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| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 8/21/2005 8:25 AM | I'm interested to hear from S&S fans just what your thoughts are regarding the role of magic/supernatural/occult within S&S. Is it a prerequisite to the genre? Can there ever be a true S&S story without any element of the fantastical present? Or is it simply a limitation or even a hindrance to the field?
My personal opinion is that S&S needs that supernatural element as much as it needs good solid driving pace. Of course the term 'sorcery', like the term 'sword', merely highlights a general aspect of S&S; not every S&S tale needs a sorcerer just as not every tale requires a swordsman. But most any substitute you care to name, be that a mythical monster, a manifest god, a magical weapon or whathaveyou, seems to be present in most all S&S that I've read. In the few cases where an 'S&S' tale was lacking any of these things I've found it to be little more than a piece of historical fiction with made up names (there are exceptions as always). Frankly, if an S&S tale is not going to have any element of the fantastic in it, why write it?
Then again, maybe the mere fact of a constructed milieu and exotic locales is enough to satisfy the fantasy aspect of most readers. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/21/2005 8:35 AM | But how much of an element do you need to make it S&S? Is it enough to just have a setting that reeks of possibilities beyond the normal? Are temples, priests and cults, superstitions treated as real, and the like enough for S&S to be present?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : trey - 8/21/2005 8:38 AM | I think mostly, there would need to be some sort of fantastic element, though not neccessarily sorcery, per se.
It does raise the question of what genre a work would be in which was essentially an adventure story set in a "secondary world" or fictional world location. I can't think of a story of that type off the top of my head, but there is no reason one couldn't be written. I suppose, if you implied that magic existed in the world, then it could be S&S still, otherwise, it would be some sort of science fiction. Certainly if the setting was explcitly another planet it would be called Sword and Planet. |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 8/21/2005 8:51 AM | Mike asked how much of a supernatural element is necessary to make a sword-and-sorcery story a sword-and-sorcery story. To me, the essence is that the supernatural represents the unknown. If a fantasy world is dripping with magic, so much so that its inhabitants give it little more thought than we give the weather, then you haven't caught the spirit of sword-and-sorcery, at least to my thinking. When you introduce magic, monsters, curses, strange lands, spirits, etc. that go beyond the "norm" for your characters, then you've hit on the right amount. Traditionally, heroic fantasy pits its heroes against the great unknown, whatever that may be. The heroes, braver tan most or forced by circumstances not faced by others, must confront that unknown -- and they don't always triumph.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Others?
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble
Fantasy writer with stories appearing soon in "Flashing Swords" and "Amazing Journeys Magazine" |
| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 8/21/2005 8:56 AM | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
But how much of an element do you need to make it S&S? Is it enough to just have a setting that reeks of possibilities beyond the normal? Are temples, priests and cults, superstitions treated as real, and the like enough for S&S to be present?
Mike
I think an S&S tale needs to have something beyond the ordinary, something that differentiates it fundamentally from the real world. Simply substituting place names, countries, etc for made up ones, or swapping a rampaging elephant for a rampaging oliphaunt is not enough IMO. In fact it strikes me as somewhat pointless. As for merely hinting at things beyond the ordinary, I think that's totally acceptable provided it makes something of an impact to the main plot. Leiber's 'Claws From the Night' for instance had very little supernatural in it save a passing remark to do with a bird-like goddess and a moment towards the end. Yet it is undoubtedly a prime example of S&S. Its unusual threat, its mysterious sense of the supernatural, and yes, its exotic location, all contributed towards the 'sorcery' aspect. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/21/2005 9:06 AM | I don't believe that S&S requires a 'made up' setting. It just requires magic operating on some level and a certain lack of sophisticated technology. Solomon Kane? Africa is a very real place though Solomon's is a bit different than most people find ours.
