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| Posted By : erazmus - 7/14/2005 7:34 PM | Strap on your broadsword and lace up your sandals because Sword and Sorcery is back! That's an article of faith around here but when we say that Sword and Sorcery has a new edge what is it we really mean?
If we're looking at a revitalised genre, what killed it the last time and how is it different now?
It's got to be more than all the original writers of S&S are dead and someone new is telling the tales. That's almost where the genre started, S&S wasn't coined as a term for almost twenty years after REH killed himself and it didn't gain popularity until just before the standard for the genre was the Conan pastiche.
Why did it die in the first place? My own opinion was that the only thing holding S&S together as a seperate entity from general Fantasy to begin with was the efforts of Lin Carter. The genre itself didn't seem to last much past his passing as a commercial enterprise anyway. I can remember when half of Daw's catalog was S&S. A lot of those authors are still with us (I'm not THAT old!)but today they write straight Fantasy or Science Fiction. Why? Maybe I ought to e-mail Andy Offutt and ask? I know the answer. People, meaning us too, stopped buying books with barbarians in bunny furs on the cover. Conan became a comic book. Or an Arnold joke. Sure it didn't disappear entirely, just nobody wrote it anymore.
What's different now. What's going to be different this time?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 7/14/2005 9:42 PM | Raz: I think the biggest thing that might move S-and-S forward is greater attention to character. By that, I do not mean protagonists wallowing in self pity; but I do think it possible to write S-and-S with characters who go beyond the sometimes cardboard examples too prevelant in the genre. A dash of growth here, a smidgen of introspection there, a little more humanity in the characters, I think, will give readers someone to connect with, and something to think about after the big hairy monsters are slain.
Mr. Hocking's Kel stories do a good job of this; Hocking spends very little time having Kel dwell on his feelings for Lucella, or trying to figure out what those feelings are, but those feelings are in there. They don't slow down the story, they don't get in the way, but they are in there ... and every schmuck who has had a Lucella in his life can identify with Kel.
Ditto for "Two Fools Make A Tragedy" by C.J. Birch. It's a gritty story, plenty of mayem and mystery, but the relationship between the characters rang familiarly to me, and probably would to anyone who has ever been married. Such characterization has, in much of the past s-and-s work, been quite rare. The efforts of these authors, I think, is a positive direction for our genre.
One other thing, too, that can help move it all forward would be to connect our fantasies more solidly to our realities. One of the best s-and-s tales to do this, I think, is Poul Anderson'd "The Tale of Hauk," in which the Viking Hauk comes home to find his aged father, who was ill and dying when Hauk went to see, has died and come back from the dead. The undead father wants to force Hauk to kill him, to give him a better death than the "straw death" illness gave him. Undead dad will rip the entire village apart if Hauk doesn't do it. So Hauk must confront father and do the deed. OK, how does that connect with reality? Well, it does metaphorically. Many of us have aging parents, and we're watching them change and grow ill, etc. Many of us contend with Alzheimer's or other conditions. Many of us find ourselves suddenly having to be the grown up, realizing mom and dad and what they used to be, or aren't there any more. Readers in that boat surely can identify with Hauk. Anderson, in a scary, bloody, entertaining sword-and-sorcery tale, has given the reader something deeper to chew on, if the reader so wishes. That, too, is a rarity in sword-and-sorcery -- but it's a direction the genre can handle, and I think a direction writers should take more often. (By the way, I think "The Tale of Hauk" fits just fine into the parameters Howard set forth for the New Edge sword-and-sorcery.)
Anyway, this is all just my two-drachmas' worth.
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/14/2005 11:02 PM | Steve,
I see. Thanks, I had not quite come to that conclusion for myself yet.
Every writing venue I know talks about characters and plots but I've seen my share of "This story is just too long for what's there" or "There's just not enough life in your characters" rejections to sometimes come away a little puzzeled. I think I started this thread because I don't have any glib answers to some of my questions but I do have a few theories.
There are too few stories that "Give the readers something to chew on" in the genre. Metaphore has never been my forte either but I can appreciate a good one. I shall TRY to bear that in mind in my writing.
I think one of the things that almost killed S&S as a commercial enterprise was the tide of bad writing that seemed to choke much of the genre right at its apex. I'm talking about the later Gor books and some of the other series of S&S or S&P that seemed to wash over the stands when I was a young man. I can get nostalgic about some of that today, in the way that I remember older fans were nostalgic about the pulp magazines when I was a kid but along with the gems those old pulps did publish a lot of borderline trash, as did the serial paperbacks of my youth.
That and the attemp by some well meaning editors, Lin Carter included, who didn't see S&S allways so much as its own genre but as a broader label for what we'd call heroic fantasy. I reread recently the Deryni story in Carter's Flashing Swords #4. It's much like the novels that I loved but not much in tone or tempo what I'd call S&S now. Now I call it pretty much mainstream fantasy. No one I know would call Kurtz's "The King's Justice" to name a recent title I recall, Sword and Sorcery. Weather you love a genre or hate it you have to agree on whats in it to find what you want and avoid what you don't.
I like what I see in Howard's Flashing Swords. Given the limit in size of the stories it covers a lot of ground. And I don't miss some of the things I don't see in it. I'm very, very glad there's a market for the sort of fiction I love to read.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Supr - 7/15/2005 2:19 AM | Steve, very interesting thoughts!
I don't know the story. But I'm not so sure whether my interpretation of it wouldn't be the subconscious myth of fathers killing. Because for me S&S means always fight to the end. But on the other side the S&S heroes always wish/do die by the sword... So you're right.
|
| Posted By : John Hocking - 7/15/2005 5:08 AM | "Mr. Hocking's Kel stories do a good job of this; Hocking spends very little time having Kel dwell on his feelings for Lucella, or trying to figure out what those feelings are, but those feelings are in there. They don't slow down the story, they don't get in the way, but they are in there ... "
Thanks, Steve. That's me striving for a "hardboiled tone".
Back before hardboiled was universally equated with trenchcoats, fedoras and lonely saxaphones playing in the rain, it was a broader term for clear, unsentimental prose that didn't tell the reader how to feel, but showed him. Back in the day Hemingway, Dos Passos and John O'Hara were considered "hardboiled", believe it or not.
The prime dictum of "hardboiled writing" is still around--- every working writer has heard "show, don't tell". But you don't see much of that style in modern fantasy, and I think its undervalued in all fiction today. |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 7/15/2005 5:28 AM | quote:
Originally posted by John Hocking
The prime dictum of "hardboiled writing" is still around--- every working writer has heard "show, don't tell". But you don't see much of that style in modern fantasy, and I think its undervalued in all fiction today.
That is also the mantra of screenwriting. Make it happen on-screen, don't describe it off-screen.
Howard and I were traded some email. He mentioned the cinematic feel of many s-and-s stories, and maybe this is why. There are other correllations.
One thing that keeps film and s-and-s directly aligned is the concept of "inciting incident"; that incident which pushes the movie into action. The inciting incident should happen with in the first ten minutes. Ideally, it will happen sooner, within five minutes.
Or, maybe it even happened before the camera started rolling.
Unlike a novel, short stories don't have alot of time to build to an inciting incident. Maybe this is why the "in media res" ('in the middle' if I recall my lit classes correctly) method of opening a story in the middle of things and dropping hints for the reader to catch-up (not really the same as backstory) is a popular style for s-and-s.
I had a screenplay concerning Irish Monks discovering North America (Saint Brendan). My first draft started in Ireland. I quickly learned that to get the movie going, (and to save shooting budget) the action needed to open on the boat on the sea (not unlike "The White Wyrm"!) The decision to go across the sea was already made before the camera started rolling.
To throw in a non-action example, in the movie The Big Chill the inciting incident is the suicide of their friend that brings all the characters together for his funeral. The suicide happens before the movie starts.
I guess that was a little off-topic, but .. what's old is new. Show us; don't tell us, regardless of where you take us in the future.
-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 7/15/2005 6:23 AM | John: Good points about Hemingway, etc., and not telling the reader how to feel. There is a certain amount of preachiness in much literature today; I've seen it creep into some science fiction and fantasy as well, and I don't really like it. But I think sword-and-sorcery can use some characters who have a broader range of feelings, and let those feelings color the stories a bit, while avoiding that preachiness of tone and the tendency to wallow in philosophies and self-pity and such.
