The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=27&m=78877
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/28/2008 1:34 AM | Sometime back we had a discussion about publications rejecting stuff that was 'too rpg' and elves and dwarves came up.
It's pretty well accepted that if there's a dwarf in the story or an elf, it's 'RPG' related and someone expressed the idea that fantasy didn't have to be about anything but humans.
I got bored yesterday and decided to see what I could find on Project Gutenberg that I could release as books which would compliment Flashing Swords. I ran across the Elder and Younger Eddas and thought "hmm... I'll bet there are plenty of my readers who would enjoy those'.
So I downloaded a copy of both, having read neither, and started typesetting Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda.
Norse Myth for those who don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
And about 6 chapters into it I find this:
"There are yet more norns, namely those who come to every man when he is born, to shape his life, and these are known to be of the race of gods; others, on the other hand, are of the race of elves, and yet others are of the race of dwarfs."
I about fell off my chair laughing. Then I went back and read what I was working on and realized, Tolkien blatantly stole Norse Myth for his entire world for Lord of the Rings. And changed very little of what he stole. He almost didn't even change the names! And since D&D is heavily based on Tolkien, and most fantasy RPG's are heavily based on D&D, they all blatantly steal from Norse Myth.
So much for 'too RPG'. |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 4/28/2008 5:04 AM | | I didn't think anyone believed that elves or dwarves (unlike, say, umber hulks or kender) were RPG creations (after all, Tolkein predates RPGs by some way).
I think the problem is that most people (in the fantasy arena) are primarily exposed to them through RPGs, and certainly the idea that elves, humans and dwarves co-exist as civilised races is very much an FRP archetype. It is thus incredibly hard to do in a way that doesn't (particularly to an editor) seem unoriginal.
I have one milieu that has "elves" (of sorts) in, but you can be absolutely sure that I'll call them something else if I want to get stories from that setting published.
The names have just become hotkeys, and have so much readership baggage that unless you are going back to root sources (and frankly even if I were doing them in Norse stories I'd refer to elves as alfar), they're simlpy best avoided.
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 4/28/2008 5:12 AM | Oh, and as for Tolkein "stealing" Norse myth - Tolkein borrowed enormously from Northern European myth cycles (primarily Norse/Teutonic, but also quite a bit of Finnish). the reason he did so was that what he was trying to write was a kind of "missing" English myth cycle. One of the things that isn't clearyl understood by a lot of people reading Tolkein is that he was writing myth, not fantasy fiction, and there are significant differences in how these work, how they are structured, and what elements do and don't need to be in place - one of the fundamental being that there is no religion in myth, because these are the very figures around which religion is built - yes, there are "Gods" in the Silmarillion, but the human and other societies depicted in the books have no functioning religion or system of worship, and indeed societies only exist when and where and in what terms they are functional to the plot - there is no "world-building" in an real sense. A lot of fantasy authors have imitated Tolkein without understanding what he was doing, and the majority of the resulting works are, frankly, not very good at all, because they lack his understanding of myth but fail to compensate by building a real and believable world for their stories to live in.
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/28/2008 5:48 AM | I never thought elves and dwarves were anything to do with RPG's.
Michael Moorcock's Elric and Corum are obviously a species based on Elves. The Melibonians and the Vadragh (or however he spelt Corum's folk.) Moonglum is short enough to be considered a dwarf I expect. I have no doubt Moorcock was aware of these similarities.
Erekose champions the Eldren cause...the Eldren are obviously a species of elf. The narrow faces, wide eyes, pointed ears etc.
Who says elves have to be shorter than humans?
I guess the reason that so many people associate elves with RPG's is because the 'younger generation' haven't read enough of auhtors that were published from the 60's to the 70's.
Poul Anderson's The King of Elfland's Daughter also springs to mind.
There are elves and dwarves in Alan's Garner Weirdstone of Brisingamen and Moon of Gomrath...perhaps the best portrayal of each species anywhere.
RPG's are notorius for stealing characters and ideas and species from just about every fantasy story that's ever been written.
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
|
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 4/28/2008 11:29 AM |
Jaqhama said...
Poul Anderson's The King of Elfland's Daughter also springs to mind.
Um, I'm guessing you mean Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword" and Lord Dunsany's "The King Of Elfland's Daughter".
And Alan Garner was another who drew very heavily on Norse mythology, hence his use of elves and dwarves.
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Rob Santa - 4/28/2008 11:41 AM | Gotta agree with Mike here. None of us here who have read fantasy since about six seconds after putting down Dr. Seuss would confuse any of the elf and dwarf races with RPGs. Yet the great unwashed do. I believe (and have bunches of rejections to prove it) that fantasy stories don't even need these centuries-old elements for editors to feel they are "merely derivations of Saturday night's gaming session." A sword and a quest will do it. All we can do is keep sending those manuscripts out until we find editors and first-readers who are on our side of the fence.
Rob Santa
Hopelessly Addicted Writer of Speculative Fiction
and CEO of Ricasso Press |
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/28/2008 12:55 PM |
crystalwizard said...
..Tolkien blatantly stole Norse Myth for his entire world for Lord of the Rings. And changed very little of what he stole. He almost didn't even change the names! And since D&D is heavily based on Tolkien, and most fantasy RPG's are heavily based on D&D, they all blatantly steal from Norse Myth.
Um, yeah.  That's what I've been trying to say for a while now. These things aren't "fantasy tropes" or "D&D tropes", they're "mythic tropes", "legendary tropes", and "folkloric tropes". These things have been a part of human imagination for a long, long time.
Tolkien didn't develop his work in a vaccuum. He was influenced by those who came before, just as he has influenced those who have come since. I see George MacDonald listed quite frequently as an influence on the works of both Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. And Tolkien did indeed borrow heavily from the mythic works he studied. Remember, he was a scholar as well as a writer.
I am currently reading a couple of encyclopedic works by Carol Rose, Giants, Monsters, and Dragons, and Spirits, Fairies, Leprechauns, and Goblins. It's amazing how many of the creatures from different cultures all around the world share similar characteristics, especially the "little people" (which dwarfs, elves, and goblins would be a part of). Stories about these beings are obviously an integral part of the human experience, way beyond role-playing games or fantasy literature.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/28/2008 1:22 PM |
erazmus said...
