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| Posted By : Anthony G Williams - 2/27/2008 5:00 AM | | I've just finished reading a book called "The Bible Unearthed: archaeology's new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its sacred texts", by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. It's an academic study (by a couple of academics...) which compares the story of the Israelites as told in the first few books of the Old Testament up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC, with what contemporary records from Egyptian, Assyrian and other sources have to say, and what modern archaeology has revealed about that period.
The result is quite fascinating; too complex to go into in detail here, but the conclusion is that this part of the Bible was largely written at one time - the radical reforming reign of Josiah, King of Judah (639-609 BC) - with the deliberate purpose of providing an inspirational text for strengthening the religion and sense of nationhood among Israelites. It is a mixture of historical fact, seen through the highly distorting lens of a particular religious standpoint (which wasn't shared by the majority of Israelites at the time), and mythology. To give one example of the latter, at the time of King David (whose existence seems to be akin to King Arthur's in England: a core of truth overlain by a huge mythology) Jerusalem was supposed to have been the centre of a powerful Israelite nation, with a massive temple and defensive walls. In fact, archaeology and other evidence has revealed that at that time Jerusalem was a small village with no walls and no grand buildings, and Judah was an insignificant country.
A fascinating study which I recommend to anyone with an interest in the subject.
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| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/27/2008 2:15 PM | For another point of view on this, which both clarifies and fixes some of the problems with the dating system most commonly used, try Pharaohs and Kings, by David Rohl. If, as Rohl claims, our dating system is off, then David ruled over the much more prosperous late bronze-age Jerusalem, rather than the later early iron-age village. Remeber, too, that David was only the second king, and the temple wasn't built until the rule of his son, Solomon. The biblical account of David's rule (as well as what little contemporary info we have from an Egyptian governor and some Assyrian diplomatic notes) indicate that rather than being a great builder like his son, David was more of a war chief and consolidator of Saul's early aquisitions.
So, in either case, we wouldn't expect to see a temple in David's time, as it hadn't been built yet, nor large city walls.
If I am correct, Silberman is a regular contributer to Biblical Archeological Review, one of my favorite magazines. Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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| Posted By : Steven the Git - 2/27/2008 8:12 PM | I have a book called the Oxford Companion to the Bible, which does much the same thing. It strips the mistakes and mythology down and gives you scholarly opinions (many different ones) and archaelogical evidence, and theories on all manner of subjects touched on in the Bible. I would recommend that as well, if it is a big sod of a book.
There is a suggestion that David was more of a warlord of Judah, exercising influence over the rest of the nation and winning battles, and then Solomon consolidated the throne with economic success, but the northern people broke off as soon as they could. Differences in dialect between north and south are mentioned, and how outside influences affected their view of religion, and yes, how much was formed in the time of Josiah with the Deuteronomic History. Many also think worhsipping other gods was common in the countryside and it was in this time that people were 'conformed' into worshipping at one temple.
There are many aspects to the history and beliefs of the people of Israel then that are long forgotten and have much to say on how we perceive both. Personally I found is fascinating and the more of what I assumed to be true was proven wrong, the closer I felt to truth.
It must be said that many facts have enlightened as well as corrected. One thing I know is that many questioned the idea of a crucified man having holes in his hands, until they found a skeleton with them. “Hello, I am William Burton, Head of Recruitment and Integration for the Agency for Peaceful Regulation and Definitive Cooperation of Extraordinary Existence.”
spinetinglers.co.uk Bakemono will not stop! |

| Posted By : Anthony G Williams - 2/27/2008 9:29 PM | The Bible Unearthed is a very dense book which covers a huge amount of ground and took me quite a while to read, but IIRC the conclusion on this issue is that there is no extra-Biblical evidence that a united Judah+Israel ever existed: not under Saul, David or Solomon, or at any other time. During the Bronze Age, the archaeological evidence indicates that it was used mainly by nomadic pastoral herders, with few signs of any kind of settlement.
Israel was of course a much larger, richer and more populous country and Judah always seemed to be the "poor country cousin" with no significant urban development until after Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians in 724 BC. Jerusalem only became a significant city (and Judah a sophisticated state) in the 7th Century BC, only about a century or so before it was destroyed - and that was the century in which the history of the Israelites is believed to have been written.
For the record, Israel Finkelstein is Diretor of the Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaelogy at Tel Aviv University, Neil Silberman is Director of Historical Interpretation for the Ename Center for Public Archaeology and Heritage Presentation in Belgium and is a contributing editor to Archaeology magazine.
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| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/27/2008 11:21 PM | | I'm not so certain Jerusalem was so insignificant--- remember there are many schools of thought on Bibilical historicity.
