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| Posted By : jonesha - 1/3/2005 2:33 AM | The debut issue of Flashing Swords ezine is live and waiting for you!
We've got a fantastic lineup of fiction, including stories by Warhammer novelist William King, Lords of Swords authors Joe McCullough and D.K. Latta, a Viking pulp reprint from Harold Lamb, and one of S.C. Bryce's tales of the Gray Mist!
Don't miss it!
Howard Andrew Jones |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/3/2005 2:34 AM | Flashing Swords can be found at
www.swordandsorcery.org |
| Posted By : John Hocking - 1/3/2005 4:28 AM | Very enjoyable tales in a cool, readable format.
I'd have bought this "magazine" off any newstand and considered my investment well spent- and I've only read two of the stories.
William King's tale is Extra-Hardboiled and will deliver a jolt to even jaded fans of the darkest Sword & Sorcery.
And how cool is it to read Harold Lamb historical fiction unseen since the heyday of the pulps?
This is such nifty stuff in such a cool package, I really hope word gets out about it. It's so good, so easy to read, and so...well...FREE, that you'd think any number of fantasy fans would love it.
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| Posted By : jonesha - 1/3/2005 4:54 AM | Hey John,
I was delighted to find that William King piece in my mailbox. I'm glad you liked it--I thought it top notch.
And what did you, as a writer of Viking yarns, think of Lamb's Viking tale?
Howard |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/3/2005 6:54 AM | Awesome site!!! Great job Howard and Dave!! I'm with John, I'd buy this mag off the shelf in a flash -- so everyone help spread the word!!!
Daniel |
| Posted By : John Hocking - 1/4/2005 4:54 PM | "And what did you, as a writer of Viking yarns, think of Lamb's Viking tale?"
I like Lamb's stuff, so I was unsurprised to find myself rolling right through it after I told myself I should be in bed. It's a strong, straight-forward tale about a strong, straight-forward fellow. The Viking's dialogue is clearly saga-inspired- full of blunt, stoic observations. The author's mammoth knowledge of history is worn lightly, displayed in details appropriate to the tale without ever stopping the flow of events to ground things or lecture. A number of modern historical novelists might take a cue from that.
And the layout makes the site easy to read, too. I like that parchment background; it's easy on the eyes. |
| Posted By : Raph - 1/4/2005 9:34 PM | Great job, guys. I also would buy this off a newsstand. I especially liked the King story. Kudos to all involved with bringing us this great new 'zine.
Mike O. |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/5/2005 12:15 PM | The site looks really good. I've only had a chance to read two of the stories so far but both were great. For the last couple of years I've been recommending William King's Gotrek and Felix novels to anyone who loves pulp action yarns. King fits right in with the classic Sword & Sorcery writers. This latest short story doesn't disappoint. Really like the new character. Also glad to see that someone can use elves and dwarves in their fiction and still have a hard edge. I love Tolkien, but many of his imitators have given elves a bad name, so much that fans of more hardboiled often work won't go near anything with pointy ears.
The Harold Lamb story was something of a revelation. I've read Lamb before, but mostly his Khlit the Cossack stories. What amazed me about the Golden Empress was how contemporary the prose felt. If I hadn't known who Lamb was, I'd have thought the story was written recently. The other thing I noted was how much plot was jammed into the short. There's enough material there for a novel. Action, intrigue, romance, and more than a touch of humor. I'm glad you have access to so much of Lamb's work, Howard. Thanks for making it available.
Charles R |
| Posted By : BethS - 1/5/2005 2:56 PM | Howard,
I've not had a chance to read the stories yet, but it looks beautiful. Congratulations!
Beth
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| Posted By : Daniel - 1/5/2005 6:37 PM | Thanks all! Remember, purchasing the Lords of Swords anthology really helps Pitch-Black,LLC. keep cool projcets like Flashing Swords E-zine going strong. We're getting rave reactions to the antho from readers -- grab yourself a copy if you haven't yet.
As always, order through www.pitchblackbooks.com or the Sword and Sorcery site itself.
Daniel |
| Posted By : Petor - 1/7/2005 12:53 AM | Okay, here it is. In my excitement of reading my first tale in FLASHING SWORDS EZINE, I missed Howard's thread and dumped my comments under the PITCH BLACK BOOKS thread. So here are my 'ments where they are supposed to be...
I started with the Harold Lamb story just because I've heard you, Howard, talk and offer up so much about him. THE GOLDEN EMPRESS was great. My favorite part...when the Vikings leave the inlet and Harald's manuever over the chain. Loved it! I'd love to read more of Lamb's material. Next up is THE BURNING RIVER.
I enjoy King's work and can't wait to read THE GUARDIAN OF THE DAWN. I read his Warhammer novel GIANTSLAYER. It is truly great material.
I am attaching some feedback from a friend of mine who checked out the zine but probably won't ever slip onto this board to comment...
"I finished reading the FS ebook you mentioned. The first 2 stories are very similar...hero fails to save charges in his care, sort of depressing for me. Now the Harold Lamb story was great, exotic, save-the-girl adventure (what else to expect from him?!), even though it contained no supernatural elements. In the next 2 stories, the heros did save their charges and overcome the Evils. The one story about the hero with the large, hairy, clawed arm reminded me of a comic s&s swordsman (from the '70's, I think), who also had the same type of arm. I think he got it from his demon father, if I'm not mistaken. It'd be interesting to see where this current hero got his."
Anyway, keep up the great work and great content! Five stars!
HIGH FANTASY ONLINE (www.highfantasy.iwarp.com) |
| Posted By : Dave - 1/7/2005 4:16 AM | I haven't read the stories - despite being the webmaster! - but I recall the comic book hero your friend mentioned, and, in fact, have an issue still. It's title Claw, from DC comics, and concerns a swordsman who has a demon claw for a hand. The demon claw exerts an evil influence over him (a la Stormbringer over Elric) and he contains it's evil by uise of a magical gauntlet. In the issue I have, the gauntlet has been stolen adn he is seeking to recover it while at the same time trying to avoid coming under thrall to his demon hand.
Good stuff.....
Dave
SFReader Webmaster |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/7/2005 8:15 AM | There was also an issue of Marvel's Conan the Barbarian where Conan's Red bearded pal, Fafnir, having lost his own arm, had a hairy apelike limb attached it its place. Unfortunately this was a sword & sorcery comic so the arm possessed Fafnir and tried to kill everyone...
Charles R |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/7/2005 8:28 AM | Dave, who wrote that old comic? I'd be curious to know. I was wondering if it was Mike Grell. I remember his Warlord comic being pretty cool up through the first few years. Maybe I can find someone better-schooled than I am in fantasy comic history and an article on sword and sorcery in the comics can be drafted for the sword and sorcery site.
