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Posted By : Edward Knight - 11/19/2007 3:15 PM
Recently, I've been blasted on this board and a few other small press blogs/boards/whatever for suggesting that writers should promote their own work--that they should pay money from their own pocket to support the books they are published in as well as the works of other writers and publishers that offer an opportunity for them.
 
Now let's get down to facts. Most of us participating on these types of boards are small potatoes when it comes down to the real world of writing and publishing. And what do we do to better ourselves--we read more posts and blogs offering up advice from other small potatoes in hopes of garnering that one tidbit that will help us sprout into a vine. Most of us will do well just to see print a few times in our lives. Most of us will never make it but a few of us will.
 
I offer this quote (from a truly profession writer) as evidence:
 

Don't plan on making a lot of money from your writing. A survey by The Authors Guild a few years ago found that the average author earned about $4000 a year from his or her writing. That was a general survey, but even in the genres, there are plenty of people struggling--many of them quite good writers. If you make it into print, you are doing well. If you succeed in breaking out commercially, you'll be among the extremely fortunate few.

--Jeffery A. Carver

 

So, what does it take for a writer to beat the odds? In my opinion, he/she has to pull ones self up because nobody else is going to do it for you. Writing is the small part of the job. After you get published it is your responsibility to sell the publication. If you think differently, then you will never reach a higher level of success. Over the years I have taken Marion Zimmer Bradley's advice to heart:

 

Stay out of amateur "writing workshops" where amateurs sit around and read their failures to each other. Twenty times zero is still zero. Never listen to criticism from anyone unless they can sign a check. Never mind what your best friend, or your aunt, or your English teacher thinks. Trust only professional criticism.--Marion Zimmer Bradley

 

With that in mind I've sought advice on how writers succeed from some highly successful folks, both the writing and publishing side of things. Two things stand out from their advice. One--you have to be a talented writer. If you can't write, then nothing else matters. Two--you must self-promote. It is the writer's responsibility to sell the work.

 

Here's what one professional writer who made it out of the potato patch had to say:

 

I make a living writing genre fiction in Canada. You can, too. But to do so, you're going to have to engage in self-promotion. You might think that your publisher will take care of pushing your book, but the promotional budgets for most first novels are measured in the hundreds of dollars -- and much of that will be designated as "co-op" funds, meaning they're only spent if bookstores are willing to match them dollar for dollar.

If you're lucky, your first novel will get part of an ad page your publisher has bought in a small-press genre magazine, perhaps a few dozen advance copies sent to reviewers (if it's a hardcover; don't count on that for a paperback original); and maybe a hundred review copies of the finished book sent out to newspapers and magazines (again, in the case of the hardcover; for paperback first novels, which most newspapers won't review, some publishers send out no review copies at all).

My advice: take whatever advance you get for your first novel (it'll typically be between $2,500 and $7,500) and spend all of it promoting the book.

Self-promotion costs money. If you were starting a dental practice, you'd expect to spend tens of thousands of dollars getting your business off the ground. Why should a new writer balk at spending some money, too? I met one wannabe recently who said he couldn't afford to do any promotion while he was starting up, but would do some once he got established. He was missing the whole point: promotion is a large part of how you get established.

 --Robert J. Sawyer Hugo and Nebula Award Winner

I've read similar advice from Stephen King, Richard Paul Evans, Orson Scott Card... The list goes on and on.

But there are some editors and wannabe writers around who are giving other writers bad advice. They are telling writers that they should never spend a dime out of their own pocket to promote the works in which their writing appears. They tell writers that "money should always flow to the writer". And there are a lot of small potatoes out there reading this advice from other small potatoes and taking that advice at face value. I'm not an advocate of self-publishing. You should never pay to get your work published. But you should pay to promote your work after it's published. Writing is like any other profession. If you want to make money at it, you have to invest money in to it. That's what the pros say.

Of course I'm just another potato buried out here in the patch with the rest of you, but I'm tempted to take the advice of Ms. Bradley and listen to people who know more than I do.

At Journey Books, we will get your work in print (that alone cost a hell of a lot of money), buy advertising for our products, setup websites and take care of orders, bookstores, and distributors. We'll list in catalogs, try to garner some nice reviews and all that stuff a small publisher is supposed to do. But in the end our results are also dependent on our author's ability to promote their work. If you're not willing to do that then don't submit here. Your job isn't finished when the writing is done.

I'll leave this with one more quote that kind of nails this all together:

One of the greatest misconceptions harbored by writers is that the job is done when the book manuscript is mailed. While manuscript completion is a time to celebrate, it is also the time to switch hats. The book writer now becomes the book promoter.

A book is like an iceberg. The writing is the easier part; the 20% visible about the waterline. The promoting is the most important part and usually consumes even more time and money. The promoting is also often the part not anticipated by the author.

Bringing a book into the world is like a bringing a child into the world—you are presented with an obligation to raise it. --Dan Poynter


Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Order our newest anthology, Unparalleled Journeys II, now at:
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com


Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/19/2007 3:22 PM
I one hundred percent believe that an author has to promote their work. Better yet, they should enlist all their friends to post about their book, post reviews on Amazon, flood SFReader with reviews, do tons of signings, attend cons, and generally make themselves a nuisance. Hell, they should get all their friends to buy their book, and then buy MORE books for THEIR friends.

I also believe that writers should pay to advertise their work. Google ads is a great way, but I can think of others.

I don't remember you getting blasted on this board for suggesting writers promote their own work, but whoever said otherwise needs to do some research.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : MichaelEhart - 11/19/2007 4:15 PM

Ed, you are so right. Nobody cares about your stuff like you do, except maybe your mom, and she doesn't know anyone who will buy the darn thing anyway.

If nothing else, attend the cons-- go to Kinkos and make a book board and huck it and some copies of the magazines and books you are in with you. Club cards are cheap, or even business cards with the cover of your book and your website and the publishers.

You goal early on is to build your readership. I too am small potatoes, but Saturday night at my book launch I knew I was on the right track when a fan bee-lined into the room with a copy of the book--- and 2 other magazines that I appeared in for me to sign. Without my relentless promotion of the "little stuff" over the last few years nobody would have cared about the book. And now the book is the step to... more books, more readers, and someday that villa in Tuscany and the summer house in Bali.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/19/2007 4:17 PM
What is a book board?


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/19/2007 4:31 PM
MichaelEhart said...

If nothing else, attend the cons-- go to Kinkos and make a book board and ...

