avoided. S&S was always much broader than that anyway--it's just been reduced. I think a talented writer writing squarely within S&S parameters could write and publish a *novel* today.

I didn't think so at the start of the conversation. Just thoughts.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : Nik - 2/26/2008 1:35 PM
Yes, most or all of us have read these, but it doesn't hurt to refresh our memories to assure that we're all speaking within the same context and drawing from a common base of knowledge.


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : PaulMc - 2/26/2008 5:29 PM
nathan said...
I came to the conclusion that S&S doesn't need to be reinvented--even if the hard cliches must be avoided. S&S was always much broader than that anyway--it's just been reduced. I think a talented writer writing squarely within S&S parameters could write and publish a *novel* today.


Should we all NaNoWriMo a flood of S&S novels come November?

I know I could use the kick in the arse... cool


-- Paul McNamee

My Writings


Posted By : nathan - 2/26/2008 5:59 PM

Fifty thousand words in a month? We'll I'm kinda doing that now. But...it does seem a very Swords Together kind of thing to try and re-reading those old articles did kind of shake me out of the sterotype-box reference I'd been think of in terms of S&S.

I'm tepidly game contingent upon how much support the idea gets--but I do kind of like the challenge aspect of Paul's idea.

Anyone else?


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/27/2008 1:16 AM
Hard for me to committ to anything more than what I have on my plate as it is, but chances are, looking at what is scheduled, I will be writing in the 50k range in November, and yes, it will be S&S :)

Unless...


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Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
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Posted By : nathan - 2/27/2008 2:10 PM
Up the site someone was asking for a recommendation of Kane stories. In it I typed quickly off the top of my heard: "Kane is a Byronic Hero on anabolic steroids. And meth."
Then I began to think about Byronic Hero and I thought, Conan was one. Elric was one. Kane was one in spades. So I went to wiki to make sure I wasn't confused and this what a Byronic hero is listed as:
The Byronic hero is an idealized, but flawed, character exemplified in the life and writings of Lord Byron, characterized by his ex-lover Lady Caroline Lamb as being "mad, bad and dangerous to know". The Byronic hero first appears in Byron's semi-autobiographical epic narrative poem Childe Harold's Pilgrimage (1812-18). The Byronic hero has the following characteristics:

conflicting emotions, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness
self-critical and introspective
struggles with integrity
a distaste for social institutions and social norms
being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw
has "dark" attributes not normally associated with heroes
struggle with sexual identity (homosexual, sleeps with many women, etc.)
a lack of respect for rank and privilege
a troubled past
being cynical, demanding, and/or arrogant
often self-destructive
loner, often rejected from society

That seems the crux of a S&S traditional hero as well. This concept of a unthinking superman neandertal is a sterotype used to denigrate or parody the field. A character with those Byronic tendecies is a hallmark (if not exclusive) character in S&S--and I would submit the Byronic hero is publishable in today's editorial atmosphere.

Just thoughts anyway.

EDIT: so really if people agree with my take (and they may not by all means) we then have a simplistic, but stylistically handy definition of S&S as: Byronic but physical character in a low fantasy setting.

Thoughts on that? Do I simpify too far or does that ring true?


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : nathan - 2/27/2008 2:14 PM
And I have no idea what happened with my type size...


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/27/2008 2:26 PM
Which I agree, should be quite publishable.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
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Posted By : Nik - 2/27/2008 2:32 PM
Your type size had identity issues, a crisis of confidence, and a distaste for social norms, and therefore went awry for a moment.

I agree the Byronic type fits Conan, Kane, and Elric in a lot of ways. But all S&S heroes? I'm not sure. I would safely say most S&S heroes have some of the Byronic characteristics listed.


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : nathan - 2/27/2008 3:14 PM
Eh, I said hallmark but not exclusive.

The truth is though, that in reflection all *my* personal favorites and the ones I usually refer to when I think of "good" S&S fit that def.

I agree though that you're right and there's non-Byronic S&S heros. I just don't like them as much and think that on the contiuum between Epic/Heroic fantasy meets Sword & Sorcery the non-Byronic characters are more ready to slip over into the other subgenre category than the quintisential Byronic ones.

A happy go lucky brawler in a low fantasy setting setting could very much be a S&S story--but it might also look closer to a heroic fantasy--depending.

