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| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/26/2008 5:28 PM | I am in a quandary.
One of my characters engages in a bit of arson, pouring oil down the wooden wall of an Inn. Since fuel oils are pretty much out of the question, what would his choice be for starting a suitably fast moving fire?
It would have to be an oil readily available in your average medieval inn. Animal fat is on the top of my list, but it congeals when cool, and my character would have to heat it in order to pour it.
Suggestions?
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/26/2008 5:35 PM | olive oil burns. Most cooking oils burn. The wood will catch faster than the oil, though. Have him wad up some cloth, stuff it under a corner of the inn or something and catch the cloth on fire. Don't have him SOAK the cloth though or the fire won't catch well.
To experiment, go to the lumber store, get some cheap wood similar to what your inn is made of, get an old t-shirt, take a small bottle of cooking oil and go out into the back yard. clear a spot of dirt, use a fire pit, drag out the bar-b-que or use some bricks to make a safe spot to light fires and spend a while using up kitchen matches on oil soaked and non-oil soaked cloth and wood.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
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| Posted By : Greybeard - 4/26/2008 5:37 PM | Olive oil comes to mind.
Cod liver oil?
Edwin |
| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/26/2008 7:58 PM | I looked up olive oil earlier, but it seemed to be a rather safe lamp oil. I need something volatile.
Hmm. Ale is flammable, isn't it?
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/26/2008 8:06 PM | Anything alcoholic is flammable, but you'd have to soak the wood with it to get the effect you want
What you are really looking for is an old inn with dry-rot and termites so that the wood itself is going to catch easy. You're not going to get a realistic scene out of pouring any liquid down the wall and setting it on fire. you need cloth on the wall to catch and hold the flames till the wood has a chance to catch.
You could also have some tall grass growing around the inn in the back, where your character can start a fire.
Seriously, go make a few small bonfires in the backyard and see how well various things catch on fire.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
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| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/26/2008 9:01 PM | As much as I love playing with fire  , the wind is too high today to be safe for anything like that. Though the pyromaniac in me would love a chance to play Myth Buster. Brings back memories of my cousin and I having flaming sword (sticks) duels while burning trash for our Grandmother. Ahh, we were fun kids.
Actually I was thinking of the ale for a distraction, like spilling it on the floor of an already burning building to add to the confusion.
Working on an incredibly risky and reckless rescue.
My original problem was that fire burns up, not down, unless it has an accelerant to follow, and my character starts the fire on an upper floor. The tip off that he was up there was going to be the oil dripping down the wall, right before it burst into flame, but that is not going to work, so I have to rethink it.
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/26/2008 9:17 PM | T A Markitan said...
Actually I was thinking of the ale for a distraction, like spilling it on the floor of an already burning building to add to the confusion.
Working on an incredibly risky and reckless rescue.
if the building is burning, no one's going to notice the ale on the floor. Or the oil, either.
T A Markitan said...
My original problem was that fire burns up, not down, unless it has an accelerant to follow, and my character starts the fire on an upper floor. The tip off that he was up there was going to be the oil dripping down the wall, right before it burst into flame, but that is not going to work, so I have to rethink it.
I suggest you have him go upstairs, light the curtains on fire (to draw attention to the upper floor), sneak downstairs (climb out the window or whatever) and set a second fire. In the back of the inn. Where he can't be seen. So everyone'll run upstairs to put the fire out and be trapped when the bottom floor catches on fire.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
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| Posted By : UnclePete - 4/26/2008 10:56 PM | That'd be pretty high-octane ale. Liquors, yes, ale...would be more likely to put your fire out.
Olive oil needs to get very hot before it'll catch (on its own I mean), and it would be very smoky at that point, too.
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| Posted By : Rob Santa - 4/27/2008 12:47 AM | How about setting ther stuffing in the mattress on fire? It's going to be either straw or down.
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Hopelessly Addicted Writer of Speculative Fiction
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| Posted By : Firlefanz - 4/27/2008 3:31 AM | Pitch and tar were available, yes, and used to insulate and waterproof wooden buildings. It also might have been possible to stuff rags into seams where the pitch would catch fire and light those from a torch. Slow method, but it would work. I've seen people make pitch out of birch bark, and there's always the danger it'll burn rather than end up as usable pitch.
Ale, beer and even plain wine definitely don't burn, you'd need something distilled for that, with an alcohol content of at least 50%. (Ever tried to get rum burning for Feuerzangenbowle... well, you don't have that, I suppose.) Basically, even 50% rum only catches fire because the suger serves as catalyst before it melts.
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| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/27/2008 5:32 PM | I am kind of trouble shooting out loud here, so if you want to punch holes in my logic, go for it. 
I am scraping the wall bursting into flames idea. It didn't work for what I was thinking of. New plan.
Problem- There are twelve antagonists on first floor and two hostages. The hostages are capable of taking care of themselves once they get the cue for escape, but my guy still has to pull off a little divide and conquer.
He guts and puts a mattress up against the wall, and dips some of the stuffing in tallow (like a wick), to be sure it doesn't go out. Discards container of lard nearby after lighting the wicks, and has a small window of time before things fully go up.
