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| Posted By : RHFay - 12/19/2007 8:06 PM |
Gothic as in art or architecture, that is:
limestone sentinel
cathedral statuary
fearsome gargoyle
It may not be a "real" haiku, since it's not about traditional haiku themes. But it's not really a "scifaiku", "horrorku", or a "fantasyku" either. Thus, I call it a "Gothicku".
I like cathedral gargoyles. I have several little gargoyle statues in my home. Most are based on actual historic examples.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
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| Posted By : Hermit - 12/20/2007 3:50 PM | |
Nice image. Interesting story.
I really need to express at this time, RH, that I am seriously offended by your mutilation of a Japanese artform. Not in writing brief poetry in a style imitative of it, but by bastardizing the NAME by trying jam "ku" on something as though it were a suffix. It seems very disrespectful to me of the artform, and thereby demeaning to the Japanese.
I really need to express at this time, RH, that I am seriously offended by mutilation of this Japanese artform. Not in the writing brief poetry in a style imitative of it, but by bastardizing the NAME by trying to jam "ku" on something as though it were a suffix. It seems very disrespectful to me of the artform, and thereby demeaning to the Japanese.
I'm sure - well, really, I assume - that you aren't intentionally doing it with this in mind. Which is why I'm explaining to you that I feel this way. And I'm doing it publically not because I mean it to be a personal chastisement to anyone, but to everyone commiting this atrocity. Which is to say: This is not a personal criticism against you; it is an outcry against those who began and who use it. Find another name, for the sake of honor, respect, and simple old common courtesy!
Anyone writing in Euro forms doesn't call anything by any other than the generic name: sonnet, villanelle, sestina, pantoum, ballade, ballad, ode, etc. So why this mutilation of this one form?
Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin!
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| Posted By : RHFay - 12/20/2007 6:33 PM | You know what? I was just following the pattern set up by the forms "scifaiku" and "horrorku". I certainly didn't invent these terms; someone else did!
And by the way, doesn't English borrow and "bastardize" from other languages all the time?
Frankly, I find the wholesale slaughter of the English language that I hear on the street to be offensive, but that's the trend in popular culture.
I was just following a trend amongst speculative poets.
And to be quite honest, I'm rather offended by your remarks. I was just trying to share one of my fun little works with the other members here on SFReader. If this is the reception these works will receive, if this is the reaction I will provoke, I will no longer share my works in this venue!
To be blunt, I don't have to put up with this garbage!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
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| Posted By : Daniel - 12/20/2007 6:36 PM | Gentlemen, please, we are *all* butchers.
That is human nature.
"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."
Daniel |
| Posted By : Hermit - 12/20/2007 6:58 PM | My apologies. I misstated myself. It was not meant to be a personal criticism aimed at you. I've edited - since it won't let me quote myself and amend it.
Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin! |
| Posted By : Daniel - 12/20/2007 7:23 PM | I'm feeling self-conscious now because I fully inend on butchering the "ghazal" form. How could I not by writing it in English? It is a Persian form; by adapting it some "butchery" will undoubtedly take place.
Ghazal-ku?
LOL
My issue with RH's poem isn't about the Gothiku thingie but about the poem itself. I see no figurative language, no metaphor -- for me, figurative language is poetry, even without scansion or form, per se.
"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."
Daniel |
| Posted By : Hermit - 12/20/2007 7:47 PM |
Daniel said...I'm feeling self-conscious now because I fully inend on butchering the "ghazal" form. How could I not by writing it in English? It is a Persian form; by adapting it some "butchery" will undoubtedly take place. Ghazal-ku? Now we're dealing with the adultrous crossbreeding of two offended cultures! Not to mention a mixed metaphor fallacy!  LOL My issue with RH's poem isn't about the Gothiku thingie but about the poem itself. I see no figuartive language, no metaphor -- for me, figurative language is poetry, even without scansion or form, per se.
I don't know about that, Dan. Isn't enactive language a sort of figurative language? His poem enacts the sentinel idiom. So it sits there comfortably with its menacing grimace - a metaphor for the clergy! There's your figure. Found it. Ha. What say you?
Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin!
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| Posted By : RHFay - 12/20/2007 8:19 PM |
Hermit said...
My apologies. I misstated myself. It was not meant to be a personal criticism aimed at you. I've edited - since it won't let me quote myself and amend it.
Okay, I overreacted again. Sorry. Me bad.
However, I didn't know what else to call my little mutation. It's not really a haiku, but it is based on the haiku form. And it's not really one of the usual derivative forms either.