Or didn't you ever spend an hour standing in line for a movie listening to some kid complaining that Beowulf ripped off LotR?  Disgusting ignorance! Laughable lack of knowledge! Beowulf ripped off LotR? That's too funny, in a sick, ironic way. The oldest epic in the English language, and these people are clueless about it. Even if the movie was a re-imagining, it was a re-imagining of a story at least 1,000 years old (or more probably a whole lot older).
Anyone wonder why I homeschool? 
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/28/2008 1:50 PM |
RHFay said...
Um, yeah. That's what I've been trying to say for a while now. These things aren't "fantasy tropes" or "D&D tropes", they're "mythic tropes", "legendary tropes", and "folkloric tropes". These things have been a part of human imagination for a long, long time. Gotta go with Mike here. It matters not what the literati knows, only what the masses believe.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : Hermit - 4/28/2008 4:57 PM | Well, actually . . .
Beowulf borrows heavily from the Eddas as well. So . . . it's not as far off as it might seem. Simply a generation gap. And, hey! at least the kids are aware enough to see patterns among LOTR, Beowulf, Narnia and such movies. It scares me when some kid snaps up his head and says something about "how you figure?" when anyone says anything about the works being similar.
RHFay said...
erazmus said...
Or didn't you ever spend an hour standing in line for a movie listening to some kid complaining that Beowulf ripped off LotR? Disgusting ignorance! Laughable lack of knowledge! Beowulf ripped off LotR? That's too funny, in a sick, ironic way. The oldest epic in the English language, and these people are clueless about it. Even if the movie was a re-imagining, it was a re-imagining of a story at least 1,000 years old (or more probably a whole lot older).
Anyone wonder why I homeschool?
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword! Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Hermit - 4/28/2008 5:02 PM |
erazmus said... Dwarves = RPG, and most editors are unsure whether WotC has a trademark on them or not, and won't risk finding out they do.  That's just about the most ignorant superstition I've heard of in relation to trademark. So . . . who holds the trademark for Medusa and Cerberus? Unfortunately, I've seen enough to believe that you have a valid point. I've heard complaints that the book adaptation of the Lord of the Rings movies was too long. Its useless to try to compete with that sort of monumental ignorance. Compete? I thought we were trying to create a campaign against it! Swords together!  Genre readers may be slightly less ignorant but I wouldn't bet on it. Yeah! Not a wager I'd take, either.
Mike
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : darkbow - 4/28/2008 6:04 PM | As a writer, and a role player, elves and dwarves just bore me. I don't play them. I don't write them. They've been done over and over and over and over. If they are done in a unique manner (Moorcock, for example, and even early Salvatore), then I'll pay attention. I'm not opposed to others writing or playing such characters, but it's not for me. As for being RPG or not ... well, if you're writing about elves (as example), for the love of the gods don't give YOUR elves the exact same qualities as D&D elves (good with a bow and longsword, excellent stealth abilities, good dexterity, etc. etc.) UNLESS you can come up with some very unique background or character or something.
I think it's that simple for a lot readers and editors. They've seen more than their share of elves and dwarves.
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
|
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/28/2008 7:08 PM | darkbow said...
I think it's that simple for a lot readers and editors. They've seen more than their share of elves and dwarves.
But they live with humans. Surely they see more than their share of humans. Don't humans bore them too? |
| Posted By : Silly Boy - 4/28/2008 7:44 PM | "touche', pussygato!" (Tom and Jerry....Jerry's nephew, in the cartoon where they spoof the The Three Musketeers. 
"It's "i" before "e," except after "c," and when sounding like "a" as in "neighbor and "weigh," and on weekends and holidays, and all throughout May, and you'll always be wrong, no matter what you say!"---Brian Regan |
| Posted By : darkbow - 4/28/2008 8:36 PM | If humans acted and appeared the same way all the time, then readers would get tired of them, as they do with many stereotypical characters.. I'm not saying there aren't some interesting dwarves and elves to be found, but I am saying that most writers who use non-human races tend to fall into the trap of making those characters stereotypical.
And to add, I've never quite understood why there is a need for other races as protagonists in fantasy fiction. Humanity seems to be diverse enough, in my opinion, to explore just about anything. Antagonists of a different race I can kind of understand, the element of the alien unknown adding to the threat level. Even in sci-fi I can see potential for alien races as protagonists, to explore the alien relations/experience as it relates to humanity. In fantasy, as far as I see, most elves are just humans with pointy ears and most dwarves are just short and carrying a battle axe. Keep in mind I said "most." When I see elves or dwarves or orcs or whatever that stand out from the crowd, I've quite enjoyed those stories. But a story that has an elf in it when there is no reason (within the plot) for the character to be an elf ... well, it just irks me.
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
|
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/28/2008 8:54 PM | Jordan Lapp said...
It matters not what the literati knows, only what the masses believe.
So tell me (and this isn't just a question to Jordan, he simply provided a good line to quote), how many of those 'masses' do you think we might be educating with this public forum :) (not that any of them are likely to do more than lurk and not post, I suppose) |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 4/29/2008 5:16 AM | If you want an... interesting... take on dwarves and elves, try books like "Astra and Flondrix" or "Noose of Light" by Seamus Cullen (a pseudonym, but I don't know who for). It's decades since I read either but I can still remember certain elements.
However, don't even think of going near the books if you are easily offended by anything sexual, because they are pretty explicit, and in very strange ways.
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/29/2008 5:56 AM |
tchernabyelo said...
Jaqhama said...
Poul Anderson's The King of Elfland's Daughter also springs to mind.
Um, I'm guessing you mean Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword" and Lord Dunsany's "The King Of Elfland's Daughter".
And Alan Garner was another who drew very heavily on Norse mythology, hence his use of elves and dwarves.
Yeah...that's it. Cheers mate.
I post a lot in the early AM at work. Low blood sugar and all that stuff.
My excuse and I'm sticking to it.
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
|
| Posted By : Keralen - 4/29/2008 8:11 AM | |
Anyone who wants to read a different take on elves should try Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies. 
He does dwarfs really, really well too, through all the Ankh-Morpork books. The Fifth Elephant comes to mind. These are not your rpg stereotypes. Much. |
| Posted By : Hermit - 4/29/2008 9:23 AM |
crystalwizard said...
Jordan Lapp said...