I think that if the supernatural is assumed real that that is enough, assuming everything else fits. Like obsenity I know S&S when I see it.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 8/21/2005 9:06 AM | quote:
Originally posted by Red Viper
To me, the essence is that the supernatural represents the unknown. If a fantasy world is dripping with magic, so much so that its inhabitants give it little more thought than we give the weather, then you haven't caught the spirit of sword-and-sorcery, at least to my thinking. When you introduce magic, monsters, curses, strange lands, spirits, etc. that go beyond the "norm" for your characters, then you've hit on the right amount. Traditionally, heroic fantasy pits its heroes against the great unknown, whatever that may be. The heroes, braver tan most or forced by circumstances not faced by others, must confront that unknown -- and they don't always triumph.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Many of the Conan stories, when deconstructed and analyzed, could be said to be quasi-SF tales. 'Rogues in the House' had a monster that could have come straight out of another Conan, Conan Doyle's, 'The Lost World'. Yet hints of otherworldly sorcery, or were-creatures and other weirdness were perfectly hinted at to give the overall feel of a world beyond the ordinary.
|
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/21/2005 9:24 AM | Many of the elements that make up a S&S story are also present in a Mythos story, yet there are very few stories that clearly fit both catagories. In fact if you accept some of the definitions sometimes put forth by adherints of each type of fiction there are none. Those definitions being something like "a story that reads like a badly written Howardian pastiche is S&S, whilst a Mythos story must read like a badly written Lovecraftian pastiche!"
Of course such a definition would be bull____. Just as it takes more than a hero in a loincloth with a sword and a villan in ornate robes to make a story S&S, it also takes less. Its almost an attitude. If Doyle's professor Challenger were less a scientist and more a freeboooting mercinary, and with a few less guns, _The Lost World_ could be an S&S story. Certainly a story set in exactly the same place, featuring a conquistidore, could be.
I think its important that we don't define the genre into a corner. Genre's are big spaces, really. Lots of room in the tent. Otherwise we rapidly approach the headspace of exclusion, where anything different doesn't fit. When that is acceptable the genre's dead-no new stuff, just rehashes of the old stuff.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : nikolai - 8/21/2005 9:37 AM | | There's a literary genre called the "fantastic", which isn't fantasy as we would understand it - but has elements which could be interpreted as either natural or supernatural. An example is the ghost story "The Turn of the Screw", the ghosts could be real or they could just in the minds of the characters. I think you could certainly do a S&S story like this, walking the thin line between realism and magic, where both explainations could be possible. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/21/2005 9:44 AM | Nickolai,
Yes, or better still, where both explanations are unimportant. You managed to cut off its head, who acres if the monster was a prehistoric throwback, a sorcerously summoned being or a radioactive mutant? What difference does it make? Unless the writer decides to make it make a difference it won't.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 8/21/2005 10:20 AM | Quoting Mike: I think its important that we don't define the genre into a corner. Genre's are big spaces, really. Lots of room in the tent. Otherwise we rapidly approach the headspace of exclusion, where anything different doesn't fit. When that is acceptable the genre's dead-no new stuff, just rehashes of the old stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen, brother!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble
Fantasy writer with stories appearing soon in "Flashing Swords" and "Amazing Journeys Magazine" |
| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 8/21/2005 4:04 PM | quote:
Originally posted by nikolai
There's a literary genre called the "fantastic", which isn't fantasy as we would understand it - but has elements which could be interpreted as either natural or supernatural. An example is the ghost story "The Turn of the Screw", the ghosts could be real or they could just in the minds of the characters. I think you could certainly do a S&S story like this, walking the thin line between realism and magic, where both explainations could be possible.
quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Yes, or better still, where both explanations are unimportant. You managed to cut off its head, who acres if the monster was a prehistoric throwback, a sorcerously summoned being or a radioactive mutant? What difference does it make? Unless the writer decides to make it make a difference it won't.
I'm a big fan of the old horror classics. 'The Willows' and 'Turn of the Screw' are both epitomies of subtle supernatural horror at its very finest, perfectly capturing a sense of the world we know shimmering ever upon another deeper world of the weird.
I'm not sure if the type of writing that made these stories so powerful - where hints are built up slowly like a simmering pot of soup - lends itself well to the relatively short and snappy S&S form though. Rather, I think the ambiguity of these tales could definitely be employed more. The supernatural is, after all, the unknown. It is by its nature boundless and not subject to the whims of convention. What may be real and merely psychological is often irrelevant and blurred to the protagonists as regards the furthering of the plot. As erazmus says, casual explanations cheapen the experience and often add little to the plot when all's said and done.
