The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=24648
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/4/2006 9:58 PM | | Flashing Swords print magazine (which, obviously, would contain "extra" content that you couldn't get online like maybe a letters column and a writing tips column...and maybe a regular column from some of our "local" star s and s writers :wink:
How many of you would subscribe? If the subscription was say, $25.00 a year? The shipping is a bit of a drag, with print pubs.
Send me an email or PM me. If enough people do so, I'll start the ball rolling to get FS into print.
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| Posted By : PaulMc - 10/5/2006 7:34 AM | Daniel said...Flashing Swords print magazine (which, obviously, would contain "extra" content that you couldn't get online like maybe a letters column and a writing tips column...and maybe a regular column from some of our "local" star s and s writers VIEW IMAGE How many of you would subscribe? If the subscription was say, $25.00 a year? The shipping is a bit of a drag, with print pubs. Send me an email or PM me. If enough people do so, I'll start the ball rolling to get FS into print.
I'd do it.
-- Paul McNamee
My Writings
The Tales of Doran Coyle
Managing Editor, SwordAndSorcery.org |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/5/2006 10:03 AM | We're up to 5 possible subscribers! Neeed ten times that many to justify a print version of FS -- tell your frends....
Daniel
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| Posted By : TRtheJ - 10/5/2006 12:53 PM | | I would subscribe.
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| Posted By : John Hocking - 10/5/2006 12:56 PM | | Me, too. |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/5/2006 2:13 PM | That's seven.... Keep'em comin'! 
Daniel
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| Posted By : erazmus - 10/5/2006 4:13 PM | Hmmnn, I don't know . . . a hard copy magazine full of S&S, in my mail box several times a year . . . let me think . . .
okay, ya talked me into it.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 10/5/2006 5:39 PM | I'd definitely subscribe.
Would you go the route of getting non-fic, reviews, columns, etc? |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/5/2006 6:34 PM | Well, there are 9 now! Only 41 more to go!
Daniel
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| Posted By : CharlesRR - 10/5/2006 6:41 PM | | I am so there. |
| Posted By : Kuroboshii - 10/5/2006 6:52 PM | Count me in. FS would make great campus reading, and I'm sure the occasional sale will be enough to cover the cost.
Sean T. M. Stiennon (AKA Suuran Songforge)
Check out my author page at www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon |
| Posted By : darkbow - 10/5/2006 7:42 PM | Add another one to the list.
http://tyjohnston.blogspot.com |
| Posted By : carnifexpress - 10/5/2006 7:43 PM | you know I will support it, although I'd also like to work with you in some capacity as well...
Armand Rosamilia
Visit Carnifex Press for more information!
Freehold short stories:
"Dew Scented" Stalking Shadows anthology
The Freehold site is now up!
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/5/2006 11:41 PM | That's 13 -- if we stall there, that would be symbolically correct, if disappointing!
Daniel
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| Posted By : Gael_Sword - 10/6/2006 3:23 AM | Count me in!
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| Posted By : nathan - 10/6/2006 11:38 AM | Well thank god we didn't stall at 13. Of course in Numerology 13=1+3. Which of course = 4.
4 being the number of Creation.
But really, more is better.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Dave Hardy - 10/6/2006 11:49 AM | That sounds like a good deal. I daresay I'd plunk down for F&S in print. I do read the online version, but I have limited screen time.A dial-up connection & only one networked computer in the home means a portable version is optimal. I usually print the F&S stories anyway.
Dave Hardy
Fire & Sword
Fire & Sword Blog |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/6/2006 11:52 AM | 15 -- still 35 short of the minimum number.
We're at numerological "6" now, which I won't even go into.....
Daniel
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/6/2006 11:55 AM | Would you go the route of getting non-fic, reviews, columns, etc?
***
Yes. I'd also look for another serial/episodic fiction feature. Maybe Quill and Quen? Or ... snag a series on spec from one of our loyal writers....
Daniel
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| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 10/6/2006 12:07 PM | I was out of town listening to some mind-altering music, so I'm late coming in.
I most definitely and enthusiastically would subscribe to a print Flashing Swords at $25.
Steve Goble
Visit www.stevegoble.com for news on upcoming stories or to visit my blog |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/6/2006 12:51 PM | 16! Eight more and we'll be halfway there!
Daniel
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/6/2006 1:25 PM | Add Rob Santa! That's 17....
Daniel
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| Posted By : Rob Santa - 10/6/2006 2:54 PM | And my brother...18. Since I'm a firm believer of putting my money where my mouth is (must be the poker player in me) how about we give thought to the idea of a good faith advance on the subscription? Make a donation to FS or swordandsorcery.org for, say, ten bucks? Once we hit that magic number, of course. Or before, which I'm sure would please Dan. 
Rob Santa |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/7/2006 9:44 AM | Are we stalled now? Not even halfway there! Are we to conclude there is not enough support among FS core readership to make the pub a print pub?
BTW, Rob, asking for actual money is probably scaring away a good number of posters! lol I definitely was going to cut the number in 1/2 mentally so far as pledges to actual subscribers, figuring when we DID start asking for subscription money (which we AREN'T YET) there would be a good % of pledges who didn't follow through on actuallybuying a sub.
SO, that in consioderation, we could average a total of 9 possible subscriptions from 18 pledges, which is 7 short of 1/2 the number I needed to even bring the print version up at the next PB meeting.....
Daniel
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| Posted By : Euan H. - 10/7/2006 10:48 AM | I'd subscribe, although for $25, I'd want to see a whole lot of neat artwork . . .
________________________________________________________
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| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 10/7/2006 11:51 PM | I do believe Daniel originally said to contact him privately,
Daniel said...
Send me an email or PM me. If enough people do so, I'll start the ball rolling to get FS into print.
which I did, indicating I would be interested in a print subscription. Perhaps there are others who have done the same.
-------------------------------------------------------
J Waltz
~ Read My Reviews @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com
~ Take The Challenge @ www.finepoll.com/display-poll~poll~124.htm |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/8/2006 12:38 AM | | No, I am keeping a live tally here in the forum of people who PM or Email; we have no "secret" supporters :-(
Count is 19 -- and ... maxed out?
Do I hear Mr. 20? Or better yet Mrs. 20! We haven't a single pledge from the fairer sex....
Daniel
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| Posted By : nathan - 10/8/2006 1:09 AM |
Dragon Angel said...I am so angry that more people haven't said yes.
Whose left? LOL. Maybe like 3 or 4 more people we regularly post with? I swear this board is so tight that if we ever all do make it to a con together it'll be like a high school reunion.
More is better but if my local Smith's store will put it on their newstand or something I think that would be the best thing. To bad there isn't a Shocklines for S&S, or a Shcoklines just friendly to S&S/Heroic Fantasy.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/8/2006 2:32 AM | More is better but if my local Smith's store will put it on their newstand or something I think that would be the best thing
***
Spoken like a true novice. Retail distribution is the LAST thing any small or even medium sized pub needs!!
What you need is a core group of subscribers. FS receives dozens of submissions a month; if even 10% of the submitting authors subscribed, we'd be able to justify a print version...
I wouldn't even be interested in producing a print mag for retail distribution as I've said many many times: that's just asking for trouble.....
Maybe FS will just be an e-zine with an annual print anthology.
BTW, I have the cover art for the Flashing Swords E-anthology in hand; it's very cool!
Daniel
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| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 10/8/2006 2:43 AM | Dragon Angel: I'm not angry, but I have to admit to being sad ...
