The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=41&m=60537
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 12/3/2007 9:16 AM | |
Hi folks!
Sounds as if we will be commencing a group-read of The Worm Ouroboros here shortly. If you feel passionately about some other book you'd like to dissect instead, speak up, otherwise we're going to get started with Eddison's 1922 masterpiece (or so they say, I haven't read it yet)!
If you want to take part with this one then there's nothing left to do; just jump in whenever you feel like it.
I've glimpsed at some of the chapters and don't see that any are significantly longer than the others, so I've proposed the following schedule below. Let us know if you feel it is too quick, too slow, too lopsided, etc.
12/3 - 12/30: Acquire the book/Overview/Title Page-The Induction
12/31 - 1/6: Chapter I-II
1/7 - 1/14: Chapter III-IV
1/14 - 1/21: Chapter V-VI
1/21 - 1/28: Chapter VII-VIII
1/28 - 2/4: Chapter IX-X
2/4 - 2/11: Chapter XI-XII
2/11 - 2/18: Chapter XIII-XIV
2/18 - 2/25: Chapter XV-XVI
2/25 - 3/4: Chapter XVII-XVIII
3/4 - 3/11: Chapter XIX-XX
3/11 - 3/18: Chapter XXI-XXII
3/18 - 3/25: Chapter XXIII-XXIV
3/25 - 4/1: Chapter XXV-XXVI
4/1 - 4/7: Chapter XXVII-XXVIII
4/8 - 4/14: Chapter XXIX-XXX
4/15 - 4/21: Chapter XXXI-XXXII
4/22 - 4/28: Chapter XXXIII
Some parting thoughts:
Can/should this be thread be stickied?
Since the copyright has expired, the book is available online for free at:
We can assign a person to facilitate discussion each week, or not. I am willing to volunteer for Week 1. If you are interested just holler and we can annotate the schedule accordingly. I don't imagine we need any rules for facilitation; when it's your turn just manage it however you like.
Cheers!
http://roguelikefiction.com |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 12/3/2007 11:10 AM | I had a post all typed suggesting a looser schedule and shorter time table, but now that I think about it reading a book in this way will be a new experience for me and perhaps a great way to appreciate a meaty book like Ouroborus. It looks fine, only one suggestion may be to move things back a bit, I was thinking of not starting until Jan 1 because people are so busy now with holidays we might attract a few more interested people if we waited until then.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 12/3/2007 11:37 AM | I also would suggest a 1 January reading start - allow people December to accomplish the first point of your suggested schedule, the procurement and the opening sections.
I like sticky-ing this thread for user ease.
Is a facilitator necessary? What's to facilitate? Readers of a particular section can post with or without one, so one probably isn't needed.
We are still allowing anyone to join at anytime, as they can see what point we are at by checking the schedule and thus catching up at will, right?
|
| Posted By : bleacheddecay - 12/3/2007 8:35 PM | I put it on hold. When it comes in, I'll give it a shot.
bleacheddecay |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 12/3/2007 9:25 PM | Sweet, I'll push back the dates a couple-three weeks and we should be good to go.
A facilitator definitely isn't necessary, but it might be interesting if you wanted a different helmsman to steer each week. One of us might prefer character studies, while a second might consider matters of form or style, or a search for all the outdated dirty words...
I'll allow a few more days and then we can firm up the schedule, how's that?
http://roguelikefiction.com |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 12/3/2007 10:46 PM | Sounds good bedford.
Welcome to the group read bleacheddecay, hopefully we can get a few more participants.
Everybody put 'Worm' on your xmas list, yeah?
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : bleacheddecay - 12/4/2007 1:53 AM | We'll see how it goes. I put it on my library hold list. In the past I've not been real good at reading to a certain point and stopping. LOL.
bleacheddecay |
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 12/4/2007 2:01 AM | yes, welcome to ye, bleached! 'nd who says ya gotta stop? Ya just can't get ahead in the posting or start talking about things us slower readers won't know yet !
|
| Posted By : bleacheddecay - 12/4/2007 2:45 AM | *smiles*
Ahh! That's much better then!
bleacheddecay |
| Posted By : Despiciblus - 12/6/2007 11:41 PM | I'd like to join in on this group read. I picked up an old Ballantine mass market edition at work and now I'm chomping at the bit.
Allen  |
| Posted By : bleacheddecay - 12/7/2007 12:05 AM | I'm picking up my copy tomorrow!
bleacheddecay |
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 12/7/2007 3:59 AM | | I have the 1977 Ballantine pb, green bordered cover, 520 pages, picked up, if I remember correctly, at my favorite annual library 10-cent sale last summer.