Hey Michael - how much does that usually cost?  I was asking a friend who works at some sort of company that does printing (not along the Kinko's kind as I understand it) here in Milwaukee and he told me a 2'x3' b&w would run me about $6.50 but there were color and laminate and quantity that would all effect price --- I've been looking around at ways to promote The Return of the Sword, cuz, ya know, there's gonna be a lot of great stories in there! devil
 
EDIT: Sorry Ed, didn't mean to ignore you - I believe your comments to be sound and well-informed and cannot find contention with any of them, though I will say MZB's advice, while I do understand it and mostly agree with it, it is rather hard to enforce.  At least here in the potato field . . . or in the backyard garden of neighborhood writer's groups.
As an aside, I personally agree with those thoughts in regards to me handing out advice - but I am trying to become much more sagely in such matters.  And I am (somewhat) writing the checks . . . little ones . . . for crystalwizard to sign . . .


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 11/19/2007 4:43 PM
A book board is a replica of the cover, mounted on foam core, with an easel support. Make three and you can carry one to your panels and put the other two out on the promo tables with a stack of club cards. Worst case you can razor off a cover and mount it, I usually steal the jpeg image from the publishers website, convert it to pdf, and take it to Kinkos. Not certain how much, but should be around $10-15 each.

Also, be sure to ask people at every panel you are on to buy your book. Mention it in the introductions and mention it in the closings. Carry at least 3 with you everywhere at the con. Don't make someone who recognizes you in the restaurant go down to the dealer's room to get your product--- sell one to them right there. Why three? Many times folks who can't attend send friends with a few bucks to pick up anything that looks good, and a lot of folks will buy holiday gifts. We sold 4 copies to one buyer on Saturday.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : Daniel - 11/19/2007 5:55 PM
Nice post, Ed.


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel


Posted By : Lyn - 11/19/2007 6:34 PM
Good discussion. Even the "big potatoes" are required to attend promotional events and market their books.


Lyn from ResAliens


Posted By : MysticWino - 11/19/2007 7:09 PM
Great article. Thanks for posting. I especially like the supporting quotes. I especially like the MZB quote, but the rest support your point very well.
 
Not that I'm a hard one to sell on this topic . . .


Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin!

Posted By : Melkor - 11/20/2007 1:24 AM
Bringing a book into the world is like a bringing a child into the world—you are presented with an obligation to raise it. --Dan Poynter

Oh man, and I hate kids :p

My friends actually love my stories :) Well, not my friends...my friend :(

Cool post, definitely a very helpful heads up. A bucket of cold water to the face :)


"By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers:.... For neither do men live nor die in vain" - H.G.Wells - The War of the Worlds

If you are interested in nerds, Metal music, fantasy literature, sci fi, Sta Wars (not necessarily all at once), and just about any topic you may think of, visit my own Myspace: myspace.com/mailrobot and pay me a visit. Warning: lower your speakers so my flash mp3 player doesn't surprise you.


Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/20/2007 4:32 AM
Hey Melkor, nice to see you again.

Thanks for the info, Michael. I bought my own easel and planned on having 3-5 boards made, 1 or 2 in color. Also planned on making bumper stickers out of them and plastering them all over my car . . . . well, until my wife just read that. I wish I at least lived somewhat close to an author or two from the antho, as a joint signing/presence thing would be great.

Thanks for your recent string of great posts, Ed. Not that your not-so-recent posts weren't helpful, but, well, you know. This is now.


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : Firlefanz - 11/20/2007 12:55 PM
I'm walking down promotion alley right now.

I personally sold 27 copies of the Pandaimonion anthology in the last two months, even though I only have a story in it. I've done two readings / signings, I'm looking at the third next Saturday, and I've been taking flyers for the readings and a few books to every party I've been to in those months. I've talked to the newspaper, and am still trying to prod them into writing an article about the book and myself.

It's been work and fun at the same time. I see this as a trial run for next year when I hope to publish my first anthology. As editor, I'll have to do the major share of promotion, that's a simple fact for people in the potato patch.

So, yes, Ed, I do agree 100%. Promotion is a large part of an author's job. :-)


- Call me Firle.

Hannah Steenbock

Mystical Adventures
Sphaira


Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/20/2007 3:08 PM
Cool job, Firle! Nice!


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : MysticWino - 11/20/2007 4:45 PM
I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I should ghost write.
I can crank out a pootload of fiction novels, but I get nauseated any time I think about doing the promo thing. I've been working on/against this for years, but it seems like I'm getting more and more prone towards cloistering myself. Over the past two years, I've had some serious spats of agorophobia or whatever. Hard to get out and sell books when the idea of leaving the house freaks you out!
 
Good thing I've got a day job. ;-)


Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin!

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/20/2007 4:51 PM
I wonder how you go about landing a ghostwriting gig. Do you have to have a bunch of writing credits? Is it as easy as answering a want ad?


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : MysticWino - 11/20/2007 5:57 PM
While that's a very good question, I think we're tracking off topic . . . maybe 'ask the excerpt'?
Jordan Lapp said...
I wonder how you go about landing a ghostwriting gig. Do you have to have a bunch of writing credits? Is it as easy as answering a want ad?
In truth, I am 100% convinced of what Ed is saying.
I thought at one time to do it by means of hawking other peoples' work, but it seems that in poetry there are more people interested in having an 'ataboy' than doing any serious work toward making anything of it. The only one who has actually earned my respect in that ballpark is a gentleman name of Dan Blackston.
As far as other publications I've been involved in . . . I'll confess to paying too little attention. I know a few of our antho authors picked up tons of copies, and we were really grateful for that. It's a great thing to do. But I prefer to have the authors hawk it to everyone on the outside. Small publishers can usually reach those within their own genre circle, it's the folks out at the perimeters authors need to chase down and sell books to. Anyone with a book published and for sale should never be caught in public with no business card or bookmark or what-have-you that gives people the direction to buying the book.
And I prefer two options: from the distributor or via Amazon or BN. People get weird about ordering from a publisher of whom they've never heard, but they'll go nuts over a distributor's treatment or a book from Amazon written by that cool but really dude in the bar last night.
USE YOUR BLOGS!!!!! Promote your blogs and be very careful how you use your "writer's blog" in promoting your own work, your friends', your publisher[']s['], and stuff you like. Tell people how much you like it and why it rocks and give them an easy link straight to the shopping cart or BUYNOW button.
And anyone who sends you a review that reads well, that is entertaining, find everywhere possible to spank it onto the web like a pasted poster for a basement band posting broadsides in dorms.
Need more caffiene. Back in ...


Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin!

Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/21/2007 4:44 PM
EdK said...
Recently, I've been blasted on this board and a few other small press blogs/boards/whatever for suggesting that writers should promote their own work


Blasted from who?

I can guess, so don't answer that.

At the risk of opening a second can of worms, keep in mind that there are two sides to the marketing issue.

On one side you have the people that live in a fantasy world and believe that all they have to do is churn out words, then someone else will come along and do all the rest of the work for them, while they get rich.

On the other side, you have the people who live in the real world and realize that the only person that knows their story well enough to market it effectively, is themself.

I'd hope most of the people on this board are in the group that live in the real world.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print


Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/21/2007 4:46 PM
I fully intended to spend my first advance on promotion. I think what Robert J. Sawyer specifically did was to spend his entire advance purchasing his own book and giving them away at cons. Made him an overnight bestseller, I think.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/21/2007 5:02 PM
Well, I'm not receiving any advance and I don't know as I can afford that quantity, but I fully plan on buying multiple copies of The Return of the Sword and passing them out.  Too bad I won't be able to take advantage of Christmas, but them's the breaks.  I'll just have to make some other ones of my own.
 
Any authors in the anthology willing to get together and do signings and readings or even our own mini-con? ;-)


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 11/21/2007 8:00 PM
If you accept the story I sent you, I will most certainly be willing to help promote at cons or whatever.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/21/2007 9:31 PM
I've promoted every antho and project I've been in--except one. It's six months later and I still haven't gotten my contributor's copy of a certain antho, and the publisher appears to have gone under without putting any promotional effort in at all. I've been stiffed before, but this publisher has really dropped the ball.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/21/2007 10:13 PM
MichaelEhart said...
If you accept the story I sent you, I will most certainly be willing to help promote at cons or whatever.

Cool Michael!  I have every confidence all of the authors will - I've a good great group assembled!


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/22/2007 2:18 AM
So your next step, Jason, is to start looking at the cons coming up next year, and contacting the promoters. See if you can't get signing spots for you or your authors and see if there might be some panels you can get people on to.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print


Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/22/2007 2:24 AM
<wail in despair> WHhhaaaaat . . . . are you doing to me?! :)


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : Bill Ward - 11/22/2007 11:19 AM
Is there any sort of collective database that lists all or most of the cons?


billwardwriter.com


Posted By : MichaelEhart - 11/22/2007 2:47 PM
http://www.scificonventions.com/


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/22/2007 3:31 PM
Bill Ward said...
Is there any sort of collective database that lists all or most of the cons?


not that i'm aware of. we have some listed here, and you can probably get a listing of cons if you search google for "convention" "<statename>" (like "convention" "california")

Steve Jackson Games has some cons listed too, and most of the gaming sites around the net should have a few.

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/22/2007 3:57 PM
Good link, Michael, but they're missing almost all the cons in our area!

We need more cons up here. Feel like starting one?


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : MichaelEhart - 11/22/2007 3:59 PM
http://www.sfnorthwest.org/
sorry, here is the resource for all things NW con--- I was going to add it too, but must have gotten sidetracked.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/22/2007 4:01 PM
I noticed from your blog there's also RustyCon and that other one in Pasco Washington, not to mention the three we just up here (all on the same weekend :P).

How about one in .... well, March looks kind of sparse, doesn't it?


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : MichaelEhart - 11/22/2007 4:09 PM
March has NorWesCon, which as you know is everything a con should be.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : Firlefanz - 11/22/2007 4:13 PM
You know, guys, the day I'll visit one of those cons, I'll have it made.

*grins*


- Call me Firle.

Hannah Steenbock

Mystical Adventures
Sphaira


Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/22/2007 4:13 PM
Was that in march?? Wow. Time flies. June then.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 11/26/2007 1:24 PM
Many writers, if not most, are not comfortable with socializing at all, let alone networking and self-promotion. Aside from a certain amount of online activity, many of them are going to balk at this sort of thing at a deep psychological level. Once writers understand intellectually the need for self promotion, perhaps they'd be more open to a list of tasks. If this were part of a publishing contract from the very beginning, it would be very useful, yes?

The thing is, not all good writers are good self-promoters; the irony is that success comes more often to those of whom the converse is true. Robert J. Sawyer is, to hastily grab a couple of words from the H.P. Lexicon, an "unctuous creep". Part of the self-promotion he did was buying up the vast majority of in-print copies of his first novel, which furthered his self-promotion ends, but also artificially inflated his sales figures. This kind of diddling is not illegal, but ethically it's questionable at best.

I'm not convinced it was just a blind review galley that got Orson Scott Card on his side, but it's undeniable having a prominent author as an intellectual sugar daddy helps tons. You end up glowing from some of the shine reflected off their name.

Publishers would need to take on yet more heavy lifting to make successful books: they'd have to evaluate a writer's willingness and ability to self-promote, and develop and enforce a self-promotion scheme for the writer to follow, or come up with some innovative solution that obviates the first two without costing much. The latter sounds impossible, the former smacks of Sawyerian distastefulness because it throws up more walls in the "getting published" labyrinth emerging writers face.

Let's say I had two authors' manuscripts in front of me: the collected "character" stories of James Ng, and a collection of assorted stuff by Rhonda Westriver. On the one hand, Ng's Warlock the Baker stories kick ass and I'm excited about them, but Ng is a bit of a recluse. On the other hand, Westriver's stuff doesn't excite me, but she's a regular con attendee and is personable, female, and hot. This seems a difficult dilemma for a small publisher.

Posted By : MichaelEhart - 11/26/2007 3:34 PM
I am so lucky in that I have the skills and experience to self-promote. For many it is nearly impossible. I got mine from working in politics, and the fearlessness that can only be developed by spending years on the road as a stand-up comedian. Though I am not naturally a sociable person (weirdly, most comics are just as uncomfortable on a one-to-one basis as many writers) I am able seem more charming than I actually am by the simple expediant of asking people to tell me about themselves, a trick I learned as a reporter. Funny thing, I am most often fascinated by other people's stories of themselves, and it saves me having to think up stuff to say.
Not everyone can do this. Self-promotion skills can be learned though, and practice can make it far less uncomfortable. But there is no way that publishers should require this, as some folks just can't, and many writers are doing what they do because they are uncomfortable people already.
But if you can, self-promote. Remember, no matter how good your stuff is, if nobody knows about it, nobody will read it.
 
HP Lovesauce said...
it's undeniable having a prominent author as an intellectual sugar daddy helps tons. You end up glowing from some of the shine reflected off their name.
 