It's just something that came to me one day a few weeks ago, while I was working on a series of "horrorku". (Sorry, but that's what others - including the editor that accepted the series - call them.)
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
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| Posted By : RHFay - 12/20/2007 8:29 PM |
Daniel said...I'm feeling self-conscious now because I fully inend on butchering the "ghazal" form. How could I not by writing it in English? It is a Persian form; by adapting it some "butchery" will undoubtedly take place. Ghazal-ku? LOL My issue with RH's poem isn't about the Gothiku thingie but about the poem itself. I see no figuartive language, no metaphor -- for me, figurative language is poetry, even without scansion or form, per se.
Would "limestone sentinel" be a subtle form of figurative language? I think it may, but then again it could be argued that medieval builders did create gargoyles with the real intent of guarding against evil. Still, a limestone statue isn't really a sentinel in the sense that it stands guard to challenge all comers, but it is standing as if watching (another meaning of the word sentinel).
I wonder, would it be better if sentinel were replaced with guardian (a slightly different meaning)?
limestone guardian
cathedral statuary
fearsome gargoyle
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
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| Posted By : Daniel - 12/20/2007 8:32 PM | Okay, I overreacted again.
***
You're a poet! That's all poets do: overreact to *everything*. LOL
All artists are emotional about their work like mothers are with kids.
But you have to detach from this emotional protection sometimes and just take it "straight" in order to make progress.
Myself: I don't need any sanction for "butchery;" it's as instinctive as ambition.
Who cares what others might say of my Frankensteins? There are meant to be monsters, after-all, and meant to unhinge and terrify the reader.
I say: lure them in with beauty and then smack them in the face with apocalypse. That's all they deserve anyway!
"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."
Daniel |
| Posted By : Hermit - 12/20/2007 8:34 PM |
RHFay said...
Daniel said...I'm feeling self-conscious now because I fully inend on butchering the "ghazal" form. How could I not by writing it in English? It is a Persian form; by adapting it some "butchery" will undoubtedly take place. Ghazal-ku? LOL My issue with RH's poem isn't about the Gothiku thingie but about the poem itself. I see no figuartive language, no metaphor -- for me, figurative language is poetry, even without scansion or form, per se.
Would "limestone sentinel" be a subtle form of figurative language? I think it may, but then again it could be argued that medieval builders did create gargoyles with the real intent of guarding against evil. Still, a limestone statue isn't really a sentinel in the sense that it stands guard to challenge all comers, but it is standing as if watching (another meaning of the word sentinel).
I wonder, would it be better if sentinel were replaced with guardian (a slightly different meaning)?
limestone guardian
cathedral statuary
fearsome gargoyle
I like sentinel better. Limestone? It mixes strangely with cathedral for me. How about marble or granite? Limestone is for sculptors more than architects, isn't it? Serious question. I'm neither. Not even a mason.
Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin!
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| Posted By : RHFay - 12/20/2007 8:57 PM | Well, I know cathedrals were built of limestone. The statuary may actually have been something like Purbeck Marble, which is a semi-metamorphosed limestone, not quite a true marble.
According to Wikipedia, Purbeck Marble was used for columns, slab panels, and flooring in almost all the cathedrals of southern England.
At least some of the knightly effigies in the Temple Church in London are made of Purbeck Marble.
Here's an interesting bit about cathedral materials from Wikipedia (from the entry Gothic Architecture):
A further regional influence was the availability of materials. In France, limestone was readily available in several grades, the very fine white limestone of Caen being favoured for sculptural decoration. England had coarse limestone, red sandstone as well as dark green Purbeck marble which was often used for architectural features.
In Northern Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Baltic countries and northern Poland local building stone was unavailable but there was a strong tradition of building in brick. The resultant style, Brick Gothic, is called "Backsteingotik" in Germany and Scandinavia.
In Italy, stone was used for fortifications, but brick was preferred for other buildings. Because of the extensive and varied deposits of marble, many buildings were faced in marble, or were left with undecorated facades so that this might be achieved at a later date.
The availability of timber also influenced the style of architecture. It is thought that the magnificent hammer-beam roofs of England were devised as a direct response to the lack of long straight seasoned timber by the end of the Medieval period, when forests had been decimated not only for the construction of vast roofs but also for ship building.[7][9]
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
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| Posted By : Hermit - 12/20/2007 9:01 PM | Cool. Very interesting. My studies in geology tend to be more toward the gemstone side, so this is a nice addition to my knowledge-base. Thanks for posting.