Oh - and welcome Allen 
|
| Posted By : Despiciblus - 12/7/2007 4:07 AM | von Darkmoor said...I have the 1977 Ballantine pb, green bordered cover, 520 pages, picked up, if I remember correctly, at my favorite annual library 10-cent sale last summer. Oh - and welcome Allen VIEW IMAGE
I have the 1974 edition, 520 pp, cover art very similar to the covers of the early pb Ballantine editions of Tolkien. |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 12/7/2007 9:04 AM | Oooh...I might have to track down that edition at my local used bookstore. You wouldn't happen to have a screenshot wouldja?
I've got the Ballentine editions of Gormenghast from the 70's (I believe) and they look fantastic.
|
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 12/7/2007 10:23 AM | My copy is on my version of the Sacred Texts CD, though I originally read it many many years ago - I believe our school library had an edition (our school library had some books dating back to the 16th century, though we weren't allowed to get at those for some reason).
I will participate as and when I have time. Be interesting to be back in the company of Brandoch Daha, Spitfire, Gro and the rest.
Brian Dolton
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2 (forthcoming)
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"When Winter Came" - ASIM#32 (forthcoming)
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 12/26/2007 11:14 PM | | I guess we should be starting on this shortly! My copy is still en route, so I'll be reading from the online copy available from the Sacred Texts archive until it arrives. I've never read the book, so I'm a bit mystified why it should show up in a site full of sacred texts?
In any case I suppose the coming weeks will have us spending some time back in the pre-Tolkien days of '22. I wonder what Eddison used for source material? It would be over half a century before the first Dungeon Master's Guide saw the light of day, and Gene Wolfe was still in high school...
|
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 12/27/2007 12:42 AM | hmmm, interesting; I know not. Perhaps the general consensus that life is a circle, whether via reincarnation, rejeneration, recreation, self-consumption or whatnot . . . perhaps belief in the eternal circle itself sanctifies the novel?
Either that, or there's a whole Eddisonian religion out there I wasn't aware of.
|
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 1/2/2008 10:15 AM | |
How to handle spoilers in this discussion? I can see us using some kind of hidden text, with folks decoding it in front of their computers, red acetate strips against the screen...
Should we assume spoilers are fair game as long as they allude to a section that we've already passed in the schedule?
In the meantime, I've noticed that the introductory poem Thomas the Rhymer was not in fact written by Eddison, but is an anonymously penned 17th century work. It remains to be seen why he chose that one, I guess; could it be some oblique reference to Spenser's 'The Faerie Queene'?
http://roguelikefiction.com |
| Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 1/2/2008 12:21 PM |
Spoilers said...
For spoilers, just select the text, then select White in the COLOR drop-down menu. I'd much appreciate that, since I'm the slow kid and will take a bit to catch up in reading.
No red acetate strips needed, fortunately (or unfortunately). Just select the text in the text box and the highlighting will make it visible. |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 1/2/2008 2:39 PM | We shouldn't worry about spoilers, each weekly post is supposed to cover however many chapters for that week: it should be understood that showing up for the discussion without having read will likely result in spoilage. I'm not highlighting text every time I want to read something.
Now, here's a question. Is it understood that he have our reading done before the first day of discussion and discuss that week, or by the end?
And Nathan, Wolfe wasn't even born in '22 ;)
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Nicholas - 1/2/2008 8:40 PM | | I'll dig up my copy and try to join in. I started it once a few years back, but got sidetracked away from it. This is the perfect incentive to keep nose to the grindstone and eyes to the page.
|
| Posted By : Gustavo - 1/2/2008 9:57 PM | I just got it off the net, which seems to mean that you can count me in.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
|
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 1/3/2008 1:19 AM | Bill Ward said...
Now, here's a question. Is it understood that he have our reading done before the first day of discussion and discuss that week, or by the end?
I'm thinking we could have the reading done by the end, as if it were that week's reading assignment?
That would leave us with this week to discuss Thomas the Rhymer, the induction, etc.
Also I like your idea of starting a new thread each week?
We could always use Lovesauce's highlighting trick if someone wants to refer to a spoiler in a chapter ahead of the current one.
http://roguelikefiction.com |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 1/3/2008 2:02 AM | OK, why not chat a bit about the induction etc. on this thread, then Monday someone can pop up a thread for Chaps 1 and 2. Someone could start a new thread every Monday.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : James Enge - 1/4/2008 8:38 PM | I'll kick in a word or two about the Induction...