I'm sure that any similarities between D.K.'s character and these other guys is coincidence. I thought he did a really nice job with the concept and hope he'll write some more adventures featuring the same character.
best,
Howard |
| Posted By : Petor - 1/7/2005 8:31 AM | Well, who says you can't take something old, or something done before, and make it new and exciting and create your own unique character and storyline. My hat is off to Mr. Latta for doing just that! Excellent tale, D.K.! More Zargatha, I say!
HIGH FANTASY ONLINE (www.highfantasy.iwarp.com) |
| Posted By : Petor - 1/7/2005 8:50 AM | Plus if the material is fresh and the voice is unique and the story is good, that's what it's all about anyway, right? Latta's material isn't a pastiche of anyone or anything I have read.
Again, I say MORE Zargatha!
HIGH FANTASY ONLINE (www.highfantasy.iwarp.com) |
| Posted By : Dave - 1/7/2005 9:45 AM | Credits attribute Ernie Chua (artist) and David Michelinie (writer)
Ain't the web grand?
http://www.quarterbin.net/recycleb/rb46.html
Dave
SFReader Webmaster |
| Posted By : BethS - 1/7/2005 9:56 AM | quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Credits attribute Ernie Chua (artist) and David Michelinie (writer)
Ain't the web grand?
http://www.quarterbin.net/recycleb/rb46.html
"...But the dark-maned giant's origins matter little to the feminine eyes that coat his sun-bronzed form with sighful gazes...
Like, gag me with a sword...
Beth
|
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/7/2005 10:57 AM | Well if you want Sword & Sorcery comics, I recommend Dagar The Invincible from Gold Key. Written by Don Glut, with nifty art by Jesse Santos. Well worth Tracking down. At the same Time that DC came out with Claw the Unconquered, they also published Stalker the Man with the Stolen Soul with art from Steve Ditko and Wally Wood, a caveman comic called Kong, and even gave Beowulf his own comic. None of them lasted long. There is of course Tales of Sword & Sorcery, the comic that adapted Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories, though those two worthies oddly enough made their first comics appearance in an issue of Wonder Woman.
The very first barbarian character who was actually called that was probably Al Williamson's Clawfang the Barbarian who appeared in a couple of Harvey Anthology comics several years before Conan hit the stands. Before that, there was Joe Kubert's Viking Prince. Kubert also had a caveman character called Tor. Lin Carter's Thongor briefly had his own comic, and John Jakes' Brak the Barbarian appeared in a few issues of Savage Tales. Marvel made various attempts at bringing Solomon Kane and Kull to the comics pages and of course the pseudo REH character Red Sonja has had several comics incarnations and is, in fact about to be brought back to comics again.
Atlas comics had Wulf the Barbarian and Iron Jaw, a savage swordsman with a bit of a twist, his jaw was actually made of iron. Both books had short runs.
Mike Grell's Warlord remains a favorite of mine and is, I believe, the longest running S&S title after Conan. Anyway, that's all the stuff I can think of off the top of my head.
Charles R |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/7/2005 11:17 AM | Charles, you're hired. If you can squeeze in some time for a retrospective and look back at the issues, when they came out, how long they lasted, that sort of thing, it's exactly what I was thinking of for the swordandsorcery site. Nothing terribly long--a few thousand words tops.
'Course I'm also awaiting that sword and planet matter we were discussing... |
| Posted By : John Hocking - 1/7/2005 11:21 AM | Eegad.
The sick part isn't that I recognize Every Single One of those Sword & Sorcery comic heroes.
The sick part is that I Still Have almost all of them. Exceptions include the Viking Prince and Clawfang.
But if you're looking for a full run of 'Ironjaw', you've come to the right guy.
They're in this box right over...uh...here...um...somewhere... |
| Posted By : Petor - 1/7/2005 11:25 AM | I dressed up as a barbarian/Viking for Halloween. Does that count for anything?!!!
Er...nevermind.[:D]
HIGH FANTASY ONLINE (www.highfantasy.iwarp.com) |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/7/2005 11:31 AM | Speaking of Donald F. Glut, I had some of his Tragg and the Sky Gods gold key comics. Those were pretty cool. I pulled some out of a used bin, all beat to heck, when I was a teenager, and I ended up liking them so much I went back a few months later (the bin was in a different city) and managed to find a few more. I always wanted to find out how that whole thing turned out. Tragg was a cave man, but the whole thing had a sword and planet feel.
Howard |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/7/2005 11:57 AM | Petor sez: I dressed up as a barbarian/Viking for Halloween. Does that count for anything?!!!
Sure--it would really be impressive if that Viking pic of you from your site was your driver's license, though!
Howard |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/7/2005 12:49 PM | Howard, let me see if I can lay my hands on my copies of those comics. Like John, I have them, but I don't necessarily know where all of them are. However I can probably get the dates and such together so I should be able to write something.
Don Glut belongs to one of the Yahoo groups I belong to. I'll mention the S&S site and maybe he'll swing by. He's a nice guy and enjoys discussing, Dagar, Tragg, Dr. Spektor and the gang.
Charles R |
| Posted By : Raph - 1/7/2005 10:30 PM | Don't know if you would count it in with the sword and sorcery comics, but Marvel's version of Thor used to be one of my favorites, and with the Norse mythos as the basis had quite a few stories that were more along the S&S lines than most superhero comics.
Mike O. |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/8/2005 4:57 AM |
"...But the dark-maned giant's origins matter little to the feminine eyes that coat his sun-bronzed form with sighful gazes...
Like, gag me with a sword...
Beth
"sighful gazes"
Really, you should try to work that into your own prose. That and "sun-bronzed form." That'd be a great description of Riordan.
Best,
Howard |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/8/2005 4:59 AM | quote:
Originally posted by CharlesR
Howard, let me see if I can lay my hands on my copies of those comics. Like John, I have them, but I don't necessarily know where all of them are. However I can probably get the dates and such together so I should be able to write something.
Don Glut belongs to one of the Yahoo groups I belong to. I'll mention the S&S site and maybe he'll swing by. He's a nice guy and enjoys discussing, Dagar, Tragg, Dr. Spektor and the gang.
Charles R
Charles, that would be great and I know it would make intersting reading. Maybe you and Hocking could join forces on it. Hocking authored Conan and the Emerald Lotus, and I've mentioned your work to him--I know you guys would get on well.
best,
Howard |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/8/2005 5:08 AM | quote:
Originally posted by Raph
Don't know if you would count it in with the sword and sorcery comics, but Marvel's version of Thor used to be one of my favorites, and with the Norse mythos as the basis had quite a few stories that were more along the S&S lines than most superhero comics.