Heat from the burning mattress melts remaining fat. Flames go up, grease goes down.
Some poor sap, or two, goes up to investigate the unidentifiable dripping substance.
Now we are down to ten antagonists, but it is much too hot to stay upstairs.
Complication- Innocent bystander on upper floor he doesn't know about. (Yeah, I know it's cliche, but it really ticks of his newly liberated, and still outnumbered, buddies engaged in a running battle out the door)
Sound plausible so far?
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 4/27/2008 7:01 PM | If mattress is stuffed with straw or other highly flammable substance, then there no need for a wick. And if you have ever watched a pile of straw burn you will know that the window of time before it really flames up is very short. Using the heat from the mattress to ignite a substance with a lower ignition temp is as good an idea as any.
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/27/2008 7:38 PM | Why must you have a dripping substance running down the wall? Isn't the smell of smoke enough to alert them that they need to go investigate? If not, then have him bang on pipes or make other odd noises.
My understanding is that you have him in a room directly above where the hostages are.
there happens to be a floor between them.
That floor is solidly attached to the wall
stuff isn't going to run down that wall until it manages to find a crack and seep through it.
The building is going to be full of smoke and burned to the ground long before that happens.
Also, be aware that depending on your environmental conditions, mattress stuffing might be too soggy to light well.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
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| Posted By : darkbow - 4/27/2008 8:20 PM | And then there's always magic. If it's available to your character.
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
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| Posted By : Dungeoneer - 4/27/2008 8:28 PM | | Magic is good too, but not always necessary. If the story takes place in a fantasy world with lots of weird and fantastic creatures you could make up your own oil that was composed of....firedrake blood or something. Then it could conveniently have whatever properties you wanted it to. You want it run like water and burst into flame like gasoline? No problem! ...Although you might need a plausable excuse for why it was there in the first place. Then again, maybe you wouldn't. Depends on context, I guess. And what your editor is willing to let you get away with. :)
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| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/27/2008 8:53 PM | crystalwizard said...
Why must you have a dripping substance running down the wall?
Because the idea for this scene was so clear in my head I had to figure out a way to realize it.  (Sorry, rough draft.)
“Is it raining?” The soldier’s casual question seemed out of place in the tension of the room.
“No it’s not raining!” Cullin glared at the man, and nodded toward the window. Shadowy clouds drifted in the sky, partially covering the half moon.
“Then what’s leaking?” The soldier walked closer to the outer wall, looking up at the ceiling. Something dripped through the cracks, and ran down the wall.
“Leaking?” Cullin turned his attention to the wall. He approached the soldier and followed his upward gaze with a puzzled expression. “Maybe the wench spilled a chamber pot.”
“Well I ain’t touchin it to find out.”
There is also already a fire in the main floor hearth, and I figured the smell of smoke in a smoky old inn wouldn't be immediately out of place.
As for magic, this particular character doesn't use it.
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/28/2008 1:47 AM | T A Markitan said...crystalwizard said...
Why must you have a dripping substance running down the wall? Because the idea for this scene was so clear in my head I had to figure out a way to realize it. (Sorry, rough draft.) “Is it raining?” The soldier’s casual question seemed out of place in the tension of the room. “No it’s not raining!” Cullin glared at the man, and nodded toward the window. Shadowy clouds drifted in the sky, partially covering the half moon. “Then what’s leaking?” The soldier walked closer to the outer wall, looking up at the ceiling. Something dripped through the cracks, and ran down the wall. “Leaking?” Cullin turned his attention to the wall. He approached the soldier and followed his upward gaze with a puzzled expression. “Maybe the wench spilled a chamber pot.” “Well I ain’t touchin it to find out.” There is also already a fire in the main floor hearth, and I figured the smell of smoke in a smoky old inn wouldn't be immediately out of place. As for magic, this particular character doesn't use it.
The only way you're going to get stuff to run down that wall from the room upstairs is if that inn is built very poorly and the floor has large cracks where it meets the wall.
Otherwise, whatever the character pours on the wall/floor of the upstairs room is going to puddle up there. Even if it was sheetrock and you flooded the floor it would puddle, but inns aren't sheetrock, they're wood.
If that's the case, then make sure you describe the inn in that sort of condition in other places besides just that one room, or your editor is going to be saying 'that's too much of a coincidence that the only crack is right where he needs it to pour stuff down the wall'
Since all you want is a distraction, you don't need the stuff running down the wall to have anything to do with the fire.
Have him actually knock the chamber pot over as he goes about setting the fire, and have it spill into a crack in the floor, seep out and run down the wall.
make SURE you devote a couple of sentences to what the liquid from the pot is doing after he knocks the thing over and before the people downstairs see it. |
| Posted By : MysticWino - 4/28/2008 11:45 AM | |
I'm inclined to disagree with CW here. Even well-sealed walls can tend to drip; only magic needed is gravity. Old inns weren't built for seals within, so I wouldn't expect them to be leakproof at all. Dust and liquids always find a way downhill. Perhaps a good compromise here would be to state clearly that the walls are rough plank walls - perhaps even hewn logs.