We see so much discussion on these boards in which people rail about pseudo-literary aesthetics replacing good old-fashioned storytelling. We so many discussions in which people wonder about the future of fantasy fiction, where the trends will go. We see so many complaints that the "big" publishers aren't publishing what we want to see.
Then we have someone willing to deliver the kind of fiction we want, even offering some of it for free, and who stands up to buy it? Almost no one.
What the hell is wrong with this picture?
Steve Goble
Visit www.stevegoble.com for news on upcoming stories or to visit my blog |
| Posted By : carnifexpress - 10/8/2006 9:23 AM |
nathan said.
To bad there isn't a Shocklines for S&S, or a Shcoklines just friendly to S&S/Heroic Fantasy.
Perhaps someday soon there will be....
Armand Rosamilia says cryptically
Visit Carnifex Press for more information!
Freehold short stories:
"Dew Scented" Stalking Shadows anthology
The Freehold site is now up!
|
| Posted By : nathan - 10/8/2006 10:02 AM |
Daniel said...More is better but if my local Smith's store will put it on their newstand or something I think that would be the best thing *** Spoken like a true novice. Retail distribution is the LAST thing any small or even medium sized pub needs!!
Well -- this is true. I am a complete marketing novice.
Armand: the chair is against the wall. Susie's dress is blue.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : carnifexpress - 10/8/2006 10:06 AM | Nathan,
I thought it was: the red ball is on the table, but I could be wrong.
I've outlined a plan to get a true S&S online presence together ala shocklines and since Project Pulp won't answer e-mails or update, but a worried that it would be a conflict of interests, so I've been hesistant.
Armand Rosamilia
Visit Carnifex Press for more information!
Freehold short stories:
"Dew Scented" Stalking Shadows anthology
The Freehold site is now up!
|
| Posted By : Dragon Angel - 10/8/2006 10:10 AM | Maybe there are other people who would subscribe who don't come to the forums. I'd guess there are 5 people like that. So...we're talking about 15-25 actual subscribers?
read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle. |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/8/2006 1:58 PM | SFReader.com has over 700 *registered* members. Sword and Sorcery.org/Flashing Swords E-zine receives abt. 200 unique visitors a day and we have had 19 pledges to subscribe.
Now, consider from that fact, how many people then *read* any given story in any given venue. Factor in also, that there is no pub out there with some magic "big audience" where there are readers who aren't aspiring writers. You'll see why so many print magazines have the life-expectancy of a may fly.
The irony is: in truth, no writer should EVER submit work to a magazine or pub which they have not *recently* read. You simply have no business submitting to a pub that you are unfamiliar with. The only reason to submit an *unsolicited* ms to any market is because you've read that pub and decided your work might be a good fit.
Upwards of 90% of all unsolicted mss. to any venue are bounced and the reason in the vast majority of cases (other than incompetency) is that the writer submitted something inappropriate for the market's needs.
So, if writers were serious about their work, they would familiarize themselves with the markets they submit to. Without doing so there is a 99% chance they will be rejected anyway and they are really just wasting everyone's time and clogging up the slush piles for no good reason.
Take a magazine like Black Gate. They have very few subscribers and get a TON of submssions. Because so many of those submissions come from writers who are submitting blind, it takes 12-14 months for people to get a response and meanwhile you can all anticipate a day when John O' Neill just gets tired of spending thousands of dollars each quarter out of his own pocket to put out a magazine that no-one reads! Or buys from the bookstores, either.
So, I hope some of you are starting to get a picture of how this all works. I didn't want to burst anyone's bubble, but in a way I did, because the only thing more frustrating than NOT getting support from the core audience here is listening to them go on and on about "what somebody could/wopuld/should" do to re-energize print heroic fantasy short fiction.
Hopefully, this little demo will help folks keep a bit more perspective on the hellish realities facing print pubs and also -- remind everyone who wants to be a SF writer and especially when they want to get PAID for doing it: you have to have markets to send your work to and you must support these markets because there is no longer a substantial non-writer audience for print periodical short SF in America.....
Daniel
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| Posted By : LisaM - 10/8/2006 6:17 PM | As I was reading this thread and debating my own response, I realized something: I'm willing -- even eager -- to buy print anthologies of S&S, but I can't honestly say that I'd be interested in subscribing to a print magazine as a reader, rather than as someone essentially making a donation to support a worthy enterprise.
I bought both _Sages & Swords_ and _Lords of Swords_ and greatly enjoyed both. I'd buy more anthologies of this type in a heartbeat if they were out there. I may well buy extra copies for my brother's Christmas gift, since I know he also enjoys this type of fantasy and they're quality collections.
But a magazine subscription? If I didn't know any of the people involved and were looking at it purely as a reader? Nope. Not even if it contained the exact same fiction that I would be happy to buy in books.
I can't claim that these reasons are true for anybody else, but I'll give you mine:
-- A magazine comes stamped with a date. Perhaps it's a carryover from newsmagazines and other rapidly dated periodicals, but if I don't read a magazine within a month or two of its issue date, I feel like it's somehow gotten "stale" and is no longer good. Since I work a lot and often don't have time to read my purchases for months after I've bought them, this makes me less inclined to pick up magazines and even more reluctant to subscribe to them -- because that represents a theoretical commitment of future time that I'm not willing to make.
-- Magazines don't look nice and neat on the shelves the way books do. I like books. I like being able to arrange them on a shelf or in a stack and immediately locating whatever I want to read with a glance at its spine. I can't do that with magazines. They don't really lend themselves to keeping in the same way.
-- With a book, I know exactly what I'm getting at the time of purchase. With a magazine, I'm trusting the editor to pick out a good selection for me in the future, but at the time of purchase I can't be sure how it's going to work out. I may have a very good guess, but I don't actually know. And even if I trust and like one particular editor's tastes, there's always the possibility that he may retire or hand the business over to someone else, or not get any great submissions for a given issue, or whatever. There's just no way to be sure.
-- Books make good gifts for people. Magazine subscriptions, not so much. Sometimes I don't know the person's mailing address and it's awkward to ask. Other times it's related to one of the lists above. In any event, that too limits the number of purchases I make.
So, with apologies for the long post and the repeated disclaimer that these are just my reasons, that's why I wouldn't subscribe to a print edition if I were an outside reader. If there actually were a print version of Flashing Swords I'd buy it because I'd view it as a worthy venture, but that would be my reason.
Now, with that said, I love the e-zine and I hope it continues, because it's great to be able to send people a link to the website with a brief blurb along the lines of "here's something you might be interested in, and it's free!" People love free stuff, and it's a great hook to get them buying the print anthologies if they like the stories online. |
| Posted By : carnifexpress - 10/8/2006 6:36 PM | Lisa,
You bring up valid points... one of the reasons I decided to put Clash of Steel Magazine on hiatus was for some of the reasons you listed, as well as my financial situation... I thought that a print magazine was a big risk at a time when I couldn't afford to do it. For now Carnifex Press will rely on our single-author books with our anthologies scattered in.
I'm sure that Daniel can put out a great product and I'm sure he'll get the needed subscribers, including myself.
Armand Rosamilia
Visit Carnifex Press for more information!
Freehold short stories:
"Dew Scented" Stalking Shadows anthology
The Freehold site is now up!
|
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/8/2006 6:54 PM | Great post, Lisa!