Mike O.
I love the Simonson run of Thor and am thrilled to see they're being reprinted in graphic novel form. It may not be sword and sorcery in the strictest sense, but it certainly falls in the category of "related genres." A friend of mine and I have been wondering whether or not the graphic novel collections will pick up the related mini-series by Simonson about Baldur.
Outside that window on Thor I don't know too much about the character's history with Marvel.
For those of you not in the know, Simonson came along in the mid 80s and almost re-invented Thor. Under his hands the comic shot from one of the worst selling Marvels to one of the top titles, for a while selling even better than X-Men. He infused the series with a real sense of Norse mythology and had a nice grasp of character, a saga with sweeping plotlines, complicated character motivations, and entertaining villains. In addition to scripting the series, he drew most of his issues as well--a really distinctive, action-heavy style. They're about as good as a monthly comic about a Thunder God can hope to be.
best,
Howard |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/8/2005 5:10 AM | quote:
Originally posted by CharlesR
Don Glut belongs to one of the Yahoo groups I belong to. I'll mention the S&S site and maybe he'll swing by. He's a nice guy and enjoys discussing, Dagar, Tragg, Dr. Spektor and the gang.
Charles R
That would be wonderful. I'd love to hear from him. Thanks!
Howard |
| Posted By : BethS - 1/8/2005 8:13 AM | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
That and "sun-bronzed form." That'd be a great description of Riordan.
Snort.
Beth |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/8/2005 12:19 PM | Howard, I'm a little over 1500 words into the article. I'd have more but I keep stopping to read the comics. I'd welcome any input from John.
And speaking of Mr. Hocking, I have read his Conan novel and I consider it to be one of the two out of all the many pastiches that approaches the true spirit of Robert E. Howard's Conan. The other is Karl Edward Wagner's Road of Kings. Nicely done, John.
Charles R |
| Posted By : John Hocking - 1/8/2005 12:58 PM | Charles, I'd love to help you but I don't know how I can. Most of my old comics (with the natural exception of my complete run of 'Conan') are in storage. My memory is at your disposal though, and if you want to make this a long term project I'll see about digging all those ancient comics out of my archives.
It sure would be cool to have a permanent, archive-style essay about Sword & Sorcery comics for the site.
And maybe even a little hall of fame, where individual characters could have an image, together with more detailed info about artists, writers, influence, number of issues, etc.
Hey Howard, the site is growing out of control! In our minds, at least.
And thanks for the very kind words about LOTUS, Charles. |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/8/2005 1:03 PM | John, I'll go ahead and finish the short version then and we can perhaps consider a more coprehensive article for the future, or even a series of articles. I think Warlord deserves a full retrospective and Dagar as well. Sound workable to you, Howard?
Charles R |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/8/2005 2:50 PM | Sounds great, guys. Keep up the good work!
Swords together!
best,
Howard |
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 1/9/2005 1:47 PM | Let me add my voice to those who would buy Flashing Swords off the stands. I enjoyed every tale, particularly The Guardian of the Dawn by William King. Futhermore, the background colour complemented the text and made reading quite easy on the eyes.
Howard, I enjoyed your editorial. The subject matter actually set me digging through my library. I was lucky enough to be of an age when Conan was re-introduced to the world through the Lancer books. Granted, it was the Frazetta cover that caught my 12 year-old eye, but that just served as a portal into the world of heroic fantasy.
Along with Conan, I still have my copies of Almuric, Wolfshead, The Dark Man & Others, The 2nd Book of REH, and a lot more. Then there's the Ballantine reissues of ERB's works, Gulliver of Mars by Edwin Arnold, Kane, Thonger, Jonger etc, etc.
But what really jogged the brain cells was the title you chose for the e-zine. I knew it rang a bell. When I read the editorial it came home. I have the Dell copies of Flashing Swords #1 & #4, books I'd completely forgot about. In fact I'm looking at #1 right now. It has a great Frazetta cover. Thanks for the memory jog...
B.Durham
www.conan.com |
| Posted By : Petor - 1/10/2005 6:49 AM | I have the complete set of the FLASHING SWORDS series. Lin Carter edited all of them...and the editorials are just as valuable as the tales within.
Some of the tales within, like the Moorcock and Leiber material, ended up in their own respective books even though supposedly in the FLASHING SWORDS series they were "the first time in print".
There's a BRAK THE BARBARIAN tale written by its creator, John Jakes, in one of the books. Heck, I didn't even know Jakes wrote barbarian tales...now I am eagerly searching for his BRAK books.
It was a GREAT series with a GREAT editor.
HIGH FANTASY ONLINE (www.highfantasy.iwarp.com) |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/10/2005 7:41 AM | <<There's a BRAK THE BARBARIAN tale written by its creator, John Jakes, in one of the books. Heck, I didn't even know Jakes wrote barbarian tales...now I am eagerly searching for his BRAK books.>>
don't be TOO eager. I was myself. Once I tracked them down I discovered they wear thin quickly. MAYBE They get better, but despite having the entire run now I never finished them. A few of them are nifty, but the writing's not that outstanding and the plot elements start to repeat--as with how Brak stops a monster.
If you want the rundown on Brak, check out this site, by Dale Rippke. Great site, although he's far more fond of Brak than I am.
http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/heroesof.htm
<<It was a GREAT series with a GREAT editor.>>
Yes, it certainly was. Lin Carter had an honest love for sword and sorcery. And I love his editorials. Once you've read a few, when you come across a few one its like finding a letter from an old friend.
Must go earn some money,
Howard
|
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 1/10/2005 7:52 AM | I have one Brak novel, Brak the Barbarian Versus the Sorceress. Trust me, it's nothing special. Another novel by him is Mention my Name in Atlantis. The latter was a parody. The byline read "Conax the Chimerical helps to sink Atlantis. Turning up at a slave auction with his broadsword and barbaric manners it's only a matter of time and plot twists before another great civilization is reduced to wrack and ruin." The description where Conax prepares for battle, every muscle quivering uncontrollably, is quite hilarious. Beyond that, it has little else to offer. Jakes did better with his historical stuff.
There were 5 FS books, correct? |
| Posted By : Petor - 1/10/2005 9:04 AM | Correct. There were 5 books in the FLASHING SWORDS series. I have number 5 in hardcover. Researching the other books, though not 100% on this, it looks like #1, #4 and #5 were printed both PB (paperback)and HC (hardcover).
Good thing I didn't pay a lot for or buy all the BRAK books. Sounds like they might be stinkers.