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/15/2005 8:29 AM | Sort of a tricksters as hero, to fall back on a Cambellian arch-type. we don't see much of this in fantasy, let alone our brand of fantsy and its a damn shame. I know there's room for a guy who gets what he wants with his mind, charming it, romancing it instead of prying it from the cold dead grasp of his enemies. Not to say that hero couldn't, or wouldn't fight.
The Mouser had an element of that sometimes. Closer to home Kel the archivist has a touch of it, if he had a bit more advarice. I guess what I'd like to see would be Conan the trickster, a sort of sword toting flim-flam man, "The Sting" in sandals.(The Stainless Steel Rat in bunnyfurs? . . .well perhaps not that far.)
Any examples of that I've missd out on? My reading to date is far from complete . . .
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 7/15/2005 8:37 AM | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Sort of a tricksters as hero, to fall back on a Cambellian arch-type. we don't see much of this in fantasy, let alone our brand of fantsy and its a damn shame. I know there's room for a guy who gets what he wants with his mind, charming it, romancing it instead of prying it from the cold dead grasp of his enemies. Not to say that hero couldn't, or wouldn't fight.
The Mouser had an element of that sometimes. Closer to home Kel the archivist has a touch of it, if he had a bit more advarice. I guess what I'd like to see would be Conan the trickster, a sort of sword toting flim-flam man, "The Sting" in sandals.(The Stainless Steel Rat in bunnyfurs? . . .well perhaps not that far.)
Any examples of that I've missd out on? My reading to date is far from complete . . .
My first thought was Mouser. I don't recall any at the moment. It sounds like something Clark Ashton Smith might have done, but I don't know alot of his stories, and I don't know if he had heroes that carried beyond a single tale.
It almost sounds like you want an Autolycus; Prince of Thieves (see Hercules: the Legendary Journeys/Xena: Warrior Princess) but get him out of camp-t.v.-fantasy and give him a grounding in s-and-s.
-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/15/2005 8:48 AM | Paul,
Yes, sort of like that anyway, I only dimly recall the character.
I've been thinking about what made the old S&S work when it was the new S&S. It seems to end up looking like this;
Conan gave way to the Grey Mouser and Fafhrd who again yeilded to Elric of Melbinonea who was promtly strangled by a team of bad workers lead by Thongor and the Tarnsman of Gor. Each generation of great S&S built on the foundation of the one before it with a different take on the type of Character it featured as hero. I know I left out a lot of characters, this is a shorthand version of a glimmer of an idea.
So a flim-flaming schemer who somehow gets the girl, the gold or the throne while putting as much of the icky carnage and perilous sorcerer slaying on others would seem to be new, improved and viable. It also sounds like a heck of a lot of fun!
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : jonesha - 7/15/2005 8:52 AM | Nifft the Lean has elements of this--Michael Shea. Haven't finished it, though. Hopefully Hocking will come in on this. Certainly Vance's Cugel the Clever, as well.
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/15/2005 9:07 AM | Now Cugel the clever I've heard of! I think I have him in the library.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : jonesha - 7/15/2005 9:18 AM | Cugel, of course, is played more for laughs. Not a successful con man. The character Michael and Paul discuss would be an interesting one. Nifft I enjoy, although I had a hard time getting used to the style, which was a little too CAS for me. Into the second or third tale of the collection, though, I started to dig it. Alas, then last semester started and it's been sitting over there on my bookshelf ever since.
Best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 7/15/2005 10:56 AM | I'm playing with a variation on the theme myself ... a character who, although he doesn't have tools of brawn and weapon skill, must cope with the dangers of a world reminscent of mythological times. I shoot for a sort of gallows humor in those tales, and some heavy irony, but I think they still represent the sword-and-sorcery school. It took me three stories to find the tone I wanted, and now I'm rewriting the first two tales (eventually) to try to bring them up to the level of the third. Anyway, it's one attempt on my part to take sword-and-sorcery in a different direction. With luck, those characters will find an audience soon.
Anyway, Raz, this is an interesting thread, and I like your conception of a sword-and-sorcery con-man. Go with it, and I hope to read the results some day!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : jonesha - 7/15/2005 11:24 AM | And a good story that was, Steve. You're so darned productive (and talented) I'd have to turn the zine into a Steve-only production to keep up! I hope you find an audience for all of your characters.
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 7/15/2005 11:44 AM | I'd like to toss an axe into this discussion. If it's felt the topic isn't worth following, or should be in another thread, then fine by me.
We talk about the roots of S&S and the progression it has followed from the early days through to Lin Carter and Katherine Kurtz. Over time the genre has become diluted to the point where Mike states that 'People, meaning us too, stopped buying books with barbarians in bunny furs on the cover. Conan became a comic book. Or an Arnold joke. Sure it didn't disappear entirely, just nobody wrote it anymore.'
How much of the downfall and misplaced notions about S&S has resulted from Arneson and D&D? How much harm has that venerable invention caused the genre, to the point that new writers/reviewers use 'Forgotten Realms' and Salvatore as bench marks to guage their reactions to the written S&S word, and fail to look beyond the Dungeon Master/Crystal Shard syndrome to discover the real influences that drive many of us?
Does part of this re-educating (if it can be termed that), involve repairing the damage caused by D&D and its countless computer knockoffs? And if so, how?
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| Posted By : PaulMc - 7/15/2005 12:10 PM | quote:
Originally posted by bdurham
How much of the downfall and misplaced notions about S&S has resulted from Arneson and D&D? How much harm has that venerable invention caused the genre, to the point that new writers/reviewers use 'Forgotten Realms' and Salvatore as bench marks to guage their reactions to the written S&S word, and fail to look beyond the Dungeon Master/Crystal Shard syndrome to discover the real influences that drive many of us?
Does part of this re-educating (if it can be termed that), involve repairing the damage caused by D&D and its countless computer knockoffs? And if so, how?
Bruce, are you nuts? You could make a killing with a Dalacroy video game! (hey, we're not getting that Conan game in the States so we need something!)[:o)]
I don't know how to re-educate, but you raise an interesting question. Maybe we just keep dedicating our works to those who went before. I mean, I found the Blues from the rock stars doing covers, seeing the songwriter of the session and going back. Then when I got there, there was even more behind the "old timers" than I ever knew! (The Rolling Stones -> Howlin' Wolf -> Charley Patton)
Maybe we don't re-educate, maybe we just carve our own corner. SwordandSorcery.org is a good start. The game novels are over there, the Jordanilogies are over there, the video game novels are there and we are here. All under 'Fantasy'.
-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 7/15/2005 1:56 PM | Howard: Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.
Bruce: I think you are on target in citing the D&D spinoff books as part of the obstacle to making sword-and-sorcery a viable commercial genre again. I know that seeing a D&D emblem or a Dragonlance logo on the cover of a book turns some readers off. I'm one of them. Fairly or not, I just haven't looked into any of the books out there with direct game tie-ins. Part of that reaction, I suppose, is a fear that the novels are simply instruments for introducing new character classes and such, or so slavishly adhere to the game rules that creativity is stifled. Part of it, too, is my belief that the things that make a role-playing game fun don't necessarily translate well into fiction. In any case, those are my reasons for not reading them, fair or not.
I know other people have similar reactions, and I know some who have tried some of the game tie-in books and found their fears justified. I can see a newcomer, who feels burned by such an experience, swearing off the whole sword-and-sorcery genre. To overcome it, I suspect, will require a really good sword-and-sorcery movie that draws attention to a really good sword-and-sorcery book -- something that will get the public's attention and prod big publishers to seek more of the same in their usual follow-the-herd mentality.
And when it happens, I suspect the book will come out of the small press (or at least have its beginnings there) and the film will come from some small production company, driven by a director who just flat out loves this stuff and wants to do it right.
I'm probably dreaming. I do that a lot.
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 7/15/2005 2:19 PM | Quoting Howard: And a good story that was, Steve. You're so darned productive (and talented) I'd have to turn the zine into a Steve-only production to keep up!
My reply: I think a Steve-only 'zine would be too much. A couple of Steve-only issues each year would suffice. ... (tongue firmly in cheek, just in case any of you can't tell!)
Thanks again, Howard.
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : nikolai - 7/16/2005 2:35 AM | quote:
How much of the downfall and misplaced notions about S&S has resulted from Arneson and D&D? How much harm has that venerable invention caused the genre, to the point that new writers/reviewers use 'Forgotten Realms' and Salvatore as bench marks to guage their reactions to the written S&S word, and fail to look beyond the Dungeon Master/Crystal Shard syndrome to discover the real influences that drive many of us?