The city was mentioned in Egyptian writings in the nineteenth century B.C. as "Urusalimum" and the Armarna tablets from 1300 BC call it by the Assyrian name "Ursalimmu."
When David found it, it was a Jebusite fort (recently discovered), and no matter which dating system you use, the 1100's were a pretty rough time. It was the middle of the Bronze-age collapse, and many great cities of the bronze-age were simply abandoned, some never to be re-built, including Carcamish and Mycenae. There clearly are signs of habitation in Jerusalem that go much farther back... the natural fortress caused by the three valleys surrounding it, with its elevation in the center, and reliable wells make its defensive characteristics obvious.
The writer of the Armarna tablet from Jerusalem titles himself as king, and though it was not unusual for the chief of any tribe of hill bandits to use that title then, the fact that this king had a scribe to write, and the ear of Pharaoh, at least enough of it to whine for help, would seem to indicate that he was head of something larger than a village of herders.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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| Posted By : Anthony G Williams - 2/28/2008 4:16 AM | Yes, The Bible Unearthed spends some time discussing the various different theories concerning the actual history of the Israelites and of Judah which have been explored, and makes assessments of the evidence for them. The conclusion of all of the evidence, including the latest archaeological research, is summarised as follows:
"Judah was a rather isolated and sparsely populated kingdom until the 8th century BCE....Literacy was very limited and its capital, Jerusalem, was a small, remote, hill-country town."
On the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites returning from Egypt described in the Bible, the authors say this:
"As with the Exodus story, archaeology has discovered a dramatic discrepancy between the Bible and the situation within Canaan at the suggest date of the conquest, between 1230 and 1220 BCE. There is abundant evidence from Egyptian texts of the Late Bronze Age (1550-1150 BCE) on affairs in Canaan [much description of evidence, mostly letters from the rulers of Canaanite cities including Jerusalem]. In the Bible, no Egyptians are reported outside the boundaries of Egypt and none are mentioned in any of the battles within Canaan. Yet contemporary texts and archaeological finds indicated that they managed and carefully watched over the affairs of the country. The princes of the Canaanite cities (described in the book of Joshua as powerful enemies) were, in actuality, pathetically weak. Excavations have shown that the cities of Canaan in this period wrer not regular cities of the kind we know in later history. They were mainly administrative strongholds for the elite, housing the king, his family and his small entourage of bureaucrats, with the peasants living scattered throughout the surrounding countryside in small villages. The typical city had only a palace, a a temple compound, and a few other public edifices....there were no city walls. The formidable Canaanite cities described in the conquest narrative were not protected by fortifications!"
The book goes on to say that it is clear that Egypt retained a very tight grip on Canaan throughout this period, including their own strongholds in the area, so the probability of an Israelite army rampaging through the area conquering cities, all without comment or intervention from Egypt, is exceedingly small.
Tony Williams Scales (2007), The Foresight War (2004) Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Blog: http://sciencefictionfantasy.blogspot.com/ >>
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| Posted By : Anthony G Williams - 2/28/2008 4:30 AM | A different aspect of the book which rather amused me concerned the verdicts expressed in the Bible on the various kings of Judah and Israel. The one whom the Biblical writers vilify the most was Manasseh of Judah (698-642 BCE), who is described as doing "evil in the sight of the Lord". His immediate predecessor, Hezekiah, is warmly praised for his piety despite the fact that he initiated a revolt against the local power, the Assyrians, which led to Judah being overrun and devastated. Manasseh sensibly got the message and steered a careful political course throughout his astonishingly long (56 year) reign, avoiding all conflict and greatly enhancing the wealth of Judah. So why is he so vilified? Because he tolerated the practice of other religions alongside the worship of the Israelite God, and didn't insist that Israelites must marry only among themselves.
I have to say that the writers of these Biblical texts do not come over very well. They were a racist, bigoted, intolerant crew, who judged everything that happened purely in the context of their view of religion. Were it possible for me to meet them, I suspect that I would dislike them intensely. Manasseh, in contrast, sounds like my kind of ruler!
Tony Williams Scales (2007), The Foresight War (2004) Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Blog: http://sciencefictionfantasy.blogspot.com/ >>
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| Posted By : Steven the Git - 2/28/2008 9:53 AM | There is a difference between writers and editors. Most of the writers had their own views and were simply recalling the tales of their people. If you look at Samuel, David is not always cast in a positive light. Later, in Chronicles, any flaw is left out. There seems to have been groups of editors who organnised various writings and, shall we say, clarified them.