HIGH FANTASY ONLINE (www.highfantasy.iwarp.com) |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/10/2005 12:31 PM | I generally enjoyed the Brak short stories more than the novels. Pick up The Fortunes of Brak. Nice collection. I interviewed Jakes several years ago and he was quite the gentleman and not at all ashamed of his days as a fantasy writer.
Charles R |
| Posted By : John Hocking - 1/10/2005 12:50 PM | Charles wrote: "I generally enjoyed the Brak short stories more than the novels. Pick up The Fortunes of Brak. Nice collection."
Ditto. There's a couple nifty short stories in that collection, notably 'Ghoul's Garden', which has some fine twists. The novel-length Braks are kinda tiring unless you're gung-ho for barbarian fantasy.
Charles: "I interviewed Jakes several years ago and he was quite the gentleman and not at all ashamed of his days as a fantasy writer."
That's great, and only fitting as the guy wrote a small avalanche of pulp fiction in every genre from space opera to detective farce. Ever read MASTER OF DARK GATE or WITCH OF THE DARK GATE? Lurid, ripping Sword and Planet from Lancer in the 1970's. Fine Steranko cover on the former, and an even nicer Frazetta on the latter.
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| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/10/2005 3:05 PM | Oh yeah, 'Ghoul's Garden' is a great one. I haven't read either of the Witch's Gate books, though I've seen them. Did read Mention My name in Atlantis recently. That's a weird, weird book.
I'm currently reading Gene Wolfe's 'The Knight' which is turning out to be one of the best fantasy novels I've read in a decade. Not Sword & Sorcery. More in the Dunsany vein, but amazingly well written.
Oh and today in the mail I recieved two REH collections, Marchers of Valhalla, and Swords of Shahrazar. A good day at the mail box...
Charles R |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/10/2005 3:12 PM | Petor, I have all five Flashing Swords hardbacks. There really is a ton of neat stuff in there. If you don't have Carter's Year's Best Fantasy volumes, get them as well. Stories by everyone from Karl Edward Wagner to George R.R. Martin. Well worth tracking down.
Charles R |
| Posted By : Rob Santa - 1/10/2005 6:36 PM | Sorry, guys, I know this isn't the right place to post this message, but I figured it was the place where those of you with the REH collections would want to see it. Amazon has Conan statuettes for about $8. Search "Conan" in the Toys and Games section. I just stumbled across it now and thought you might be interested.
Rob
|
| Posted By : Petor - 1/11/2005 12:58 AM | CharlesR...thanks for the info. How many of THAT series were there?
Rob Santa...for the Fant fans who like to adorn their reading room with related collectibles, yes, that's good info. McFarlane toys put out some very cool and very detailed CONAN figures also. You can buy them at TOYS-R-US for about 10 bucks.
HIGH FANTASY ONLINE (www.highfantasy.iwarp.com) |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/11/2005 5:34 AM | Charles wrote: "I generally enjoyed the Brak short stories more than the novels. Pick up The Fortunes of Brak. Nice collection."
John H wrote: "Ditto. There's a couple nifty short stories in that collection, notably 'Ghoul's Garden', which has some fine twists. The novel-length Braks are kinda tiring unless you're gung-ho for barbarian fantasy."
I think you two are probably right--I have that book, which seems to collect those Brak stories from Flashing Swords and other anthologies, and some of them were pretty enjoyable. I recall Jakes saying that he wasn't trying to do anything original, just try to write some more stories of a kind he liked to read, and that he hoped they were entertaining.
That sounds laudable to me. And I think, in some of the short stories in that collection, he succeeded.
best,
Howard |
| Posted By : dklatta - 1/14/2005 8:55 AM | As author of "The High Tower", which was alluded to near the beginning of this forum, I'll admit that I was aware of the Claw character from the comics. But I think I was more thinking of Michael Moorcock's Corum (from the first trilogy) when I conceived of Zargatha. Actually, though I can't think of who off hand, I'm guessing the notion of the hero with the demonic...something must be fairly tried and true, because Moorcock himself spoofed the idea in a story called, uh (runs breathlessly to his musty bookshelf), "The Stone Thing". Though maybe he was just spoofing the sort of stories he alone was, at the point, identified with.
Speaking of comic book S&S (and I should just flip back through the past messages to see) did anyone mention Roy Thomas' Arak from the early 1980s? |
| Posted By : Jonah Lissner - 1/17/2005 9:40 AM | | Flashing Swords looks pretty solid and hearkens back to the age of pulp adventure and vintage writing, original plot lines. I thought McCullough's articles on Howard's philosophies were quite well written. |
| Posted By : Dave - 1/17/2005 12:36 PM | Arak, Son of Thunder. A Native American S&S hero.
I have a few issues of his packed away somewhere.....
Dave
SFReader Webmaster |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/20/2005 9:13 AM | That's it! Somebody, quick, send me a good Native American S and S piece for Razor-edged Arcanum [:)]. Get it in and under 4k and I'll pay eight cents a word!
Only eleven days left to the deadline.
Daniel |
| Posted By : Edward Knight - 1/20/2005 10:38 AM | I've got one in the works. If I'm close in regard to the deadline will you accept email?
I've had this story on the back burner for a couple of years now and never finished it. It's based around a local Chickasaw legend involving a demon, human sacrifices, a lake of fire and a circuit riding Methodist minister.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com |
| Posted By : Kuroboshii - 1/20/2005 10:41 AM | Well...that would require a multiple submission from me. Would this be an exception to your rule?
Still, I doubt I can write one, especially not in eleven days. I'll just place my bets on the first one I sent you.
Sean T. M. Stiennon (AKA Suuran Songforge)
For information about me, see my author page at www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon. |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/20/2005 6:41 PM | Ed,
Contact me if you're running too close to the deadline ;-)
Otherwise just send it snail. It's apt to get read faster that way.
Sean, don't go trying to beat the deadline; concentrate on mss. you're already working on. You've been making very good progress lately.
REA cover art, the preliminary sketch by Loren Malloy, looks incredible!! I think REA is going to be every bit as good as the LOS anthology.
Won't be any more "wardrobe malfunctions," tho just in case anyone was wondering! LOL.
Daniel |
| Posted By : Edward Knight - 1/21/2005 2:39 AM | I made pretty good progress on the story last night. If I hunker down I'll be able to make the snail mail submission early next week.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com |
| Posted By : Flint - 1/25/2005 2:47 AM | I'm new to the forum and have just discovered the zine. I've been looking for something like this for a while and am very impressed, especially with the Harold Lamb story. I've been a fan of the likes of Howard and Lovecraft for a long time but many names are fairly new to me(I'm a British reader) so it's a pleasure to be introduced to an old author with work to be read. I'd be interested in anyone's comments on the following titles as I am deciding what to buy. Please do let my liking for REH influence your response:
The Grand Cham
Durandal
Ghengis Khan
The Sea of Ravens
Thanks
Flint |
| Posted By : Dave - 1/25/2005 3:28 AM | Hi Flint
Welcome to SFReader. Glad you're here!