Rest assured, FS will continue as an E-zine, with an annual print antho. I am not all that eager to start a print periodical, for the reasons you mention and more, but I would make FS print if there was a big enough demand.
Right now there doesn't seem to be; most of my comments upstream were meant to cast the discussion ina bigger light, like why *all* the print pubs ultimately start to stagger and then fall.
And also, why I think it *is*incumbent on writers to support short SF periodicals because they are the only ones who read short SF periodicals any more!
Over at the rumor mill someone was casting dispersions on PB for aksing writers for contributions<gasp>; meanwhile F&SF runs a "slush God" site with apparent impunity. LOL Add to that, the fact that F&SF has about a 1% conversion rate via their slushpile and you start to see just why they are open to unsolicted subs (most of which are returned in two or three *days*) in the first place. It is certainly not to find new talent, or they are very patient in looking for this one-percent. Comparitively, PB has a much higher conversion raten for submitters because we offer a wider range of publications: from Flashing Swords E-zine, to Prism Quarterly, to stand-alone novella prestige print editions, to trade-paperback anthologies and e-books.
When you are talking about print SF magazines, they are *all* dependent on writers or aspiring writers for their livelihood these days.
Daniel
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| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 10/8/2006 7:02 PM | Valid points, Dan, Lisa and Armand.
One thing I've observed, however, and this does apply to me (though I personally agree with Lisa's reason 2 in making my own purchases) is that most of the people I know don't really read short fiction. In fact, not many read anything outside of the mega-tomes and trilogies so popular now-a-days. With that in mind, the short fiction that is read is usually magazines. Because there it's expected, it's what the magazine was bought for in the first place. Because they're quicker reads, something caught their eye, whatever. Books, on the other hand, are expected to be, anticipated to be, longer reads, continuous reads; not broken up, unrelated stories with different protagonists, but one long story the reader can immerse themself in, become a character in. The complaints I hear about magazines are (1) too many advertisements and (2) crappy stories that don't meet the reader's image of the magazine. I believe neither of these would be a problem for a print Flashing Swords, however.
SOO, I mention all this to say that, while I've enjoyed the PB and Carnifex anthos and will buy more of them, and I like that I can include them on my shelves with all the other books, I'm really not an antho guy. Nor is anyone else I know. So perhaps that is one selling point in favor of the print magazines.
Anyhow, I just dropped in to say I've posted an emphatic advertisement for Sword & Sorcery.org and Flashing Swords on my blog. Not that I'm highly popular and majorly visited (yet), but every little bit helps, eh?
-------------------------------------------------------
J Waltz
~ Read My Reviews @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com
~ Take The Challenge @ www.finepoll.com/display-poll~poll~124.htm |
| Posted By : Dragon Angel - 10/8/2006 8:25 PM | Daniel,
Thanks for showing why a print version of FS isn't very practical.
On a side note, I'll go on file that anyone who calls themselves a god is showing something about themselves that is more than a little out of proportion to the reality. While I may call Jimi Hendrix a god on guitar, for Hendrix to say he is a god is just arrogant and self-obsessed.
How about a PDF version of the magazine so it is easier to print? Or is that a hassle too? I have no idea, having never owned a magazine or even made a PDF. I know Ray Gun Revival has a nice pretty PDF. Now if only printer ink didn't cost me about 30 bucks per tiny little cartridge....
read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle. |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/9/2006 12:43 PM | Dragon,
Paul Mc *was* transfering FS issues to pdf, I think. I don't know why he stopped.
I'm not sure how many people were availing themselves of the PDF format, either....
Daniel
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/9/2006 12:44 PM | ok, I give. What is this 'rumor mill' place you keep talking about?
***
www.speculations.com
|
| Posted By : jonesha - 10/9/2006 3:55 PM | Well, I'd subscribe.
Howard
Editor-in-Chief
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/9/2006 4:32 PM | Howard!
Swords Together!
Daniel
|
| Posted By : erazmus - 10/9/2006 4:56 PM | When I get my tax refund check next year, I plan to subscribe to several worthy publications. Until then, it was attend my one convention for this year (milehi38, three weeks coming) or subscribe to my regular magazines. The convention won.
Until then I can post all I want about how I would subscribe or not, but its all air.
If you have a anthology of FS stuff out next year, I'll be buying t then. If you have a magazine, I subscribe then. I'll be getting my subs to Black Gate and Weird Tales then as well. Maybe one or two others, maybe not.
But I'll add this, any writer who follows the 'rules' about markets and buys a copy or a subscription to every market they think may be possible for them to sell a story too, has a _lot_ more money to put into the writing biz than I do. I manage to slide in an occasional newsstand pub into my grocery budget. But I can't get too Jazzed about buying a 'magazine' that no one has ever heard of, or seen. I get what I can, I buy product from people I 'know' over the internet rather than blindly working my way through Ralan's market lists sending out money. I've sought out your publications more than once, and I've never been disappointed. I can't say the same for others.
Two years ago I sent off for about a dozen 'markets' I wanted to check out. All cashed my checks and half sent me the magazines I wanted. I can't take that kind of return ever again.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/9/2006 6:06 PM | Two years ago I sent off for about a dozen 'markets' I wanted to check out. All cashed my checks and half sent me the magazines I wanted. I can't take that kind of return ever again.
***
Let's just make it clear that NONE of those stiffs came from PB!!!
I suspect DNA pubs factors into the set of "stiffs" you experienced, eh?
Daniel
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/9/2006 6:10 PM | Mike,
On reading prospective markets: I stand by that. Why should you NEED to have more than a few markets in mind for your short fiction? There is no money in writing it, very little audience. You basically are just hobby-ing or looking to establish a publication history, correct?
So, the sheer # of markets one submits to is not nearly as important as one's familiarity with these prospective markets. If you got "stiffed" on subscriptions, what do you think is the fate of unsolicited slush subs and/or even the accepted stories at pubs like that?
Even more reason to be intimately familiar with the markets you write for IMHO. You really only need to be familiar with a small number of print pubs; publishing in fly-by-nights will hurt you not help you.
I think with e-zines it makes it a lot easier to research semipro markets for short SF, as well.
Also, you could raise money for your subs to prospective, solid markets very easily by trying your hand at some spec SF articles and non-fiction pieces, which are very easy to sell because everyone is too busy clogging up the slushpiles with their off-market fiction  that they never sub NF.
Daniel
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| Posted By : John M. Whalen - 10/9/2006 7:51 PM | Howdy Daniel,
I've been following this discussion with interest over the last several days. I know that print pubs in general are on the decline. In the newspaper game, which I'm somewhat familiar with, circulation figures are dropping like a stone down a well. In a way, newspapers are committing a kind of electronic suicide by offereing on-line versions for free. The theory is that advertising revenues from the on-line newspapers will be an additional source of income. It aint happening. People are dropping the hard copy newspaper and just reading headline and stories on screen. The Washington Post just offered an early out for its staff and lost 70 of their editorial staff, including some big names like Tom Shales, the TV critic. He's continuing as a freelancer, I think. The point is every paper in the US is losing money.
So the idea of starting new print magazines is probably risky at best in todays climate, if not downright foolhardy. Yet there are mags that survive and do quite well. But I'm talking about mass market mags. So I'm wondering why PitchBlack is only thinking in terms of small niche markets. From what you've been saying, Daniel, you envision only small mags supported mainly by the people writing for them. How is that going to make money? And if it wont' make money, why do it? And not only that doesn't it just keep the publication limited in terms of creativity if you just have the same dozen people writing stories?