But sure, I agree you're right.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : Nik - 2/28/2008 12:27 PM
Forgot to say I agree--the Byronic character should be publishable today. And, like you were going for, we need to start with an agreed upon definition of S&S to further discuss whether it needs to change or evolve or morph into something else altogether. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Michael--since this is your thread--is there where you wanted the conversation to go?


Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007


Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/28/2008 5:24 PM
I have no idea where I want it to go, but this is interesting and valuable, so I certainly have no objection to it continuing. :)


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007

Posted By : DraperJC - 2/28/2008 6:18 PM
So if our S&S characters don't need to change to fit the times then I think we at least need to recognize that the readers has changed. I'm thinking now that we may have characters that don't get all introspective and angsty but our readers may be looking for that. Or maybe at least ascribing some of their own emotions to the character.

So maybe this is a way of saying that our straightforward kill-the-bad-guys characters will do things that evoke emotions in readers without evoking those emotions in themselves.

I'm not sure if this is coming across correctly. I'm not just talking about catharsis here but more like a reader seeing the absence of introspective self-doubt as something that highlights their own doubts.


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Posted By : von Darkmoor - 2/28/2008 9:49 PM
Interesting point Jeff, let's follow that thread a second. I think today's readers, while tiring of the introspective, angsty, anti-hero ala Wolverine (to stick to my original posit), still have zero interest in the squeaky clean Superman hero. So where's that leave them. Stuck half-heartedly reading the anti-heros, their interest not so much targeting a particular character, but residing still within the genre. I don't believe the genre's in trouble. While never considered 'literary' at the same time it will never disappear. There's too much of man tied up in the genre.

In carrying around my postcards and talking about the antho to anyone who breathes (I do feel bad for the people I meet sometimes), I've discovered people I would never have thought read this stuff do! Not at work, wherever that may be and for various reasons, but they read it and they came to me, since I didn't go to them. Then, of course, there's been those people that I really wished did read this stuff - but more often than not, there are only 2 types of people who flat turn me down: those who do not read at all and those who read only nonfiction.

Everyone else read Harry Potter. So what did/does HP give them, and keep on giving them to get them to keep on reading? And whatever it is, is it translatable to all corners of fantasy? of speculative fiction? of sword & sorcery? of heroic adventure? Everyone loved Indiana Jones - there's a quasi-S&S-qualifier, what does he have? The Batman has it in spades . . . the Dark Knight wasn't called that for no reason.


~~~~~~~~~~
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Assistant Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press
Editor, The Return of the Sword
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz?
House von Darkmoor - where the real action is
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Posted By : darkbow - 2/28/2008 10:53 PM
Jason, Batman has played both straight-jawed hero and anti-hero at different times. Indiana Jones I'd say is a bit of an everyman character and sort of a flawed straight-jawed hero. But they're both old school by this point.

Harry Potter, on the other hand, I find a bit more difficult to characterize in traditional heroic terms. He's got a lot of the straight-jaw characteristics, but he also has some of those introspective traits. Though, over all, I found the character simplistic, which is what he's supposed to be to some extent.

So, where does that leave us? I'm not sure. I still think fiction in general needs a new brand of hero, but it feels like we've covered everything. Maybe the Harry Potter route is the way to go, at least for mass success.

I think one big thing a lot of heroes (at least those in successful fiction) capture is sort of an essence of their times. They are the right hero at the right place at the right time. I'm not suggesting Indy would be the perfect hero for 1939 (though he might be), but he was a perfect heroic figure for early 1980s America.

Which brings us back to ... what is the right kind of heroic fictional figure for modern times? I'll go out on a limb here, and suggest maybe it's someone strong but not necessarily overly aggresive (which probably isn't good news for S&S). What makes me think this is a possibility? Barack Obama. Whether you like the man or not, whether you'd vote for the man or not, is besides the point. At least for a certain segment of U.S. society (a rather large and growing segment), he presents a symbol of hope. Even if you don't see that quality in the man, and maybe you even are turned off by him, I think it would be foolish not to be aware that others at least are seeing hope in him. Maybe that's what America in general, and possibly readers, are looking for ... a figure who brings hope without cynicism.

And I say all that seriously, without trying to push or harm any political agenda. I don't want this to turn into a political argument (that's for other threads); I'm just tossing out an idea.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com


http://radiodarkbow.blogspot.com Two songs a day, every day.


"Hot Off the Press" Ray Gun Revival #25, 2007.

"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in the Flashing Swords anthology, "The Return of the Sword," coming out March 15, 2008.

"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology.


Posted By : von Darkmoor - 2/28/2008 11:02 PM
Well, Barack does make a nice S&S protagonist's name . . . .


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Assistant Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press
Editor, The Return of the Sword
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz?
House von Darkmoor - where the real action is
von Darkmoor's thoughts - where it all began

~~~~~~~~~~
Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : darkbow - 2/28/2008 11:10 PM
With the muscles in his chest bulging beneath his tunic, the mighty Barack lifts his sword high above.

