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| Posted By : Hazimel - 4/11/2008 3:01 AM | Okay, so at some point in my work-in-progress, I must (try to) write the most epic sword duel ever. I need your help to find and study the best.
Two that come to mind right away are Corwin's duels with his brothers Eric and Benedict from Roger Zelazny's Amber novels, and the final fight of Prince Diarmuid in Kay's Fionavar Tapestry. There is one battle early in the Wheel of Time, Rand's first big sword duel, that I was really gripped by, but Jordan's combat style is too distinctive to copy much.
What am I missing? No movies, just words. Any other reading suggestions for creating exciting sword fights?
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/11/2008 4:09 AM | Eric Van Lustbader...The Ninja.
John Norman had some notable sword fighting scenes in his earlier Gor novels.
The classic being book four: Nomads of Gor. The scene halfway through the story when Kamchak fights the Turian champion...and Kamchak supposedly knowing nothing about sword fighting at all.
Very well described sword duel.
Surely the greatest screen sword fight must be: The Prisoner of Zenda. Stewart Grainger and James Mason.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-F-mnLTg-FU
And: Errol Flynn. Robin Hood.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L10fR31jC1w
Stewart again: Scaramouche.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p2r7hq5Wkrs
Couldn't find :The Master of Ballytrae. With Flynn. But that's a classic also.
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| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 4/11/2008 4:46 AM | Outside fantasy, but read the duel between Lymond and his brother in "The Game Of Kings" by Dorothy Dunnett. Probably the best I've ever read.
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| Posted By : Hazimel - 4/11/2008 11:07 AM |
I was so wrong to say no movies, but then again I had no idea how useful youtube would be. Those are fantastic clips. Thanks!
Check out my story "Cold Snap" in Lords of Justice from Carnifex Press. It's an anthology of kick-ass super hero novellas.
I Dream of Dragons, a writing blog |
| Posted By : Nik - 4/11/2008 11:31 AM | R. A. Salvatore describes sword duels very well. His battles with Artemis Entreri are some of the best I've read. I'd say it's the one area in which Salvatore truly stands out and it helps you ignore Drizzt's constant brooding and the not-so-subtle insertions of political statements.
This is from my experience with the first 10 books or so--I haven't gone beyond those in his series.
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| Posted By : Nik - 4/11/2008 12:15 PM | darkbow said...
What, nomention for Dumas or Sabbatini?
There is now.
EDIT: If you had to recommend one Dumas book, Ty, which would it be?
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| Posted By : Nik - 4/11/2008 12:23 PM | If we're including movies, what did you all think of the Hector-Achilles showdown in the recent version of Troy? I thought that was pretty well done cinematically (though my knowledge of true Greek hand-to-hand combat is not great). And if we're not including movies, just ignore this post. I'll try to think of more authors.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
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| Posted By : Hazimel - 4/11/2008 3:01 PM | 1. Haven't read Dumas in a long time. What do you recommend?
2. Sabbatini? Titles please.
3. I do remember the duels with Artemis Entreri now that you mention them.
4. The film version of Man in the Iron Mask with Guy Pearce had an excellent duel at the end.
5. I'm pretty into the Greeks and now that you mention it, the Hector-Achilles duel was pretty good. Unfortunately Hector was the only interesting person in that film, imo.
Check out my story "Cold Snap" in Lords of Justice from Carnifex Press. It's an anthology of kick-ass super hero novellas.
I Dream of Dragons, a writing blog |
| Posted By : che2000 - 4/11/2008 4:31 PM | My favourite swashbucklers are (in no real order) George MacDonald Fraser's Flashman, Arthur Conan Doyle's Brigadier Gerard and Arturo Perez-Reverte's Captain Alatriste. Of the three it's Perez-Reverte who really gives the reader the flavour of what it must be like to live by the sword and you can practically feel the steel weighing down Alatriste's hip.