Boy Howdy, I am here to testify to that. Is it fair? Maybe not. But if your stuff actually sucks, then the endorsement of a big name won't help all that much anyway. So in the end, Westriver, Sawyer and Ng all have the first responsibility to write the story, and then work as best as they are able to see that it gets read.


Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007

Posted By : RHFay - 11/26/2007 4:26 PM
MichaelEhart said...
...But if you can, self-promote. Remember, no matter how good your stuff is, if nobody knows about it, nobody will read it.
 
 
Michael, that line sums it all up perfectly.  The public must be aware of your work.  Simply being published is not enough.
 
It's kind of like the old tree in a forest question - if a tree falls in a forest with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?  If a book, story, or poem is published, but no one hears about it, will it be read?


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
 

Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/26/2007 8:18 PM
H.P. Lovesauce said...
his seems a difficult dilemma for a small publisher.


Thus the need to get a good publicist on board if you at all can.

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/26/2007 8:22 PM
I disagree with Lovesause.

My knowledge of this comes from reading Sawyer's blog, but my memory is a little fuzzy, so apologies if I miss some details. But I recall thusly: Sawyer used him entire advance to buy his own books, true, but he then distributed his books for free at cons, and THOSE people's friends went out and bought his books. He was paid only a 10K advance (I think), which would mean he could buy at MOST 1500 books, but his novel went on to be a bestseller. The 1500 books ended up being a small slice of his numbers.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : Bill Ward - 11/27/2007 12:09 AM
Even if someone could buy up an entire print run, I don't see how that's 'unethical.' Who suffers?


billwardwriter.com


Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/27/2007 1:26 AM
Bill Ward said...
Even if someone could buy up an entire print run, I don't see how that's 'unethical.' Who suffers?


I guess before you could call it ethical OR unethical, first you have to define the ethics you're basing it on.

If you mean, he stacked the deck by making it look like people were buying the book, in order to get reviews so that peopel WOULD buy the book... and you consider that sneaky and underhanded... well then, it's unethical.

But if you consider that a good marketing ploy, then it's not unethical.

so, before we start taking sides and challenging each other to a duel, how about we decide what the rules of the game are?


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print


Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 11/27/2007 12:27 PM
CW's got the truth of it. The thing is, no one has heretofore declared what the rules are. Nothing's written down, nothing's legislated.

Bill, somebody suffers from artificially inflated sales, if only a single duped consumer.

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/27/2007 12:38 PM
Since he continues to sell well (earning a few hugos along the way), I'm not sure anyone's been 'duped'.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 11/27/2007 3:11 PM
I was trying to move beyond Sawyer and speak in generalities at this point. (His purchase, according to his blog, was 300 copies, in this case too small to skew even Canadian sales lists.)

Let's look at the Hugos, the fan-voted awards, you mentioned. You need at least a supporting membership to the host con to vote, and likely something akin to that to nominate a work. What if you do a mailing to a bunch of fans and pay their membership (or whatever) fees so they could participate in the nominations? "Heck," you say, "if I'm nominated, I'll offer everyone on this list a copy of my next novel at half cover price!" Ditto the fans you get to join the convention on your dime. Once you're nominated, you could even spring for day passes for a bunch of homeless people near the con site, explain to them who you are and what the Hugos are, and you'd love to have their input as voters, and promise them a hot meal after doing the hard work of participating in unbiased, democratic voting.

What if you're an author without a big-name patron? What if you paid Big Author X to write a positive blurb or magazine review for you, or to make a high-profile con appearance with you? Or pay an actor like Mark Hamill to make such an appearance and declare himself a fan?

How about other reviews? Would you pay review authors a token sum just to review a book? Pay to be part of a prominent podcast? Or maybe pay for a fake "viral" campaign in which people make forum posts or blog entries for money?

Maybe you're no good at networking. Why not hire a good-looking actor to press the flesh for you and liquor up prospective agents and publishers?

Is there anything in these scenarios that gets anyone's ethical spider-sense tingling?

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/27/2007 3:39 PM
The Hugo Awards Site said...

What if I still want to promote my book/film/self for a Hugo?

Our advice: Don’t. Actively campaigning for a Hugo Award is widely frowned upon by regular Hugo voters and has been known to backfire.

Take a look at the hugo site. I think it's pretty hard to gimp. And apparently there are 7000 members who can vote. You'd need a lot of homeless people to tip the vote in your favour. As for mailing them all copies, their addresses are not available (again according to the Hugo Site.
 
As for actors to press the flesh... ever heard of ghostwriting? I understand even Schwartznegger has written a book.
 
There are several locations on the net where you can buy a review, and even get that review added to amazon. Are they reviewers that matter? Not really, but you can't buy the other kind.
 
As for paying a big name author, well, if they are a big name they probably don't need your money or want to sully their reputation, but if the book is any good they might add their name to your book as co-author a la James Patterson.
 
It turns out that most of your examples are already being practiced and not too many people have a problem with those practices (or at least there's been no public uproar). I think that the rule in writing is the same as the rule in jujitsu: "Whatever works."


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 11/27/2007 4:15 PM
My apologies to EdK for the threadjacking. I think we agree that writers must promote their work--must!

Posted By : Bill Ward - 11/27/2007 4:30 PM
Buying votes and good reviews is unethical, sure, but buying up your own book? Come on. And would these 'duped' customers be the same people duped by television commercials and highway billboards?

The odds are so stacked against the starting writer its not like he's entering some level playing field where he can just sit back and let all his customers evaluate his work honestly; are you really saying people are 'hurt' when they are persuaded to buy one book over another? Even assuming the sale of one book is made instead of another, and not instead of a big mac and large fry or the director's cut of thelma and louise.

As far as rules go as long as a product isn't claimed to be something it isn't, and as long as a service isn't misrepresented (such as a reviewer compromising his objectivity) then where's the harm? Until advertisers figure out a way to steal money out of your wallet while you sleep its just a matter of disseminating persuasive and positive information, and I think any author with the chutzpah and hustle to play the system like Sawyer did is to be admired. Or am I supposed to feel sorry for all those authors that didn't bother with self promotion?

Sorry HP, this isn't a screed directed solely at you, but you presented a point-of-view that I really don't grasp, and I'm certainly not a proponent of a 'law of the jungle' in the social contract, but I really don't see how much of this -- everything less than the out-and-out bribery -- is a question of ethics.

(I don't think you are threadjacking at all HP, I think you raise a point that is integral to the whole discussion)


billwardwriter.com


Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 11/27/2007 8:29 PM
This one dude said...
USA Today and The Wall Street Journal, two competing national newspapers, name the booksellers they survey. The Times refuses to do that for fear that someone will try to game the system — for example, making strategic bulk buys to inflate sales numbers. When bulk purchases are reported, The Times puts the symbol of a dagger beside the book’s title to alert readers....
 