I don't know what resources are available to Pitchblack, but if you are thinking of a print publication, why not go all the way? A mass market publication sold by subscription as well as retail. And why limit it to just one little niche like S&S. Why not something with a wider scope.
DARING ADVENTURE MAGAZINE, or TALES OF ADVENTURE or some such title, offering stories of different genres. A sword and sorcery, followed by space opera, horror, followed by adventures in the orient. Even a comic page (like Catspaw). You know what I mean? BUT you would have to include bigger name writers. Mix them in with the new and up and coming like Nathan, Hocking, Shrews, etc.. . Basically what your'e doing with Lords of Swords, but not as limited in the type of story.
I can't agree with the concept that the only ones who will support this type of pub are those who write them. There are many people out there craving these kinds of stories, who don't know the first thing about how to write one. And aren't interest in trying.
You know more about publishing and markets in this field than I do. Maybe the idea is unrealistic if not impossible Do you really think such an idea would not work? Have you done any research on something like this?
John
PS I mistakenly posted this as a new topic. Sorry. some day i'll get the hang of posting here. Please delete the new topic post. |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/9/2006 8:26 PM | John,
I never said there weren't readers who aren't writers, I said they don't read print periodical SF magazines and by and large that seems to be the case.
I'm not averse to making FS a print pub if we can get upwards of 50 subscribers; right now we have 19 pledges. I have zero interest in trying to float a print pub to retail stores; as far as I know there are no "returns" in the newspaper industry, but there sure are in the book and magazine industries! There is just now way I can see a print SF pub, that is distributed to retail stores, succeeding without the backing of a rich patron or mega corporation; even then, you may have trouble finding readers. I am saying: even with a six-figure PR budget I'd predict gloom.
SCI FICTION paid upward of ten cents a word for fiction, published award winning and critically acclaimed SF by superstar writers and had a superstar editor and had an entire cable channel looming behind it, plus an enewletter wiht over 100,000 subscribers and it still failed....
And that was an *e* zine! Imagine the toll had it been print! Even a quarterly pub like Black Gate runs into the tens of thousands of dollars per issue to print and that's not counting promotion. With less than 1k subscribers and sales (I'm guessing) there is NO question of breaking even, you won't.
People say ads, but that is a myth for the most part as well; print pubs almost never sell out their ad space. Even big mainstream print pubs are a huge risk.
The publishing world is changing. And even it weren't print SF magazines were *always* a very dicey game and not one I'd be willing to tackle without good cause!!! Forget the debt you'll go into -- think about the thousands of hours you'd have to cram into the pub. Imagine keeping up *one* webpage or blog regularly now times that by a thousand and you'll get an idea of what bi-monthly or even quarterly pubs face. It's really rough.
Daniel
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/9/2006 8:32 PM | I can't agree with the concept that the only ones who will support this type of pub are those who write them.
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Actually, I never said that. I said that those who aspire to write for them darned well better support them! And they better! Becasue whther we like it or not, there simply are not that many readers of short SF period. Of those, by far the vast majority are aspiring writers. That's just a fact.
But I never said it had to be that way or stay that way and I was specifically addressing the plight of the current short SF print and electronic periodicals (all of which depend heavily upon aspiring writers for support), not trade anthologies, novels, or series, or movies, or games, or .....
Daniel
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| Posted By : John M. Whalen - 10/9/2006 9:45 PM | Daniel,
Well, you're right. The kind of mag I'm thinking of would take big bucks, and probably the only way realisticallly it could be done would be to partner with some bigger outfit. But then Pitchblack and Flashing Swords would lose their autonomy and pretty soon you start turning out a Readers' Digest version of FS with recipes for S&S heroes favorite dishes (Savory Thipdar Soup!). It's depressing but the name of the game in business, including publishing, is megacorp. A few media giants control it all. Better to stay small and independent, I guess. But wouldn't it be nice to see a monthly Adventure magazine on the stands with old pulp style covers featuring heroes in pith helmets rescuing buxom babes from the grasp of leering gorillas. Never gonna happen.
John |
| Posted By : Paul - 10/9/2006 10:02 PM | SCI FICTION paid upward of ten cents a word for fiction, published award winning and critically acclaimed SF by superstar writers and had a superstar editor and had an entire cable channel looming behind it, plus an enewletter wiht over 100,000 subscribers and it still failed....
I'm going to have to disagree here. The term failing is not appropriate for how SCIFICTION ended. Like you said above, they paid highly, received a great number of submissions, and ended up publishing many award-winning stories. All while being backed by Ellen Datlow and SciFi. This could have gone on for many years, probably a lot more if they had just dropped the pay rate down to five cents. But SciFi decided that it, the company, did not want to spend money on the e-zine any more. SCIFICTION did not fail at all. Datlow did not give up on it, the company above her did.
When the news broke of SCIFICTION's demise, there was an uproar online. Blogs shouted despair! How could it be? Readers and writers were saddened to hear that it was being cancelled and there was nothing they could do about it. No fundraising, no donations, nothing. I'm pretty positive if they were allowed to donate money to the cause that they, the loyal readers and supporters, could have saved SCIFICTION. Nowadays, when an e-zine dies (Deep Magic) or a print magazine (Amazing Journeys) kicks it there is barely any response and the publications are soon nothing more than memories. SCIFICTION is still an important part of the SF world. The archives are still available for readers and are visited almost daily. Clearly, it did not fail.
Blog - http://wistfulwritings.blogspot.com/
Upcoming stories:
"The Dealer's Hands" in Shimmer's Spring 2006 issue
"Always Greener" in Shimmer's Summer 2006 issue
"Blood Hungry" in The Horror Library's April 2006 issue |
| Posted By : Euan H. - 10/9/2006 10:43 PM |
Daniel said...
The irony is: in truth, no writer should EVER submit work to a magazine or pub which they have not *recently* read. You simply have no business submitting to a pub that you are unfamiliar with. The only reason to submit an *unsolicited* ms to any market is because you've read that pub and decided your work might be a good fit.
This is good advice. I've sold three stories so far--two of them to places where I regularly read the content in the magazine. Also, since I subsribed to F&SF and Black Gate and studied their content more craefully, the rejections I've been getting have moved from form rejects to personalized 'not this time, but you were close, and do try again.'
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| Posted By : Euan H. - 10/9/2006 10:47 PM | Deep Magic died? It seemed like it was going strong . . .
And as for SciFiction, I agree that I can't see it as 'failing'. Had the plug pulled, sure, but failing . . . I don't know.
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| Posted By : nathan - 10/10/2006 12:29 AM |
Paul said...SCI FICTION paid upward of ten cents a word for fiction, published award winning and critically acclaimed SF by superstar writers and had a superstar editor and had an entire cable channel looming behind it, plus an enewletter wiht over 100,000 subscribers and it still failed....I'm going to have to disagree here. The term failing is not appropriate for how SCIFICTION ended. Like you said above, they paid highly, received a great number of submissions, and ended up publishing many award-winning stories. All while being backed by Ellen Datlow and SciFi. This could have gone on for many years, probably a lot more if they had just dropped the pay rate down to five cents. But SciFi decided that it, the company, did not want to spend money on the e-zine any more. SCIFICTION did not fail at all. Datlow did not give up on it, the company above her did. When the news broke of SCIFICTION's demise, there was an uproar online. Blogs shouted despair! How could it be? Readers and writers were saddened to hear that it was being cancelled and there was nothing they could do about it. No fundraising, no donations, nothing. I'm pretty positive if they were allowed to donate money to the cause that they, the loyal readers and supporters, could have saved SCIFICTION. Nowadays, when an e-zine dies (Deep Magic) or a print magazine (Amazing Journeys) kicks it there is barely any response and the publications are soon nothing more than memories. SCIFICTION is still an important part of the SF world. The archives are still available for readers and are visited almost daily. Clearly, it did not fail.