As for the conquest of Canaan, I have read there is next to no evidence of destruction throughout the area that would herald an invasion, although various cities were levelled at times. I think many now suggest a peaceful migration is the more likely.
I always wonder when new theories are put into a book, especially when it touches on something sensitive or famous. My first reaction is to suspect sensationalism in order to attract readers. What we can be sure of is we know little still and shouldn't think of the Bible as a well rounded and completely accurate description of the time and region. Like any group, they had their own ideas that affcted their work.
Face it, one day people will write about the war on terror in the MIddle East and their own personal views will affect it. If one side of the argument was lost, as has pretty much happened with ancient Israel, then people in the future could think, hey, what a great war! Or not. “Hello, I am William Burton, Head of Recruitment and Integration for the Agency for Peaceful Regulation and Definitive Cooperation of Extraordinary Existence.”
spinetinglers.co.uk Bakemono will not stop! |

| Posted By : Anthony G Williams - 2/28/2008 12:20 PM |
Steven the Git said...
I always wonder when new theories are put into a book, especially when it touches on something sensitive or famous. My first reaction is to suspect sensationalism in order to attract readers. What we can be sure of is we know little still and shouldn't think of the Bible as a well rounded and completely accurate description of the time and region. Like any group, they had their own ideas that affcted their work.
True enough, but in this case the two authors are heavyweight academics, already at the top of their profession, who have put their professional reputation on the line. The book is certanly not written in a sensationalist fashion: it consists of a careful and methodical description and evaluation of all of the available evidence from the Bible, other contemporary texts and archaeology.
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| Posted By : darkbow - 2/28/2008 2:27 PM | Just to jump in a little ... I've quite enjoyed this conversation. I have little to add from a scholarly perspective, nearly all my Biblical historical studies being focused upon the New Testament (it comes with Classical History degree).
That being said, ancient Israel and Judah have always reminded me a bit (politcally) of Iceland in the 9th and 10th centuries. Basically, its a bunch of farmers living in huts, though a fight breaks out every once in a while and one of the big-shot farmers declares himself king or chief or what-not. www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com
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| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/28/2008 5:21 PM | Yes Anthony, these guys are heavyweights. And equally heavy weights in the field have other opinions, based on latest research and ancient documents. I have been reading in this field for a couple of decades, and every year another definitive study, phone book sized and lavishly footnoted, by Phd's who are leaders in the field arrives, with different conclusions than the last.
These guys may be right, but please understand that there may be no more politicised area of study than Holy Land archeology--- read the letters sections of any of the journals to find slow-motion flame wars between heavy-weight scholars over the most trivial of differences in thier studies and findings.
This is their take on a complex subject--- there are many more with equal gravitas who don't agree.
Still, a cool book, and one worth sharing--- thanks! Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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| Posted By : Anthony G Williams - 2/29/2008 2:01 AM | | Michael, I am very familiar with academics and recognise the kind of intense battles over minutiae which you describe. It's therefore important when reading their output to distinguish between the evidence which they present and the conclusions which they draw from it.
These authors state as a fact that archaeological evidence shows that Jerusalem remained a small settlement without any imposing buildings or defences until after the destruction of Israel. That should be provable, one way or the other. Do you know of any evidence which contradicts that?
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| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 2/29/2008 1:58 PM | | I'm sorry. I don't understand. At which date are you claiming that Jerusalem was not a city?
Biblically, David found a Jebusite fort, which he took over and started building the city; the temple was built by Solomon. Depending on which dating system, this was no earlier than 1000 BC, in the tail of the Bronze-age collapse, where little or no written evidence would be expected.
Another problem is the relative scale of cities during this period. Most estimates give a polulation peaking at 5000--- by the standards of the time, this was a city, a decent sized one. Two of the largest cities at that time, Nineveh and Babylon, only had populations of 100,000 and 50,000 respectively, and they were the world's great cities.
I am not trying to argue one point of view over another--- which school of thought you find most convincing is between you and whomever you choose to read. All I have pointed out is, things are not so cut-and-dried as your boys claim.
Even wikipedia agrees that The Bible Unearthed should not be taken as holy writ: "On one hand is the view of Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University, who says (although he has been sharply criticized [30]), in his The Bible Unearthed (2001): "[O]n the basis of archaeological surveys, Judah remained relatively empty of permanent population, quite isolated and very marginal right up to and past the presumed time of David and Solomon, with no major urban centers and with no pronounced hierarchy of hamlets, villages and towns." [31] On the other is William Dever, in his What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?,[32] holds that the archaeological and anthropological evidence supports the broad biblical account of a Judean state in the 10th century BCE. [33]"
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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| Posted By : nathan - 2/29/2008 3:29 PM |
Steven the Git said...