I agree that the smell would not necessarily register in an inn heated by log fires. Or even prairie-chip heating. However, I would be dubious about straw because it holds moisture all too well and smokes something fierce unless it is bonedry. Could use flax fiber and hemp for the stuffing. Even cotton might do. Also, if there is a lamp that uses tallow, the smell of burning tallow would be too common to register. Visible smoke would register before the smoke from an accelerated fire - as long as the accelerant gets hot enough first. One way to manage that would be to slather the wall in tallow from one lamp while using another, or a candle, to heat either more tallow or oil or grease and leave the room. The heated tallow would melt until it hit flashpoint and then burst into flame. If you have enough space in the container without a vent, the flashpoint would blow up the container (clay) and spray burning oil onto the walls, which would catch the tallow - which would also be warmed from the ambient heat building in the room from the fire source. If you don't cork the clay pot to build pressure (you want some pressure, but don't want to seal it completely), its explosion would be rather minor; it would be a big whoosh of flame and the tinkle of broken clay - little more than the sound of a dropped clay lamp.
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/28/2008 11:52 AM | MysticWino said...
I'm inclined to disagree with CW here. Even well-sealed walls can tend to drip; only magic needed is gravity. Old inns weren't built for seals within, so I wouldn't expect them to be leakproof at all. Dust and liquids always find a way downhill. Perhaps a good compromise here would be to state clearly that the walls are rough plank walls - perhaps even hewn logs.
Not as rapidly as she wants to have them drip, they don't. She wants to have the character pour liquid on the wall and have that liquid running, not dripping, down the wall in the room below before the fire's hardly even caught. |
| Posted By : Jack Windsword - 4/28/2008 11:54 AM | Just throwing in my two cents (depreciated by recession)
CW brings up a good point about the sturdiness of the building, but that doesn't mean you can't break the sucker. Maybe a previous fight (I'm seein' a really big dude with a really big double bladed ax) splinters the floor near the wall.
And as for the oil dripping down, I see what you're getting at, it would be a neat idea to have them notice a drip. But why does it have to be oil? Could someone have tipped a mop bucket or maybe hero slew a sentinel in the room and his blood is dripping down?
It sounds like a cool scene to me (but beware. I am a noob.) so I'd hate to see you scrap it. Hope this helps.
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| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/28/2008 1:34 PM | Oops, I meant to ditch the running down the wall with the first idea. That and I was thinking of runny like an egg, rather than runny like water.
I am picturing an old poor country inn similar in construction to our old horse barn. Rough lumber on the outside, heavy plank floor/ceiling.
Kind of like this, only minus the tin roof and concrete foundation. (pay no mind to the idiot in the rain gear, it's the only picture I had)
img228.imageshack.us/img228/1998/barnnk2.jpg
img76.imageshack.us/img76/5105/barndooryw0.jpg
A lot of my summer afternoons were spent up in the loft, and I remember how solid the building was. There were no gaps in the outer walls because the wood overlaid, but anything spilled on the floor of the loft would leak between the planks. When a thunderstorm rolled in, the walls would shiver and dust would fall down through the cracks, and seem to come out of the walls.
I was sticking with the oil/accelerant because I wanted to further show that he was trying to control the fire to some extent, and also it gives him away a bit sooner than he had hoped. Of course like most well laid plans, they rarely go the way you want them to. So something else is going to have to go wrong, and create an additional complication for him to deal with. Either the fire is going to spread faster than he expected, or take longer.
Right now I am still running through the various scenarios trying to figure out which one I like best so I can write the ending.
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
| Posted By : C.L. - 4/28/2008 2:25 PM | I can see the old, roughly built floor working except old wood absorbs stuff like crazy.
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| Posted By : MysticWino - 4/28/2008 2:38 PM | | Unless, of course, they cure the wood or treat it with something like tallow to keep it from dryrot, etc.
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| Posted By : C.L. - 4/28/2008 6:05 PM | True.
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| Posted By : MysticWino - 4/28/2008 6:23 PM |
T A Markitan said...Oops, I meant to ditch the running down the wall with the first idea. That and I was thinking of runny like an egg, rather than runny like water. I am picturing an old poor country inn similar in construction to our old horse barn. Rough lumber on the outside, heavy plank floor/ceiling. Kind of like this, only minus the tin roof and concrete foundation. (pay no mind to the idiot in the rain gear, it's the only picture I had) img228.imageshack.us/img228/1998/barnnk2.jpgimg76.imageshack.us/img76/5105/barndooryw0.jpg Pretty much what I pictured. It's obvious that the proprietor of this inn runs a rat-free establishment, too! Good thing. Especially when you get fire in the spaces where rats like to nest and breed . . . Very distracting to have rats jump on you from a burning floor above - or flee into the common room!
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| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/28/2008 7:27 PM | Rats! Of course rats! I forgot the rats.
*scurries off to scribble "don't forget the rats" on a sticky note*
I do horrible things to punctuation.
"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing |
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