A more mature approach to the weird is certainly something to strive for, IMO. Much of the best S&S I've read has been characterized by a subtle and deft handling of the unknown (in whatever form that may be) and the protagonist's subsequent responses to that, and I certainly think it's assinine to try and categorically define just what form of the weird is acceptable or just what percentage must be present within every S&S tale to 'fulfil the quotient'. Certainly not what I was implying with this thread.
I do, however, think it's interesting to discuss just what role the weird has within S&S beyond the mere token wizard/troll/hypermcguffin level. Is it only ever to be used as the cool factor to draw in the readers? Or does it share a deeper place within the core of the S&S form, as inextricably linked to the writing as are driving pace and action? While I realize that there will always be a certain inherent brashness in the handling of supernatural within S&S, I certainly don't think that automatically relegates us to fireball throwing wizards and mundane cosmic beasties shunted out into the spotlight time and again like tired circus performers. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/21/2005 4:24 PM | I must admit I have a gripe with sub-sub catagory fiction markets. A little one, anyway. Narrowness of thought. Along with sword and sorcery I also love fiction of the Cthulu mythos. Reading much of what gets put out in this you'd think they were unrelated but I know better. Robert E. Howard, H.P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith were buds who exchanged ideas a great deal and it showed in their work both directly and indirectly. Smith is where the genres often overlap and he did more than just crib a few names and loan a couple of more to H.P.L.'s work. I think a writer could be no better served in either genre to use the essence of what works in one to enhance his efforts in another.
I wouldn't want to write like H.P. Lovecraft, his story telling style isn't particularly suited to todays readers and he seldom had much physical action. I love the situations he created and I've always wanted to do some work with similar situations only involving men of action. Rats in the Walls or Pickmans Model becomes very different if you involve a two fisted detective or hard boiled cop. The Call of Cthulhu told from the perspective of the soldiers and FBI men would be a heck of an action story.
Likewise I think his handling of the arcane would work in a Sword and Sorcery setting. The cult of B'Mouth or any of the great old ones, or a more Derlithian take on Ithaqua would be a wonderful antagaonist for a mighty thewed warrior or exiled wizard-king to deal with.
Unfortunatly while Flashing Swords would probably go for a well written piece like I mention above most of the "Lovecraftian" markets seem alergic to stories with a more kinetic take on dealing with the unknown. I seldom see a story like that in them and when I do its often by a 'bigger name' author they're lucky to get. I haven't been able to get the feel for the nineteen twenties and thirties style of story setting they seem to like and what I end up with smacks of Pastiche work in the worse way.
I'd love to see an anthology of stories combining the salient elements of the two catagories, S&S and 'Mythos', in one weird volume. _Swords against Shadows_, sort of.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 8/21/2005 5:08 PM | For me Lovecraft's stories worked so well precisely because the protagonist was a weak sensitive type of wildly imaginative disposition. Were he a macho man's man I think the stories would have lost a hell of a lot of their charm. Saying that, William Hope Hodgson often had some pretty tough main characters in his fiction, which was most decidedly proto-Lovecraftian. In 'House on the Borderland' when pig-fiends attack the man's house, instead of huddling in a corner praying for them to go away, he takes out his gun and barricades the house, whilst 'The Boats of the Glen Carrig' could almost be a S&S novella were it not for the stilted tone and principal emphasis on horror. So I agree it could definitely work.
CAS was great and all, but I sometimes felt his verbosity and word-play got in the way of the actual story. One better example I can think of who melded Lovecraftian horror with straight up S&S was C.L. Moore. Her Jirel of Joirey and Northwest Smith tales have some superb examples of otherworldly horror within them. One in particular that I recall (but not the name unfortunately) was a piece about an intercosmic being manifested as a whistling tree. Very weird stuff. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/21/2005 5:45 PM | Jay,
Yes C.L. Moore is a better example of what I'm trying to get at. And yes Lovecrafts protagonists do lend his work a certain charm all its own but heavens; bookish nerdy shut ins can't be the only people who ever encounter the edges of the old ones world!