What we can be sure of is we know little still and shouldn't think of the Bible as a well rounded and completely accurate description of the time and region.
Exactly. I agree. The intent and purpose of the anthology is neither archeological or straight historical or even anthropological except indirectly: it is a book describing trials of faith and a relationship
If a guy writing then described something as a city and today we think it a town--it has nothing to with the gist of what is being communicated. If there were some blue states in David’s red state kingdom and the kingdom was a postage stamp but still called a kingdom in the jargon of the time--it has no bearing on the thrust of the story which was David’s journey and trials of faith.
Taking the bible out of it’s context by the faithful can lead to preposterous claims such as the earth is 6500 years old. Being deliberately obtuse to the role of the bible by those that which to deconstruct it can lead to a quagmire of details about Bronze-age politics and self-identity that are beyond the direct or scope the bible was ever meant to be taken in.
I was taught that much of the bible is myth. Myth being defined as: “A story, unconcerned with facts, that tells a larger truth.”
Maybe it’s nice when the Discovery Channel does a nice special on the Exodus and finds a wealth of archeological evidence just as it’s head scratching when we learn Jerusalem might have had some Blue State/Red State divides in its borders, no walls and an imprecise timeline.
But neither one is foundational to the experience of faith. VIEW IMAGE "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |

| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 2/29/2008 5:24 PM |
nathan said...
I was taught that much of the bible is myth. Myth being defined as: “A story, unconcerned with facts, that tells a larger truth.”. . .
But neither one is foundational to the experience of faith. - 'If the Torah was only stories--we could've written better stories.' - From 'God Is A Verb'
- Every story has at least three meanings, every word as many meanings as there are jews in the world.
- I've seen this over and over in studying ancient stories. People who take them as literal, miss the meanings and lessons.
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| Posted By : Steven the Git - 2/29/2008 7:09 PM |
nathan said..
I was taught that much of the bible is myth. Myth being defined as: “A story, unconcerned with facts, that tells a larger truth.”
Totally agree back. I read somewhere the understanding of a myth was that it contained superhuman characters and was often set in another world or plane of existence beside our own.
For that matter the Epic of Gilgamesh is a myth, and yet the facing of the reality of death and the realisation that legacy is the only solution can pertain to anyone at anytime. “Hello, I am William Burton, Head of Recruitment and Integration for the Agency for Peaceful Regulation and Definitive Cooperation of Extraordinary Existence.”
spinetinglers.co.uk Bakemono will not stop! |

| Posted By : Anthony G Williams - 3/2/2008 5:13 AM |
MichaelEhart said... I'm sorry. I don't understand. At which date are you claiming that Jerusalem was not a city?
Biblically, David found a Jebusite fort, which he took over and started building the city; the temple was built by Solomon. Depending on which dating system, this was no earlier than 1000 BC, in the tail of the Bronze-age collapse, where little or no written evidence would be expected.
Another problem is the relative scale of cities during this period. Most estimates give a polulation peaking at 5000--- by the standards of the time, this was a city, a decent sized one. Two of the largest cities at that time, Nineveh and Babylon, only had populations of 100,000 and 50,000 respectively, and they were the world's great cities.
I am not trying to argue one point of view over another--- which school of thought you find most convincing is between you and whomever you choose to read. All I have pointed out is, things are not so cut-and-dried as your boys claim.
Even wikipedia agrees that The Bible Unearthed should not be taken as holy writ: "On one hand is the view of Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University, who says (although he has been sharply criticized [30]), in his The Bible Unearthed (2001): "[O]n the basis of archaeological surveys, Judah remained relatively empty of permanent population, quite isolated and very marginal right up to and past the presumed time of David and Solomon, with no major urban centers and with no pronounced hierarchy of hamlets, villages and towns." [31] On the other is William Dever, in his What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?,[32] holds that the archaeological and anthropological evidence supports the broad biblical account of a Judean state in the 10th century BCE. [33]"
I'm not claiming anything - I'm reporting what Finkelstein and Silberman are claiming, which is as described in the Wiki quote (thanks for that, btw).
Oh well, I'm not an archaeologist so I'm in no position to evaluate the evidence for myself. Presumably these academic spats will result in some conclusion being agreed eventually - they usually do (although sometimes not until the last of the champions of the losing side has died...)
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| Posted By : nathan - 3/3/2008 12:57 AM |
Anthony G Williams said...
(although sometimes not until the last of the champions of the losing side has died...) You know this sounds like some flame wars I've lurked on as well, lol. VIEW IMAGE "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
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