Does part of this re-educating (if it can be termed that), involve repairing the damage caused by D&D and its countless computer knockoffs? And if so, how?
I'm very fond of D&D. However, it's influence on S&S has been poisonous. I think there are a lot of people whose only exposure to S&S has been through D&D. And D&D is sort of a bland, watered down composite of lots of classic S&S.
Frankly though, I don't think D&D is to blame. S&S was created in Wierd Tales, and I'd say its downfall happened soon after REH's death. Once Ashton Smith, C. L. Moore and Leiber (there was a long break where he wrote no F&GM stories) had stopped writing the whole genre sort of fizzled out. There have been some "reinventions" since, but I think the end of this "golden age" was the most important event. Most S&S since has been trying to recapture this period.
This is a quote from Moorcock about starting Elric (in the 1960s):
quote:
MICHAEL MOORCOCK: I began writing 'heroic fantasy' because at the time almost nobody was writing it. Robert E. Howard was dead. Fritz Leiber had written a few Gray Mouser stories published in magazines in the 1940s, Poul Anderson had written The Broken Sword and then gone on to specialise in science fiction and Tolkien wasn't available in mass market. This was regarded as an uncommercial and specialised form and the editor of SCIENCE FANTASY, Ted Carnell, asked me to write my first Elric story not because he thought it would sell enormous numbers of copies, but because he had a special affection for that kind of fiction. As it happened, the readers loved those first stories and the rest is history. I had at the time something of a blank canvas. Now all the techniques and innovations I regarded as my own have been copied, as is the normal way of things, by generic versions, just as Tolkien and Howard have generic versions of their work. The only difference is that I'm still alive, still satisfying my urge to write fiction! The last Elric trilogy — really an Eternal Champion trilogy, I suppose — was an attempt to do something new, and I hope vital, with the form. If I succeeded, I'm glad, but I don't think I can take the genre any further without it ceasing to be that genre. So while I might yet write another fantastic book, probably something closer to Gloriana, I shan't write another Eternal Champion heroic fantasy.
http://www.twbookmark.com/authors/96/2076/interview20709.html |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 7/16/2005 5:28 AM | I mentioned in another thread that I'd been reading Moorcock's new trilogy as well as re-reading the original Elric stories and I'd pretty much agree with what he says in the quote above. The final volume, White Wolf's Son almost does leave the genre. There's not nearly as much action and adventure as in the previous two books, Dreamthief's Daughter and Skrayling Tree. The choice of a twelve year old girl as the primary narrator would probably have been enough to put me off had I not already read and enjoyed the first two novels. As we've discussed many times here, though we can't always readily identify what exactly sword & sorcery is, we can usually tell pretty darn quick what it isn't.
I don't really think D&D had much to do with the fall off of S&S. I blame the amazing influence of the Lord of the Rings on the fantasy genre and the shift away from most forms of pulp literature. Don't see any mass market Doc Savage reprints these days and Edgar Rice Burroughs is barely represented on the chain store shelves.
I think sword & sorcery can rebound, but it's going to take some good writing and probably some inspired marketing as well.
Charles R |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/16/2005 7:48 PM | I often forget the not so coinsidental emergence of D&D with the death of S&S paperbacks. I started playing D&D Christmas 1974. I stopped somewhere in the very early ninties. I had wanted to be a writer in highschool, set it aside and didn't pick it up until I was 39. In between I generated thousands of pages of notes on various D&D campainges. Fifty three three inch binders bursting. If I had been writing in that time I would be a much better writer and probably produced several novels by now, some of which might have been salabe.
Does D&D swallow potential writers? REH was dead long before he hit 39 and wrote a hell of a lot of stories. Are there other writers or potential writers out there who put all there creativity into dungeon design and senario writing? Heck I played with some, so I know there were.
Despite claims I hear all the time that the game is basically based on Tolkien it realy obviously isn't. Professor T's work has no actual and obvious magic going on in it, Gandalf doesn't cast spells as such, nor do the few other wizards. It is REH's work that was the inspired setting for a lot of it, evil wizards with terrible powers, priests both light and dark battling it out alongside mighty warriors and cunning theives. Bilbo picked one pocket, and got caught. The entire structure of D&D's class system sugests a source other than Tolkien. His wizards and elves weild unworldly power along side ordinary might of arm and skill with a sword. It's Kull and Conan where the sorcerer isn't a warrior.
As to S&S today, outside of the small press and reworkings of Howard's characters, is there S&S today? Sword and Planet is clearly dead in my mind. Heroic fantasy I see aplenty and some of it mighty good but it seems much cleaner and brighter, in general, and set on a much less personal scale than what I usually think of as S&S. Am I being too narrow in my thinking? Was S&S really just a good handle Lieber coined to distinguish modern heroic fantasy from the frothier sort of "Faerie Queen" work of ages past? Did it just get a shave, haircut and a job so now I don't recognise it anymore?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/16/2005 10:50 PM | In addendum
I think the question of D&D's effects on S&S would best be answered by editors. I don't think we see the effect clearly in what we read so much as an editor does when he reads the slush piles. The worse is certainly screened out.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : jhmcmullen - 7/18/2005 7:08 AM | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
In addendum
I think the question of D&D's effects on S&S would best be answered by editors. I don't think we see the effect clearly in what we read so much as an editor does when he reads the slush piles. The worse is certainly screened out.
I can't answer for the effect on S&S, but we can estimate its effect on fantasy by seeing what editors explicitly say they don't want, in their guidelines, and my estimate is that they overwhelmingly don't want stories from RPG (almost all D&D) campaigns. That kind of screening almost ensures that S&S tales of mighty barbarians or crafty thieves with a small knowledge of magic will be eliminated.
In a similar way, when I look at fantasy submissions on various writer critique group websites, the vast majority of them start with prologues. I haven't bought a book that starts with a prologue for twenty years (the last was They Thirst, by Robert McCammon). Unless Conan and the Emerald Lotus starts with a prologue--okay, I might have bought one, but I can truthfully say I haven't read a prologue for twenty years. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/18/2005 7:21 AM | I didn't read the prolog to the Dragon rider books for ten years. Then again I usually do read them now, but most of my reading has been action oriented SF series lately and the occasional prolog is often a nice, short orientation, not a long world building kludge of an essay. If its in italics I don't seem to want to read it. MacCaffery's was in italics.
It's funny because my favorite part of most anthologies is the editors comments, both at the beginning and introducing each story. I always read those.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 7/18/2005 9:21 AM | I've no doubt a number of editors toss out a story the instant they perceive it to be an "RPG-type" story, even if the story isn't, in fact, an "RPG-type." And a lot of good sword-and-sorcery no doubt gets tossed out in that process.
I can understand, sort of, how that happens. I know editors are deluged with submissions, and I suspect the majority of those submissions are bad. I base that upon some slush I've read and on stuff other people have foisted upon me when they learned of my interest in writing. When faced with a pile of 200 or 300 stories, you are likely to toss aside anything that does not hook you in seconds. Many "RPG-type" stories have a sameness to them that boggles the mind. The story starts in a tavern, someone hires a mish-mash collection of heroes made up of all the requisite character classes, someone insults the thief, the mighty warrior says something gruff and off they go. You can almost hear the dice rolling.
This is not to say that a good story can't be done in this manner; what I'm saying is that a LOT of bad stories have been done in this manner, and a story that smacks even a little of this isn't likely to get more than a glance from a harried editor faced with a big pile of slush. I have no doubt that some wonderful, spectacular, fascinating stories never see the light of day because of all this, and I hate knowing that. But I can, at least, see how it happens.
That's why the existence of "Flashing Swords," "Amazing Journeys Magazine," Carnifex Press and others thrills me. These are all markets that want to produce the kind of stuff being lost in slush piles at the bigger magazines. These editors have specific needs, know their genres and will not assume that the presence of a big guy with a sword or a snarky thief means "Oh, great, another D&D gaming session turned into blah fiction."
JH: My novel starts with a prologue. But it's not a "here's the background of the world you need to know to have this story make any sense" kind of prologue. It's a prologue told from the vantage of the character who begomes the antagonist in my story; the rest of the novel is told from the protagonist's viewpoint. It really was a structural thing on my part, to get some action and a demon up front and to show the reader a little about the antagonist to make that character a fuller character. It also sets up everything that follows, but it's part of the story and is told as part of the story, rather than just exposition as so many prologues seem to do these days. Whether it works or not, I guess publishers and readers will decide. But if you ever get to pick up my novel, I hope you'll give the prologue a chance!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : William King - 7/18/2005 9:22 AM | For myself, I actually started writing game tie-in stories because it was the only place I could write the sort of S&S I liked and actually get paid for it-pretty decently too. That was in the late 80's and there simply were not any markets for short sword and sorcery fiction that I could find in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter.)
