The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=41&m=76860
| Posted By : Nik - 4/11/2008 1:06 PM | I loved the chapter with Gro and Mevrian (25?). Again, she's depicted as a woman who can more than handle herself, which I like, and I feel that Gro has finally "come around," as I always hoped he would. And the "triumphant return" at the end was great!
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : James Enge - 4/11/2008 2:25 PM | I do like the stretch with Gro and Mevrian. His explanation for his betrayal, and how it's really a kind of loyalty, makes him one of the most interesting characters in fantasy to me. In the 60s sometime, James Blish wrote a great sf story about a guild of traitors who were essential to interstellar civilization, and Gro was their patron saint. "A Style in Treason" was the title, if I'm remembering right.
But Gro is obviously doomed. If you keep sympathizing with the losing side, whichever one it is, eventually you're going to go down with the ship.
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Gordian Stone" in Every Day Fiction
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 4/11/2008 2:28 PM | Gro can't stand to be with a winner.
So, I take it you guys have read up to the ending?
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Nik - 4/11/2008 2:30 PM | Not quite at the end (should finish this weekend), but don't hold back for me.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 4/12/2008 1:21 PM | I went on a binge last night and this morning and finished! Great book. Has me eyeing some of the other classic fantasies now, particularly The King of Elfland's Daughter. Satisfying ending too.
Chapter XXVI I believe it was, The Battle for Krothering Side, was stone-cold magnificent.
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| Posted By : Nik - 4/13/2008 10:32 PM | Done!
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 4/14/2008 6:15 PM | | I'm really surprised at how frequently Eddison used a messenger or something similar as a mouthpiece to portray his battle scenes. Quite a few of the battles in Ouroboros were top-notch, and yet we, the reader, weren't actually "there" in pretty much all of them.
Nik, I've noticed from some of your posts that you tended to be most attracted to the chapters filled with intrigue and politics. While I liked these parts just fine, what made Ouroboros stand out for me was the style of the prose itself. Some of the descriptions were so lurid I actually found myself studying them. I remember Eddison describing a crown or somesuch and mentioning the strawberry leaves...and I remember thinking that's right, strawberries do have leaves, and there's no reason why people wouldn't have used them for ornamental reasons...
I probably recorded several pages of five-cent words, too, while I was reading through.
So can anybody name a favorite character in all of this? Lady Mevrian really became a standout there towards the end, though I did really like Corund and Coriinius too.
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| Posted By : Bill Ward - 4/15/2008 11:30 PM | Gro is my favorite, hands down. I'd love to be such a bastard.
What did you guys think of the 'redo' of the ending? Shades of valhalla.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 4/16/2008 8:47 AM | Do you mean the last chapter, where they are all sitting around moping because they have nobody to kill anymore?
I thought this helped drive home the whole symbol of the Worm: events without a beginning or ending, the more things change the more they stay the same, etc. The arrival of the messenger in the final sentences was a nice touch.
How does all this compare with Valhalla? I don't know much about it other than the basics.
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| Posted By : Bill Ward - 4/16/2008 3:59 PM | Well, they asked to have everything start over again, and presto changeo they were back at the beginning. In Valhalla all the warriors get to have fun slaughtering one another all day, then the slain rise up and go for steaks and mead with the living and they get to do it again the next day.
I'm guessing that's important to Eddison's philosophy as well, that excellence in conflict means more than the reason for or resolution of said conflict. I may be overstepping here, though.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Nik - 4/17/2008 12:11 PM | Definite shades of Valhalla. (Valhalla sounds exhausting, by the way.)
Ultimately, I think the scenes involving intrigue were my favorite, Nathan, though there were some passages of scene and setting description that I simply loved. And the final battle wasn't too shabby. Other passages, not so much. A bit long-winded, I'd say. I also didn't like the Jacobean English. I found it distracting and didn't think it necessary for creating an old world feel. But again, this is coming from the perspective of a modern reader.
Anyway, I'm glad I read it, because I can now appreciate what it contributed to the development of the genre. I doubt I would have gotten through it without you guys to keep me on track, so thank you.
Oh, and I think Lady Mevrian ended up being my favorite character, though it was fun hating Corund and Corinius, and Brandoch Daha was a very likable character, as well.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : James Enge - 4/17/2008 7:28 PM | There were two things about the ending I wasn't really crazy about. I didn't like it that Goldry just turned out to be a McGuffin or plot-coupon--it seems like they could have defeated Witchland handily without him. The other thing was the very end, when it looks like it's going to go on forever. Forever being such a very long time. I have to think that, in the ten thousandth or the twenty thousandth year, they'll start to suspect they made a poor choice. But maybe they get the option to renew or not at the end of every cycle...
In general, though, I really like the book. One of my favorite lines in literature occurs when Corund and Gro (now with the Demons) finally meet on the battle field. Corund pointedly does not kill him, but says, "Live, and be a traitor." CRUNCH!
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Gordian Stone" in Every Day Fiction
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 4/17/2008 7:42 PM |
James Enge said...
There were two things about the ending I wasn't really crazy about. I didn't like it that Goldry just turned out to be a McGuffin or plot-coupon--it seems like they could have defeated Witchland handily without him. The other thing was the very end, when it looks like it's going to go on forever. Forever being such a very long time. I have to think that, in the ten thousandth or the twenty thousandth year, they'll start to suspect they made a poor choice. But maybe they get the option to renew or not at the end of every cycle...
I'm with you regarding Goldry; makes one wonder why they went through so much trouble to get him back?
The very end, though, I liked, because this reflects the real world. Struggle is eternal. History repeats itself. Insert additional pithy sayings here.
Really though, it is as if we never learn.
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| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 4/17/2008 7:45 PM |
Nik said...Oh, and I think Lady Mevrian ended up being my favorite character, though it was fun hating Corund and Corinius, and Brandoch Daha was a very likable character, as well.
Mevrian! I knew it! You've been smitten! 
http://roguelikefiction.com |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 4/17/2008 7:54 PM | Nathan Jerpe said...
I'm with you regarding Goldry; makes one wonder why they went through so much trouble to get him back?
They thought the old finger up the nose trick might come in handy again. 
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Nik - 4/18/2008 2:17 PM | Nathan Jerpe said...Nik said...
Oh, and I think Lady Mevrian ended up being my favorite character, though it was fun hating Corund and Corinius, and Brandoch Daha was a very likable character, as well.
Mevrian! I knew it! You've been smitten! VIEW IMAGE
What can I say? The woman knows how to handle herself. I like that, and it especially stands out in fantasy literature written in the early 20th century.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
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