Why the attempts at manipulation? ....if a first-time author makes the list, the book will sell 57 percent more copies than it would have otherwise.
Artificially manipulating sales lists can help provide a "cumulative advantage"; just as the rich get richer, the already-popular (or those perceived to be popular) get more popular.
 
People aren't so much "duped" by billboards, because they know it's paid advertising. (But I'm not going to that stupid clown college!") There isn't the level of trust they might put into a bestseller list.
 
Just because a system can be gamed, doesn't mean it should. I guess the book publishing industry is still pretty small-time, and chutzpah or moxie or cojones can get you further than they could in, say, Vegas or Wall Street. If one ever gets successful, only a minority of nobodies like me on the Internet will decry an author as skeevy, even if they've gone on record as approving of this sort of thing. Higher book sales, popularity, and praise will be the end result, rather than an SEC investigation or a shallow grave in the desert.

Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/27/2007 8:36 PM
Again, I'm not sure 300 books counts as "gaming" the system, considering you have to sell far more than that to get on bestseller lists.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/27/2007 9:27 PM
My personal take on this entire thing is:

Is dishonesty involved? Or not?

Is it wrong to hire and actor to represent your product? No
is it wrong for that actor to say he/she likes it? Federal law says that if a person endorses a product commerically, and says that they use it, then they HAVE to use it. So federal law states that if the actor says he/she is a fan, they better be. If they break the law and say they like it, when they don't, that's wrong. If they say they like it and they do, that's not wrong.

Is it wrong to go out, hire homeless people to go in and vote for something? Not if you don't tell them what to vote for.
If you slyly, using dishonest methods, stack the ballot box in your favor, however, that's wrong

Everyone take a step back, and a deep breath.
Jordan, drop the specifics about one author and think in generalities here, please.

Is buying copies of your book to make it look like you've got more sales than you do an act of dishonesty, or not. Regardless of the numbers of books you buy or who you are. Generalities, please.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print


Posted By : darkbow - 11/27/2007 9:52 PM
It seems to me an author buying copies of his own books, even in the several hundreds, isn't necessarily dishonest. It's not really that many books in the big picture, and a good number of them are going to be given away to friends, family, potential readers, schools, libraries, etc. as promotional material. To my way of thinking, that's just an investment in yourself.

On the flip side, however, an author who somehow can afford and purchases thousands upon thousands of copies of his/her own book is being dishonest, to the publishing company (though they might not care) and the readers, reviewers, etc. It's a matter of taking advantage of the "system" and of those who are putting in hard work to try and make it. If we were talking about a corporation buying up its own stock to falsely increase its value somehow, I'm sure the feds would be all over it (okay, maybe not).


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com

"Hot Off the Press" available in Ray Gun Revival #25.

"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" upcoming in the Flashing Swords anthology, "The Return of the Sword: A New Age of Heroic Adventure."


Posted By : Bill Ward - 11/28/2007 12:28 AM
HP, you're actually talking about something slightly different there, ie. targeting the retailers specifically monitored by the bestseller people to skew the lists to give an inaccurate picture of overall sales*. That hasn't been brought up before, and I agree that is 'skeevy' because it works directly against the interest of the list itself; ie. it was setup to give an objective estimate of sales, so finding out the secret and exploiting it against the wishes of its proprietors and users is unethical, obviously.

These other examples, such as viral marketing, distributing book copies, chasing down blurbs, etc. all strike me as perfectly in accordance with fair play. We're moving past Sawyer and his 300 copies as being pertinent to this discussion, but I still don't see how he can be an 'unctuous creep,' or unethical, or lend his name to an adjective modifying 'distastefulness' when nothing that he has done that I'm aware of is in the least bit unethical. HP, you're talking about the big guys manipulating sales by targeting the supposedly confidential list of monitored retailers for bestsellers but your also lumping in a guy that made smart marketing moves when he was just starting out in the same category.

And nowhere did I suggest that 'gaming the system' was justifiable just because it was possible.

*to be perfectly clear, what you are referring to is someone buying, say, 10,000 books from bestseller monitored retailers so that it skews the data out the other end to make it look like 100,000 copies were sold overall. Obviously unethical. What I was saying, in the hypothetical, is that there is nothing unethical about an author just buying those 100,000 copies, or a million copies if he could, as it is not an act of deception nor in conflict with the function of any reporting institution (they report copies sold, not satisfied customers). Pathetic, yes; unethical, no.


billwardwriter.com


Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 11/28/2007 3:34 AM
Well said as usual, Bill.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor

Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 11/28/2007 10:47 AM
You make a good and definitive distinction, Bill.

Obviously my personal opinion of Sawyer and what he did 18 years ago is just that. I will say I wasn't alone in Canadian SF letters in finding it distasteful (if brilliant).

What this disagreement underscores is the necessity for writers to undergo a mind-shift concerning their role in the publication process.

We've all had to adjust our thinking concerning writing, submitting, being edited, and so forth. Many times the realities of the publishing world seem another hoop to jump through. The matter of self-promotion will, for many, look like a dismayingly high hoop that has also been set aflame. I can understand people just posting their stuff online and leaving it at that.

Writers by necessity must help promote any work of theirs that is being published. It'd be best if publisher and writer could find someone whose "bliss" is promotion; anyone have ideas of how to do that, and compensate them given a "small potatoes" budget?

Posted By : Dungeoneer - 11/28/2007 1:11 PM
I'm sorry, guys, but the key word here is "buying", isn't it?  If an author BUYS copies of his/her own book, he/she is STILL BUYING them.  Therefore, the demographic would still be correct.  Right?

Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/28/2007 1:28 PM
Dungeoneer said...
I'm sorry, guys, but the key word here is "buying", isn't it? If an author BUYS copies of his/her own book, he/she is STILL BUYING them. Therefore, the demographic would still be correct. Right?


no. because the demographic is supposed to show individual sales and is used to determine how many individual people have bought the book, not just how many copies of it have sold.

Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/28/2007 1:35 PM
H.P. Lovesauce said...

What this disagreement underscores is the necessity for writers to undergo a mind-shift concerning their role in the publication process.


That's a very well said comment.

This boggles me. Every sort of artist, except writers, do the publicity thing. They hold gallery showings, and do whatever else it takes to market themselves. Every other cottage industry knows that they have to market. Writer's USED to know they had to get their work out into the hands of the public, on their own.