It matters not what the literati knows, only what the masses believe. So tell me (and this isn't just a question to Jordan, he simply provided a good line to quote), how many of those 'masses' do you think we might be educating with this public forum :) (not that any of them are likely to do more than lurk and not post, I suppose) Okay. I'm your spade - or huckleberry, or somethin . . . I consider myself on the fringe, but I learn a great deal from the fori ('forums' is technically incorrect, but usage makes it acceptable). Any good teacher should be eager to tell you that teaching is the best way for a knowledgable student to learn more. The things I learn here keep me coming back. So . . . even the literati can learn here. And, just for the record, if I use 'philistine' or other such words as pejoratives, that's me being 1) ironic, 2) an insensative lout, or 3) an ascerbic curmudgeon - so don't anyone take it personal, cuz it ain't!
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : erazmus - 4/29/2008 1:30 PM | Keralen said...Anyone who wants to read a different take on elves should try Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies. VIEW IMAGE He does dwarfs really, really well too, through all the Ankh-Morpork books. The Fifth Elephant comes to mind. These are not your rpg stereotypes. Much.
Keralen,
Its the "RPG stereotypes" I'm searching for here. How could anyone possibly know how dwarves were played in _my_ games? (badly in most cases, but thats just the law of averages.) When did we run dwarves into the ground?
Way back when I was just a wee fantasy reader one of my favorite Tolkien rip-offs, which I eagerly devoured because there wasn't that much fantasy around then, and I'd mostly read it, was Brooks first Shanara book, the Sword of Shanara.
Now I never read past "Elfstones" in that series, because publishers took care of the dearth of fantasy in spades right after I read the first one and the rest didn't really trip my trigger, but from it I got a couple of favorite characters, including one Hendal, a dwarf of some distinct character and many intereting attributes. (who's name I may have wrong, its been a long while.)
Over the next decade, while I was wasting my time developing and running D&D games instead of learning to write fiction, I saw a lot of dwarf characters cross my gaming table, some even drawn from the Brooks mold, but never one as interesting as Hendal (or what ever his name was). A writer of fiction does much more than a supplement writer. Both provide background, situations and occasionally interesting characters but the fiction writer does all that in passing, what he's really doing is telling a story. And I just don't think anyone has ever really done that with dwarves, even with stereotypical RPG style dwarves.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Pink Plastic Flamingos" in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/m.html
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/29/2008 3:59 PM | Elfs and dwarves are not RPG but a poorly constructed elf and dwarf story can often end up reading like rehashed Tolkien or D&D. Blah.
Plus, there's NOT only elves and dwarves. It always seemed odd to me that elves and dwarves are the most common culprits but other mythic creatures or variations on the elf who is good with a bow seldom appear. Redcaps, kobolds, gnomes, trolls or hudra are forgotten.
It's like the vampire syndrome: no, vampires doesn't such by default (pun intended) but so many have written the same cliched and poorly developed vampire that when you write a vampire story nobody wants to touch it with a ten foot stick. |
| Posted By : Hermit - 4/29/2008 4:23 PM | actually, I typed it incorrectly. Should be fora
because it's a Latin word, and you can't just slap an 's' on it to make the stupid thing plural!
And this is important because it's just that sort of disrespect that led to the elves and dwarves abandoning humanity! Geesh. Don't we ever learn 
|
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/29/2008 5:42 PM |
SilviaMG said...
Redcaps, kobolds, gnomes, trolls or hudra are forgotten.
Not by me.
This literature was, originally at least, an extension of the myths and folktales that contained these beings. It has already been said that Tolkien deliberately took from Northern European lore quite heavily. And how many mythic beasts and beings did Lewis use?
What is sword and sorcery but a modern attempt at telling tales like Beowulf, Roland, the Quest for the Holy Grail, and other adventures?
Without mythic beasts and beings, where the heck is the fantastical aspect of fantasy? It becomes nothing more than historical fiction in a different world. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not what I usually prefer to read (or to write).
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/29/2008 8:43 PM | Would that be a huldra? Huldra was either a beautiful wood nymph or an ugly old Wood Wife. The huldra was hollow from behind and had a long cow-like tail.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : SilviaMG - 4/29/2008 9:52 PM | Yep, a huldra. Typo.
I think I expressed myself incorrectly (it often happens with my second-language issues). I don't think there's anything wrong with mythical creatures. I think we don't see enough trolls and huldras and other mythical creatures. It's elf, elf, elf. Oh, there goes a dwarf. Elf, elf, elf. So many elves.
And it's the same elf. Didn't I meet that elf before? A weird sense of deja vu. Often, it's not so much a modern attempt at telling a story but something I read back in 1975.
By the way, by modern retelling I don't mean plucking an elf and tossing it in modern New York. Voila! It's new! Because I've seen that done and a lot of times it was very stale.
A lot of it leaves me cold. I get no sense of the fantastical with these creatures. Shouldn't I? Shouldn't the elf make me go wow. Now that's cool. Instead of, oh, I think I played that video game! Or I already watched that episode. I would love to read some good, modern takes on old myths. Bring them on. Elves welcome.  |
| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 4/30/2008 2:17 AM | I don't think the mere presence of an elf or a dwarf in a story renders it "too RPG," and editors who think that are jumping to an unwarranted conclusion, in my book.
But I agree with Ty, that if your elves and dwarves are just like everyone else's elves and dwarves, you've got a problem.
And if they start the story sitting in a tavern, you've got a bigger problem.
And if the elves routinely bark at the dwarves, and the dwarves growl back, while they're sitting in a tavern, you've got an even bigger problem.
And if the elvish and dwarvish barking and growling in a tavern is interrupted by a mysterious stranger -- with a cowl hiding his face -- who approaches them to hire them for a dangerous mission because they look like "competent, adventurous folk" ... oh my gosh do you have a problem.
It ain't the dwarves and elves, folks. It's what writers do with them -- or fail to do with them -- that counts.
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 4/30/2008 5:17 AM | IIRC, A huldra featured strongly in Neil Gaiman's novella-length follow-up to "American Gods" (featured in "Legends II but I can't remember the name of the story).
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Hermit - 4/30/2008 9:46 AM | What about half-elves? Is there any myth to back up the idea? I want the science on cross-breeding. Don't think it's probable at all, myself. Good trope though - half-breed vs. self+society+society.