It was an apprenticeship of sorts because at the time I had neither the confidence nor the skill to write novels. (There are plenty of people on the Net who assure me I still don't have the latter!) They also provided me with a path that let me move on to novels when I was ready. In some ways, for me, the game tie-ins have been what the pulps were for other earlier writers- a place to learn and actually earn a living doing it. Its something that's worth considering about the field. If anybody's interested and going to be at the Worldcon I am moderating a panel on the subject.
I am not sure I would blame D&D for the death of S&S fiction except indirectly. A D&D game allows you to do all the things yourself that you had to read old fashioned simplistic S&S to get- you can play a mighty barbarian or roguish thief stalking those ruins instead of having to read about his adventures. Modern computer games allow you very much the same experience. That is why I think modern S&S has to offer the reader more than a simple written up D&D type scenario- you can get that experience much more immersively elsewhere.
All the best,
Bill |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 7/18/2005 9:52 AM | Bill: Good points. I think there is another role for gaming in writing sword-and-sorcery, too, and that is in world-building. I've written many stories that are set in a fantasy world that has existed on tabletops in my home for decades. That long-running campaign produced exotic settings, great characters, plenty of maps, etc. And when I write stories in that setting, it's a tremendous help. I know how my protagonist is likely to react to a certain event or antagonist, because I've seen my players react to those things. I know which red herrings worked in the game, and can make them work in the stories. I know there's a dead-end alley next to the tanner's shop, how far it is to the next town and so on and so on. I don't think any of my stuff reads much like a gaming session, but I know that gaming has certainly helped my writing.
I've read some gaiming tie-in books, too, that were pretty entertaining reads, and I hope nothing I wrote above seemed like a smear of those or anything. I was referring specifically to people who get up from the gaming table, write down what happened and mail it off to an editor -- not to writers who use their word skills and storytelling abilities to good effect in a solid story that just happens to tie in to D&D or to Warhammer. There's a difference, as you well know!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/18/2005 10:13 AM | I think unsolicited game fiction is like fan fiction so many people write about their favorite screen characters, amusing for its own self and a place a lot of people get started writing but not much of a venue in and of itself. One of my favorite writers got her start by writing a star trek fan fic piece, Lois Bujold. She later rewrote that piece extensively several times, removing the S-T references and setting it in her own universe. That was _Barrayar_ which led to the entire Miles Vorkosigan saga, four hugos and innumerable other awards.
I don't know of any examples of gaming fiction leading to similar results but I'm sure there are some. And the fiction itself isn't a bad thing except as it impacts the patience of those all important first readers at major markets and other prime venues. I think it does drown out some very good original voices and drives others to move on in more acceptable directions, leaving the Sword and Sorcery we love coming up a bit short.
What I'd love to see is some living working authors who started out writing S&S get together somewhere to write some more. As far as I know Andy Offutt, Orson Scott Card, Tanith Lee, Brian Lumley, David Drake, Diana Paxon and many others all wrote some solid S&S back in the day along with many others I can't recall off hand and all are writing now, though few in the original genre. That'd make a nice line up for an anthology or twenty, leaving spaces for those of us who can cut it to maybe get a seat at that table. That could cause a revival all by itself.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : William King - 7/18/2005 10:49 AM | >And the fiction itself isn't a bad thing except as it impacts the patience of those all important first readers at major markets and other prime venues. I think it does drown out some very good original voices and drives others to move on in more acceptable directions, leaving the Sword and Sorcery we love coming up a bit short.<
I'm not sure I follow you there, Michael. Would you care to expand on that?
All the best,
Bill |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/18/2005 11:35 AM | Bill,
I'm never reluctant to open my mouth and squawk.
Bad D&D fiction sits in the slush pile. The harried editor-in-fact tells his only assistant "We need to get that pile knocked down a bit. Take some of those home and look through them," So humble assistant, now first reader, grabs a stack a good ten inches high on his way out the door.
Once home he looks over the first in the pile while unwrapping his microwave dinner. It's a badly written pastiche of role playing game cliches with a wizard with a wand, a female barbarian in a magic bikini, a gruff dwarf with and axe and others, who are on there way to assassinate an unpopular local civil offical called "The dark lord". About the time our reader gets to this point he puts down the manuscript and gets to the next one.
The next one is different. It's about a young werewolf struggling it earn his place amisdt his clan and become a leader in their war with the vampires. Its written okay, the writer at least knows how to use a spell checker and the grammer isn't awful but about twenty pages in the reader starts to see where the author was "Rolling the dice" to see what happens next. A ways farther it still hasn't grabbed him and he puts it down and starts another.
After finishing his dinner, listening to his favorite TV program while he reads, our first reader has knocked the stack down a couple of inches, mostly by being sever as too not reading a manuscript that doesn't "look" good, ie spelling, punctuation, format. Everything he's read so far has been junk but he wants the boss to be happy so he presses on.
He picks up yet another stack of pages by nobody he's ever heard of. Actually its a well written story about a vikings quest for his missing father and the involvement in the search of Odin's ravens. Unfortunatly the author started out with the same sort of opening used in a lot of game fiction, young hero with a sword and a 'tude responding to a dangerous situation. The readers tired of this stuff and puts it down after the first twelve lines or so. "Another D&D session rip-off" he snorts, going on to pick up a perfectly dreadful story about unicorns and oak-worms.
Just bad luck for the writer, right? If he'd been at the top of that stack he'd have gotten a second look, from a person who could actually write a check for his story. Well, maybe. After a few weeks of this between crunch times when the staff is too busy putting out the magazine or what ever it is to read any submissions every story starts to blurr and it gets harder and harder to stand out and when a lot of what your trying to stand out from looks similar in its barest bone to your work, you get left by the curb more often than you should.
Thats sort of what I was trying to say.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : William King - 7/18/2005 12:58 PM | Right- got you. Was not sure how actual D&D novels- of the type published by WotC/TSR- interfere with the process since they are commissioned in-house. You are obviously referring to D&D type novels and non-media tie in publishers.
All the best,
Bill |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 7/18/2005 5:14 PM | You know what I would like to see? Somewhere other than faux-medieval settings.
How about 14th century sub-saharan Africa set in Timbuctu? City of knowlege, Islamic scholarship, surrounded by warring tribes and fluid empires.
Or the "true" origins of the Austrailian aborigine (your choice--- fugitives from Atlantis or remnants of some Ur-tribe).
Or some totally non-historical stuff based on some of the weirder flat-earther type stuff (see www.crank.net for some of the most... unusual.)
I am writing some stuff set in bronze-age Mesopotamia and Anatolia. Lots of recent discoveries there, very weird and interesting.
Egypt seems to be a natural--- where is our great Pharonic warrior hero?
Or pacific islander? If you saw the movie Rapa Nui, you know just how exotic that culture can seem.
Even the veriest hack could take some worn out plot and drop it into some new exotic setting and serve up the same old stale bread, but at least it would have the mold cut off the crust.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/18/2005 5:37 PM | Michael,
I'm with you on that, except I can't imagine doing the work to portray such an exotic culture and not bothering to at least warm up the plot a little. Recently I read a pretty good fantasy with a not dissimilar setting, the _Joust_ series by Mercedes Lackey. Bronze age setting, with dragons. It'd be S&S if Misty didn't stick with the classic fantasy "Young boy comes of age in difficult circumstance" plot line and tone that has worked so well for her (and many others) so often before.
Like the Aztec setting we spoke of in another thread such worlds would seem right and a logical choice for an author to tend to if trying to break in, especially in novels. Short fiction would be a little more difficult as there is little room to establish such a setting, while generic psuedo-medival requires no explanation. But such a setting done well would certainly help a manuscript from an unknown author stand out of the pile a bit more.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : jonesha - 7/19/2005 2:43 AM | Dear Michael,
Right on--I would love to see some submissions from those sorts of environments myself! I'm TIRED of pseudo-medieval.
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/19/2005 4:43 AM | Howard,
Don't hold your breath waiting for me to put my money where my mouth is, I've been a psuedo-medival offender as much as anyone and I write at a glacial pace.
But I'm awfully glad I started coming here, the idea caudron is getting filled nicely.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : jonesha - 7/19/2005 5:43 AM | Michael, we're glad to have you. I enjoy your posts.