I think the problem starts way back in time when some body started telling authors 'hey, let me publish that and i'll do all the marketing for you'. Some where it became 'required' that a writer did nothing but write.

Well, no, not 'writer'. A 'writer' can be anyone that writers and you don't find freelance journalists sitting around whining because someone isn't finding a newspaper that'll publish their story. Storytellers then.

I don't know many playwrites that sit around whining because someone won't produce their play. Just a certain group of storytellers that want to do nothing but sit at their desk and write down stories, then have everyone else do the rest of their work for them.

Such is life.

Posted By : darkbow - 11/28/2007 4:35 PM
I think part of the problem is there's an old ... I don't know, tradition? mindset? perception? ... where writers just wrote their work and sent it out, collected their checks and that was it. I'm talking 50 years ago and better. I'm not saying this "tradition" was real. I don't know. Wasn't around back then. But I have a hard time seeing guys like Faulkner, Hemingway, even Tolkein, driving from bookstore to bookstore to sign a handful of novels, then heading over to the local convention, even before such authors became known figures.

My guess would be writers back then had other venues, magazines and newspapers and other types of public events, to spread the word.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com

"Hot Off the Press" available in Ray Gun Revival #25.

"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" upcoming in the Flashing Swords anthology, "The Return of the Sword: A New Age of Heroic Adventure."


Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/28/2007 6:44 PM
darkbow said...
I think part of the problem is there's an old ... I don't know, tradition? mindset? perception? ... where writers just wrote their work and sent it out, collected their checks and that was it.


It was expensive to publish stuff then. It was expensive to make a movie or a TV show or produce radio too. People went that route because most peopel couldn't afford the resources.

That has changed. The mindset in all the other media industries have changed. Go look at Youtube.

The writing industry is changing too. The writer's need to catch up with that change.

Posted By : Angeline Hawkes - 11/30/2007 12:01 AM
There are all sorts of ways to promote one's work. Postcards, giveaways, contests, REVIEWS, blogs, myspace, journals, websites, message boards, mailers, yahoo groups, business cards, book boards, etc etc.

Vistaprint.com has cool, nicely done products for very little money. You can upload your own book cover image onto a biz card and have website info. These are great to pass out everywhere. I have what we refer to as a "Fan Boy Card", with a b/w sexy photo and info/websites on the back. These FLY off my table and after a convention my website goes nuts with hits.

You can use the postcards to load an image on the front, fade it on the back and feature blurbs from your covers or reviews. These are cool. Christopher Fulbright [hubby] and I have these w/b /w photo of us on the front and blurbs on the back. We sign a lot of these at conventions.

The postcards are also good to stick in an anthology when you're signing the story as a bookmark so the buyer/reader can find your story fast after buying/signing.

Pencils, pens, bookmarks, notepads, magnets can all be had inexpensively.

We attend 2 Dallas/Ft Worth based conventions a year, Howard Days in June, and a Homecoming event at my alma mater annually. Texas Frightmare Weekend has invited us for 2008. Establishing a fan/reader base/audience is essential to moving books.

I do book signings, readings, and high school writing contest judging to promote. There are SO many ways an author can promote and market their work.

Remember, just like ANY other product, your work must be branded and marketed to buyers. There are many ways to make your name familiar and not all of them require a lot of money.

I don't advocate the large purchase of one's books unless you attend a LOT of events and have the potential to move them. Writing is just like any other business and the bottom line is making money. I stock about 10 books a year, more if I sell out before the next event. On my average table, I usually have apprx 15-20 DIFFERENT books/anthologies/novellas/collections/chapbooks...so you can see that for me to stock large quantities of any book would be insane. Any book that is 2 years or older gets marked down or put in what we call a BOOK BUNDLE, and sold for a bargain price. No one wants to see the same old stuff on your table all of the time.


www.angelinehawkes.com
ww.fulbrightandhawkes.com


Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/30/2007 12:05 PM
There has been quite a bit of beneficial information mentioned in this thread - great ideas from all!


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : crystalwizard - 11/30/2007 6:40 PM
Angeline Hawkes said...

Vistaprint.com has cool, nicely done products for very little money.


And their stuff is high quality, too. I've been taking advantage of their 1 free tee-shirt ads, and have gotten several tee-shirts with my book cover on the front for the price of shipping. Excellent quality in both the shirt and the printing on it.

Posted By : von Darkmoor - 11/30/2007 10:43 PM
and I've used them for business cards for several organizations and personal use for years


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : Laura Stamps - 12/3/2007 11:43 AM

Wow, great thread, Ed.  Thanks for starting it!  yeah

Hmm, where to start?  I have been a fulltime writer for almost 20 years now.  I started in this business by self-publishing, which is not unusual for a small press poet.  What is unusual is I majored in art in college and spent 10 years building a business as a painter selling my original paintings, notecards, postcards, posters, and prints of my art before I switched careers and became a writer.  That trained me in a mindset very different from most small press writers.  I saw my career as a business, and you learn really fast if you are going to survive fulltime as an artist that you must HUSTLE!  The galleries won't do it for you.  A few will, most won't.

I also think self-publishing is a fabulous way for a writer to start out.  So many advantages to that.  Mainly, it gives you a chance to build a market and make yourself know to readers and reviewers/editors.  That is important whether you plan to go with an agent and publisher later on.  Why?  Because they all want to know what is your marketing platform, who is your market, how big is it, etc.  If you don't know this stuff they probably won't be interested in you.

Up until 2005 the best way to sell books was through magazine ads, direct mail, and rented mailing lists.  I sold tons of books this way, staggering amounts every year, really, and built a customer list of 12,000 people that grew daily.  But in 2005 these strategies stopped working.  Why?  The internet.  So the last few years I have done tons of testing to find out how to make money selling books through the "new marketing" (which is what I call it). 

These days most of my income comes from royalties and sales from the 4 publishers (3 small press book publishers and 1 major art print publisher) who publish my books and poetry art prints.  Here's what I have learned.  Use direct mail sparingly and make sure what you are doing works, because postage is crazy expensive now and really cuts into your profits.  Retail buyers don't buy books cold now from an ad or a review.  They buy because one of their friends told them about the book and raved about it.  That is a big change from a few years ago.  That means building a presence in the blogging world, forums, Yahoo groups, and on social networking sites are the most important way an author can build an audience now and sell lots of books.  I have tested all kinds of web marketing the last year or so, mainly the kinds of tactics that would make me the most profit with the least amount spent.  Because profit is where you make your money (net sales) not gross sales.