I've grown to loathe the concept of lycanthropes. Seems utterly ridiculous to me. However, I recently line-edited a blazing good story that includes them. They're treated very well - the author hints it and merely makes it intrinsic to the plot. It feels like a commonplace.
I like what Rowling did with the house elves, thought it was both innovative and classical. Okay, truth to tell, I found it interesting but didn't really like it much. I tend to deal with elves along the same lines as angels and demons - sentient beings more balanced to the spirit than the elements and yet elemental in a very tangible way . . .
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : darkbow - 4/30/2008 1:57 PM | Steve, I almost consider your post a challenge. Too bad I don't like writing about elves and dwarves. 
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
|
| Posted By : xiaotien - 4/30/2008 6:20 PM |
MysticWino said...
actually, I typed it incorrectly. Should be fora
because it's a Latin word, and you can't just slap an 's' on it to make the stupid thing plural!
And this is important because it's just that sort of disrespect that led to the elves and dwarves abandoning humanity! Geesh. Don't we ever learn
crystalwizard said...>forums' is technically incorrect, why?
wt?
HAHAHA!
cindy pon
|
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/30/2008 7:11 PM |
MysticWino said...What about half-elves? Is there any myth to back up the idea? I want the science on cross-breeding. Don't think it's probable at all, myself. Good trope though - half-breed vs. self+society+society.
Scientifically, if elves are a different species, then a half-human half-elf hybrid is probably not viable. Even if such a being were to exist, it would probably be sterile (think mules).
Of course, folklore doesn't necessarily follow scientific logic. If we are to consider elves as one of the fairy folk, then yes, there are folkloric precedents for half-elves.
The fair folk were known to steal human babires as well as attractive individuals of both sexes. It is thought that they did this, in part, to revitalize their ranks. An occasional infusion of human blood was often seen as beneficial. Thomas the Rhymer was taken as a lover by the the Queen of Elfland and supposedly lived in Elfland for seven years. Some of the fairy midwife stories involve babes that seem to be a fairy-human cross, since they apparently needed fairy ointment to be given fairy sight. Stories about the selkies often involve their reluctant marriage to mortals who find and hide their seal skin.
Many of these stories also involve a taboo, which is almost invariably broken. Heartache often ensues after the taboo is broken. This is interesting in light of the doom suffered by Beren and Luthien in Tolkien's world.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/30/2008 8:50 PM | MysticWino said...
actually, I typed it incorrectly. Should be fora
because it's a Latin word, and you can't just slap an 's' on it to make the stupid thing plural!
forum is a latin word? |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 5/1/2008 7:55 AM | crystalwizard said...MysticWino said...
actually, I typed it incorrectly. Should be fora
because it's a Latin word, and you can't just slap an 's' on it to make the stupid thing plural!
forum is a latin word?
Are you being facetious?
Just in case you are not: as transliterated into Middle English (ME), yes, forum is a Latin word.
Fora is the "correct" plural. Forums seems perfectly acceptable as well. If I were discussing the central marketplaces in cities of the Roman Empire (or a fictional setting with similar trappings or a society that draws heavily on Latin or ME phrases and words) I would likely use fora to give a feeling of unusualness/difference/"we are not in Kansas".
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction |
| Posted By : Hermit - 5/1/2008 9:24 AM | facetious or not, I was careful to state "technically". But, as we keep discussing, usage trumps "technically correct". And don't get me started on 'agendum' and 'agenda'! 
DAWaverly said...
crystalwizard said...
MysticWino said...
actually, I typed it incorrectly. Should be fora
because it's a Latin word, and you can't just slap an 's' on it to make the stupid thing plural!
forum is a latin word? Are you being facetious? Just in case you are not: as transliterated into Middle English (ME), yes, forum is a Latin word. Fora is the "correct" plural. Forums seems perfectly acceptable as well. If I were discussing the central marketplaces in cities of the Roman Empire (or a fictional setting with similar trappings or a society that draws heavily on Latin or ME phrases and words) I would likely use fora to give a feeling of unusualness/difference/"we are not in Kansas".
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword! Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 5/1/2008 12:48 PM | The "correct" pluralof forum is fora, but forums is becoming ever more acceptable. I get minorly irked when people talk abotu "stadiums" - I still call them stadia, and that terms was in common currency ten or twenty years ago.
Language changes, but I'd rather it didn't change through ignorance, and I fear that's what's behind the loss of any "non-standard" plural. It's surely only a matter of time before children become childs, men become mans, mice become mouses, etc etc...
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Silly Boy - 5/2/2008 10:11 PM |
RHFay said...
MysticWino said...What about half-elves? Is there any myth to back up the idea? I want the science on cross-breeding. Don't think it's probable at all, myself. Good trope though - half-breed vs. self+society+society.
Scientifically, if elves are a different species, then a half-human half-elf hybrid is probably not viable. Even if such a being were to exist, it would probably be sterile (think mules).
Of course, folklore doesn't necessarily follow scientific logic. If we are to consider elves as one of the fairy folk, then yes, there are folkloric precedents for half-elves.
The fair folk were known to steal human babires as well as attractive individuals of both sexes. It is thought that they did this, in part, to revitalize their ranks. An occasional infusion of human blood was often seen as beneficial. Thomas the Rhymer was taken as a lover by the the Queen of Elfland and supposedly lived in Elfland for seven years. Some of the fairy midwife stories involve babes that seem to be a fairy-human cross, since they apparently needed fairy ointment to be given fairy sight. Stories about the selkies often involve their reluctant marriage to mortals who find and hide their seal skin.
Many of these stories also involve a taboo, which is almost invariably broken. Heartache often ensues after the taboo is broken. This is interesting in light of the doom suffered by Beren and Luthien in Tolkien's world.
Or, as Doug Henning would say, "It's maaaaagic!"
Seriously.