I've never spend much time of Hodgson's work, I see I'll have to repair that deficientcy.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : AndyBow - 8/22/2005 2:51 PM | For some tales of heroes overcoming HPL creatures, try Brian Lumley's (of the Necroscope series fame) Titus Crow series of novels originally published in the early to late 70s, in order:
The Burrowers Beneath
The Transition Of Titus Crow
Clock Of Dreams
Spawn Of The Winds
In The Moons Of Borea
Elysia (also has Lumleey's Dreamland 2 adventurers in it (see below))
and The Compleat Crow (1987) (short stories).
These stories take place in contemporary times.
For s&s stories with HPL ceatures, Lumley wrote another series of novels about 2 contemporary adventurers who are transported to HPL's Dreamland (s&s setting), where they battle some of HPL's weird creations and even meet Randolph Carter (HPL's original Dreamland traveler), among others. In order:
Hero Of Dreams
Ship Of Dreams
Mad Moon Of Dreams
Elysia (also has Titus Crow in it)
Iced On Aran (short stories)
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/22/2005 3:30 PM | Andy,
Thanks a lot. I have heard of Lumley's S&S work but never really seen it. Now I have some titles to look for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : baritsu6 - 8/22/2005 4:05 PM | andy, i remember khai of ancient khem [ lumley] being sword and sorcery--remember this?--ralph
ralph grasso |
| Posted By : jonesha - 8/22/2005 5:00 PM | I've got that one around here some place. It didn't grab me when I started, but I always meant to give it another shot.
This is a great thread. I'm slammed with the Lamb editing or I'd be here participating more often. I've got a nearly complete article on writing sword and sorcery--with Chris Hocking and Ryan Harvey-- that echoes some of what's said here and I'll look forward to discussing it with you all once I get a chance to punch it up a little.
Have any of you managed to catch the new animated series on Nickelodeon titled "The Last Air Bender?" Snazzzy little show with good writing, concept, and animation. long story arcs. Definitely sword and sorcery with a unique Asian flare.
Best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : Kuroboshii - 8/22/2005 5:20 PM | Howard wrote: "with Chris Hocking and Ryan Harvey"
Do you mean John Hocking, Chris Heath, or someone else I haven't heard of [;)]?
Sean T. M. Stiennon (AKA Suuran Songforge)
For information about me, see my author page at www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon. |
| Posted By : trey - 8/22/2005 5:21 PM | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
Have any of you managed to catch the new animated series on Nickelodeon titled "The Last Air Bender?" Snazzzy little show with good writing, concept, and animation. long story arcs. Definitely sword and sorcery with a unique Asian flare.
I got it once by accident, but have been TiVo-ing episodes since then. It is a good show. I tend to think of it as wuxia-lite...but I suppose S&S with an Asian flare is apt.
My only complaint is that it would be better if it wwas done a little more "adult" (less cutesy animals for instance). |
| Posted By : jonesha - 8/22/2005 5:22 PM | John C. Hocking, aka Chris Hocking. Sorry about that.
Best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/22/2005 5:32 PM | I get a good deal of inspiration for my S&S from old 'historical fantasy' kung-fu movies. Thank god for the Wu Tang collection!