What does my day look like?  I get online at 6:00am every day and market until about 2:30pm.  Then I write, working on my current novel until 5:00pm.  I work fewer hours on Saturday and Sunday online, but I market online 7 days a week.  Yes, I do have a life...husband, house to clean, many many cats to care for.  I just schedule everything.  I once read where a writer said if you spend a lot of time marketing, your writing will suffer.  I don't agree with that.  I have found the time I spend marketing and networking with my readers definitely improves the quality of my writing, because I know exactly what they want from a novel and I can give it to them.  I also read novels in my genre (urban fantasy) every night after dinner.  I want to know what is being published in my market.  But I also must be able to talk with my readers about the books they love by other authors.  It all goes hand in hand now with the new marketing.  These people buy from me because they feel like I am their friend, not just some author "pimping" (I actually saw this term on one of the social networking sites *eek!*) her books.  

I'm always testing, so (as my friends in the business know *grin*) the minute I test something that works really well I will spread the word!  

Happy bookselling! 


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore

Posted By : Dragon Angel - 12/3/2007 12:17 PM
Wow, Laura, Wow.


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.


Posted By : von Darkmoor - 12/3/2007 12:26 PM
I am equally impressed, Laura. Thank you for 'spreading the word,' it is most definitely appreciated.


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : Laura Stamps - 12/3/2007 2:30 PM

Thanks, Dragon Angel and Jason!!

Postcards have been mentioned in this thread, and I forgot to mention them in my other post.  It has been my experience, when it comes to book marketing, that good sales copy will sell many more books than a color photo of the cover.  A great cover grabs people in a bookstore or in a magazine ad, but when it comes to postcards the copy is what sells product.  Because of that I have never used color postcards to sell my books.  And most of my books have been sold through postcard mailings to my customer list and to rented mailing lists.

One of the best marketing investments a writer can make is in a laser printer for your computer that can do duplex printing, meaning it can print on both sides.  I design my postcards on Word, 4-up (4 to a page), run them through my computer printer on 67 pound cover stock, and trim them with a paper trimmer (also a great investment).  They just contain the ordering info for the novel, my contact info, and a blurb about the book.  Before 2005 I would drop several hundred postcards every week to my lists, and sold a lot of books that way.  Now with the new marketing I just mail postcards to my customer list twice a year.  I have sold as many as 3 different books on one postcard, and that worked well in the past and increased the $ amount of each order.  Something you can test with your own books.

I also design a 3-fold brochure flyer on Word and run them through my computer printer on color paper, printed on both sides.  This flyer contains ordering info for the novel, my contact info, blurbs from reviewers, a synopsis of the novel, and the first chapter of the novel.  I always carry a bunch of these novel flyers in my purse and hand them out all the time.  They sell a lot of books for me.  But I have also hired a new book marketing company now to distribute flyers for me.  I mentioned this company elsewhere in this forum...Bohemian Book Marketing (http://www.BohemianBookMarketing.blogspot.com).  Earlier this year I had hired a classified ad blaster for $35/month to place my book ads on 1000+ websites around the web every day.  That worked well for my SEO, but after 7 months of testing this strategy, I found book sales were minimal.  BBM distributes 100 flyers for me every month to bookstores and retail buyers in eastern Canada for $25/month.  I print the flyers on my computer and mail them to her.  The cost is almost the same as the ad blaster, but I started seeing sales the first month with BBM, so I am sticking with this strategy for now (grin). 

It goes without saying a duplex printer will also allow you to publish books of all sizes, from stapled chaps to coil-bound books.  In that case you would just need the appropriate bindery equipment, which I have and bought very inexpensvely at an office supply chain like Staples. 


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore

Posted By : Dragon Angel - 12/3/2007 2:39 PM
Do you create your own poetry books, then?


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.


Posted By : Laura Stamps - 12/3/2007 2:54 PM

In the beginning I published all my poetry books and novels.  Now all my novels and most of my poetry books are published by other small press publishers, and I only publish my Collected Poems (Cats and Chrysanthemums) through my Kittyfeather Press company, which is a large book of over 200 pages.  That one I run out on my duplex printer, trim to book size, and coil bind.  But in the past I have also published smaller stapled poetry chaps and small novellas on my printer. 

BTW, my computer printer is a HP Laser Jet 1320.  Got it at Staples and LOVE it!  :-)

However, I should mention I also buy all of my books from those publishers and sell them through my Kittyfeather Press catalog.  Some of my customers prefer to buy my books this way, so their copies will be personalized by me.  I don't encourage this, because at this point in my career I like to send all my buyers to Amazon, B&N.com, and their local bookstores.  But also selling the books through my catalog gives my customers more options and gives me yet another source of income.


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore

Posted By : crystalwizard - 12/4/2007 12:51 AM
Laura, you ever thought of starting a marketing service?


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print


Posted By : RHFay - 12/4/2007 1:07 AM
Laura Stamps said...

...What does my day look like?  I get online at 6:00am every day and market until about 2:30pm.  Then I write, working on my current novel until 5:00pm.  I work fewer hours on Saturday and Sunday online, but I market online 7 days a week.  Yes, I do have a life...husband, house to clean, many many cats to care for.  I just schedule everything.  I once read where a writer said if you spend a lot of time marketing, your writing will suffer.  I don't agree with that.  I have found the time I spend marketing and networking with my readers definitely improves the quality of my writing, because I know exactly what they want from a novel and I can give it to them.  I also read novels in my genre (urban fantasy) every night after dinner.  I want to know what is being published in my market.  But I also must be able to talk with my readers about the books they love by other authors.  It all goes hand in hand now with the new marketing.  These people buy from me because they feel like I am their friend, not just some author "pimping" (I actually saw this term on one of the social networking sites *eek!*) her books...  

Just with my bit of poetry out there so far, I find that I spend more time with submitting and self-promoting on-line than I do actually composing and writing.  I've slowly started to make contacts with editors and other writers, even if it's just on forums like this.  I feel it's an important part of the overall picture.
 
My involvement on forums certainly inspired me to write a non-fiction article for Doorways magazine.  The non-fiction editor of Doorways posted her call for submissions on the Whispers of Wickedness forum, so I was inspired to answer the call.  I wouldn't have been inspired if I hadn't seen the forum posting about non-fiction articles.
 
My involvement in forums has also led to interest in my artwork.  I ran across Flashing Swords as a potential market through this very forum, and now I'm busy working on art for that publication.  This would have never taken place if I hadn't participated on the SFReaders forum, and posted about some of my recent illustration publications.
 