Discounting for a moment Clarke and his whole "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” for a moment, when magic enters the picture, the science don't matter, or shouldn't, or doesn't have to... imo, anyway....sigh....ever since I first heard that quote, it has absolutely ruined my take on magic....I go be sad, now
"It's "i" before "e," except after "c," and when sounding like "a" as in "neighbor and "weigh," and on weekends and holidays, and all throughout May, and you'll always be wrong, no matter what you say!"---Brian Regan |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 5/3/2008 8:56 AM | Silly Boy said...Discounting for a moment Clarke and his whole "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” for a moment, when magic enters the picture, the science don't matter, or shouldn't, or doesn't have to... imo, anyway....sigh....ever since I first heard that quote, it has absolutely ruined my take on magic....I go be sad, now VIEW IMAGE
Even "magic" has to have logical reasons (to you, the writer) for what it does and how it does it, and if you dig deeply enough into any of it's effects, you should find yourself describing them in scientific terms. For example, your wizard might be able to make lightning bolts fly through the air, but there's a reason why he can generate that much static electricity and then release it where he wants it to go and not take any damage from it himself. When you sit down and start designing that reason so that it makes sense in your world and so you can write it correctly each time, you're designing the science behind that magical effect. If you don't work out the design of how it works, and figure out how it affects that physical world, then you'll wind up writing inconsistencies. And Clarke was right. |
| Posted By : Rob Mancebo - 5/3/2008 10:30 AM |
crystalwizard said...
"There are yet more norns, namely those who come to every man when he is born, to shape his life, and these are known to be of the race of gods; others, on the other hand, are of the race of elves, and yet others are of the race of dwarfs."
So much for 'too RPG'. - And yet even the ancient writings we have available are not definitive. The Norse didn't write down their mythology or sagas. What we have was collected and written down centuries later. The Celts, the Norse, the American Indians were all oral cultures with powerful orators. All we're left with is their echoes.
- Also, folks from different geographical areas had different stories so some legends tell of Odin being in charge of the gods and others tell of Thor being in charge. Things like that really muddy the waters.
- Generally, Northern peoples saw the Dwarf peoples as the 'small souls' of the world. These could include animals or might turn into animals.
- Light elves were the gods, both of earth and sky.
- Dark elves were the shades of the dead. (Also sometimes also used to describe dwarves.)
- Trolls were completely generic and included any harmful supernatural being.
- Giants were the forces of nature. Stone, storm, and sea were all thought to have a 'giant' that men or gods could strive against.
- Gods(elves), giants, and men were all able to love, battle, and procreate. Thor's greatest son was off his giant-wife 'Iron-knife', Tyr was hopelessly in love with a beautiful giantess, Lokie's son is Fenrir the wolf, and humans are 'the sons of Heimdahl'.
|
| Posted By : Silly Boy - 5/3/2008 12:50 PM |
crystalwizard said...
Silly Boy said...Discounting for a moment Clarke and his whole "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” for a moment, when magic enters the picture, the science don't matter, or shouldn't, or doesn't have to... imo, anyway....sigh....ever since I first heard that quote, it has absolutely ruined my take on magic....I go be sad, now VIEW IMAGE Even "magic" has to have logical reasons (to you, the writer) for what it does and how it does it, and if you dig deeply enough into any of it's effects, you should find yourself describing them in scientific terms. For example, your wizard might be able to make lightning bolts fly through the air, but there's a reason why he can generate that much static electricity and then release it where he wants it to go and not take any damage from it himself. When you sit down and start designing that reason so that it makes sense in your world and so you can write it correctly each time, you're designing the science behind that magical effect. If you don't work out the design of how it works, and figure out how it affects that physical world, then you'll wind up writing inconsistencies. And Clarke was right.
Sorry, I was just being silly...imagine that All good points, and I agree with you 100%, Clarke is right, and I am just a bitter little man.
I should have clarified that why the quote bothered me was my purely personal desire, as a reader, to not associate magic with science. Yes, you can apply the old scientific method to it (and as a writer, should), but as a reader, I wanted to hold onto the wonder, the other-ness of it for a little longer. Now, whenever I read a book with magic in it, there is always a part of me worrying that it will turn out that all that "magic" is actually remnants/results/implementation of some advanced future-human/alien civilization and what I had been thinking of in spiritual/supernatural terms are revealed to be scientific/technological manipulation of natural forces. Thus, the sadness. Maybe I'm missing the point (nothing new there), but as a reader, I want my science to be science, and my magic to be magic.
"It's "i" before "e," except after "c," and when sounding like "a" as in "neighbor and "weigh," and on weekends and holidays, and all throughout May, and you'll always be wrong, no matter what you say!"---Brian Regan |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 5/3/2008 7:21 PM | Silly Boy said...
I should have clarified that why the quote bothered me was my purely personal desire, as a reader, to not associate magic with science. Yes, you can apply the old scientific method to it (and as a writer, should), but as a reader, I wanted to hold onto the wonder, the other-ness of it for a little longer. Now, whenever I read a book with magic in it, there is always a part of me worrying that it will turn out that all that "magic" is actually remnants/results/implementation of some advanced future-human/alien civilization and what I had been thinking of in spiritual/supernatural terms are revealed to be scientific/technological manipulation of natural forces. Thus, the sadness. Maybe I'm missing the point (nothing new there), but as a reader, I want my science to be science, and my magic to be magic.
Ah... that's the same reason I can't watch stage magicians... I know how they do most of the illusions. It's also why I have a hard time with special effects in a movie. I know how it's done so instead of enjoying it, I'm thinking about what technical requirements were necessary to pull it off.
I completely understand. The "wonder" is gone.
Well... may I make a suggestion? I've got a series of books out that you might wind up liking and might put some of that wonder back.
sojourn.omnitech.net |
| Posted By : Silly Boy - 5/4/2008 1:53 AM |
crystalwizard said...
Silly Boy said...
I want my science to be science, and my magic to be magic.
Ah... that's the same reason I can't watch stage magicians... I know how they do most of the illusions.
I actually thought about using the analogy, originally, but then I got lazy...
It's also why I have a hard time with special effects in a movie. I know how it's done so instead of enjoying it, I'm thinking about what technical requirements were necessary to pull it off.
I completely understand. The "wonder" is gone.
Well... may I make a suggestion? I've got a series of books out that you might wind up liking and might put some of that wonder back.
I just want to say, with the utmost repsect and admiration, way to sell the book. The thing I see as a big stumbling block for me (after writing something worth publishing, getting it published, all those pesky little things) is that I have never been a salesman...I've always been the quiet little goof ball in the corner...the one that the nice lady next door always describes as "such a nice, quiet boy," after the unfortunate occurrence. My hat's off to you, and anyone else who is good at it, and when I get some spending money saved up, your series is on my read list...non sequitur:anyone else going broke supporting their favorite authors? My wife isn't allowed in a Staples by herself, and I am not allowed in any bookstore by myself...