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : AndyBow - 8/22/2005 5:41 PM | quote:
Originally posted by baritsu6
andy, i remember khai of ancient khem [ lumley] being sword and sorcery--remember this?--ralph
ralph grasso
Yeah, Ralph, I noticed it in my book database list but I was focusing more on HPL-s&s. As far as I can tell, Khai was his only other s&s other than the Dreamland tales.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : AndyBow - 8/22/2005 5:52 PM | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Andy,
Thanks a lot. I have heard of Lumley's S&S work but never really seen it. Now I have some titles to look for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
Michael, for the Dreamlands s&s series, I recommend getting the trade paperback (1st edition) pub by Ganley (Weirdbook editor) from the mid- to late 80s. It contains some great interior art by Koszowski, Corbin, etc. Abebooks.com is one place to go.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/22/2005 6:19 PM | Andy,
Thanks, but with my budget and temperment I just wait until I hunt it down in a local used book store. We have several great ones here (Colorado Springs) and I seldom have to wait more than a few months to find what I'm looking for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : AndyBow - 8/23/2005 7:07 AM | Michael, I noticed that abebooks.com has some of the Dreamland trade paperbacks for $4-6 or so. Also, it usually costs about $2-3 for shipping (however, no tax). This might be a good backup for you if your local book stores don't have some of the books.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : baritsu6 - 10/16/2005 3:53 AM | i have some dreamlands for sale [ very good condition] let me know [ i am reducing my shell space] the price will be fair , if anyone is interested---regards, ralph
ralph grasso |
| Posted By : Gil - 10/21/2005 6:18 AM | I have been considering the various arguments in this thread for some time now. It’s been a fantastic discussion. I wonder if Erazmus’ comments about Professor Challenger and the “weak” protagonists preferred by Lovecraft haven’t identified something critical to the genre. Sword and Sorcery protagonists tend to be decisive and lean toward physical action. Is this characteristic more important than sorcery?
As an example of the point, I’m trying to make, please consider Howard’s Lamb’s Viking story in the first issue of Flashing Swords. This is a purely historical setting. I didn’t notice any supernatural elements but it still feels like sword and sorcery.
To put it another way, if a Conan story depicted purely mundane action (no sorcery or fantastical monsters) in which he rescued a woman from a powerful warlord, would it still be sword and sorcery?
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story “sword and sorcery”?
|
| Posted By : AndyBow - 10/21/2005 8:40 AM | quote:
Originally posted by Gil
I have been considering the various arguments in this thread for some time now. It’s been a fantastic discussion. I wonder if Erazmus’ comments about Professor Challenger and the “weak” protagonists preferred by Lovecraft haven’t identified something critical to the genre. Sword and Sorcery protagonists tend to be decisive and lean toward physical action. Is this characteristic more important than sorcery?
As an example of the point, I’m trying to make, please consider Howard’s Lamb’s Viking story in the first issue of Flashing Swords. This is a purely historical setting. I didn’t notice any supernatural elements but it still feels like sword and sorcery.
To put it another way, if a Conan story depicted purely mundane action (no sorcery or fantastical monsters) in which he rescued a woman from a powerful warlord, would it still be sword and sorcery?
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story “sword and sorcery”?
Welcome to the group, Gil.
To clarify my actual thoughts in this area, first let me correct one thing in your post. The author of the Viking story was Harold Lamb, not Howard (you were probably thinking ahead to your comments about Robert E. Howard (REH)). Actually, you were close to the fact that Lamb was one of the early writers who did influence REH's writing.
Using the Grand Master, REH, as an example, he wrote many historical adventure stories (which we at the sword-and-sorcery site, http://www.swordandsorcery.org/ , call "swashbuckling historicals"). These stories involved Vikings (not to be confused with Lamb's), Crusaders, and other adventurers in a predominately sword-oriented society but without any sorcery of any kind. These had the same fast-paced, action-oriented style as his Conan tales, but are not considered sword-and-sorcery --- just great historical action tales.
I've reviewed some of these types of histroical swashbucklers in my Forgotten Stories column, such as: the Falcon series http://www.swordandsorcery.org/swordsmen-falcon1.asp ;
and the Casca series (the only "sorcery" or supernatural element in this series is that Casca is a type of immortal soldier) http://www.swordandsorcery.org/swordsmen-casca.asp .
About your theoretical question about a non-sorcery Conan tale (which I don't think has been written yet) --- if I was making a list of sword-and-sorcery stories, I would include this non-sorcery Conan story only because it's part of a series that is otherwise totally sword-and-sorcery.
To see how interchangeable the sword-and-sorcery genre is with the swashbuckling historical, when L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter were editing and writing the Conan series back in the 1960s and 70s, they'd take an REH swashbuckling historical, which may even have occurred in modern times (1930s), and change the hero's name to Conan, add some sorcerous elements and some minor sections, and turn it into a Conan story. Marvel comics in the 70s and on would do a similar thing in their Conan comics.
To sum it up, in my opinion, the only difference between a sword-and-sorcery tale and an historical swashbuckler is whether the story has any sorcery in it.