"Yes we can!" shouts the Chicago barbarian, then with a swoop of his hefty blade slices off the head of the enemy.

The blonde-headed, female enemy. Who whines. Whined, I mean. A lot.

Now what was I saying about not pushing a political agenda?


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com


http://radiodarkbow.blogspot.com Two songs a day, every day.


"Hot Off the Press" Ray Gun Revival #25, 2007.

"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in the Flashing Swords anthology, "The Return of the Sword," coming out March 15, 2008.

"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology.


Posted By : nathan - 2/29/2008 2:20 PM
darkbow said...

Which brings us back to ... what is the right kind of heroic fictional figure for modern times? I'll go out on a limb here, and suggest maybe it's someone strong but not necessarily overly aggresive (which probably isn't good news for S&S). What makes me think this is a possibility? Barack Obama. Whether you like the man or not, whether you'd vote for the man or not, is besides the point. At least for a certain segment of U.S. society (a rather large and growing segment), he presents a symbol of hope. Even if you don't see that quality in the man, and maybe you even are turned off by him, I think it would be foolish not to be aware that others at least are seeing hope in him. Maybe that's what America in general, and possibly readers, are looking for ... a figure who brings hope without cynicism.

Dear Rabbit Lord, I think the prism through which you are seeing BO and extrapolating his popularity might be overplayed. In a sense this is a political argument--because that's the forum BO exsists in--but rather I'm talking more market force.
 
From a big picture market iconic attack BO is not a overwhelming force. He's an overwhelming sub-niche force at the moment that may very well grow. But break it down. He's won a large segment of his Tribe. But there are still members of his own tribe with consumer dollars not getting the Barak-attack [reference the SNL skit]. Then there's the other half of the country not getting the Barrack attack at all.
 
Now by winning a large enough grouping in his sub-niche he may become The Niche guy. But a large part of the people willing to support hims as The Niche guy were really wishing their own sub-niche guy had been the Niche guy. Then if he takes his Niche Energy and becomes The Main Guy you'll still have everyone who not only weren't down with him when he was a sub-niche guy--but who actively worked against him. He's going to be a 51-55% guy if he gets it all and of the 51-55% at least 60-65% were originally for someone else--even if they end up going with him.
 
Indiana Jones didn't have that problem. turn Wolverine is getting his own movie. At the risk of sound snarky--and I do mean this conversationally so let me throw in a smurf and a smhair so you know I'm just spitballing--but...would you say you've read widely across the genre. So much of the orientation of the conversation seems as if our starting point is all the *bad* paistche's and weak efforts and stock characters and not all the great characters and individuals that form the upper pantheon--if that makes sense?
 
That is everything I'm reading you guys as saying S&S needs I think you can find an example of already.
 
What about this concept, just as a spitball and a conversation starter. S&S as genre including and ecspecially in terms of character & setting already has everything it needs to succeed except a dedicated and talented writer trying to get it published. 
 
If confine our discussion to the top of the genre work then I would submit that it doesn't need to be re-invented. It merely needs to be re-introduced. 
 
A non-aggressive S&S hero? Define that better for me, if you could--I'm just feeling slow this morning. I would say Elric wasn't aggressive in the ways Kane was--but he was still a fighter because his setting demanded that. I think I'm not picking up your nuance and I apologize--on the other hand my question gives us an excuse to pontificate on literature and one should never apologize for exercising that liberty :-)


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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : nathan - 2/29/2008 2:27 PM
DraperJC said...
then I think we at least need to recognize that the readers has changed. I'm thinking now that we may have characters that don't get all introspective and angsty but our readers may be looking for that. Or maybe at least ascribing some of their own emotions to the character.
      How 'bout this view: readers haven't really changed. They are used to seeing an emoter--give them something new, something fresh something post-metrosexual.
 
Let them enjoy some blood & thunder escapism. And the problem that I have with the last line (as a form of conversation starter not as philosphical argument) is that it presumes the only emotions the readers have that are their "own" are the Oprah Book Club and Teen Angst kind.
 