Dave
SFReader Webmaster |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/25/2005 6:32 AM | Hi Flint,
You certainly came to the right place. I run the Harold Lamb web site, over at
www.haroldlamb.net
The Grand Cham is a real page turner and I selected it myself as the first novel that Wildside would reprint in its Lamb reprint series. All of Lamb's historicals have some of the same feel as REH's historicals.
Genghis Khan is a biography, not a work of fiction. It's remained in print for more than 70 years, which should definitely say something about its worth, but still, it's non-fiction. If you want to read about Genghis Khan and the Mongols, a better book--probably Lamb's best--is March of the Barbarians. Lamb's son, me, and the copyright holder all believe "March" is his best non-fiction book.
Durandal and the Sea of Ravens are great. They are part 1 and part 2 of a trilogy originally published in Adventure magazine back in the 1920s. Donald M. Grant, the publisher who brought these back out, has never gotten around to reprinting the third book in the trilogy, Rusudan.
If you have access to an interlibrary loan service (I don't know what they call it in England) that allows you to request a book from another library, you can request a copy of Durandal from the 1930s. That edition of the book collected all three novellas as one story, with additional linking material.
Hope that helps--if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. I am a big champion of Lamb's work. He's an undeservedly forgotten master.
best,
Howard Andrew Jones |
| Posted By : dklatta - 1/25/2005 6:51 AM | | Watch out for that period after 'net' at the end of www.haroldlamb.net. -- it can confuse your browser and mean it can't find the site (at least, it confused my browser)! The URL is just www.haroldlamb.net -- period. |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/25/2005 7:03 AM | Hey, I have a friend named Flint in thre UK. You aren't the Flint from Forward Motion by any chance?
Charles R |
| Posted By : Flint - 1/25/2005 7:46 AM | Thanks for all the info Jonesha, it's exactly what I was looking for. I've only read the Lamb story in Flashing Swords and so I'm grateful for the advice on his other work. I'll definately invest some time and money in his books!
Charles R; sorry mate- I'm not him; it's good to meet you though! |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/25/2005 8:22 AM | You as well, Flint. And you are indeed in the right place. Howard is the Lamb man.
Charles R |
| Posted By : Flint - 1/25/2005 8:56 AM | | Here's another question for anyone who's interested in responding. I live in the UK and am unaware of any quality print magazines along the lines of "Flashing Swords" or similar styles; any ideas? |
| Posted By : jonesha - 1/25/2005 9:46 AM | Hi Flint,
Howard again. That's part of the reason Flashing Swords exists, and probably one of the main reasons I get such high quality submissions. There's a derth of markets for the genre. Black Gate publishes some, and so does Paradox, a historical fiction magazine. But so far as I know, there aren't any other places solely dedicated to it. Sword and sorcery has almost been comatose for a while.
I CAN point you with pride to a recent anthology titled Lords of Swords, accessible through the swordandsorcery.org site -- it's easy to find. I think the Lords of Swords ad runs on every page. The plan is to have a continuing cycle of sword and sorcery anthologies published through the same publisher, though that will require readers. Hope you'll take a look--purchasing Lords of Swords will help fund Flashing Swords and other nifty projects from Pitch-Black.
best,
Howard |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/25/2005 10:11 AM | Hi Flint,
Yep, that's why we started the two anthologies and -- as Howard says -- the funds from the print anthos are what allows Sword and Sorcery and Flashing Swords to run smoothly, or, exist at all!
So if you (or anyone else) wants to help out the cause, click over to www.pitchblackbooks.com or the S and S site to order LOS. It's pretty much like securing a year-long subscription to Sword and Sorcery and Flashing Swords, while purchasing an awesome and finely printed and illustrated collection of heroic fantasy stories by some of the best authors around.
It's also an investment in the future of Sword and Sorcery itself, especially when you factor in all the great stories and writers who might have *nowhere* to place their excellent tales without the support of each and every one of our readers.
Daniel |
| Posted By : Flint - 1/25/2005 10:19 AM | Ok gentlemen, I'll see about ordering a copy of the anthology. With a bit of luck it should prove to be a good investment. I'll get on the right away and see what the payment options are. To be honest, it's a bit of a bugger having an interest in something with such a strong American base but it's worth the effort. Thanks for the replies.
Flint |
| Posted By : Flint - 1/25/2005 10:42 AM | All done! I've just spent £16.00 as instructed: how obedient am I. Seriously, it's a pleasure to be able to support a venture so close to my heart--I just wish the freight didn't put such a strain on it.
Flint |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/25/2005 7:37 PM | Me, too, Flint! We've had a lot of British and Canadian orders.
Thanks for your support!!
Daniel |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/26/2005 5:43 PM | Well I picked up my copy of Flashing Swords tonight at my local comics store. You're on the stands! (Actually you're not. FS sold out the day it came in.) Pretty keen. can't wait to read the stories!
Charles R |
| Posted By : CharlesR - 1/26/2005 5:44 PM | And of course I meant Lords of Swords. My mind is going...
Charles R |
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 1/28/2005 2:36 PM | quote:
Originally posted by Daniel
Me, too, Flint! We've had a lot of British and Canadian orders.
Thanks for your support!!
Daniel
My copy of LoS came last week, and I can only add to the praise. This book is an excellent showcase of S&S talent. I look forward to the next. While I'm at it, is there any chance of placing LoS on Canadian bookshelves?
BDurham
Admin: www.conan.com |
| Posted By : Kuroboshii - 1/28/2005 4:06 PM | Ooh...is LoS on store shelves? That would be great.
Sean T. M. Stiennon (AKA Suuran Songforge)
For information about me, see my author page at www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon. |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/28/2005 5:27 PM | Sean,
We're preparing to sign with a reputable and capable distributor for LOS next week. The good news is, we've found and were chosen by a reliable distributor; the bad news is, it may be several months before LOS actually makes it to stores in the US -- and hopefully, Canada, too.
Right now, the best thing for everyone to do who wants LOS is to order it from us, either through the new online store
http://pitchblackbooks.netfirms.com/Cynosure/nfoscomm/catalog/index.php
or through Sword and Sorcery/Flashing Swords.