Go to the Flashing Swords Guidelines by Howard Jones (yeah, another Howard -- just to make it more confusing [;)] !), and scroll down toward the bottom for more info in this area http://www.swordandsorcery.org/guidelines.asp .
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : Gil - 10/21/2005 9:37 AM | Thanks Andy,
Your comments are both interesting and educational.I have always enjoyed sword and sorcery, but it is only relatively recently that I have begun to think seriously about what distinguishes this genre from others.
It seems to me that S&S is a component of a fantasy core that initially attracted myself and many of my friends to fantasy literature, but which has largely dropped out of the fantasy short fiction market. The basic western medieval fantasy, usually, but not necessarily, with magic and/or fantasy creatures, makes up another portion of that "missing" fantasy core.
I confess it doesn't really make sense to me that these "traditional" fantasies have dropped out of many markets. There is clearly interest out there or else publishers would not be printing numerous novels in these areas each year. But big name magazines such as F&SF and Realms of Fantasy tend to keep their distance from the traditional approach.
By the way, thank you for catching my error in recording Harold Lamb's name. It's embarrassing, but as I often race off to look up works I see on this forum, I would hate to be responsible for sending someone else in the wrong direction.
Also by the way, your reviews were well worth reading and I strongly recommend anyone else reading this thread to follow your links to them. Thanks for bringing them to my attention. |
| Posted By : AndyBow - 10/21/2005 3:06 PM | quote:
Originally posted by Gil
Thanks Andy,
Your comments are both interesting and educational.I have always enjoyed sword and sorcery, but it is only relatively recently that I have begun to think seriously about what distinguishes this genre from others.
It seems to me that S&S is a component of a fantasy core that initially attracted myself and many of my friends to fantasy literature, but which has largely dropped out of the fantasy short fiction market. The basic western medieval fantasy, usually, but not necessarily, with magic and/or fantasy creatures, makes up another portion of that "missing" fantasy core.
I confess it doesn't really make sense to me that these "traditional" fantasies have dropped out of many markets. There is clearly interest out there or else publishers would not be printing numerous novels in these areas each year. But big name magazines such as F&SF and Realms of Fantasy tend to keep their distance from the traditional approach.
By the way, thank you for catching my error in recording Harold Lamb's name. It's embarrassing, but as I often race off to look up works I see on this forum, I would hate to be responsible for sending someone else in the wrong direction.
Also by the way, your reviews were well worth reading and I strongly recommend anyone else reading this thread to follow your links to them. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.
Gil, if you haven't already, read the numerous topics in this Discussion Group for many ideas on this and related subjects.
Also, reading the various topics in the sword-and-sorcery site, http://www.swordandsorcery.org/ , is also very informative, and enjoyable.
Thanks for the kudos on my reviews. I created the Forgotten Stories column to inform readers about some of the stories from the past that I recommend and that haven't been reprinted since then.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : baritsu6 - 10/22/2005 7:55 AM | members,the thread to me is very interesting---andy and howard give great ideas on what sword and sorcery should be. many individuals do not understand why they like howard's writings and then go out and read other s and s authors and are not satisfied. the answer eluded me for a bit, it turned [ imho] out it was darkness, noir. you can have a decent sword and sorcery story and for what it is worth , without the darkness it is not thrilling enough. this is why howards historicals are good and why with a magian, demon or lost race thrown into them , they become sword and sorcery. howard just had that knack. other pulp genres had writers that had noir, darkness----1]hero type [ the spider] norvell page2] westerns 1]gordon sherrifths 2] h.a. derosso 3] phillip ketchum --mystery--hammett, cain and others---i can easily be kept awake late at night reading these guys that are not s and s because of the way the story is written , not the genre----so even if a story falls in howard jones excellent criteria for s and s , to me it lacks tha dark, noir feeling that howard gave when SPUN A YARN.------REGARDS, RALPH
ralph grasso |
| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 10/22/2005 8:00 PM | quote:
Originally posted by Gil
I have been considering the various arguments in this thread for some time now. It's been a fantastic discussion. I wonder if Erazmus' comments about Professor Challenger and the "weak" protagonists preferred by Lovecraft haven't identified something critical to the genre. Sword and Sorcery protagonists tend to be decisive and lean toward physical action. Is this characteristic more important than sorcery?