What about frustration? What about anger or adventure-lust or the desire to get a cheap adrenaline high from a story.
 
The two generations behind me (I'm 37) are the ones who made Xtreme a part of the national lexicon.
 
There aint nuttin more Xtreme than Kane or Conan or Elric or Ffard & Mouser on their bad days.
 
Just thoughts.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/29/2008 2:54 PM
Part of the issue is that we have let the S&S hero become, well, a hero. Conan for the most part is anything but noble, and Elric is what happens when noble goes to rot. Xena and all the crap that travelled along with her laundered all the dark out of the genre.
I am finishing a Servant story this weekend--- she is going to do something murderous, as is her nature. We cannot forget the essential selfishness of the great S&S heroes, or the fact that none of them were goodguys--- Conan finally ends up as king by, what? Murder and usurpation of course.
Yeah Murder! Yeah Usurpation!


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Posted By : PaulMc - 2/29/2008 2:58 PM
nathan said...
DraperJC said...

then I think we at least need to recognize that the readers has changed. I'm thinking now that we may have characters that don't get all introspective and angsty but our readers may be looking for that. Or maybe at least ascribing some of their own emotions to the character.

How 'bout this view: readers haven't really changed. They are used to seeing an emoter--give them something new, something fresh something post-metrosexual.

Let them enjoy some blood & thunder escapism. And the problem that I have with the last line (as a form of conversation starter not as philosphical argument) is that it presumes the only emotions the readers have that are their "own" are the Oprah Book Club and Teen Angst kind.

What about frustration? What about anger or adventure-lust or the desire to get a cheap adrenaline high from a story.

The two generations behind me (I'm 37) are the ones who made Xtreme a part of the national lexicon

There aint nuttin more Xtreme than Kane or Conan or Elric or Ffard & Mouser on their bad days.

Just thoughts.

Actually, a phrase just jumped out at me from JC's post.

Our readers.

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? OUR readers are going to be looking for blood& thunder and really don't want whiny heroes. They want more of the same style--it's what brings them to the table. If you mean "mainstream readers", then that is a different ball of wax.

We were having a similar conversation over on the REH Forums last week. And I remembered a movie I saw last year.

It was a documentary on heavy metal music. I'm not into the music, but the film was an excellent study. The filmmaker summed it up perfectly at the end. He said it was okay if the majority populace didn't understand heavy metal - the heavy metal fans are doing just fine without the majority, thank you.

I think maybe that's where the s-&-s sub-genre falls, too.

We're 'underground', keeping each other informed, having our own discussions, etc.

And I'm all right with that.

Not sure if I'm on-topic or a little on a tangent but, figured I'd post that thought. :)


-- Paul McNamee

My Writings


Posted By : Nik - 2/29/2008 3:48 PM
nathan said...
Now by winning a large enough grouping in his sub-niche he may become The Niche guy. But a large part of the people willing to support hims as The Niche guy were really wishing their own sub-niche guy had been the Niche guy. Then if he takes his Niche Energy and becomes The Main Guy you'll still have everyone who not only weren't down with him when he was a sub-niche guy--but who actively worked against him. He's going to be a 51-55% guy if he gets it all and of the 51-55% at least 60-65% were originally for someone else--even if they end up going with him.


Isn't this how it goes in every primary presidential election? Anyway, back to sword and sorcery.

I think we're limiting our discussion in terms of who we consider a sword and sorcery hero. I would argue there are other characters we're not considering. What about Ramsey Campbell's Ryre? There's a guy who can't stand the weak being oppressed. His frustration and anger come from mistreatment he's experienced in the past, and when he sees wrong like this being done, he acts, partly from a need for revenge, but partly because it's simply right.

There are other lesser known characters who I would argue are sword and sorcery heroes (some would say heroic fantasy, but sometimes it's so hard to tell the difference) that we may be ignoring here. Maybe, kind of like what nathan said, what we're looking for is already there. It just needs to be re-introduced. Maybe there are some fringe characters from the second surge of S&S in the 60s and 70s that fit the bill?

Then again, Paul makes a good point, too. Maybe S&S doesn't need to be mainstream. Maybe as long as it survives and is read and written and enjoyed by some group, everything is fine.

I personally would like to see it grow in popularity and in the amount of respect it gets.


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Posted By : nathan - 2/29/2008 6:33 PM
Nik said...