Why did they ditch it then? If it was succeeding on some level close to the reason they'd started it then why did they close it? (not arguing; I'm curious).
I did peruse it. (ED's reputation is impeccable and my limited HWA corespondance with her was also great because she was so low-key). I'd always hope they'd publish something like the stuff that makes it on cable channel -- Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, Hammerhead The Frenzy, Stargate (okay Hammerhead was a joke) reruns of Road Warrior amd Escape From New York ect, but it seemed literary minded -- I found that a strange disconnect--but I'm a lowbrow. (really look at that forehead, sloping over a potato nose, I wasn't born with that nose, I really had to piss a lot of people off to get it  ).
SCIFICTIONS closing struck me about as hard as if RoF closed, on a personal level -- but I am interested why Sci Fi corp would kill something if it was working for them on the level they had intended.
Change of management maybe?
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 4:01 AM | SCI FICTION failed *economically* guys, that's what I meant. If not, the plug would not have ever been pulled. No-one pulls a plug on an economically positive endeavor....
Sure, SCI FICTION rocked on quality, but even Datlow was disappointed in the # of readers, and the discussion forums were full of tumbleweeds.It was not succesful proportionate to the backing it had.
Now what could have an *adventure* centered e-pub done wiht the same corp backing and high profile awards, and backing and pay-rate????
Up for discussion, I guess, but I still wouldn't want to try it in print.
Daniel
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 4:06 AM | I'm pretty positive if they were allowed to donate money to the cause that they, the loyal readers and supporters, could have saved SCIFICTION.
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For how long? And at what level? Paying Datlow a decent salary and twenty cents a word for fiction? I hate to disagree on this, but I do disagree, I dont think SCI FICTION ever had that many readers honestly. The #'s I've seen on forums that Datlow quoted were not all that impressive, although individual stories that got some hype did (so I hear second hand, obviously) see spikes in traffic....
Daniel
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| Posted By : Kuroboshii - 10/10/2006 9:47 AM | | Euan,
The DM guys weren't getting enough support from their reader base (although they had monthly downloads of almost 2000) to continue paying even $25 a story, and they decided they wanted to go out at the top of their game rather than cut back to no-pay again and slowly fade away into nothingness.
I will say, though, that if I ever get my Flinteye novels published, Deep Magic will be remembered .
Sean T. M. Stiennon (AKA Suuran Songforge) Check out my author page at www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon |
| Posted By : nathan - 10/10/2006 11:41 AM |
Daniel said...SCI FICTION failed *economically* guys, that's what I meant. If not, the plug would not have ever been pulled. No-one pulls a plug on an economically positive endeavor.... Sure, SCI FICTION rocked on quality, but even Datlow was disappointed in the # of readers, and the discussion forums were full of tumbleweeds.It was not succesful proportionate to the backing it had. Now what could have an *adventure* centered e-pub done wiht the same corp backing and high profile awards, and backing and pay-rate???? Up for discussion, I guess, but I still wouldn't want to try it in print.
Yeah, Paul seemed pretty caught up with Sci Fiction so I didn't want to be too blunt (my grandmother never made any money in her life really either but I was still tore up when she passed) but "yeah." If it was working it wouldn't have failed and I always thought it had that whisper-rep of being accolade heavy and reader short.
I guess (guess don't know) but maybe they thought the readers for Sci Fi were somehow different than than the viewers for the channel? I mean come on: look at the sales demographic for commercials on that channel...is somebody who's flipping over Zombie Kill Kill Kill on the X-box going be highly likely to suddenly go "I want to read something literary now." ? (well yes, but not in numbers).
I don't know...sounds like I'm bashing SF but I don't really mean it that way, just that I never understood the disconnect. You know who'd be big with the demo? Mathew Rielly (Ice Station, Temple, Contest, Scarcrow and some jet-jockey cartoon script making him a million dollars): but I know the reading editors at SF would have laughed themselves silly.
Click on http://www.matthewreilly.com/ and read "The Mine" short story to see the direction I'm talking about. This guy is an international best seller and has fanboys like Star Wars -- yet I have a hunch most critics would be snickering themselves into a migraine at his tradecraft.
Okay I wandered a little. You know who I'd wish would piggyback a magazine projection? What in the hell ever that magazine is that I see all the time giving the shakedown on video games (GOd I wish I could remember the name). If'd they put 1-4 stories throughout the issue--short fast ones--then more exposure would be gained to audiences not currently picking up short story pubs and maybe there'd be bleed over. Considering their newstand saturation they'd prob pay all right too.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 11:54 AM | I guess (guess don't know) but maybe they thought the readers for Sci Fi were somehow different than than the viewers for the channel?
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I think they (if "they" means the SCI FI CHANNEL CORP) thought, and probably correctly, that short SF is no longer a viable medium in this tech-heavy/entertainment drenched era. It is obsolete. And that is a fact at the big corp level in America; thre is no serious player who shows the slightest interest in short SF. Although interest in SF in almost every other concievable medium including print fiction is at an all time zenith.
If by "they" you meant SCI FICTION'S editorial staff (which was just Datlow, I think) she would have published the same stories by the same writers no matter what pub or venue she was editing in the SF field. That was probably one of her gaffes (if she made any) -- not specifically searching for web-friendly fiction, per say, NOT trying to tie-in her ficiton selections to the Sci-Fi channel's programming, not making a play for the younger audience but sticking with her usual mature, agnostic, thinking-person's, dystopian sci-fi and horror, plus loads of spec-lit, deeply esoteric spec-lit, for which there will never be more than a coterie audience.
She had the name to get the gig at the SCI FICTION slot, and the political savvy to engineer repeated Nebulas and etc, but in the long run, her editorial vision seems out of synch with where popular sentiment evolved, away from cyberpunk and dystopia and intellectual sci-fi right back to Paolini and Rowling in numbers that SCI FICTION despite its obvious merits, and despite being free of charge, could have never commanded.
Daniel
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| Posted By : Dragon Angel - 10/10/2006 1:08 PM | It also fails as advertising in the following sense. THe people who read short science fiction are already fans of Science Fiction. They either already know about the SciFi channel and watch it, or they hate it. People who don't read science fiction aren't going to start reading it on the Sci Fi website and then start watching the channel. Not in great numbers, anyway.
read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle. |
| Posted By : James Enge - 10/10/2006 2:07 PM | I'm getting in on this late, as I've been travelling. I tried to post something on Saturday, actually, but the fershlugginer dial-up connection I was using conked out on me.
I'd pay to subscribe to Flashing Swords. (I bought and enjoyed Lords of Swords, so I've already put at least some of my money where my mouth is.) But I don't know if a print magazine or a "here's a sample of a story, pay for the rest" model is the way to go. Making people pay for site content is often a quick trip to irrelevance on the internet. (Consider the fate of the NYT's columnists under their TimesSelect program.)