"It's "i" before "e," except after "c," and when sounding like "a" as in "neighbor and "weigh," and on weekends and holidays, and all throughout May, and you'll always be wrong, no matter what you say!"---Brian Regan |
| Posted By : Tim - 5/7/2008 5:34 PM | I’ve read a lot of fantasy novels, short stories and RPGs to not turn away from them only because the’re in there. The old RPG ‘Dark Sun’ comes to mind as one of the most original (and playable) worlds dealing with many of the familiar races.
The Nine Princes of Amber comes to mind as one of the best / original ways of dealing with magic.
--Just saying :) |
| Posted By : RoberII - 5/8/2008 10:28 PM | I've always found it interesting how the line between elf, dwarf and troll is very blurred, especially in the case of dark elf. A single being could be described as either a troll or a dark elf or a dwarf, since all three were subterranean creatures. They were not, of course, completely blurred, and each being was distinct, but due to the fact that the eddas and later folklore are our only sources, we do not know that much about each group. There is evidence that indicates that 'elves' were the remnant of a previous religion, just as the aesir.
Furthermore, many of these were lumped together in later Scandinavian folklore, thus leading to Huldras being called both Trollwives and Elfwives. Generally, however, Huldras were strong women with tails, while the more fairy-like elf-maidens had the hollow backs.
Then you have the subterraneans and the nisse and the tomte, most of which are dwarfish creatures. The Nisse was house elf, much like Dobby of Harry Potter fame. The subterranean was the same creature, but cruel - they would abduct children and leave changelings.
All of these are classified as fairies, though. It is interesting to note how their roles change over time. They go from being local deities to forces of nature, and from that to becoming temptresses in christian folklore. Danish folklore is rife with young men and women being taken away, only to suffer the consequences when their fickle fairy lovers abandon them. |
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/9/2008 12:23 AM | Names and characteristics do seem to get a bit mixed up in folklore sometimes. I guess it's the nature of folklore - tales being told over generations.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : jhmcmullen - 5/14/2008 1:50 AM | crystalwizard said...
Even "magic" has to have logical reasons (to you, the writer) for what it does and how it does it, and if you dig deeply enough into any of it's effects, you should find yourself describing them in scientific terms. For example, your wizard might be able to make lightning bolts fly through the air, but there's a reason why he can generate that much static electricity and then release it where he wants it to go and not take any damage from it himself. When you sit down and start designing that reason so that it makes sense in your world and so you can write it correctly each time, you're designing the science behind that magical effect. If you don't work out the design of how it works, and figure out how it affects that physical world, then you'll wind up writing inconsistencies. And Clarke was right.
I agree and disagree. Strongly. :) Clarke said, "Any advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," he did not say, "All magic looks like advanced technology." Different things.
Magic has to have a logic to it--I agree. But often that's not a scientific logic. (You can write wonderful stories using scientific logic with magic; I'm not disagreeing with that.) I think one of the best things that Gaiman has done is bring back a lot of that fairy-tale logic to magic. Sometimes you want lightning bolts and insulation, sometimes you want things done on an overpass, because it's a crossroad where roads don't actually meet.
But I totally agree that there must be a logic to it, or your magic can do anything.
I think it matters, too, whether your story is about Good and Evil--which some kinds of fantasy are, and use dwarves and elves just as ways of elaborating on different takes on Good and Evil, so they take more of the mythic (as someone in this thread already said), or whether it's about something else. In which case, it might not need fae at all.
One of the things that RPGs have done, in fact, is applied some scientific reasoning to make things as they are in Tolkien, but they've missed the point. They do a lot of world-building to support a world that originally didn't need those things. If, for example, Tolkien was doing a myth, and myths consciously exclude religion (I don't know if they do), adding religion makes it not-a-myth, and you probably end up with a lot of elements that work at cross-purposes: Some are mythic, some are scientific. There are bits in D&D that still resonate and some people love them despite these cross-purposes. A nice thing that has come out of the indie boom is that many games have a much narrower focus, so unlike D&D, they don't have to have elements for everyone. Sorcerer is just about the price you pay for power. Exalted is just about kickass power. And so on.
D&D and the D&D novels are a genre unto themselves now, like superhero comics, and they have their own set of defining characteristics. It doesn't matter that some superhero comics adhere to science fiction; does it work as a superhero comic? It doesn't matter that dwarves and elves existed before RPGs; they've become a defining characteristic of RPG stories. And, more unfortunately for us as writers, there is only one real publisher for D&D novels. |
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/14/2008 10:34 AM | Um, I'm confused. How to myths exclude religion? Weren't the ancient Greek myths basically based on their religion at the time? The god interfered with the lives of the heroes all the time. And these gods were deities that the people of the time actually believed in, actually worshiped. These gods actually had shrines and temples dedicated in their honour.
Just because there aren't a whole lot of people today who believe in the Greek gods doesn't mean that there never were, and it in no way suggests that the myths excluded religion. We probably only call them "myths" because there is a lack of belief today. They would more likely be the Bible stories of their day, taken as truth, not myth.
And no religion in Tolkien? Again, I disagree. He created a whole pantheon and creation myth in The Simarillion, and there are hints of this in The Lord of the Rings. Gandalf's resurrection is a religious experience; he comes back transfigured and at first unrecognizable. Just the fact that there were forces at play that would send him back suggests higher powers.
Just because he didn't have his people praying and going to church all the time doesn't mean he excluded religion. I believe it was there, under the surface.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 5/14/2008 12:16 PM | RHFay said...
And no religion in Tolkien? Again, I disagree. He created a whole pantheon and creation myth in The Simarillion, and there are hints of this in The Lord of the Rings. Gandalf's resurrection is a religious experience; he comes back transfigured and at first unrecognizable. Just the fact that there were forces at play that would send him back suggests higher powers.
Just because he didn't have his people praying and going to church all the time doesn't mean he excluded religion. I believe it was there, under the surface.