Additionally, the next printing of LOS will feature additional type/font and editor/author credits on the cover, so those of you who want a "collector's 1st edition" copy of LOS with only the cover art and title on the cover, should order asap, before the first print run sells out ;-)
Daniel |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/28/2005 5:29 PM | Thanks, Charles and B. Durham for your kind compliments. We've worked very hard to put the antho together and the pay-off is hearing you (and others) say what you just said ;-)
We deeply appreciate your support.
Daniel |
| Posted By : Flint - 1/30/2005 5:18 AM | I'm new to the forum and flashing swords but I'd like to submit something for the anthologies being released. I've read the brief for Razor-Edged Arcanum(which I've obviously missed) and understand that each anthology will have a certain leaning--does anybody have any idea what features the next one wil be looking for? I realise it's probably still early days but I thought it was worth asking.
Flint |
| Posted By : Daniel - 1/30/2005 7:04 AM | I've read the brief for Razor-Edged Arcanum(which I've obviously missed) and understand that each anthology will have a certain leaning--does anybody have any idea what features the next one wil be looking for? I realise it's probably still early days but I thought it was worth asking.
***
Hey Flint, the next (after REA) open-submissions heroic fantasy antho from Pitch-Black is liable to be a ways down the road, due to the distribution issues for LOS and REA that we are dealing with. In essence, the original date for release of REA (Spring 2005) will now be replaced by a distribution/release date for LOS and the REA publication date, as consequence, shoved back a few months.
We're not overjoyed with this delay, but it does mean that the anthologies will be given a wider audience and will be available in retail outlets, assuming all holds as it appears to be holding now ;-)
Daniel |
| Posted By : Jonah Lissner - 1/30/2005 9:40 AM | Conan.com is rad and a half! Awesome site..
---------------------------
A new fiction writer published in over 20 periodicals and anthologies. I write in the heroic genre. Jonah Lissner, Editor ADVENTURE FICTION ONLINE http://adventurefictiononline.com |
| Posted By : Flint - 1/30/2005 9:46 AM | Thanks for the info Daniel!
Flint |
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 1/31/2005 2:23 PM | quote:
Originally posted by Jonah Lissner
Conan.com is rad and a half! Awesome site..
---------------------------
A new fiction writer published in over 20 periodicals and anthologies. I write in the heroic genre. Jonah Lissner, Editor ADVENTURE FICTION ONLINE http://adventurefictiononline.com
Er, if that's aimed at me, then thanks a bunch. Join the community forums, you may meet a couple of familiar faces. :)
BDurham
Admin: www.conan.com |
| Posted By : Jonah Lissner - 1/31/2005 5:11 PM | Excellent.....[^][:D][8D] by Crom...
---------------------------
A new fiction writer published in over 20 periodicals and anthologies. I write in the heroic genre. Jonah Lissner, Editor ADVENTURE FICTION ONLINE http://adventurefictiononline.com |
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 2/2/2005 3:13 PM | quote:
Originally posted by Jonah Lissner
Excellent.....[^][:D][8D] by Crom...
---------------------------
A new fiction writer published in over 20 periodicals and anthologies. I write in the heroic genre. Jonah Lissner, Editor ADVENTURE FICTION ONLINE http://adventurefictiononline.com
For what it's worth, I have added links from the www.conan.com community forum to the SFReader forums. Hopefully it will generate some more traffic and additional reads and sales. No promises, though... [;)] |
| Posted By : Dave - 2/3/2005 5:12 AM | Thanks bdurham.
An increase of sales to 1 would be nice....
Dave
SFReader Webmaster |
| Posted By : Flint - 2/3/2005 7:47 AM | Well, I ordered my copy of "Lord of Swords" on the 25th of January and it's just arrived in today(I live in the UK: 3rd February. I paid for the best delivery option but it's still pretty good in my opinion. I'd like to thank the person who packed the book for doing such a good job--despite all the punishment the poor thing has probably had, it's relatively undamaged apart from some minor bending.
I read all the comments people had made about the style of presentation and binding quality and thought it was just--Blah! Now I have my own copy I can see what they mean; I'm impressed. Another very nice touch was David Pitchford's signiature on the invoice--I think it's been done by hand...oh yse, it smudges.
Well, all in all I'm a satisfied customer and I haven't even read a story yet.
Nice one!
Flint |
| Posted By : Daniel - 2/3/2005 3:07 PM | *Thank you*, Flint. Now if we could just get a UK distributor ;-)
Daniel |
| Posted By : Flint - 2/6/2005 11:44 PM | Just out of curiosity--when's the next issue of Flashing Swords timetabled for?
Flint |
| Posted By : jonesha - 2/7/2005 6:45 AM | Hi Flint--issue 2 will be ready on April 1. It's a quarterly e-zine. Had I time and finances I could easily set it up to come out every other month, such is the strenght of the work I've been seeing.
I'm having to turn some good pieces away because they're on the longish side. Anything long has to be firing on all pistons.
Best,
Howard |
| Posted By : Flint - 2/9/2005 10:58 AM | Ah well, maybe you'll be in the position to go monthly one day...or even print--that would be very nice to see. I'm a fan of Cyber Age Adventures or iHero www.ihero.net/ as it's known, they're putting their first print version out this year. I think it's taken a long time for them to get there but I'm sure it'll be worth it.
Flint |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 5/19/2005 7:42 AM | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
The debut issue of Flashing Swords ezine is live and waiting for you
Well, I'm new here, so I only just finished reading the first issue of Flashing Swords.
Here are my thoughts.
Wonderful introduction, Howard!
Guardian of the Dawn by William King
Very strong story! Kormack is an interesting hero. A man trying to remain noble in a world going to corruption. The setting is appropriately dark and gloomy. Humans as monstrous as the monsters is always a nice touch. The last two sentences make a killer of an ending. This is good stuff!
The Whore's Fool by Joseph A. McCullough V
This was a rousing tale. A wench, a hero and a sorcerer - what more could you want? I do have one technical comment - how large is the musket that Stevan carries? Muskets are rather long weapons. They would be unwieldy in a crowded tavern or city street. I would think the muskets would be left on the ship, and the men would carry pistols. If this is too stereotypical pirate, then how about short, sawed off muskets that look like blunderbusses without the flared barrel? If so, a sentence or two of description would help suspend my disbelief a little further.
The Golden Empress by Harold Lamb
OKay, you're gonna crucify me. I did not enjoy this story. The elements were all there - empress, gladiator and Vikings, but the writing was bad. I could go on at length, and I will - but I will do it as a separate reply to this post.