The best approach, it seems to me, is the two tier system: a couple of free stories/features on the web, and some more that are subscriber-only. The subscriber-only stuff could be PDF/rtf/HTML files accessible by password (like the stuff at Baen's Universe), cutting out all those printing and postage expenses.
I wonder if raising word-rates is really a goal to shoot for, though. I know that, traditionally, pay rates have been the method by which to sort the pro from the semi-pro from the purely amateur... but, in fact, no one is a magazine pro anymore, not in the sf/f genres. There just aren't enough outlets publishing enough fiction at high enough rates for someone to make a decent living by writing for magazines.
What might make a real difference to the 'zine's long-term stability and buzz-worthiness, though, is if it came out more frequently. The more often and more reliably a site is updated the more likely people are to visit it. That's the way a readership can snowball, assuming readers like what they find.
And there's where I should probably shut my pie-hole. But something has been on my mind ever since issue 7 came out, and I might as well mention it here. I wonder if it's such a great idea to have the cover of Shrewsbury's The Whore of Jericho on the TOC page. I'm not knocking Steve Shrewsbury, who's a fine writer, or the book, which I haven't read. But between the title and the cover it gives a strong and not necessarily positive impression. I know a couple of people who went to the TOC page and declined to read further. Which is a shame, because there are some fine stories in that issue. But not everyone who is going to enjoy Berg's "Demon Heart" or Tarbox's "Detour at Abbinford" (or Shrews' own "Branwen's Soul") is going to be impressed by this stuff. The readership for Flashing Swords is already a niche audience; it seems like a mistake to narrow it down unnecessarily.
I suppose that's enough shooting at my own foot for one afternoon.
JE
James Enge
"Turn Up This Crooked Way" (selected by Rich Horton for his "Virtual Best" of 2005) in Black Gate 8
"Payment Deferred" in Black Gate 9
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6
"A Book of Silences" forthcoming in Black Gate 10 |
| Posted By : Dan Nelson - 10/10/2006 2:24 PM | Just back from vacation. I would subscribe for the $25.
Although it is curious to me that it was the free ezine that leads me to say that.
I ordered LOS through Amazon after seeing about it on the website because I wanted to see what kind of S&S was being written lately. I forget how I heard about the website. It may have been some random search or link (don't remember exactly). Then I read several issues of the e-zine which lead me to order Sages and donate. Without the free ezine, I would probably have just order LOS and that would have been it.
Not being a writer, at least outside of my daydreams, I am curious how important a per-word increase is to the authors in this forum. How much of an impact would that have? Whatever the answer, keep on writing! |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 2:32 PM | What might make a real difference to the 'zine's long-term stability and buzz-worthiness, though, is if it came out more frequently. The more often and more reliably a site is updated the more likely people are to visit it. That's the way a readership can snowball, assuming readers like what they find.
***
I think this is a very accurate observation.
***
And there's where I should probably shut my pie-hole. But something has been on my mind ever since issue 7 came out, and I might as well mention it here. I wonder if it's such a great idea to have the cover of Shrewsbury's The Whore of Jericho on the TOC page. I'm not knocking Steve Shrewsbury, who's a fine writer, or the book, which I haven't read. But between the title and the cover it gives a strong and not necessarily positive impression. I know a couple of people who went to the TOC page and declined to read further. Which is a shame, because there are some fine stories in that issue. But not everyone who is going to enjoy Berg's "Demon Heart" or Tarbox's "Detour at Abbinford" (or Shrews' own "Branwen's Soul") is going to be impressed by this stuff. The readership for Flashing Swords is already a niche audience; it seems like a mistake to narrow it down unnecessarily.
***
On this one, I differ in my opinion. The FS site exists in part to promote PB (and Carnifex Press) titles. That's one point; another is that the site exists to help promote the *current* titles.
And finally, no matter what we put on the ToC somebody would complain and "decline to read further." Prior to the Shrewsbury release we received a number of emails from FS supporters complaining the of "MZB" feminine-heavy feeling of the site, which in objective terms, is about as lucid as saying we're selling risque male-centered stuff, primarily.
But specifically, to the issue of sexual content, or what have you, I'll give you an example: Sages and Swords has experienced far fewer "impulse" shelf sales at retail stores than its predecessor Lords of Swords. Part of this drop in "impulse sales" can be accredited to the lack of any overt eroticism in the cover art or title. Sages, after all, boasts Tanith lee and RA Salvatore! Among others and we have had really good feedback on bioth anthos from those who have purchased and read it The only "dip" is in impulse buyers in retail stores.
If anything, I'd *rather* see the demographic for all of PB's heroic fantasy titles broaden out away from those who are offended or bored by displays of heroic fantasy eros and toward those who turned on by it because as is obviously demonstrable from the much touted "lack of support" among the exisiting SF audience (much of which is comprised of mature, stable, educated, aspiring writers) kind of points to a very low ceiling for maximum sell through potential. In effect, we already have that.....
What we need are new readers and contributors. And you'll see PB moving further into sexually provocative heroic fantasy, (via our specialty prestige print books and e-books and in conjunction with our new friends at Falling Angel Press) rather than further away, as we move along. This probably won't impact FS directly so far as content, although we do have something by one of Falling Angel's star writers slated for an upcoming issue. This guy is absolutely the most talented young fantasy writer I have read in years, (and, no, it's not Sean, though he has story upcoming at FS as well!); so I can't see anyone who loves sword and sorcery objecting to that.
I appreciate your excellent insight and support!
Daniel
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 2:53 PM | That's the way a readership can snowball, assuming readers like what they find.
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Anything you put up and promote, even a mindless blog, will attract readers. Whether you can convert them into *supporters* for other projects is another question altogether. There are witless blogsites out there that attract 100X the traffic the FS gets each day, but they are incapable of harnassing that energy to accomplish very much, whether economically or influentially.
There would be readers, as many as FS has now, who supported what FS published if all we printed was fan-fiction with no literary merit whatsoever. We'd probably get more readers. If we did nothing but stories about cats, we'd get more readers. Just dragons, more readers.
I don't think folks are as discriminating about content as you may think; most people who come to FS don't actually read through the stories; they receive very few hits compared to the Sword and Sorcery main page or Cat's Paw, or the LoS author bios, even. You might make the case that *only* prospective contributors are even reading the fiction at FS; this seemed particularly true *prior* to issue seven. The prospective contributors do comprise a very vocal element in the forums, but that is a will-o-the-wisp, as shown by the "subscription drive" if you are talking about building a solid audience base. This is a solid contributor base, I could get that just by listing at Ralan or Duotrope....
However, and as always, we DO deeply value your support and creativity!!! And we hope to continue to make FS as strong as it can be....
Daniel
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| Posted By : nathan - 10/10/2006 2:55 PM |
Dan Nelson said...
Not being a writer, at least outside of my daydreams, I am curious how important a per-word increase is to the authors in this forum. How much of an impact would that have? Whatever the answer, keep on writing!
I guess I can take a crack at this from my own somewhat confused viewpoint. I hope other LOS and FS writers share their view as well.
I'm conflicted because so many issues are in play here. Let's set aside the "more money is always better" easy view for a second -- that's obvious and generic.
The problem with pay rates leaves me chasing my tail. Writers write as well as they write at 1-cent a word as they do at 25-cents a word -- your skill is a constant (if growing over time) thing. If you didn't like my 3 stories in FS at current rates but Howard/Daniel did, then the same thing happens at 10 or 100-bucks a word.