We hope you'll spread the word about the site and our products--Lords of Swords and future anthologies power all that we do, so if fans want to see more new sword and sorcery they need to help keep us going!
best wishes,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : jhmcmullen - 7/19/2005 6:04 AM | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
Right on--I would love to see some submissions from those sorts of environments myself! I'm TIRED of pseudo-medieval.
Crap! Now I'll lower my expectations on my story selling to Howard.
'Cause ninth century is pretty much medieval, and there's even an inn, fer goodness' sake!
Of course, there is a draugr-like thing, and a little more detail than usual on beer....
(Now, taking my tongue out of my cheek.)
Of course, even pseudo-medieval can be made interesting; you just get a head start if you write about Egyptians. Or Incans; I have a Chachapoyan mummy story brewing that might be considered S&S. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/19/2005 6:24 AM | I do what I can to promote the products I find out about here, including L.o.S. . Unfortunatly I'm not active many places on the web, I'm not conventioning this year unles I get a rash of last second sales or hit the lotto. I'd tell my freinds except I haven't got many--writer, you know, practically a shut in.
What I will do is submit and submit and submit, here and elsewhere, so I can get those sales, go to the cons and get word out for all the fine products I've found. When I do I reasonably effective, I talk more and faster than I post.[:D]
I hope Pitch Black does many more S&S anthologies, some open ones would be very nice. I'll be pulling for them either way, as this is not only what I like to write, it's what I like to read.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 7/19/2005 8:37 AM | As long as I am correcting all that is lacking in s&s, let me speak of protagonists---
Dear Lord, I am tired of white males. And I am a white male.
I am just as tired of white males with bosoms, as in warrior women who are just a set of traits that white males wish women had, with skimpier costumes.
Howsabout:
More women who act like, you know, women?
Asians who are not Japanese Samurai or Chinese Shaolin? More than half the world's population are Asian--- Viet, Philipino, Thai, Tibetan, Mongolian, or if you have to do Japanese, why not Ainu?
Pre-Islamic Middle Eastern, Central Asian Steppes, Austrailian Abo, Pacific Islander, Eskimo, Ancient African, Phoencian, or Haitian.
Fish out of water stories are fun to write, somebody with more time and skill than I please take one of these groups and drop them into some other culture. Poet from Harun Al-Rashid's court in Norse saga... oh, right, been done. See how easily the story writes itself? If Michael Crichton in all of his hackly glory can do it, so can you!
End of my rant, time for me to put some words in a line that I am paid for, back to writing fiction this year, but still am obligated to a IT security manual for pharmacies before the end of the year.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 7/19/2005 8:45 AM | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
I am tired of white males. And I am a white male.
Pre-Islamic Middle Eastern, Central Asian Steppes, Austrailian Abo, Pacific Islander, Eskimo, Ancient African, Phoencian, or Haitian.
I guess we're on a wave length.
I have been working on an Pacific Islander story cycle since earlier this year.
But I'm doing 20K word stories so you won't see them in Flashing Swords.
Though, maybe I can take one of the side characters and give him a 5K word adventure...
-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net |
| Posted By : Daniel - 7/19/2005 8:53 AM | hope Pitch Black does many more S&S anthologies, some open ones would be very nice. I'll be pulling for them either way, as this is not only what I like to write, it's what I like to read.
***
Thanks, Mike (and all).
We'd love to be doing more anthos, more open anthos, and also single-author novels, series, and collections. Pitch-Black has every intention of seeing these plans through, but as I have mentioned before -- it takes ground support. So often, we tend to believe that work, great fiction, will do its own promotion and that is true to an extent, but we live in a short-attention span society so -- only a short window to impress upon the bean counters that our brand of fantasy and sword and sorcery is a winning brand.
Add to that -- word of mouth advertising is more powerful than many might believe.
And so far as psuedo-medieval fantasy goes: we avoid all but the most superlative of these. I see an awful lot of them, but purchase only a small percentage. There are endless variations of heroic fantasy and worlds to be explored. That's part of the opportunity that Pitch-Black hopes to represent, exactly what we want to do: discover and publish new voices, explore new fantasy worlds, find original heroes and heroines and deliver fiction that people want to read.
But it is crucial to our success that our supporters do all they can to drive interest and sales through the roof! That is how the markets will change and more markets for solid fantasy fiction will open up, when there are sales and readers to back up the excellent talent-pool of writers who are pouring out to participate in what PB is trying to do.
Believe me, Pitch-Black and our distributors and their sales reps are doing everything possible to promote the anthos all around the world, but (recall my post on SF as "folk art") ground support is where it all hinges: if you know someone (and you DO) who's been lamenting the lack of good fantasy shorts in the marketplace, let them know about LoS. If you're stuck on what gift to give to a friend or family member -- buy them a copy of Lords of Swords.
We have specials running at our store nearly 24/7 and/or if you Google around you can find excellent deals on LoS.
http://pitchblackbooks.netfirms.com/Cynosure/nfoscomm/catalog/index.php
Spread the word about our contest, too -- or mention to your non-reader friends that you have a book you can recommend that has something for everyone. Tell your friends who loved LOTR that you've got a book for them that won't strain their brains but entertain them with plenty of thoughtful, imaginative -- sword-slinging fantasy fiction.
We heartily thank each and every one of you for your support and creativity!
Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com |
| Posted By : Dragon Angel - 7/19/2005 11:29 AM | I would love to set a story in a different setting. India would be fun, or Africa, or south America, or Vietnam.
Here's the big problem: It would take me a solid year of research to produce anything even approaching believable. Writer's Digest puts out good books that cut down the research time, but only on the standard pseudo-medieval setting (and I think one for the old west). Researching a story about the Aztecs is harder than all get out. Worse, If I write a book about Aztecs instead of Pseudo-medievel, all evidence I've seen suggests it will only sell in mediocre quantities. |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 7/19/2005 1:57 PM | I'll offer a 'trick' I've used a couple of times to write about a new and unfamiliar setting without doing mass amounts of research and still sounding as if I'd minored in the time period. I was writing a story about ancient Rome and I had to do it quickly so rather than read ten books on Rome and try to digest them, I bought a biography of Cicero, picked one particular year of his life, and set my story there. The biography gave me all the local color, customs, political situations, current events, and so forth for that year and I made good use of it. Many people complimented me on my 'research.' Oh and the index gave me all the male and female Roman names I needed. It wouldn't work as well for a book, I'm sure, but for a short story it worked fine.
Charles R |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/19/2005 2:55 PM | Charles,
I can see that trick working in a short and I'll file it away for future use for that.
Remember what were talking about here though. Fantasy stories. We don't need to replace the generic medival setting with authentic Aztec or exactingly researched Egyptian. We could replace it with Pseudo-bronze age Ur-like, its another world after all. Howard created his world in such a way that he could take recognisable bits of our world and fit them in as he needed. Blacks, orientals, semetics, europeans all mixed freely. Even aztecs and escimos could be used if he needed them. One need not aquire a phd in anthropology to use a setting, just use it. Steal what you need from an encyclopedia and a few standard references and get on with writing your tale. (Incidentally I reccomend L.Sprague DeCamp's "The Ancient Engineers" as one of those standard references.)It's the writing thats going to sell the story, plot, characters, pacing, action. The setting just helps it stand out, like a chrome cover on the book stand, its most effective when a kick-ass story is wrapped inside.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 7/19/2005 4:22 PM | Yeah, I'm with you Mike. I was offering that bit of writing info to the folks who had expressed interest in alternate historical settings. I usually prefer to make everything up. A few months back though, I had considered setting a sword & sorcery story in Babylon. Following my own advice, I went out and got a nifty biography of Hammurabi. As I read though, I found that I didn't really want to write about Babylon. Now will I make use of some of the things I learned next time I'm world building? You bet.
Charles R |
| Posted By : Dragon Angel - 7/19/2005 8:44 PM | | Good point. I guess I worry though that if I don't try to stay as accurate as possible, that the story will have a pseudo-medieval feel to it. Also, the important parts for me would be less the technology and more the cultural norms. I can never seem to find good references on that. Much easier to learn what weapons they used, what they ate for breakfast, or what color women dyed their hair. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/19/2005 9:50 PM | David,
I suppose that's where a background in anthropology or history comes in handy, pity I rejected the benefits of a higher education. However, living aboard for many years taught me that its the little assumptions that make your setting foreign and exotic. I've often adapted a philipino or Korean G.I. town into a wild and wicked fantasy frontier city, they are not dissimilar. A good option is to have the people in the little village down the way have a very different attitude, this is accurate even if the "city" is Denver and the little town, say its "Elicott" Colorado. Not far away, totally different world.