I first read the book long ago and I like it a lot. But if I hadn't read acres of praise about this book by people whose opinion I trusted, I'm not sure I would made it past the "Induction" that first time. It seemed to be a very awkward ruse to get the reader to suspend disbelief about the imaginary world of the novel.
In later books by Eddison, Lessingham becomes an increasingly prominent and (to me) repellent character--a sort of Mary Sue on steroids. But he's not that bad in the Worm's Induction. Looking ahead to Ch. 1 (hope this isn't a spoiler) he just serves as a straight man for the martlet's infodumps about "Mercury." He mutters his last line early in Ch. 2 when Eddison suddenly seems to realize that Lessingham and the martlet serve no real function at all and drops them from the story.
Am I being too hard on Eddison here? Did any of you get more from the Induction than I did?
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"Turn Up This Crooked Way" in Black Gate 8
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6
"Payment Deferred" in Black Gate 9
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"The Gordian Stone" forthcoming in Every Day Fiction
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 1/4/2008 10:17 PM | No, I thought it was pretty useless actually. The kind of thing that would be excised from a modern novel for sure...the fact of its survival alone gives it a sort of charm I suppose, but it doesn't serve a function really. Maybe in a time before Fantasy with a capital F as a genre it was felt to be needed, I don't know.
Superseding the Induction in importance, to me, is this line from the dedication:
It is neither allegory nor fable but a Story to be read for its own sake.
Now, that's an attitude I can relate too. I think Tolkien might have brought that line up in one of his essays as well, as an example of the kind of thing he thought 'faerie stories' ought to be.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 1/5/2008 8:23 AM |
James Enge said...
Am I being too hard on Eddison here? Did any of you get more from the Induction than I did?
I didn't mind the Induction so much, if nothing less then because I was bewildered by it. It has a sort of Impressionist feel, which might as well make it as far removed from today's world as the planet they are going to. And the prose is very fine.
I didn't realize it was a framing device until the very end.
|
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 1/5/2008 12:48 PM | Which is good. I may have been a bit sour on it because I've heard about it when I read past reviews of Eddison and the like. May have been mentioned in the Ballantine intro as well, which I read years ago (and you'll read too Nathan, hopefully).
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Silly Boy - 1/6/2008 12:38 AM |
Bill Ward said...No, I thought it was pretty useless actually. The kind of thing that would be excised from a modern novel for sure...the fact of its survival alone gives it a sort of charm I suppose, but it doesn't serve a function really. Maybe in a time before Fantasy with a capital F as a genre it was felt to be needed, I don't know. Superseding the Induction in importance, to me, is this line from the dedication: It is neither allegory nor fable but a Story to be read for its own sake. Now, that's an attitude I can relate too. I think Tolkien might have brought that line up in one of his essays as well, as an example of the kind of thing he thought 'faerie stories' ought to be.
It seemed to me to be a combination "hey, I'm about to delve into fantasy, here, so don't blame me if you were looking for something "serious" and an attempt to set a mood. The former, because (in my VERY limited understanding of literature) before the formal codification of the genres, some people could get a little pissy if it wasn't explicit from the onset that a book was "just" a fantasy. The more erudite of you in the crowd, feel free to slap me silly (or sillier, anyway) if I am wholly incorrect. As for the latter, I think (without having read ahead) that he has done an admirable job of conjuring up a sense of creepiness and dread about the house, and the events that are transpiring.
Oh, and if you want to hear "Les Barricades Mysterieuses," it's here:
you may have to copy and paste, since I have no clue what i'm doing...
"I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this." Emo Phillips |
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 1/6/2008 8:21 AM | Silly Boy said...
It seemed to me to be a combination "hey, I'm about to delve into fantasy, here, so don't blame me if you were looking for something "serious" and an attempt to set a mood. The former, because (in my VERY limited understanding of literature) before the formal codification of the genres, some people could get a little pissy if it wasn't explicit from the onset that a book was "just" a fantasy. The more erudite of you in the crowd, feel free to slap me silly (or sillier, anyway) if I am wholly incorrect. As for the latter, I think (without having read ahead) that he has done an admirable job of conjuring up a sense of creepiness and dread about the house, and the events that are transpiring.
I think you're on to something, though even back then there was no hard and fast rule. Verne and Poe would often delve into fantasy implicitly, though from what I've seen it was more of a crescendo than an overture like we have here.
http://roguelikefiction.com |
| Posted By : Gustavo - 1/7/2008 1:11 PM | I have to agree with most of what's been said in the intro, and just add that, strangely, the house from the induction seems to have been at least part of the inspiration for Tolkien's House of Lost Play, which also seerves as a framing device in his earliest sketches of the Middle-Earth mythology.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
|
| Posted By : Nik - 1/8/2008 5:20 PM | I'm going to try to catch up and keep up with all of you. Just picked up a fourth Ballantine printing (1968).