On a fantasy level, I've always loved the way that David Gemmell wrote his combat scenes - brisk, efficient and exciting.
Scaramouche has one of the best fight scenes of all time! The scrap between the Kurgan and Connor MacLeod (or for that matter the tower wrecking fight between the Kurgan and Ramirez) is pretty cool an' all.
"That blackguard Flashman, who never speaks to one without a kick or an oath--"
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| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 4/11/2008 5:00 PM | The fight between Douglas Fairbanks Jr. and Douglas Fairbanks Jr. in the Corsican Twins, the marvelous choreography of the fight between Tyrone Power and Basil Rathbone in Zorro.
Raphael Sabatini's best fight scene has to be the fight on empty floor of the tower in St. Martin's Summer.
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| Posted By : Kuroboshii - 4/11/2008 5:02 PM | Not exactly swords, but the knife fights in Frank Herbert's Dune are some of the best I've read. There's also a Star Wars book--Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover--which has possibly the best fight scenes I've ever read. It's a stand-alone, centering around Mace Windu during the Clone Wars, and is worth reading whether you like Star Wars or not. Seriously.
The first Solomon Kane story, "Red Shadows", has an incredible duel scene at the end. You can just flip to it in the Solomon Kane omnibus at the bookstore.
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| Posted By : PaulMc - 4/11/2008 5:11 PM | Kuroboshii said...
The first Solomon Kane story, "Red Shadows", has an incredible duel scene at the end. You can just flip to it in the Solomon Kane omnibus at the bookstore.
Yay! A vote for S. Kane!
I agree. In fact, I would say that Kane really is the only "duelist" among Howard's big five - Solomon Kane, Kull, Cormac Mac Art, Bran Mak Morn and Conan. The others - while capable fighters - don't duel - they kill as expediently as possible.
I would agree that R A Salvatore is good at keeping a sword fight running for pages.
-- Paul McNamee
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| Posted By : James Enge - 4/11/2008 5:57 PM | I seem to remember there's some good fencing in Sabatini's Master-at-Arms and Scaramouche. (No fandangoes!) The fighting scenes in Fraser's Flashman books are always great, but they usually hinge on the "hero" being more cowardly than anyone else (and hence surviving to tell the tale).
Epic swordfights: Aeneas vs. Turnus at the end of Vergil's Aeneid, Ruggiero vs. Rodomonte at the end of of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso. The Homeric hero Diomedes fights a lot of people in books 5 & 6 of the Iliad, but maybe it's more like a killing spree than a series of duels. There's a great if inconclusive duel in book 3 of the Iliad where Paris gets soundly thumped by Menelaus.
Knight fights: there's the story of Balin and Balan in Malory's Morte d'Arthur. And it might not be any use to you, but there's a comic battle between Sir Pellinore and Sir Grummore in White's The Sword and the Stone which is worth reading.
There's a great duel between the Scar Gordon, the hero of Heinlein's Glory Road, and an antagonist referred to simply as the Never Born. It's in the part of the book that doesn't suck. (Heinlein was pretty hit and miss from Stranger... onward, in my view.)
Which reminds me--sort of between books and movies, there are some great swordfights in Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac, but they're (naturally) very stagy. I will not even mention here the Richard Lester Musketeers movies, surely the greatest of film swashbucklers.
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| Posted By : darkbow - 4/12/2008 3:33 AM | Concerning Dumas, my favorite book is "The Three Musketeers." Monte Cristo comes close, as does Twenty Years, but I've always loved "The Three Musketeers" because of its wide take on emotions and humanity in general ... love, hate, anger, joy ... you name it, it's in there someplace ... comedy, tragedy, war, peace ... everything. The movie versions tend to focus on only part of the tale, leaving out much, too much.
And I guess I'm the only person on the planet who can't stand Salvatore's combat scenes. I think the man's a pretty good writer, and I know he gets tons of praise for his fight scenes, but I just don't get it. For one thing, I usually end up lost by the second or third graph because characters are always flipping all over the place and twisting weapons around and whatnot in ways I just find completely unrealistic outside of a magical explanation (such as Bob's Highwayman character).