The Burning River by S.C. Bryce
Generally, I liked this story. We have an interesting elfin hero, a magic sword, a burning river and a very nasty beastie. I also like the conclusion and the villagers' gift to Dermanassian. I think, though, the story could have been a little stronger if we were told a little nugget of Dermanassian's motivation or backstory. I know when you have mysterious hero over a body of stories, you don't want to play too much of your hand. But, Dermanassian is a Desert Elf who goes around helping people. And in this story, he helps people - but why? We don't need the whole backstory - just a hint. Was he oppressed, a slave, was his village attacked when he was a boy? Is he a knight or a priest under oath to fight evil and protect the innocent? Is he an elfin Don Quioxte who just got lucky and found real monsters to fight? I just feel that a touch of motivation/backstory reveal would have helped this story stand out a little bit more.
The High Tower by D. K. Latta
More Zargatha, please! Need to learn more about that hand. And the story was action from beginning to end. Good stuff!
Any criticism is (meant to be) offered in a non-offending, constructive manner. I'm in the same seat you all (the writers) are! Just hoping we can all help each other hone our various skills (writing, reading and editing)
Cheers!
-- Paul McNamee |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 5/19/2005 7:46 AM | The Golden Empress by Harold Lamb
OKay, you're gonna crucify me. I did not enjoy this story. The elements were all there - empress, gladiator and Vikings, but the writing was bad.
Violation #1 - shifting point-of-view within the same scene
My biggest pet peeve about story-writing, hands down.
While this is not a grammatical rule, it is a strongly suggested method of story-writing, dating back to Hawthorne (if I recall my American Literature history correctly). Short stories should be told from a single point-of-view. In the modern day, this has evolved to be "single point-of-view per scene" - regardless of story length. Here, in the gladiator fight alone, we go from the Emperess' mind to Harald's mind to Ulf's mind. In the opening, substitute the English translator for Ulf, and you get the same rollercoaster feeling.
This doesn't allow us time to get to know a character. We spend one paragraph getting to know them and then we are jerked into the viewpoint of another character. It makes for choppy reading.
Mind you, this would not stop you from getting published. I notice that the first novels in new series by new writers often do this. I can name you three examples off the top of my head; Star Trek: The Next Generation - Ghost Ship, Red Sonja - Ring of Ikribu and Cormac Mac Art - Mists of Doom. Unfortunately, the only thing I recall about these books is being annoyed by the shifting p-o-v! (Remember, you can learn what not to do as well as what to do from other books)
It won't stop you from being published, but to me, it just smacks of beginner/amateur writing.
Violation #2 - Show, don't tell!
This comes from my screenwriting training. Show us, don't tell us! I believe this translates very well into the prose of action-adventure stories.
Lamb gives us a gladiator fight, but later he totally skips over the rescuing of the maiden.
The second message, a half-hour later, startled all the Sacred Palace. The Norsemen, Harald and seven others including a strange woman, had been brought into the courtyard of the palace of Maria the Porphyrogenita, by five guards. At least, everyone had taken the five for guards--until Harald made his way up the stairs and found Maria lying on her bed. He wrapped her up in a coverlet and carried her down, and went forth in the center of his men, who had got new arms from the house. They vanished into the network of dark alleys leading to the waterfront.
Wouldn’t have been for more exciting to have described the rescue from the Vikings point of view? Or Maria’s? If you were filming this, imagine what you would see. The Palace. A messenger who says the Vikings grabbed Maria. An exposition of action off-screen.
I’ll grant you two valid reasons not to have shown the rescue. 1.) wanted to keep word count low 2.) repetitive action (e.g.; if he kept repeating gladiator fights over and over .. then you could skip the details of the later fights) But the rescue from the palace was a totally different piece of action from the gladiator fight.
Another published example of this folly is the original Planet of the Apes novel.
Cornelius makes a plan to get the hero onto the next launching spaceship. The next chapter starts, Cornelius plan was flawless and already took place and the hero is launched into orbit.
Okay, technically not to big an issue, but he could have given us a half-chapter full of suspense describing how they got the hero onboard. Plenty of opportunities to worry us into believing the plan will go wrong too. And, with a novel, he really didn’t need to worry about word count. It’s a short book anyway.
Show us, don’t tell us!
Again, all criticism meant to be constructive for the writers here. I'm not trying to tear down Lamb - I'm just pointing out writers' pitfalls that should be avoided.
Cheers,
-- Paul McNamee |
| Posted By : Supr - 5/19/2005 8:17 AM | | I liked The Golden Empress! The viking hero is arrogant and self-confidenced like a real S&S hero should be. The queen is a very exciting person.[:)] |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 5/19/2005 8:52 AM | PaulMc: Interesting commentaries on Issue No. 1. I look forward to your thoughts on Issue 2 and future issues of "Flashing Swords."
I agree with you on shifting points of view within a scene. I find it somewhat jarring to even shift points of view within a story; I think its best to filter everything from one character's perspective, so as to build suspence. When the writer jumps from one character's head to another, it's easier for the author to get all points across -- but it's more effective, I think, if you stick to one character's view and let the reader figure out what's going on along with that character. Harder work for the author, and the motivations of some other characters may remain open to interpretation. But in real life, we seldom know what's going on in the minds of others, anyway.
All that said, I still loved the Harold Lamb story. It had enough vigor and fun to make me forgive those POV infractions. Few authors hit bingo on every single point with every story; we all have our shortcomings. But sometimes -- and the Lamb piece is one of those -- the good stuff renders the bad insignificant, at least for me.
Anyway, though, it's nice to have you on board here. Your insights are valuable and well-taken.
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : jonesha - 5/19/2005 9:15 AM | Hey Paul,
Really insightful comments, intelligent and well thought-out. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Naturally I have to take some issue with the Harold Lamb comments. You must realize that not having shifting POV is a new fad. Any and all writers used to be able to shift POV whenever the heck they wanted. Take a good look at REH and any of the first crop of sword and sorcery writers. They leap from character head to character head within the same scene--it allows enormous freedom. Personally I'd prefer to have that much freedom, but somewhere in some crit group some place it was decided that shifting POV was no longer in vogue and it's rare to find in more modern works. I've had every single story I've tried that in rejected, and crit groups mark it up with red pen when I run it through workshops. Bill King and John Hocking and I were talking about this the other day, and I exchanged a few e-mails with C.J. Burch about it as well. I hope they'll drop by and say a few words about it. Be an interesting thing to get a conversation going about.
As to avoidance of the rescue scene, I disagree there with you as well. Seems to me that would have stretched the piece out and slowed down the pace.
But I do thank you for posting. I hope you don't mind me speaking for Harold, since he's been dead since 1962 and I'm pretty much his shield bearer at this point.