Historical setting are tricky because historicly most women didn't have as many options open to them as we like to display in fantasy these days. They had other options we don't think about because in most cultures women had a whole society of their own that didn't even superficially resemble that of the male dominated society history mostly reguards. Basicly if you don't make war you don't make the history books. I'm thinking of cultures like Ancient Siam or the Laoation kingdoms. Or the several states of india before the muslim invasions of the twelth century.
We fantasists also seem prone to ignore the rich opportunities in tribal culture, particularly in shorter works. There is endles information on the customs, taboos and orginisation of plenty of different tribal peoples from several continents available in any public library yet you seldom see evidence of it in short fantasy works. (My own included, I'll add) I think a lot of people reference R. E. Howard more than actual academic studies of indigenous peoples and that's a shame because while Howard was well read so much has been done in this area since his death. Heck I know a lot of writers who seldom reference so much as a national geographic article to get their "exotic" people. What they usually get is "generic peoples".
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 7/20/2005 7:45 AM | Good point--- remember, Burroughs never went to Africa --and he sure as heck never went to Mars. And while some of his gaffes are truly laughable, it never draws away from the breakneck narrative pace.
In a truly well written S&S story, the background is never the star.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : JMP - 7/20/2005 11:31 AM | Michael Turner recommended Sprague De Camp's Ancient Engineers as research fodder for world-building (which I strongly second). I'd also add De Camp's Lost Continents. The book is fascinating in itself, as a tour of some weird places in a variety of cultures, and it provokes a lot of thought about how the map of an imaginary world affects the story (and vice versa).
JMP
James M. Pfundstein |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/20/2005 11:53 AM | James, I'd have reccomended that one as well, but I don't have a copy! All in good time. And that Occult reference was by John Michael Greer.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/21/2005 7:45 PM | Oops that occult reference was in another thread[:D]
Another way of achieving a non-medival setting is much closer to home. Use the method that Adams used in his Horseclans books or Vance in the Dying Earth stories, a post apocalyptic earth setting. That's as good as sword and planet and the setting need not be more than your own home town. The sorcery angle's a bit more complicated but need not be, the Derlithian outsiders made their presence known during the appocalyps and there you are, dark gods, wicked acolyts, people of many colors all in the same region, plus the bonus of ancient technology. Flying ships, hero's with swords, wizards with strange powers and the ancient city of Den'ver. Better than Carter's lemuria, that one.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : JMP - 7/25/2005 11:53 AM | Hm... maybe someone should reprint both these handy books in an omnibus edition? They'd fit nicely into a modern trade paperback.
JMP("Poseidonis")
James M. Pfundstein |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/25/2005 3:40 PM | James,
As far as I know all the DeCamp books mentioned are in print, and you couldn't combine the _Anient Engineers_ with anything, it's quite a tome. Thats the only one I have but I suspect thats true of the others.
The Barnes and Nobles cheap section and used book stores are my reserch libraries best friends. I'd use the public library more but the fines usually add up to more, over time, than a cheap copy of an every day reference.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 7/26/2005 6:55 AM | quote:
Originally posted by davidolson22
Good point. I guess I worry though that if I don't try to stay as accurate as possible, that the story will have a pseudo-medieval feel to it. Also, the important parts for me would be less the technology and more the cultural norms. I can never seem to find good references on that. Much easier to learn what weapons they used, what they ate for breakfast, or what color women dyed their hair.
- Historical Fiction/Fantasy is a sticky trap of its own. Either you write a modern story then fill it with 'bits of history' to foist off as a 'Historical Fiction/Fantasy', or you do your research and find yourself caught in the vast, Celtic Knot of history that can draw you into its twining embrace for decades.
- I watched a program where they interviewed about 8 well known 'Historical' authors and they all said the same thing, "Write the story/ then do the research'.
- From a business point-of-view I'm sure that they are correct. Once the artistic portion is done, editing in different names, locations or bits of equipment is simple.
- From the Point-of-view of writing about real History-- well it's not quite so simple as that. Different people of different times and locations simply have completely different social mores. They have different motovations. They have different needs.
- Authors just can't take, let's say a Northern hunting story and set it in Iron Age Iraq. I mean, they can but it would be complete fantasy. And, if they're a good enough writer, they may have just polluted people's perception of History (More than it already is.)
- I would encourage people too keep the quickie-research for fantasy stories. It can add a great deal of color. Real Historical Fiction/Fantasy demands a little more time & effort.
- As you pointed out, researching culture takes a lot more time. I think it's worth it, even for a fantasy story. But then, I don't have to make a living off how many stories I can turn out so I have the time to be picky. (I just spent about three years researching & writing a Norse S&S story and when I began I thought I already knew the subject -insert laughing at myself-)
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ |
| Posted By : jonesha - 7/26/2005 7:05 AM | Thanks Rob; good points all. Welcome to the forum!
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 7:44 AM | Rob,
I definatly am for S&S over historical. S&S needs reserch too. I hate it when an author gets something wrong, technically, with something going on in his story. I hate it when a bronzesmith is equipted with the same set up a ninteenth century blacksmith would be, in a fantasy setting, only he's hammering bronze. Arrgh! Needs a different set up entirely. I use my reserch in fantasy to get the details right. The story may take place in another world or a lost age of history but steel is steel, sheep are sheep and water better flow down hill.
I've written an alternate history story, my first sale, and I was careful with the details. My work was made easier with my venue, lots of researchers to help me out. I stayed away from things I didn't have time to get right. I do the same in my fantasy stories, at least when I'm successful.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : William King - 7/26/2005 8:39 AM | Personally I think story first, research second is an utterly sound premise in almost any genre.
I don't read S&S in order to find out about early bronze age smithing- I read it for interesting characters doing exciting things in an exotic setting. I can fully understand that if you are an expert in a given field seeing mistakes might easily puncture your willing suspension of disbelief but for myself when I imaginatively enter a world that has sorcery, alternate history, alien races, demons and a bunch of other stuff I can usually rationalize a few cultural errors. Quite often I simply don't spot them.
Yes, sheep should be sheep, steel should be steel and water better flow downhill unless there's an elemental pushing it in the other direction. Equally if you want to dot the i's and cross the t's in your historical research, more power to you. I don't think its an absolute requirement however. For me, research will always come a long way behind good storytelling.
All the best,
Bill |
| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 7/26/2005 9:06 AM | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
Thanks Rob; good points all. Welcome to the forum!
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine
Thanks,
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 9:07 AM | Bill,
Oh, ayeh, storytelling better come first if I'm telling a story. Truth, it comes first even if I'm writing an article or an essay. The structure of the tale , the pacing, the plot, thats whats going to sell the story and thats what will lead to a story's sale. But I hate it when I'm reading a perfectly good story and get thrown out by some stupid detail that I know and the author didn't and I don't want that happening in my work. If the viewpoint is omnicient it should be right.
I'll give you an example, with out naming names though I belive everyone here will know what I'm speaking about. (I'm just too darn lazy to look up and cite right now.)
I read recently, in a pub much beloved by me now, a viking story. In this story the viking was sailing around the lands that later europeans would refer to as the New World. He sailed in Hudson bay. Hudson bay!. Five hundred years before Hudson, his bay is sailed in and refered too. Drove me nuts and incidentally right out of the story.
I'm sure the natives had a name for that bay. I'm sure the northmen in the story could have had their own name for it. I'm sure I would have said it differently. If it had been my story, and I've written worse believe me, I'd have wanted the editor to make me change it before it saw print. That probably would mean a few days in the library to find that alternate name but it would have been worth it to me.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 7/26/2005 9:14 AM | quote:
I've written an alternate history story, my first sale, and I was careful with the details. My work was made easier with my venue, lots of researchers to help me out. I stayed away from things I didn't have time to get right. I do the same in my fantasy stories, at least when I'm successful.
Mike
'You can always see further standing upon another man's shoulders'.
- Not having the time to learn dozens of ancient languages or dig up lost cities ourselves tapping other's expertice is the only way I've found to research.
- I tend to do the same thing. Just don't mention 'it' if I know nothing about 'it'. If it's something I HAVE to use then I have to take the rest of the knowledge I've gained about the culture in question and say, 'what would they do', as opposed to what would I do'. This makes for less 'kinder, gentler' stories but I think it's closer to reality.