Tolkien was specifically trying to create a myth for Europe because there wasn't one and he was unhappy about that. After reading through some of the old works (and being fairly familiar with Tolkien's works he never intended to publish such as the Silmarillion) what I found is that Tolkien revised the norse and older beliefs and didn't even change much about most of them. Including the names, then used those as the basis for his mythos and his world. Which is why it's so rich. It's very full of religious belief. The Elves lived in Heaven at one point and crossed the seas to the earth (middle earth). When they go to the greyhavens to leave, they sail back to heaven. The seas were bent by the rebellion in heaven when one of the Valar, Sauron's boss (satan but called by a different name) was cast out into the darkness (abyssed).
The dwarves were created because one of the high powers got impatient with waiting for 'god' to create humans and tried to do it himself. They were allowed to continue to exist, but had to go back to sleep until humans were created.
What you see of Tolkien's world in LotR and Hobbit is a very small glimpse through a foggy window. |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 5/14/2008 1:30 PM | crystalwizard said...
Tolkien was specifically trying to create a myth for Europe because there wasn't one and he was unhappy about that. After reading through some of the old works (and being fairly familiar with Tolkien's works he never intended to publish such as the Silmarillion) what I found is that Tolkien revised the norse and older beliefs and didn't even change much about most of them. Including the names, then used those as the basis for his mythos and his world. Which is why it's so rich. It's very full of religious belief. The Elves lived in Heaven at one point and crossed the seas to the earth (middle earth). When they go to the greyhavens to leave, they sail back to heaven. The seas were bent by the rebellion in heaven when one of the Valar, Sauron's boss (satan but called by a different name) was cast out into the darkness (abyssed).
The dwarves were created because one of the high powers got impatient with waiting for 'god' to create humans and tried to do it himself. They were allowed to continue to exist, but had to go back to sleep until humans were created.
What you see of Tolkien's world in LotR and Hobbit is a very small glimpse through a foggy window.
I reviewed the book, "The Letters of JRR Tolkien" on my blog a while back. I highly recommend that any fan of Tolkien, or his works, read it. There is no better source for the man than his own words...
Ummm... CW, you are repeating urban legend. Tolkien pushed to have the Silmarillion published after The Hobbit had its initial success. His publisher convinced him to write a sequel to The Hobbit, which is what became The Lord of the Rings. When the delays for LotR continued (from 1936-publication) and the publisher asked for updates, Tolkien would bring up publishing the work that eventually became the Silmarillion. He felt it would be quicker to get it out, than it would be to finish the LotR. After the LotR was published he worked on Silmarillion as much as his health and other distractions allowed. He was nearly finished with a publishable manuscript at the time of his death. He FULLY intended it to be published. He was open to the idea of all of his myth being published.
As for the religion part, he kept any reference to organized religion out of his myth. He would not abide anyone referring to Valinor as heaven. Yes, there are very common spiritual themes in his myth, but it is not a simple rehash or Norse or any other myth.
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction arriving 30 May 2008. |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 5/14/2008 2:17 PM | DAWaverly said...
Ummm... CW, you are repeating urban legend.
Um, no I'm not. I'm quoting Christopher. He collected his father's notes and bits and pieces and put out the Silmarillion after Tolkien's death. In fact, his forward in the copy of the Silmarillion that I had, which was one of the very first released, said so.
DAWaverly said...
Tolkien pushed to have the Silmarillion published after The Hobbit had its initial success.
what Tolkien pushed to have published and what wound up BEING published are not the same thing.
DAWaverly said...
As for the religion part, he kept any reference to organized religion out of his myth. He would not abide anyone referring to Valinor as heaven. Yes, there are very common spiritual themes in his myth, but it is not a simple rehash or Norse or any other myth.
I suggest you go read the Elder and Younger Eddas and a number of the old Norse narratives if you really think that's the case. |
| Posted By : jhmcmullen - 5/14/2008 3:22 PM | RHFay said...
Um, I'm confused. How to myths exclude religion?
It was an assertion by someone earlier in the thread. I don't know if it's true, which is why I said:
jhmcmullen said...
and myths consciously exclude religion (I don't know if they do)
It's irrelevant to my claim that what editors decry as "RPG stories" might have elements working at cross-purposes--in other words, they haven't written the best story for a purpose, weeding out things that don't achieve the effect.
(Sometimes the effect is only to create a fresh, ripping adventure tale, which is fine, but take out the extraneous elements.) |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 5/14/2008 10:39 PM | crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
Ummm... CW, you are repeating urban legend. Um, no I'm not. I'm quoting Christopher. He collected his father's notes and bits and pieces and put out the Silmarillion after Tolkien's death. In fact, his forward in the copy of the Silmarillion that I had, which was one of the very first released, said so.
There is no doubt that Christopher polished it up, but the main text was extant before The Hobbit and existed under the name Silmarillion as early as 1945. From The Letters of JRR Tolkien in a letter to Stanley Unwin in March 1945: "Of Course, my only real desireis to publish 'The Silmarillion': which your reader, you may possibly remember, allowed to have a certain beauty, but of a 'Celtic' kind irritating to Anglo-Saxons."
crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
Tolkien pushed to have the Silmarillion published after The Hobbit had its initial success. what Tolkien pushed to have published and what wound up BEING published are not the same thing.
True. Christopher performed the duties of an editor. But it was not in bits and pieces as the above quote from 1945 confirms. A reader at Allen & Unwin read it before 1945. Tolkien worked on it for over 50 years. Twenty-five days before his death JRR had this to say to Lord Halsbury: ..."I begin to feel that I shall never produce any part of The Silmarillion." Halsbury had just visited and Tolkien was very aware that he was diminishing. The many Middle Earth volumes that have followed over the years, from Christopher, do fit what you describe; but not The Silmarillion. AND I am confident that what the Allen & Unwin reader read, and what was published as The Silmarillion are organizationally different; with the latter having been edited to a smaller volume, with much of the original text excised. In my copy of The Silmarillion Christopher states, "I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistent narrative." Christopher felt that the original text with its changes in tone and subtle inconsistencies would "lead to confusion", and he felt compelled to edit, where his father did not. It was not "bits and pieces"; it was a large compilation of narrative in different tones and styles, including poetry, narrative (some stories were repeated as if from different tellers), and philosophical essay.
crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
As for the religion part, he kept any reference to organized religion out of his myth. He would not abide anyone referring to Valinor as heaven. Yes, there are very common spiritual themes in his myth, but it is not a simple rehash or Norse or any other myth. I suggest you go read the Elder and Younger Eddas and a number of the old Norse narratives if you really think that's the case.