Second, I just don't think that many fight scenes are going to last that long. In my limited experience, fights are over fairly quick. But, even if a duel or such could last a good long while, not every single combat should be that long.
Guess I'm the only one.
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| Posted By : Rob Santa - 4/12/2008 9:15 AM | I recall a Danny Kaye movie called The Court Jester (?) that included the best swordplay I'd ever seen. If I uncover a link I'll post it.
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Hopelessly Addicted Writer of Speculative Fiction
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| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/12/2008 10:24 AM |
Nik said...If we're including movies, what did you all think of the Hector-Achilles showdown in the recent version of Troy? I thought that was pretty well done cinematically (though my knowledge of true Greek hand-to-hand combat is not great). And if we're not including movies, just ignore this post. I'll try to think of more authors.
Too fanciful for me.
The Zenda sword fights notably lacks any pseudo martial arts magic.
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| Posted By : che2000 - 4/12/2008 1:30 PM | | The Gene Kelly version of The Three Musketeers has some great fight scences - choreographed expertly by Kelly so that they take on an almost balletic grace (not surprisingly).
Oh, the duel between Wesley (as The Man in Black) and Indigo in The Princess Bride is an absolute masterpiece!
Inigo: I admit it, you are better than I am.
Man in black: Then why are you smiling?
Inigo: Because I know something you don't know.
Man in black: And what is that?
Inigo: [switching hands] I am not left-handed!
[Inigo switches to his right hand, and appears to overwhelm the Man in black]
Man in black: You're amazing!
Inigo: I ought to be after twenty years.
Man in black: [struggling to keep Inigo away] There's something I ought to tell you.
Inigo: Tell me!
Man in black: I'm not left-handed either.
[The Man in black switches to his right hand, and performs a few amazing feats. They stop fencing for a brief moment.]
Inigo: [in awe] Who are you?
Man in black: No one of consequence.
Brilliant!!!!
"That blackguard Flashman, who never speaks to one without a kick or an oath--"
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| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 4/12/2008 2:17 PM | Yes, PB's fight was wonderful, choreographed (I think) by Fred Cavens, who worked on some of Flynn's fights.
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Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, April 9
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
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"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, March 30
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" They Are Not What They Seem, Janrae Frank, ed., TBA
"The First Trial of Jermaish the King" Flashing Swords #10, May 2008
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/12/2008 5:13 PM | che2000 said...
Oh, the duel between Wesley (as The Man in Black) and Indigo in The Princess Bride is an absolute masterpiece!
Inigo: I admit it, you are better than I am.
Man in black: Then why are you smiling?
Inigo: Because I know something you don't know.
Man in black: And what is that?
Inigo: [switching hands] I am not left-handed!
[Inigo switches to his right hand, and appears to overwhelm the Man in black]
Man in black: You're amazing!
Inigo: I ought to be after twenty years.
Man in black: [struggling to keep Inigo away] There's something I ought to tell you.
Inigo: Tell me!
Man in black: I'm not left-handed either.
[The Man in black switches to his right hand, and performs a few amazing feats. They stop fencing for a brief moment.]
Inigo: [in awe] Who are you?
Man in black: No one of consequence.
Brilliant!!!!
That one is my favorite fight scene in any movie. Course Princess Bride is a great movie all around. |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 4/12/2008 8:53 PM | The problem with actually taking sword lessons is that suddenly you realize most movies just feature two guys beating at each others' swords, not really fighting as it would be done.
It's far more about choreography than combat in the movies.
Real fighting isn't about hitting the other sword, it's about hitting your opponent and reacting when they block.
-- Paul McNamee
My Writings |
| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 4/12/2008 9:25 PM | Wow! What a thread! Great instigation, Bryan. I've read probably half of these, will have to find and read the other half now. Haven't seen even a third of these flicks, might some day remedy that.