Literarily speaking: More prolific than sin!
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| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 12/22/2007 11:34 PM |
Daniel said...
Who cares what others might say of my Frankensteins? There are meant to be monsters, after-all, and meant to unhinge and terrify the reader.
I say: lure them in with beauty and then smack them in the face with apocalypse. This should be your signature, Daniel!  
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| Posted By : Daniel - 12/23/2007 2:25 PM | This should be your signature, Daniel!
***
Nah, too "Slipstream." LOL
It'd work for China Mieville, though!
"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."
Daniel |
| Posted By : Bitter Irony - 3/19/2008 1:32 PM | Ha-ha, I'm jumping in pretty late here, but...figurative language and metaphor don't belong in haiku (or scifaiku, or horrorku, or gothicku, or whatever). Yes, to an extent, the comparison between the two images of the haiku may be close enough to be considered metaphor (for example, Basho's autumn evening - a crow on a bare branch), but really, the purpose of haiku is to present an image as it is.
Lack of figurative language isn't a problem in this haiku. If I were offering suggestions [and yes, I am offering them  ], I would a) find a stronger phrase for the first two lines of the haiku, instead of simply naming the same image twice and b) remove "fearsome" from the last line to avoid judging the image.
watching
from cathedral parapets...
gargoyle
From even the greatest of horrors, Irony is seldom absent.
~H.P. Lovecraft, The Shunned House
And here I begin my foray into the dark and deadly waters of e-zine editing...
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| Posted By : Hermit - 3/19/2008 3:12 PM | Well, actually . . . I could offer the argument that figurative language and metaphor do belong in Western haiku precisely because the haiku deals with concrete reality. The western mind, very generally speaking of course, is conditioned to view reality in ways the zen find illusory. However, reality is to us as we perceive it. And this is the purpose of all verbal arts, though some of us forget it, to analyze and catalog our expressions of reality.
Of course, being the pluralist I am, I believe both viewpoints equally valid. 
Somehow I think you took some of the weight out of this one. For me, your revision takes some of the weight of stone out of the experience. And that weight is very important to me, as it gives the gargoyle a far heavier presence and menace. Don't get me wrong, I like and appreciate your poem. All I'm saying is that Mr. Fay's version had a different experience for me, one more . . . shadowed. I do agree with losing the "fearsome" in favor of something more . . . *groans* . . . concrete. Perhaps limestone or schist or whatever the thing's carved from.
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Bitter Irony - 3/19/2008 7:44 PM | MysticWino--good point about the weight of the stone adding something. The vauge and waterer-down meance of my "watching" really doesn't compare with Mr. Fay's limestone. I just didn't like the way all three lines seemed to describe the exact same image.
Metaphor and similie...well, my own hasty "revision" used a metaphor, so obviously I'm not against them on principle. But they should not be a requirement, at least not the way most western poets think of them. If the poet sees the strawberry as another pink tounge, all right: but I'm certain the haiku poet didn't take one look out the window and think "this fog is like a cat." That's not the best way I can phrase it, I know, as it implies I'm against desk haiku. I'm not. I just think it would benefit haiku poets to focus on their image, whatever that may be to them, rather than on how they can best manipulate language.
Though I do enjoy a good haiku pun. I wonder if that's been done often: a haiku pun with a horror theme? Must keep my eyes open...
From even the greatest of horrors, Irony is seldom absent.
~H.P. Lovecraft, The Shunned House
And here I begin my foray into the dark and deadly waters of e-zine editing...
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| Posted By : Thirdy Lopez - 3/20/2008 5:49 PM | Richard, for the record, I prefer sentinel over guardian. ;) Cool haiku, buddy.
Aurelio Rico Lopez III aka "Thirdy" has had fiction featured in COLD FLESH (Hellbound Books), THE BLACKEST DEATH I, II, and III (Black Death Books), SPORTY SPEC: GAMES OF THE FANTASTIC (Raven Electrick Ink), STAR-SPANGLED ZOMBIE (Maniac Press), RAW MEAT (Sideshow Press), SHADOW BOX (Brimstone Press), TRIP THE LIGHT HORRIFIC (RAGE machine Books), DEAD MEN (AND WOMEN) WALKING (Bards and Sages), and THE BOOK OF SHADOWS VOL. I (Brimstone Press). His poems have appeared in Mythic Delirium, Star*Line, Dark Animus, Goblin Fruit, Scifaikuest, Electric Velocipede, Sybil's Garage, The Horror Express, Down In the Cellar, and elsewhere. |
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