(What was your Alt/Hist story?)
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 9:29 AM | Rob,
With my wife, Deann Allen, I wrote "An American Past Time" which appeared in _Ring of Fire_ an anthology of stories taking place in the world of Eric Flint's 1632, from Baen books. Everything in the antho is cannon and my characters I invented went on to bigger and better things without me.
My story is about baseball, cultures merging and how leasure time is viewed in the new United States of Europe postilated in these books. The series now has several volume with a new one coming out this month.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 7/26/2005 9:47 AM | quote:
Originally posted by William King
Personally I think story first, research second is an utterly sound premise in almost any genre.
//Quite often I simply don't spot them.
// For me, research will always come a long way behind good storytelling.
- Well now see here we differ. I'm the type of miserable b@$t@#d that gaggs when he see's a movie show Chinese 'Ninja', or an Iron Age blacksmith pour molten steel. I had to turn off a SciFi special where a supposed 'Proffessor' didn't know that Dinosaur bones were not actually 'bones' but fossels.[V] (What writer put that in????)
- Anyway, would 'Shogun' still be a great book without all the Japanese culture and perspective?
- If I'm going to write a story on another culture, I certainly don't want to write it from the 20th century perspective.
- Relating S&S to this. REH did a lot of reading and research into Celtic culture. Conan many times is almost a steriotypical heroic Celtic figure. His ignorance, blind strength, his manipulations, his morals, even some of his dialogue is right out of Celtic folklore.
- He's shown as a strange figure compaired to the civilized people around him because he's taken from another time and people. He seems almost real because he IS almost real.
- Having real culture and ideals adds a lot to basic S&S, how much more would it add to a full sized Historical Drama? A piece where even the most basic cultural motovations of the characters are completely different than those of us, here in the 21st century.
- To write a real Historical Fantasy, I believe you have to know the culture first and write second.
- Of course that never- ever releaves the author of the responsibility of good storytelling. Without a good story, it's just a dry history book(and there are already lots of those out there!)
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ |
| Posted By : Supr - 7/26/2005 10:02 AM | Chandler wrote crime novels and in some of his storys you can't get the whole situation. You have the feeling everything is logical and perfect but in fact that doesn't make sence.
But Chandler was great storyteller and nobody is condemning him for his unconsequences.
And some wise books by boring professors you don't wanna read.
|
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 10:12 AM | Supr,
That's that avoidance technique we were discussing, plus you can leave a lot out of a contemporary setting, its assumed. The trolley runs and you don't have to say how people accept that it does. When Congor the barbarian librarian hops on the trolley in the city of spices you're going to have to sell that much harder. Probably better if he doesn't take the trolley because he's suspicous of its orgins, or that the horses be visibly hauling it about.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 7/26/2005 11:25 AM | Good points all---
I wrote a historical novel a few years ago (may just dust it off and rewrite it to my current taste--- it was a good story and the process of making it to print was interupted by divorce.... hmmm...)set in London in 1753. I actually went there, and walked the mean streets as part of my research. But I could afford it, and writing was not what was supporting me, though it was a welcome addition to my income. It was great being able to immerse myself in the place, the time and the culture, but it was not essential. I discovered that most of the details I found interesting were sadly not essential to the story and many could have been made up, especially some of the locations, and in fact I ended up fudging a travel time to make the narrative smoother.
As I said before, Burroughs never went to Africa, or to Mars. Didn't affect the flow or readability of his tales one little bit. that Tarzan fella is one of the most filmed characters in history, and one of the most easily recognized in literature, making Burroughs up there with Elvis as one of the richest dead guys in the graveyard.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : William King - 7/26/2005 1:11 PM | Michael- you actually went to London in 1753? Is there something you are not telling us, sir? :) Pact with the old horned gentleman in your sig, perhaps? Time machine in the attic?
Rob- I am simply pointing out that when it comes to historical accuracy I just don't care. Believe me, when I read your stories I wont fault you if you (or anybody else) get the bronze smithing details wrong - I will if the story bores me. All I require is that the world is plausible and internally consistent to the degree that it does not interfere with my willing suspension of disbelief. If you want to layer on more detail, that's fine by me. I just don't need it.
All the best,
Bill |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 1:19 PM | Heck Bill that's fair enough.
Mike T.
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 7/26/2005 1:39 PM | quote:
Michael- you actually went to London in 1753? Is there something you are not telling us, sir? :) Pact with the old horned gentleman in your sig, perhaps? Time machine in the attic?
Damnme if there isn't a story idea there....
You know, the problem with English as a first language is that it messes me up in all the others, eventually even in English.
Although London in 1753 would be interesting, it was also filthy, dangerous, and I suspect the food sucked even worse than it does now.
Naw, the truth is that I am older than I look [:)]
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 1:45 PM | Michael,
If you want filthy, dangerous cities where the food sucks, you don't need a time machine. Try Seoul, South Korea. Or Ziare in Africa. Better yet and close to home (I know I'm gonna get slammed for this) Fairborn Ohio.[:D]
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 7/26/2005 1:55 PM | erazmus---
Field trip!
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 7/26/2005 2:10 PM | quote:
All I require is that the world is plausible and internally consistent to the degree that it does not interfere with my willing suspension of disbelief. If you want to layer on more detail, that's fine by me. I just don't need it.
All the best,
Bill
- Not a problem. 'S not my way or the high way. 'Kings of the Night' is still a favorite of mine even when Howard wrote of Vikings fighting Romans.
- I'm just one of those people who stops and says-- Wait a minute! When L.Mc. wrote about the characters in Lonsome Dove 'hearing the roar of a Winchester 73, then the bigger roar of Gus' older Henry.' (For those who don't keep track, a Henry fired a .44-22 and a Win 73 fired a .44-40. 1/2 the powder charge doesn't make a 'bigger roar!' [:I]
- That sort of info is readily available and, if the author is going to go through the trouble of inserting the names, I think s/he should at least read about what s/he's inserting.
- I may be too touchy about such things, but-- oh well.[:D] (If I learned spelling, grammar, and punctuation as easily as I learn history, I could've been published years ago.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ |
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 7/26/2005 2:27 PM | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Better yet and close to home (I know I'm gonna get slammed for this) Fairborn Ohio.[:D]
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
You could always try Scarboro, the armpit of Toronto, but that means you'd have to give over your first-born to cross the border. [:)]
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| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 3:55 PM | Bruce,
I'll do it, only if they _promise_ not to give him back!
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 7/26/2005 3:58 PM | | I didn't find the food in Seoul to be that bad. Then again, I'm a big lover of Kimchee, and they put the damn stuff in everything over there! |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/26/2005 4:14 PM | Jay,
Well Seoul is pretty big, I suppose there's decent food somewhere there. I just couldn't find any. I'd been in Korea for almost two years when I got there, I didn't like the food, what can I say. I was used to Kimchee, been eating it everyday for months. Maybe it was just me. I was only there for one day looting artifacts . . .er . . .buying discards from their national nusimatics collection and from the national museum. I was a guard/bearer, my lietenant was buying. Went to a few other places, ate three times in different nieghborhoods, all three lousy meals.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/30/2005 6:30 PM | To get back on to something mister King said earlier, its not the details you leave out. The reader either won't care or at least can't say what you screwed up on. I don't think I've ever read a story where I said "Geeze, I wish they'd gone into more detail about how that smithy operated."
Now I may have done something like that in a science fiction story, especially one where the hardware becomes a plot point in some way and leaving out the details makes the reader feel a little cheated. But I've not often felt that way even then. I know I never sat around wishing Tolkien had put some detailed scenes in showing them reforging Andruil or what ever it was Aragorn renamed his sword. If it had been well done it might of been neat but it wasn't needed for the story (obviously) and if it'd been done poorly it would have brought the book down some.
I guess what I'm saying is "put in what ever detail the story and narrative style demand and let the others go."
That about right?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 7/30/2005 8:52 PM | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
To get back on to something mister King said earlier, its not the details you leave out. The reader either won't care or at least can't say what you screwed up on. I don't think I've ever read a story where I said "Geeze, I wish they'd gone into more detail about how that smithy operated."
- Things like that, however, can be part of the story. In 'Revenge of the Nightwolf' (Sent off to a publisher several months ago) I have a young backyard blacksmith heat an iron sword red-hot and quench it to temper it. For those who don't work hot iron- that would make it as brittle as glass!