As far as the written word and for what it's worth, I am one of those who thinks that Salvatore's mano-a-mano fights are some of the best ever. In fact, I repeatedly recommend him as the author currently best writing such scenes. There are several who pen awesome multi-individual fights and epic battles, but as far as one-on-one goes, I gotta say Salvatore's the best in my opinion (I can't claim the familiarity Ty does, he's still R.A. Salvatore to me).
~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
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| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 4/15/2008 2:37 AM | Sabatini's "Master-at-Arms" includes some pretty good accounts of fencing from both strategic and tactical standpoints. Stronger, in general, than what you typically find in Dumas (but I love Dumas, I do I do I do ...)
"Adept's Gambit," by Fritz Leiber, has the Mouser going up against a quite formidable foe.
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. |
| Posted By : che2000 - 4/15/2008 10:56 AM | A few other thoughts: there are a few great duels in Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa, a great, sprawling novel set in 17th Japan.
Come to think of it, the swordplay in Kurosawa's Yojimbo (with the great Toshiro Mifune) isn't bad either. Some great stuff, too, in Azumi and the various Zatoichi films (just to continue with the Japanese theme). But the greatest of them, at least in terms of sheer splatter, would have to the the Lone Wolf and Cub movies - you'll believe that a slightly portly man can take on entire armies and leave them in teeny weeny bits.
"That blackguard Flashman, who never speaks to one without a kick or an oath--"
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| Posted By : Jay Stevol - 4/18/2008 4:56 AM | I'm surprised no one's mentioned Rob Roy yet (the film that is). One of the most realistic swordfights ever put to celluloid.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrWpTqVtfrY |
| Posted By : BethS - 4/24/2008 8:16 AM | | All--
I was having trouble posting in this thread (kept getting an error message) until I voted in the poll. Has anyone else in this thread posted without voting?
~Beth
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| Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 4/24/2008 9:16 AM | Yes, the end of Rob Roy had one of the coolest endings to a swordfight ever--and I include samurai films in that.
The ending of forum member Steve Libbey's novel The Bloodbaths has a scene in which a "trick" like the one of that fight is used. |
| Posted By : ckastens - 4/24/2008 12:48 PM | | No one mentioned the Compleat Enchanter series by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt? The protagonist not only spends a lot of time fencing, he also spends a lot of time discussing fencing. He uses modern fencing techniques against older techniques used in the worlds to which he is transported. I can't remember any other books going into so much detail. |
| Posted By : J. Cheney - 4/25/2008 9:05 AM |
PaulMc said...The problem with actually taking sword lessons is that suddenly you realize most movies just feature two guys beating at each others' swords, not really fighting as it would be done. It's far more about choreography than combat in the movies. Real fighting isn't about hitting the other sword, it's about hitting your opponent and reacting when they block.
I have to agree with Paul here. I fence foil and saber, and it's amazing how quickly you tire out. Get your hit and get out of there.... |
| Posted By : ScrewMoonshine - 5/9/2008 12:44 PM | darkbow said...
Concerning Dumas, my favorite book is "The Three Musketeers." Monte Cristo comes close, as does Twenty Years, but I've always loved "The Three Musketeers" because of its wide take on emotions and humanity in general ... love, hate, anger, joy ... you name it, it's in there someplace ... comedy, tragedy, war, peace ... everything.
While Twenty Years After did have some outstanding sword fighting, I'd have to say that the best sword fight I've read in any of Dumas's books is the one at the end of Le Chevalier de Maison Rouge. Extremely intense and credible.
Robert Orme
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| Posted By : Hazimel - 5/9/2008 1:25 PM | Thanks for all the suggestions. My reading list is getting larger and larger.
I finally had to get over the intimidation factor and just write the damn scene. It is far from the greatest sword fight ever written, but that's the way it goes. The process taught me a few things about what I like in a sword fight.