And when it comes to genre if you want to write certain genres (and, gasp--lol--S&S is one) then you have to go to the places that pub them -- so since only a tiny fraction of people make a living writing shorts it's all 4 The Luv in a sense. 200$ bucks for a story feels better than $25 -- but come on. If your not making at least a grand or 2 per tale across many pubs you arent going to pay the rent. So write shorts for the luv and publish where you're appreciated (or to help promote your books).
However this is America. Money talks even when it doesn't make much sense. A writer judges his job performance on pay. So most people think pay rates equal skill or success and sub accordingly. And the pro-writer organizationss don't help. They have a union mentality that is understandable (if an editor can make more money by a paying a writer less what good business man wouldn't leap at that chance?). They don't think craftsmen should work for less than "scale": which is 5-cents a word.
The difference between 3-cents and 5-cents a word is laughable, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
So it leaves me confused. If I want to (for example) write stories I like to read I'm not going to make those Sci Fiction rates -- let alone New Yorker or Playboy.
But in general if you raise the pay rates you get more slush. More slush means hopefully those writers who only sub to certain ray-rates because they've built up a solid resume. Hopefully that means better stories -- which is suppossed to mean more sales.
But... when you're talking genre fiction that ain't always so. A newbie writing with a true luv of S&S and solid (if unspectacular) skills has a better chance of writing a tale other S&S fans will love than someone who only likes lit-spec and tries to deign to churn out some "easy" genre work for 25-cents a word.
And lastly there's the hope that if you raise pay high enough a John Ringo or Jordon or Paloni would consider writing a short and their name generates sales -- but mainly that level rights by invitation and negotiation anyway.
Do I sound conflicted?
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 3:10 PM | wonder if raising word-rates is really a goal to shoot for, though. I k
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We're doing it because we love our contributors. It's that simple. That's why i got so uptight about people insinuating we're trying to take advantage of authors, when as I have tried to demonstrate the whole she-bang presently exists FOR them.
The author pay-rates will go up because it is good for maorale; like Nathan said, money talks even when it is irrational and I LIKE demonstarting this kind of affluence in the face of ridicule! And predictions of gloom.
Now here's a secret I bet NONE of you realize: ALL of PB"s titles exist to help aspiring writers. If you look closely, you can see this for yourself. If you think we (or anyone else in short Sf) is getting rich from them you are incorrect in that assumption. If you think SF writers are finding footholds toward making careers doing what they love via PB, you are absolutely correct.
PB makes much more money on non short SF projects. It is very amusing, however, that so many people simultaneously envision small press publishers as greedy and -- at their ropes' end.
The relaity is: all the harping for support is to guve YOU a place to publish the fiction you love to write and say you love to read. No smoke and mirrors, nothing up our sleeves. It is something we all love, but it does take at least a token of economic support from its core audience to sustain. If we don't ask, you assume everyone *else* is taking care of busniess; if we *ask* for donations people start predicting our doom
Daniel
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| Posted By : erazmus - 10/10/2006 4:39 PM | Sorry so late getting back to this. Daniel no, DNA sent me everything that I paid for and more. I subbed to Weird tales when they had it, and Fantastic, and got every single issue as it came out. Tyree Cambell never sent me the sample issue of Aiofee's Kiss, I figure the payment got goofed up in Paypal, which I've never used since. Electric Velocipede sent me an issue which arrived eight months later, torn to shreds, I'll say it was maybe an issue with the USPS. Others stopped doing buisness before I got my issue. I had better luck with Black October, they sent me the number of issues I ordered, four. Only two different issues but a total of four. Flesh and Blood sent all of its issues, as did City Slab. Cemetery Dance sent me _More_ than I ordered, I'm pretty sure I paid for one year but I got two. I buy Pitch-Black products at my local B&N, hoping they will stock and shelve a few eventually.
I think it great that FS pays at all. You have no solid revenue stream attached to FS, so I don't see how raising the rates will help make more money. It will help attract more writers to the slush pile, giving you a larger choice of material, but I liked the material before plenty fine and don't really want to see Jay Lake and Robert Reed there, though it would be cool to see them write a bit of kick A__ S&S. A penny a word, two pennies a word, neither one will cover the rent. As you or someone said, its a hobby or a foundation.
I don't have anyplace that regularly buys what I write, so I'm looking. I don't write to market much, I write what I write and try to find places that like what I do. Otherwise I end up chasing after editors, anticipating within my story, which I just don't do well.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 5:31 PM | You have no solid revenue stream attached to FS, so I don't see how raising the rates will help make more money.
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That was not the intention as I have been saying; it is a show of support for the genre and the contributors, period. I try to lead by example, you know , so I persoanlly picked up the slack where others had decided to forego monetary support. I have said many many times that I feel monetrary compensation for short SF is pretty much an antiquated notion, but I don't mind supporting those writers who I feel have a future in the genre because it is *good for the genre.* I'm not sure where the idea of "making money" ever came in to this discussion of FS or any SF pub -- the flat trutha s I have been saying all along is -- none of them make money and you know that's not ALWAYS the point of creative work, after-all.
FS functions as a loss-leader for PB, and it's a good one, so I don't mind throiwing some $$$ at it to make it prouder, stornger, and possibly more attractive to aspiring fantasy writers. It is my intention to follow up the pay-rate hike with a sustained search for new talent, hopefully to draw authors out of FS lineup to help pad out PB's line of novels and trade paperbacks. Plus, give a good rallying point for fantasy enthusiasts and buck up the whole works with a much-needed *adventure* centered heroic fantasy e-zine.
Daniel
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| Posted By : darkbow - 10/10/2006 7:43 PM | "It is my intention to follow up the pay-rate hike with a sustained search for new talent, hopefully to draw authors out of FS lineup to help pad out PB's line of novels and trade paperbacks."
Daniel, not to jump the gun, but does this mean PB is looking to publish more novel-lenght projects in the near future?
(Don't worry, I'm not finished with my 300,000 word trilogy -- yet!)
http://tyjohnston.blogspot.com |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/10/2006 8:54 PM | Daniel, not to jump the gun, but does this mean PB is looking to publish more novel-length projects in the near future?
***
Absolutely!
Daniel
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| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 10/11/2006 12:35 AM | Upstream the discussion was about pay rates for authors. Here's my take on that:
For short fiction, I don't think pay rates matter a whole lot. A cent a word, five cents a word, so what? Still, I submit almost exclusively to paying markets. Why? Because, to me, paying the authors is an indication the publisher is serious about what's going on. If the publisher is paying writers it implies a certain level of choosiness in accepting stories, a likelihood of actual editing, an attempt to let the world know the stuff is there and a determination to stick around a while. Those are the kinds of publishers I want to work with.
Higher pay rates don't guarantee professionalism. I've been treated wonderfully by editors paying a quarter-cent a word, and not so well by editors paying a good deal more. (Let me hasten to add that Daniel Blackston and Howard Jones have always been great to work with, judging by my experience). But, all in all, submitting to paying markets seems to serve authors better than submitting to non-paying markets.
Some of those no-pay markets, though, act as professionally as publishers with money. I have donated work to venues I believe in, and may do so again someday. To me, quality and enthusiasm are the key ingredients -- and not always measurable by a pay scale.
Steve Goble
Visit www.stevegoble.com for news on upcoming stories or to visit my blog |
| Posted By : Daniel - 10/11/2006 1:43 AM | Here, here!
I think I was quite vocal on the subject a while back! And in my essay in Sages.