I plan to. Tolkien created a myth, and it certainly will "feel" like other myths, just like many Fantasy novels "feel" like Tolkien's work. Not a rehash, just familiar. As an aside: Tolkien always claimed that his "germ" for his myth resided with Finnish myth.
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction arriving 30 May 2008. |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 5/14/2008 11:17 PM | DAWaverly said...
I plan to. Tolkien created a myth, and it certainly will "feel" like other myths, just like many Fantasy novels "feel" like Tolkien's work. Not a rehash, just familiar. As an aside: Tolkien always claimed that his "germ" for his myth resided with Finnish myth.
Devan, Tolkien created nothing. He was a professor with a good background in several subjects. He took what was already there and modified it. That's all. |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 5/15/2008 6:06 AM | crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
I plan to. Tolkien created a myth, and it certainly will "feel" like other myths, just like many Fantasy novels "feel" like Tolkien's work. Not a rehash, just familiar. As an aside: Tolkien always claimed that his "germ" for his myth resided with Finnish myth. Devan, Tolkien created nothing. He was a professor with a good background in several subjects. He took what was already there and modified it. That's all.
Ouch! I disagree. We can leave it at that.
And the name is Deven...
[See Mr. Lapp! You are not the only one whose name is abused!] 
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction arriving 30 May 2008. |
| Posted By : RoberII - 5/19/2008 7:18 PM | crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
I plan to. Tolkien created a myth, and it certainly will "feel" like other myths, just like many Fantasy novels "feel" like Tolkien's work. Not a rehash, just familiar. As an aside: Tolkien always claimed that his "germ" for his myth resided with Finnish myth. Devan, Tolkien created nothing. He was a professor with a good background in several subjects. He took what was already there and modified it. That's all.
But the modifying was the novelty part, as was the focus on human and near-human races. If you take other inklings, they had a tendency to go a bit overboard on the alienness, IE satyrs and fauns, whereas Tolkien kept it to basically human races. There are also several original things in his work that are notable, first and foremost the worldbuilding. There are also several things in his work that have no direct equivalent in norse, celtic or finnish myths to the best of my knowledge.
He didn't whip his creation out of thin air, but to claim that he created 'nothing' is a bit of a stretch. Mind you, I'm not a fan of the guy myself, but you gotta give credit where credit is due :) |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 5/20/2008 5:29 AM |
RHFay said...
Um, I'm confused. How to myths exclude religion? Weren't the ancient Greek myths basically based on their religion at the time? The god interfered with the lives of the heroes all the time. And these gods were deities that the people of the time actually believed in, actually worshiped. These gods actually had shrines and temples dedicated in their honour.
I was the one who said that "myths exclude religion". Your point about Greek myth is certainly a good one. WHat I was trying to indicate emphasise is that there is no indication of worship by any of the peoples in Middle-Earth - there's no church or temple or synagogue or mosque or any equivalent to be found as far as I can remember (I may be slightly wrong regarding the Elves, here, and I'm ready to be corrected if that's the case). That's a very heavy hint that Tolkein isn't writing about a society as a normal human society, but as about actual components of a mythic cycle, who (in a sense) knew they were components in a mythic cycle.
And Crystalwizard - I'm more than passably familiar with the Eddas and the Icelandic Sagas and I have to admit that, names for dwarves apart, I don't think Tolkein took very much from them. Some of the tragic sub-stories within the Silmarillion certainly borrow heavily in structural terms from Njal's Saga and its ilk, but Tolkein's interpertations of both elves and dwarves are very different from the Norse treatment - he gave them a dignity and grandeur that they lack in Norse myth.
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Gray World" - Every Day Fiction (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force #5
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"In This City" - Fantasy Magazine (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/20/2008 2:29 PM | There is the slightest hint of religion in The Lord of the Rings, like Gandalf's resurrection and when Frodo calls out in elven names he's never even really heard before (or something like that - the memory is foggy on the details). It's as if he's calling out an angel's name, or calling on a saint to protect him.
It seems odd that religion is disconnected in the lives of the characters in Middle Earth, when you compare it to the Middle Ages, the so-called "Age of Faith". However, it's not as odd from a modern perspective.
In home school, in European history, we were just recently talking about the decline in the importance of religion in modernized societies. Science began to become religion's rival, and religion ceased to be as important in people's lives as it once was.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : RHFay - 5/20/2008 2:46 PM | Another episode with slight religious connotations - Gandalf's declaration when confronting the Balrog. That seemd to hint at deeper religious beliefs, at some of the religious mythology of Middle Earth.
However, the absense of religious institutions does seem odd. Why no churches or temples?
Would a mid-twentieth century audience have accepted more obvious religious worship, especially of "made-up" gods, in LoTR? I don't think something written 50+ years ago should really be judged by 21st century standards.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
|
| Posted By : jhmcmullen - 5/25/2008 8:13 AM | You know, I've also been wondering where the good dwarf stories are., since you asked.
And just now I realized that there don't have to be any in print. All it takes is enough bad ones in the slush and editors will be prejudiced against them, like Biblical retellings and lady-and-the-tiger endingd. (Although the former did have a heyday in the 1920s and the latter had one example.) |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 5/25/2008 9:56 AM | jhmcmullen said...
You know, I've also been wondering where the good dwarf stories are., since you asked.
I've got a dwarf in my series, but I also can't think of any stories specifically about dwarves.
And while people are submitting the occasional elf story to Flashing Swords, no one's sent any dwarven stories in either. |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 5/25/2008 8:52 PM | jhmcmullen said...
You know, I've also been wondering where the good dwarf stories are., since you asked.
There are some dwarf novels in the Warhammer series. Grudgebearer by Gav Thorpe was pretty good. They recently released Oathbreaker but I haven't read that one.
-- Paul McNamee
My Writings |
| Posted By : Melkor - 8/4/2008 11:08 PM | I knew elves and dwarves came from norse myth already. But Tolkien didn't "steal" it. There's no copyright, legal on moral, on myth.
"By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers:.... For neither do men live nor die in vain" H.G. Wells |
|