Isn't this how it goes in every primary presidential election?
    Well, yes. Exactly. That was why I was (trying) to say a political figure and even a winning political figure is too complex a phenom to compare to an icon like an Indiana Jones.
 
But as to your point about Ryre--exactly.
 
Paul's right. But if I had to be an underground I'd like to be Def Lepard, Metallica, Guns&Roses than King Diamond and Autograph. I'd at least like to be Motley Crew.
 
There are boys and young men who cut there teeth in fantasy on Robert Jordon WoT. That's what fantasy is to them. Give them a straight shot of well written old school S&S and it would be liking leading the blind to vision.
 
They would have never realized it could be like that. There are many younger (than say me) readers who love fantasy and read high fantasy cause of the heroic fantasy element AND because that's what the publishing monolith gives them.
 
Exposure to something a little more frecious wouldn't leave them desperate for more emoting--it would leave them hungry for more blood & thunder.
 
IMO anyway. Or I'm leaning strongly to that being my new IMO opinion, opinion anyway. 


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : darkbow - 2/29/2008 6:58 PM
Nathan, when mentioning Barack, I was really thinking fiction in general and not so much S&S. I wouldn't compare Indy to Obama, but I could maybe compare Obama and Harry Potter. And, yeah, I'd say I'm farely well read in S&S, probably more there than in general fantasy. :-)

I like Paul's mentioning of heavy metal in a comparison to S&S. What I think S&S needs for popularity is not so much something new, but maybe a breakout chracter or writer. Sort of like Nirvana in the early 90s. I wouldn't say Nirvana was metal, but definitely an offshoot mix of metal/punk/pop that created a wave that lasted at least a few years and is still being felt in the music industry today. I seem to remember Kurt Cobain saying that early on he wanted Nirvana to be a mix of Black Sabbath and The Beatles.

I do, however, think mainstream fiction (and I'm including cinema here) needs a new form of hero. The straight-jaw guy and the anti-hero have been done to death.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com


http://radiodarkbow.blogspot.com Two songs a day, every day.


"Hot Off the Press" Ray Gun Revival #25, 2007.

"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in the Flashing Swords anthology, "The Return of the Sword," coming out March 15, 2008.

"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology.


Posted By : nathan - 2/29/2008 7:41 PM
darkbow said...
 And, yeah, I'd say I'm farely well read in S&S, probably more there than in general fantasy. :-)

Yeah, I'm sure you are. That was clumsy phrase-ology on my part. I was trying to get at the root of why some of our reference points seemed to be (from what I was reading) the bad S&S cliches.
 
I mean, no one wants to write badly or to try and bring the bad stuff back, but it seemed we were needlessly limiting what S&S could be and what it had already done--by seemingly speaking in terms of what could be more construed as a parody of S&S than S&S itself.
 
But I said that kind of bass akwards.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."


Posted By : darkbow - 2/29/2008 8:37 PM
I think part of the problem might simply be a misunderstanding of the term "Sword & Sorcery." While most of those "in the know" about S&S realize the differences, to the general reading public S&S pretty much means Schwarzenegger in the Conan movies. At best, when thinking of S&S, most general readers (and even a good number of fantasy readers) could only name one or two S&S authors ... Howard and maybe somebody like Leiber or Moorcock. Even an author as well known within S&S circles as Wagner is practically unknown elsewhere. Perhaps because of this misunderstanding/misconception is why we tend to jump to the worst of S&S.

I'm also wondering if, for an S&S author to "make it big," he or she would have to overcome that title of being "an S&S author." Not that that's impossible, though it would be a hefty task. To go back to the heavy metal analogy for a moment, Soundgarden was initially labeled a metal band when signed by A&M (they even toured with GNR for a while), but when grunge suddenly hit big with Nirvana, Soundgarden (being from Seattle and one of the early SubPop bands) was relabeled by music execs as a grunge band ... while they were actually a grunge band all along, maybe even one of the first grunge bands. Even before the term "grunge" existed.

And as an aside, I don't include myself in the mix of S&S writers. Sometimes I write S&S, but I tend to think of myself as more of a horror/dark fantasy writer.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com


http://radiodarkbow.blogspot.com Two songs a day, every day.


"Hot Off the Press" Ray Gun Revival #25, 2007.

"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in the Flashing Swords anthology, "The Return of the Sword," coming out March 15, 2008.

"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology.


Posted By : Swashbuckler - 3/1/2008 1:59 AM
Wow ... great discussion,