- At that point, all those readers who've taken metal shop will be saying, 'wait, that's not right!'(attention-getter) when they read that part. The rest of the audience will just read along for a moment but will find out that it's not correct when he tries to use the sword and it snaps upon a critical blow. Throughout the rest of the story he works on his blacksmithing (but never in detail.)
- Home blacksmithing was a pivital skill for the Norse so I address it, not as a 'detail', but as an important part of the story. Real problems are useful in a fantasy story.
Rob.
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ |
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/31/2005 10:30 AM | My comments interspersed at the ***
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Mancebo
quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
To get back on to something mister King said earlier, its not the details you leave out. The reader either won't care or at least can't say what you screwed up on. I don't think I've ever read a story where I said "Geeze, I wish they'd gone into more detail about how that smithy operated."
- Things like that, however, can be part of the story. In 'Revenge of the Nightwolf' (Sent off to a publisher several months ago) I have a young backyard blacksmith heat an iron sword red-hot and quench it to temper it. For those who don't work hot iron- that would make it as brittle as glass!
****
It's different when something is an actual plot point. If you didn't have enough knowledge to know better, this plot probably wouldn't occur to you. As it did you no doubt took the time to check all the pertinate facts with the appropriate authorities as you included them in the story, just to be sure.
****
- At that point, all those readers who've taken metal shop will be saying, 'wait, that's not right!'(attention-getter) when they read that part. The rest of the audience will just read along for a moment but will find out that it's not correct when he tries to use the sword and it snaps upon a critical blow. Throughout the rest of the story he works on his blacksmithing (but never in detail.)
****
The trick to this is in the art of the writing. You have to hook the audience sufficently that they shout (one supposes to themselves) "That's not right!" without accompaning that shout by throwing the book (or worse, monitor) across the room for the dog to chew on. Given that you do, I'm following your point.
****
- Home blacksmithing was a pivital skill for the Norse so I address it, not as a 'detail', but as an important part of the story. Real problems are useful in a fantasy story.
Rob.
****
I never meant to say they weren't! All I'm saying is that if you're not writing about those problems there's no need to risk blowing the story by using unneeded details that you just get wrong.
Even worse is when you get the details exactly right but the 'popular' knowledge of the audience is at odds with your well reserched facts. Writers of alternate history run into this often, I'm told, as real history is quite different in details from the tenth grade european history you spent oogling the girl sitting in front of you twenty years ago. You can't please everybody.
Mike
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 8/1/2005 1:33 PM | quote:
real history is quite different in details from the tenth grade european history you spent oogling the girl sitting in front of you twenty years ago. You can't please everybody.
I don't know, ogling the girl sitting in front of me was a large part of my history.[;)]
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 8/1/2005 1:36 PM | Oh and Mike, next time you are up Seattle way, give us a hollar. If you are a fan of good Korean food, our Little Korea here in Tacoma has a couple of killer Korean barbeques.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/1/2005 2:22 PM | Michael,
I will, though don't wait up. The last time I was farther from home (Colorado Springs) than Denver was about eight years ago. Which means its about time. Maybe if I ever sell my book. . . .
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/2/2005 8:42 AM | Heck the replies I got in the "Where else to you get your S&S" thread are starting to depress me. I figured there was more out there and I just hadn't found it. There's some, but not a whole hell of a lot.
Maybe what makes The New! Improved! S&S is the fact that its the sole survivor S&S as well. Like four guys in a boat (that'd be Fafred, Mouser, Conan and Elric) with a couple of people hanging on the sides while the ship sinks in the background. We're the people hanging on the sides of the boat.
Sooner or later another ship will come by, and with the crew on the boat to guide us we'll be in charge in no time.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com |
| Posted By : jonesha - 8/2/2005 9:14 AM | Yeah, swords together, matey.
I'm digging the new issue of Black Gate. First two stories are right up our alley. I'll read another one or two tonight.
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/2/2005 9:23 AM | Right you are Howard. Now if we could just get one "new" character into that boat we'd be flying!
The new BG is great, I devoured it so fast I confuse the stories and I'll have to reread it. What a pity[;)]. When is your story coming out in it?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : jonesha - 8/2/2005 9:50 AM | John says they'll probably turn up in issue 10. Same characters just got an honorable mention over in the Year's Best Fantasy and Horror, thanks to their appearance in Paradox. I'm pretty jazzed about that.
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : William King - 8/2/2005 11:12 AM | Hey Howard- congratulations! That's great.
All the best,
Bill |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 8/2/2005 2:27 PM | Wow Howard, that coudldn't be more awesome! Congrats.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 8/2/2005 3:24 PM | Awesome, Howard! You rock!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : Rob Santa - 8/2/2005 5:12 PM | Dabir and Asim! Yay! I sent a manuscript to Chris Cevasco attached to a query regarding recurring characters. I have one, but I specifically mentioned D&A to see if he was going to print another one of your pieces. Good to hear. I look forward to seeing them again.
Rob
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| Posted By : erazmus - 8/2/2005 5:41 PM | Howard,
Congradulations on the mention! that totally rocks and now I'll have to go out and get a dang copy! (I usually do anyway, sooner or later) but they never seem to mention anyone I knew until I started hanging here.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : jonesha - 8/2/2005 6:09 PM | Thanks you all for your kind words. Chris runs a good magazine, one worthy of our support.
Rob, Chris doesn't have any new Dabir and Asim stories in the queue, but oddly, about eight hours before I heard the good word about the honorable mention I'd finished the rough draft of another Dabir and Asim story I'll be sending his way for consideration as soon as it cools in the window for a bit and gets some icing. And Sages and Swords will have another adventure of the lads as well. Looking forward to seeing your piece and the others in there!
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 8/2/2005 11:08 PM | BTW Mike, I have a piece in the slush at baen---
Funny thing, I can write a short story in an evening, in fact I did last night, but when I start something longer, it takes a couple of weeks to get through the first chapter. After that it flies, though. Maybe it is because with a short story I can hold the entire story in my head, but with a longer piece I have to slowly let the characters find themselves, and until I know them, they just don't speak to me.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/6/2005 2:13 PM | Michael,
Wait until you know them too well, they get mad at you and stop talking, except to snigger once in a while.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
| Posted By : JFCC - 8/9/2005 7:00 AM | Speaking for my own work, I find it very difficult to break out of the pseudo-medieval mindset.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but many of the stories in Flashing Swords tend have pseudo-medieval or traditional fantasy settings--I'm thinking of the Archivist, Delacroy and Gray Mist stories. And they're great stories.
On the advice of others, I'm trying to tell myself: no kings, no princes, no castles, no taverns, pubs, or inns, no stereotypical wizards, no stereotypical barbarians, no dragons, no forests, no elves, orcs, or halflings, and generally nothing to do with pre-18th century England...but, not being a student of any particular historical culture (other than perhaps Anglo-Saxon England), I feel like I can't write the stories I want to write because I'm under this heavy pressure to create an original setting.
Plus, there's the fact that a big part of me likes and enjoys the sort of settings used by Tolkien, Howard, and Leiber...
www.biggerboat.net |
| Posted By : erazmus - 8/9/2005 8:39 AM | JFCC,
Heck, I write the stories that come to me. You can't limit yourself too much. I wrote a story recently, some of the editors around here will eventually see it, probably, featured a monster, a Lamia. I know I'm gonna get wacked with the "D&D setting" issue. But D&D has taken every single decent monster, creature or what ever from any culture that ever existed on earth into its setting. I can't use a Lamia? A sphinx? An ogre? A dwarf? Bull****!
Just tell the best story you can. Try not to mention Hit Points.[:D] Unless your deliberatly aiming at game tropes, as I did in the last thing I sent out. If a story is entertaining and well written don't worry about it. If F&SF won't take it well, thats one reason their distribution's down. Keep sending it out, keep writing more of them and keep making them better. Sooner or later an enlightened editor somewhere will take them and people will enjoy them.
At the same time there are other settings besides generic medieval. Specific medieval would be a nice change of pace. Say twelfth century france, with dwarfs and dragons. Try a generic mideastern setting, like Sindbad the sailor. That's a setting I don't get to read nearly enough of and its a wondeful, wide open setting. I don't recall, in the Harryhousen movies, Captain Sinbad ever walking into a tavern. Coffee with a rich merchant, yes. Carousing in a bar, no. The pre-islamic persian empire and the Mogul empire of India are real nice places to play. They don't have to be real places, just inspired.
Hell even my D&D campains, back when I played, were often set in settings more exotic than familar.
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 |
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