At least I know is FS ever has to go no-pay, we'll still have contributors!
And, hey, anyone who wants to donate their fiction to FS, well, I wouldn't try to stop them!!!!
Daniel
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| Posted By : erazmus - 10/11/2006 12:41 PM | I think I submit to paying markets only because I feel my work is more likely to be seen in them. Let me elaborate- I have an odd personal quirk, I prefer print publication. I've sold stories to web-zines and submit to them, but I prefer to see hard copy. Lots of reasons, all irrelavant.
Snce coming on this board I've changed my goals, in short fiction. I no longer ache for publication in the top scale paying markets. I still submit to them, but I send a lot of stories elsewhere as well, and sooner in the process, like first if I like the pub and think a story will fit. When I started I sent a story out to the highest paying market that could concievably take it, then the next highest and so forth. I know a _lot_ of writers who do this. Ther is a logic too this. As one editor says in his GL, don't edit my magazine for me, send me your stories and let me reject them, you might be surprised. I don't think many writers really like hearing an editor say "I wish I'd publshed that story" about a story of theres that went to a quarter cent a word market, when the editor in question pays eight cents a word and they didn't send it to him.
But really, how often does that happen? The reason I sub to paying markets now is that most have better distribution than non-paying markets, (remember my personal print bias). But I sub to places that I like before places that I don't. I sub to one cent a word pubs that cover my story type exclusively before I send one away to mass market print that only publish that niche one in an eclispe. My logic now is sort of-- I want the people who do read my story to like it.
I think a Flashing Swords anthology would be a great thing, an annual collection of FS's stories. I'd buy that, every year.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises |
| Posted By : Dan Nelson - 10/11/2006 4:17 PM | | The fact that the stories are paid for does lend them a certain respectability. That we are reading the best of the slush pile and not the slush pile itself. |
| Posted By : erazmus - 10/11/2006 4:53 PM | Exactly.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 10/11/2006 6:35 PM | I enjoyed a long drunken discussion in the hospitality suite at Vcon this weekend about this very thing. Money is the universal symbol of value given and received. I don't mind making as a premium rate the same as the old pulpers did in the 1930's, as I am not counting on the income, but to get nothing feels like I have placed my stuff as having no value at all.
"The View from the Shotglass Floor" T. N. Thomas' TimeFlash, August 2006
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, July 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ |
| Posted By : nathan - 10/11/2006 7:05 PM | I love long drunken discussions! I really have to get to more cons...
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Dragon Angel - 10/11/2006 11:06 PM |
MichaelEhart said...I enjoyed a long drunken discussion in the hospitality suite at Vcon this weekend about this very thing. Money is the universal symbol of value given and received. I don't mind making as a premium rate the same as the old pulpers did in the 1930's, as I am not counting on the income, but to get nothing feels like I have placed my stuff as having no value at all.
Or, worse, that you can't even give what you write away.
read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle. |
| Posted By : Scott M. Sandridge - 10/13/2006 2:02 PM | Me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me!!!!!!!
Do all my personalities count as one each? 
Distant Passages: The Best from Double-Edged Publishing 2005
Which lich fell in the ditch? |
| Posted By : Wild Ape - 10/13/2006 9:41 PM | Hang in there. I've told a couple of friends who are likely to see this place and love it. Things take time to snowball. I started reading about a year ago. I keep coming back and reading. Keep pumping out quality stuff and this will work. I think Catspaw certainly brings in the traffic. People will start to explore. I think you need to add some pictures to the ezines. Do you all accept pictures? That may help.
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| Posted By : Euan H. - 10/13/2006 10:27 PM | Adding pictures to the ezine => good idea, IMO.
Especially if the Catspaw chap did them.
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| Posted By : Daniel - 10/14/2006 2:04 PM | Pictures! What is this -- early readers program!
Just kidding, I'll see what I can do!
Daniel
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| Posted By : Supr - 10/24/2006 2:41 AM | | I'd subscribe |
| Posted By : Wild Ape - 10/29/2006 1:20 PM | I think your idea of flash fiction may work as well. It will allow more room for many authors. I'm planning on sending you some stuff and I know it will encourage me to see my work accepted and printed in an ezine. Artists would too.
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| Posted By : Daniel - 11/18/2006 7:39 PM | | Thank you to everyone who offered to subscribe to the print version of Flashing Swords. Pitch-Black is strongly considering the possibility of releasing a print version of Flashing Swords.
Right now, we'd like to see a few of our good friends and supporters, take advantage of the release of the Flashing Swords E-Anthology. If you really want to see us to a print version, show your enthusiasm by purchasing the E-antho today.
ORDER NOW through this link:
As always, we deeply value your support. Those of you who have pledged to subscribe have earned a special place in PB's hearts and minds. I am absolutely thrilled to see so many of you who show such strong support for Flashing Swords. Please order the E-antho as soon as you can; it is loaded with delicious sword and sorcery fiction!
Daniel
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| Posted By : darkbow - 11/18/2006 8:39 PM | To back up Daniel a little ... I've got the Flashing Swords E-Anthology. I'm not finished with it yet, but so far it's some great stuff. Once I'm finished I'll post a critique. So far my favorite story is Steve Goble's Spider John tale.
www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com |
| Posted By : Daniel - 11/18/2006 9:31 PM | Thanks, Darkbow!!! Appreciate your order.
Let's hope a few more FS supporters will make their voices heard.
Daniel
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| Posted By : Dan Nelson - 11/18/2006 10:43 PM | | It is well worth the cost of admission.
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| Posted By : Daniel - 11/22/2006 11:47 AM | Mr. Nelson, you are a warrior with a very sharp sword!!!! Thank you so much for your generosity in sending a notable donation to FS, recently.
I only wish more of our core-supporters would follow your example; I personally have matched each of the sizable donations that have come in recently, so folks who dodonate are getting double-bang for their buck so FS may truly prosper!!!!
Thank you for being a true supporter of FS and Sword and Sorcery. And thanks to *everyone* who has donated or purchased the FS E-antho!!!!
We deeply value your support!
Daniel
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| Posted By : Dan Nelson - 11/22/2006 6:34 PM | Your Welcome,
keep writing and publishing everyone
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| Posted By : gardnersteve - 1/16/2007 1:14 AM | Sorry to be late to the party, but I would also purchase a print subscription of the flashing swords stories. There are so real gems in there that I'd like to have in my library.
If we could also buy a print copy of the past issues so we could collect the whole run of flashing swords that would be great!!!
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 1/24/2007 4:08 PM | | Daniel,
That link to the e-antho takes me to a site that says "product not found". Is there a more current link?
Jordan |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 1/24/2007 5:07 PM | | To tell the truth, I've sold stories to TSR, RGR, and DKA, and though they're paying markets, I've turned around and redonated the payment back to the magazine. So, I don't make anything from the story, but the fact that they DO pay makes a difference.
As for mike's point of not having the money to subscribe to every place you submit, I totally agree. It's a vicious circle I guess. If I could sell a story for $500, I'd subscribe to a lot of magazines... but I can't (yet ), so I don't.
However, this thread has totally convinced me to support PBB. I've felt recently like there's fewer and fewer markets to sub to, and those that still exist are in trouble. It seems like you're bound to lose money publishing short fiction these days. To hear a publisher talk about losing a few bucks to help up-and-comers is inspiring. I think the PBB model of using the short fiction market to find talented new authors is the only model that has a chance of turning a profit these days. It's a great idea.
Jordan |
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