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Winter 2008
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Despiciblus - 1/10/2008 12:21 AM | I’ve read that Eddison cribbed the names for the nations/factions in The Worm Ouroboros from his own childhood notebooks. Apparently the story had been stewing away in his mind from an early age. I wish I could site my source for this info but I’m drawing a blank.
I’m probably stating the obvious but this strange nomenclature is simply Eddison’s way to denote nationalism, and the genealogies of his world’s aristocracy. There's probably no hidden meaning in them. That said, I’m going to climb out on a limb with the following: since the tale reads like Jacobean lit in both plot and language, I’m wondering if the Witches, Demons, Goblins and Pixies might be reflections of the Greco-roman belief in the humors: blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile, which were supposed to explain behavioral differences in people. Ben Jonson did it, so why not Eddison?
Allen  |
| Posted By : James Enge - 1/10/2008 1:06 PM | Despiciblus said...
I’m wondering if the Witches, Demons, Goblins and Pixies might be reflections of the Greco-roman belief in the humors: blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile, which were supposed to explain behavioral differences in people. Ben Jonson did it, so why not Eddison?
Interesting! Which nation do you think goes with which humor?
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"Turn Up This Crooked Way" in Black Gate 8
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6
"Payment Deferred" in Black Gate 9
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"The Gordian Stone" forthcoming in Every Day Fiction
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate |
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 1/14/2008 11:58 AM | well gents, in case no one's noticed, I'll confess now to being behind - I will try to catch up but I'd say don't count on me right now - this lack of reading time for the first time in my life has been a bit trying, darn it all!
|
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 1/14/2008 7:55 PM | I've fallen behind too, and blame you for it. 
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 1/15/2008 12:59 AM | moi?! Y ever 4? You're a big boy, Billie; methinks perhaps it is the overkill you've done to yourself the last few years. so you don't have 50 books read by the end of January - will you really melt away? 
|
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 1/15/2008 1:26 AM | I have been feeling somewhat liquescent lately....
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 1/21/2008 6:05 PM | For anyone that has fallen behind please go ahead and post in the earlier threads, no reason those of us who have read ahead can't still discuss the earlier chapters, and I'm sure there's plenty to talk about we didn't mention the first time around.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 1/21/2008 10:30 PM | <ouch!> Hey <oof!>, thans for the <yowzers!> gentle prod <hey! watch it!> there . . . but it ain't looking good for the good looking - if ya know whats I mean. I yam whats I yam, and right now I yams an editor with no time to be a-reading. Forgive me all, my intentions were pure.
|
| Posted By : Nathan Jerpe - 2/1/2008 12:14 PM | | Below is a Dramatis Personae for the Worm Ouroboros. Might be fun to add annotations (short descriptions, what chapter a character was introduced in, etc.)
This is a work-in-progress.
HUMANS
Lessingham
Lessingham's wife(?)
ANIMALS
The Martlet
DEMONS
Lord Juss
Volle
Vizz
Lord Zigg
Spitfire
Goldry Bluzco
Brandoch Daha
Lady Mevrian
Astar of Rettray
Bremery of Shaws
WITCHES
Ambassador to the Demons
King Gorice XI
Corinius
Corund
King Gorice XII
Duke Corsus
Hacmon, son of Corund
Heming, son of Corund
Viglus, son of Corund
Dormanes, son of Corund
Laxus
Lady Sriva
Gallandus
Heming
Cargo, son of Corund
Dekalajus, son of Corsus
Gorius, son of Corsus
GOBLINS
Lord Gro
Gaslark
Teshmar
Helteranius
Zeldornius
Jalcanaius Fostus
PIXIES
La Fireez
Prezmyra
IMPS
Fax Fay Faz
Mivarsh Faz
Illarosh Faz
Lurmesh Faz
Gandassa Faz
Philpritz Faz
OTHERS
The Red Foliot
|
| Posted By : Bill Ward - 2/1/2008 1:53 PM | Great job on that Nathan, I kept wishing for a dramatis persona in my book while I was reading.
Another thing that might be useful is a list of what cities belong to what factions, since quite often Eddison just mentions the city--and I've usually forgotten exactly who's it is at that point :)
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Nik - 2/1/2008 3:20 PM | Thanks, nathan, This is great. Don't forget Mevrian for the Demons category.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Winter 2008
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
|