First, the characters matter. One way to make the scene more gripping is to put a likeable hero in a deadly situation. For me, it's all about the characters. With a little bit of dialog, I was able to give the scene an emotional arc beyond just the ringing steel.
Second, use all the senses. It's important, of course, to get the weapons and the moves right, but the sensory experience of the POV character should include enough details to make the reader really get a sense for what the character is experiencing.
I want to add Nathan Meyer's story "The Hand that Holds the Crown" to the list of awesome literary duels. He goes in an interesting direction, giving us the experience of both combatants. So instead of just identifying with one character, we get the experience of both men and the fight is more suspenseful because the reader doesn't really have a 'hero" who will inevitably win. I couldn't really use this because my story has a definite hero, but the physical details and desperation in his story were a big inspiration to just get it written and make it a bloody struggle.
Cheers!
Check out my story "Cold Snap" in Lords of Justice from Carnifex Press. It's an anthology of kick-ass super hero novellas.
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| Posted By : Tim - 5/9/2008 2:44 PM | Hazimel, I know your list is long but I wanted to mention Micheal Moorcock's Elric of Melinbone', when Elric fights his cousin Yrkoons with Stormbringer and Mournblade. Its what got me started reading all those years ago. R.A. Salvator is currently the best in fight scenes, although it does get long in the tooth.
Movie wise, come on people, Anikin vs Obie in Revenge of the Sith. Even if your not a Star Wars fan ... it was great
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| Posted By : Hazimel - 5/9/2008 2:59 PM | Blood Samurai said...
Movie wise, come on people, Anikin vs Obie in Revenge of the Sith. Even if your not a Star Wars fan ... it was great
That was a good one, but my favorite saber duel is Obi Wan and Qui Gon Jin v. The Maul. I only wish it wasn't hacked up with the other battles so much. "Duel of the Fates" is an epic piece of movie music, too.
Check out my story "Cold Snap" in Lords of Justice from Carnifex Press. It's an anthology of kick-ass super hero novellas.
I Dream of Dragons, a writing blog |
| Posted By : Charles Gramlich - 5/10/2008 5:29 PM | There's some good one on one fighting in "The Swords of Night and DAy" by Gemmell. I love a good sword fight myself and worked hard on the ones in my Taleran novels. I thought a couple of those were pretty good if I do say so myself.
Charles Gramlich
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| Posted By : Steve Libbey - 6/2/2008 12:05 PM | H.P. Lovesauce said...
Yes, the end of Rob Roy had one of the coolest endings to a swordfight ever--and I include samurai films in that.
The ending of forum member Steve Libbey's novel The Bloodbaths has a scene in which a "trick" like the one of that fight is used.
Whoa! Google Blush! I just found this. Wow!
What I found compelling about writing Crixus' fight scenes was that he is not a warrior, though he does have enough physical strength to succeed in a fight where finesse is not required. One realizes that those familiar with physical confrontation operate on a different level of perception, where the fear of being hurt doesn't distract them from assessing the situation and reacting. Those unfamiliar (myself) find themselves wondering "wow, I didn't even see that coming!" while we massage our bruised jaws.
So I guess what I have to add is that establishing the stakes of the fight and the obstacles to overcome. The more of each, the scarier the fight.
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| Posted By : von Darkmoor - 6/2/2008 3:15 PM | cool way of analysis, Steve - spot on, too, if I may say so.
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz?
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| Posted By : Lane - 8/9/2008 7:46 PM | Some missing ones from the list: Elric and Yyrkoon in Elric of Melniboné, Elric and just about anyone else in the series (the soul-sucking sword makes it cooler), any number of duels fought in George Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series.
Lian Herne also has some good swordfights in her Tales of the Otori novels, though as someone has said, what makes for good swashbuckling has little to do with real swordplay. Takashi Matsuoka has a good description of real Japanese swordplay in his novel Cloud of Sparrows.
-L. |
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