As an example of the point, I'm trying to make, please consider Howard's Lamb's Viking story in the first issue of Flashing Swords. This is a purely historical setting. I didn't notice any supernatural elements but it still feels like sword and sorcery.
To put it another way, if a Conan story depicted purely mundane action (no sorcery or fantastical monsters) in which he rescued a woman from a powerful warlord, would it still be sword and sorcery?
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story "sword and sorcery"?
Good questions. I think a lot of this discussion boils down to the fact that the term 'sorcery' is not a definite term. Everyone can identify an action-oriented story, the Sword aspect, from a mile off; but a story about magic is always going to be hard to define simply due to the nebulous nature of the fantastic. I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but I think it's important to discuss just what is meant when we use the term 'sorcery.' For me the term denotes weirdness. Stories that can evoke the weird, the unknown in a semi-tangible form are at the core of the fantasy form. The process behind the weird is not relevant. The way in which the protagonists handle their coming face to face with the weird is.
Does this mean decisive and physical action? Absolutely! It's the reason I love S&S, and I wouldn't have it any other way. As to whether this characteristic is more important to S&S than the sorcery aspect, I think that's a moot point. They're two sides of the same coin. And it's precisely the clash between the two opposites I feel, that intrigues me so much.
I would agree with Andy on the Lamb example. Lamb's writing reminds me of a Howard tale, not necessarily a S&S tale. The simple fact that Howard is so inextricably tied up in the S&S form inevitably rubs off on Lamb, whose style is so similar. That does raise an interesting point, though. How much of S&S is ultimately reliant on style? When we read a Conan story, or a Kane story, or an Elric story, how much are we are being influenced by the way in which it is told versus the actual content? If I were to read a Conan story without any hint of the weird in it I would still probably consider it an S&S tale. Why? I'm not sure. Power of the brandname maybe. Subconsciously I'm aware that what I am reading is part of a greater whole, a world wherein the magic is real, were I to look for it. Replace the name 'Conan' with 'Richard the Lionheart' though, and the magic is gone.
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story "sword and sorcery"? Not on its own. But then brandnames and tropes don't just extend to the protagonists. I've no doubt that a story set in a fictional city, populated by thieves, barbarians, merchants, priests; with ancient temples, rowdy taverns, bustling fleamarkets; medieval soldiery and arcane sects would evoke enough of that all-powerful D&D atmosphere to be safely termed Sword and Sorcery, even were it to not have a single shred of magic in it beyond that point.
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| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 10/22/2005 8:16 PM | quote:
Originally posted by baritsu6
members,the thread to me is very interesting---andy and howard give great ideas on what sword and sorcery should be. many individuals do not understand why they like howard's writings and then go out and read other s and s authors and are not satisfied. the answer eluded me for a bit, it turned [ imho] out it was darkness, noir. you can have a decent sword and sorcery story and for what it is worth , without the darkness it is not thrilling enough. this is why howards historicals are good and why with a magian, demon or lost race thrown into them , they become sword and sorcery. howard just had that knack. other pulp genres had writers that had noir, darkness----1]hero type [ the spider] norvell page2] westerns 1]gordon sherrifths 2] h.a. derosso 3] phillip ketchum --mystery--hammett, cain and others---i can easily be kept awake late at night reading these guys that are not s and s because of the way the story is written , not the genre----so even if a story falls in howard jones excellent criteria for s and s , to me it lacks tha dark, noir feeling that howard gave when SPUN A YARN.
I'm not sure I totally agree with this, but I see your point. A lot of Leiber's S&S was not really dark, but it was consistently weird. Same with Vance, CAS, Moore and several others. Howard wrote dark whatever the genre. I think though, this comes down to readability. Some readers just prefer certain writers over others. I prefer Deighton over Fleming, but I still recognize them as top-notch writers of spy thrillers.
S&S is certainly defined by its style, to a degree. But what about beyond that? When you get down to it is S&S really just historical fiction with a monster crammed into it? |
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