I do hope you'll continue to share thoughts on any and all related matters!
best wishes,
Howard |
| Posted By : jonesha - 5/19/2005 9:23 AM | Hey Paul,
Forgot to mention, so busily was I defending Lamb, that I appreciated the compliment on the opening essay.
And you want more Zargatha? Feast your eyes on issue 2!
best,
Howard
|
| Posted By : PaulMc - 5/19/2005 9:38 AM | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
Really insightful comments, intelligent and well thought-out. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Sure. I'll get to the second issue after vacation [:)] I'll be gone 'til next week after today.
quote:
Naturally I have to take some issue with the Harold Lamb comments. You must realize that not having shifting POV is a new fad. Any and all writers used to be able to shift POV whenever the heck they wanted. Take a good look at REH and any of the first crop of sword and sorcery writers.
Yes, but was that necessarily a good thing? If REH did it, I don't recall it irking me so much. I'll need to doublecheck some of the old stories.
quote:
They leap from character head to character head within the same scene--it allows enormous freedom.
Does it really? It might help descriptions (such as Ulf seeing the gladiator fight from the outside), but as Steve G. (red viper) pointed out .. once we're inside everybody's heads, then we know all about them and their plans and deceptions.
I'm a kind of straightforward guy, and something I'm still training myself to do with screenplays is not to have my dialogue so on-the-nose. If everybody says exactly what they're thinking all the time, it's not real life. People say things, leave things out, lie, etc.
I prefer the p-o-v 'rule', modern or not (I think it's a bit older than modern, but maybe just en vogue now), because of what I said, it makes for smoother reading. And it helps to identify with one character at a time for the reader.
quote:
As to avoidance of the rescue scene, I disagree there with you as well. Seems to me that would have stretched the piece out and slowed down the pace.
Valid point.
quote:
I do hope you'll continue to share thoughts on any and all related matters!
I'll try. :)
And I'm sure I'll get my share of feedback, too, as time goes by [;)]
-- Paul McNamee |
| Posted By : Casca - 5/20/2005 10:55 AM | As far as shifting the POV goes, I don't see any problem with it as long as it fits the scene, and suits the story. It works better in longer fiction, there is no doubt about that, because in longer fiction you are able to concentrate on more than one character more easily. But it can be done with shorter fiction as well.
Of course you don't want to jump around too much or you'll confuse the reader up one side and down the other. But saying it can never be done is just inventing an artificial rule for an artficial rule's sake. (If it couldn't be done Tolkien, to over use an over used example, could never have split the company of the ring, since Frodo was his POV character, at least at the beginning. There are other ways of doing it as well. In Startide Rising David Brin uses a different POV at the beginning of almost every scene.)
Of course most editors don't agree with me. But if you're just writing for editors you probably should be writing something other than S@S. |
| Posted By : Casca - 5/20/2005 11:07 AM | | Sorry, mis-read the previous posts. I should have addressed shifting POVs in the middle of a scene. Again, if it fits the scene and the story it is perfectly feasible. There is no reason on earth that a writer should have to stop what he's doing and start fresh from another character's perspective in describing that self same scene. As long as the scene flows a shift of POV is fine. As a matter of fact, it is much easier to descrbe your protagonist when he or she first appears, from another's view point than from their own. If the workshop folks that claim otherwise were correct about this, and alot of other stuff, I suspect S@S would be a lot more popular today, and maybe a tad less homogenous. |
| Posted By : Casca - 5/20/2005 11:19 AM | | Okay, I'm going to babble just a little more, then I'll let this go. Stories are rarely just about one person. Events, in life, and in fiction, are rarely about just one person. There is no reason a writer should have to start every scene from scratch and retell it simply becuase there is more than one person in the scene. Assumng the reader is too stupid to realize that is a terrible sin, to me. Writers knew that for hundreds of years. There's no reason we should forget it now. |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 5/20/2005 11:50 AM | Casca: I'm not saying shifting POV should never be done. But I think it should be done less. Too often, the shift in POV is not seamless, not signaled by the writer, and the reader has to re-read a passage to catch up and make sure he knows what's going on and who's head it's going on in. An example is Patrick O'Brien's historical novels about the British Royal Navy. The man knows his stuff, and his characters are fully human and wonderful. But he shifts POV sometimes in mid-paragraph, and quite often without giving a thought to signalling the reader that he is doing so. He also shifts scenes very suddenly, without a hint of transition, and the effect is quite jarring. I love his books, and will keep reading them, although I know each one will be something of a chore. And I know that if he had been just a tad more thoughtful about POV, he could have written the same books in much the same manner -- and made it even more of a joy for the reader.
If you want to sustain suspense and mystery, it's often better, I think, to stick to one character's thoughts and let the reader wonder what the other characters are thinking and doing. Casca is correct in saying that events in life and fiction are seldom about just one person. But haven't we all gone through experiences wishing we knew what the heck was going on in the minds of the people we know? Wondering what their agendas are? Sure we have, and I think it heightens the reader's ability to identify with a character when the reader and character BOTH are are wondering what motivations lurk in the minds of others. It lets the reader interact with the story, instead of merely absorb it. It gives the reader the chance to smell a trap before the hero does, and smile in satisfaction upon being proven right -- or be utterly surprised upon realizing the writer has led him on a wild goose chase.
Of course, there are stories that demand shifting POV. I've written some myself. I guess I'm saying that it's not so much a sin to shift POV -- but if you're going to do it, have a good reason for doing so and do it well. Make sure you take the reader along for the ride with you when you go from one mind to the next!
But Casca is quite right in saying that having rules just for the sake of rules and following them slavishly is a bad idea. Writers must create, using whatever tools are best for the job at hand, whether it be shifting POV, first-person narrative, rhyming couplets or even the dread split infinitive.
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : Casca - 5/20/2005 3:49 PM | | Red Viper, I agree. If I seemed to be arguing that changing POV was something that should be done willy-nilly I mis-spoke. I use it fairly regularly, but even at that, I find it best to look at those places where I use it very carefully. If it doesn't fit, edit it out. If it does any damage to the story at all, edit it out. Funny, I find I've used it most when I'm writing about two people who know one another exceptionally well, and who I think of as protagonists rather than the protagonist and his side kick. It is my clumsy way of letting the readers know they are both important. |
| Posted By : Red Viper - 5/20/2005 4:49 PM | Hey, Casca, I doubt it's clumsy in that instance. A certain Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser come to mind ...
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble |
| Posted By : Daniel - 7/15/2005 12:33 PM | Let's see how you S and S writers apply your chops to our new heroic fiction contest :-)
Details here:
http://www.pitchblackbooks.com/contest.htm
Best,
Daniel
*link crossposted in the Pitch-Black forums*
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