I post brags and self-promotions where I can, but I also try to become a part of the forum communities.  I just have to be careful not to butt heads with too many authors!  I have a tendency of speaking my mind, even if it's contrary to what many others think.
 
One thing that has helped me tremendously, at least in terms of my art, is my web site.  I've had a few editors who accepted my poetry peruse my site, and then suggest that I also submit art.  Perhaps I could have just submitted illustrations to begin with, but the web site definitely garnered some keen interest.  It led directly to my illustration in the current issue of Champagne Shivers, and more indirectly to the one in Aoife's Kiss.
 
The hard part is to find the time between home schooling my daughter, writing, and composing illustrations.  I try to squeeze in time on the forums in-between everything else.  However, I try to find the time because I feel it is an important part of developing my career.
 
Maybe I'll never turn this into a "real" career, but at least I will work as hard as I can in making something out of my writing and art.        



"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
 

Posted By : Dragon Angel - 12/4/2007 1:46 AM
Nice artwork, btw. Reminds me of old tapestries for some reason.


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.


Posted By : von Darkmoor - 12/4/2007 2:04 AM
nice post as well, RHFay. Continued good luck to you!


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard


Posted By : Laura Stamps - 12/4/2007 8:41 AM
crystalwizard said...
Laura, you ever thought of starting a marketing service?

Actually, I used to do that for many years, but it grew to the point where it was taking up as much time as a fulltime job, and I just can't work two fulltime jobs (which means I had no life...LOL).  So in 2003 I told all my clients I was "retiring" from marketing consulting. 
 
And I've stuck to it, only taking a few editing jobs up until 2005 to help out authors who pleaded with me to the point where I couldn't resist.  But I don't do editing anymore either, because I really only have the time to work fulltime with my own writing career and business.  Now I'm happy to just pass tips along to my writer friends when I come across something that works for me.
 
But thanks for asking!  :-)


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore

Posted By : RHFay - 12/4/2007 12:55 PM
von Darkmoor said...
nice post as well, RHFay. Continued good luck to you!

Thanks to Flashing Swords, I think I will certainly have continued luck with my artwork.  I'm really excited to have the opportunity to do art for Flashing Swords.
 
And I'm not just saying that, I mean it.  The only problem is finding the time to do everything CW wants! smilewinkgrin
 
Publications can lead to other publications, but only if people know about your work.  Being published isn't good enough, people must read your writing, or see your artwork.  Editors can become interested in your work after seeing other work out there, but they must be aware of your work to begin with.
 
Published basically means made available to the public.  It doesn't mean made known to the public.  That's where self-promotion comes in.
 


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
 

Posted By : Dragon Angel - 12/4/2007 11:59 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is a bit easier for artists to be published in science fiction and fantasy then it is for authors. I suspect it is because there are fewer artists.


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.


Posted By : RHFay - 12/5/2007 12:52 PM
Dragon Angel said...
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is a bit easier for artists to be published in science fiction and fantasy then it is for authors. I suspect it is because there are fewer artists.

I think your thought may be correct.  My experience thus far certainly indicates that art is easier to sell.  I actually had one instance of a submission containing a poem with accompanying artwork where the poem was turned down, but the artwork was accepted!
 
There definitely seems to be more money in artwork than in poetry, anyway.
 
Still, an editor must see your work first.  And your chances of success increase dramtically if a submission was solicited, which can only happen if an editor knows about your work already.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
 

Posted By : Constance - 12/5/2007 7:16 PM
It's also easier to assess artwork at a glance. It fits, it doesn't fit, it's exactly what we need, or it'll do. Poetry you actually have to read, think about, consider the theme of the poem, the theme of the issue (if applicable) and a hundred other minute details. It's brain intensive. Art you can often look at and go, "Brain munching aliens and space babes! Cool! I want it!"


Constance

Posted By : crystalwizard - 12/5/2007 11:00 PM
RHFay said...
Dragon Angel said...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is a bit easier for artists to be published in science fiction and fantasy then it is for authors. I suspect it is because there are fewer artists.

I think your thought may be correct. My experience thus far certainly indicates that art is easier to sell. I actually had one instance of a submission containing a poem with accompanying artwork where the poem was turned down, but the artwork was accepted!


There definitely seems to be more money in artwork than in poetry, anyway.



Still, an editor must see your work first. And your chances of success increase dramtically if a submission was solicited, which can only happen if an editor knows about your work already.


You send me that ballade I asked you for and maybe I'll buy your poetry. I just don't want SFku.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print


Posted By : RHFay - 12/6/2007 11:44 AM
crystalwizard said...
You send me that ballade I asked you for and maybe I'll buy your poetry. I just don't want SFku.

Scifaiku and its derivative forms seem to be a hard sell at certain markets.  Some editors seem to like them, some don't.  That's okay, I'm somewhat flexible.

Actually, CW, I was talking specifically about my submission to The Willows.  I sent them a poem when I sent them the illustration "Forest of the Damned".  They liked the art, but didn't like the poem.  The poem ended up getting a revised name and going to DemonMinds.

I've considered doing a ballade.  I looked into the format, it looked interesting at first, but after a bit of experimentation I'm not sure if I truly like that particular form.  I'll have to find time to work on it some and see what I come up with.  Right now home school, my art, and family time have priority over a possible ballade.  It's on my potential "to-do" list, just not near the top.

Thus far, I have certainly received relatively more money for individual illustrations than I have for individual poems.
 
I certainly hope to send Flashing Swords some poems, and maybe a story or two, in the future.  I just need to find the time to come up with something.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
 

Posted By : crystalwizard - 12/6/2007 10:13 PM
RHFay said...

Actually, CW, I was talking specifically about my submission to The Willows. I sent them a poem when I sent them the illustration "Forest of the Damned". They liked the art, but didn't like the poem. The poem ended up getting a revised name and going to DemonMinds.


I knew you weren't talking about me :) I was just taking the opportunity to prod you.

RHFay said...

I've considered doing a ballade. I looked into the format, it looked interesting at first, but after a bit of experimentation I'm not sure if I truly like that particular form.[/quote

How about this form, then:
www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/villanelle.htm

Posted By : RHFay - 12/7/2007 11:59 AM

Hmm, maybe I'll try a villanelle when I get a chance.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
 

Posted By : kaolin fire - 6/26/2008 12:51 AM
Any suggestions for helping authors promote magazines they wind up in? ;) I mean, sure, it's good to post links in blogs and whatnot... but what else? Better yet, how can the magazine help the author help their _friends_ promote? Without the author's friends being too tired of the author trying to promote whatever they happen to be in? :)


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