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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/1/2008 3:37 PM | | I believe that short fiction is too tight a market to publish the same kind of story over and over.
I mean, "barbarian fights monster"? We've all read that story before. Why do we have to read it again?
The constant repeat of story tropes is part of the reason that S&S has a bad name in the literary community. I mean, we have some great authors--surely they can come up with some original material? I can be done even in very well trod ground (note Mike Turner's werewolf story in EDF).
What do you guys think?
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : nathan - 4/1/2008 3:46 PM | I would guess it depends on far you want to take that concept. I mean my start point in a discussion like this would never be "because I'm worried what the literary community thinks" so we're not right at the same "gut" place off the bat.
Here's my basic positions in short thought bullets:
Genre doesn't need to apologize for being genre. When someone wants to read a good western/mystery/thriller/romance they don't do so thinking about how it was precieved by a Harold Bloom.
If you break too many trophes you're now writing something else. Don't fool the fans of one thing by writing another and calling it that first thing so that lit-crits will praise you.
That when I pick up a genre story/antho/novel I did so to read that. Therefor while groundbreaking might be cool (or not) I'm more concerned with the author exercising a command of the Elements of Fiction within my chosen form of entertainment than how "ground breaking" the story is.
I think the entire groundbreaking concept can become a wil-'o-wisp with authors chasing original genre bending (or worse 'transsending' an arrogant term) concepts when 99% of them would be better off honing their craft on the basic fundamental Elements Of Fiction.
[note: broke that up for ease, not to use a 'terse' voice or something. You'll also note I'm a hack by vocation so maybe I'm defensive, lol]
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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/1/2008 3:52 PM | nathan,
Now you're getting all sensitive. Don't worry about if you've offended me or not. I don't get offended unless someone gets personal.
I never said that genre needs to apologize for being genre, nor does it have to do any transcending. All I'm saying is that there's room in S&S for originality. I mean, how rigid is the definition? From what I've heard, it's just that the protagonist should be an every day person and that magic should be either bad or poorly understood, and that it should have a fantasy setting. I mean, that's a WIDE OPEN definition.
Why the heck are we still seeing Howard knockoffs? I mean, he covered that ground an he did it >very< well. I don't mind reading another barbarian piece, but put a new spin on it at least. I read for "sense of wonder", and that's tough to trigger if it's the same old schlock.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 4/1/2008 4:00 PM | I certainly think a dose of originality is a good thing, and the better writers aim for that. That originality might come in the form of a different take on characterization, or in an injection of humor, or a dose of literary insight toward the human condition. Setting and world-building probably is the most fertile mine for originality.
I'm not claiming any great degree of success here, but I do strive to avoid writing the same piece repeatedly. Mostly, I use character in my attempts to achieve that. I try to make my characters vivid enough, and complete enough, that they drive the story. So, for instance, a story in which Calthus finds himself hunted by a giant boogie-thing would turn out vastly different from a story that starts with the same setting and the same monster, but with Spider John or one of the Faceless Sons as a protagonist. (Indeed, it's a standard exercise for me to take a completed story and then imagine how it might shape up with a different protagonist -- now and then I find the new angle worth pursuing, and the new story ends up so incredibly different from the first I doubt anynone but me would see the connection.)
I think another way to make the traditional monster tale more than just a monster tale is to put the emphasis on the reasons for the monster encounter in the first place. Is the protagonist's own personality driving him toward a foolish encounter? Or is she caught up in circumstances beyond her control? Does she learn anything important from the encounter? IS the monster just a big scary thing, or does it derive from something more solid, more illustrative of something Deep and Important? Symbolism counts, I think. And maybe the monster isn't really so monstrous -- maybe the "monster" is the king or the mindset or the circumstances that placed Heroic Guy or Gal within reach of that Dread Thing to begin with.
I think there is lots of room to play with all kinds of ideas within heroic fantasy. I think a number of stories I've seen in slush or crit groups over the years fall flat because they DON'T play with ideas or focus on what leads to the monster encounter. And I also think many a reader coming to heroic fantasy for the first time, or who only rarely reads such a story, misses out the merits of a good story because he or she just dismisses it as "another monster tale."
I'd recommend the "Swords Against Darkness" anthologies edited by Andrew J. Offutt back in the 1970's as pretty good example of how much variety of theme, etc., can be achieved in a book full of monster tales.
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. |
| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 4/1/2008 4:01 PM | I am not certain that the story must break new ground, but it most certainly must have some sort of freshness to it--- forex the (title escapes me) wiki history take on assasinating Hitler story that everyone is raving about. A creaky, ancient trope that was given a face lift and a slap on the butt becomes one of the most talked about stories so far this year.
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/1/2008 4:08 PM | That was "wikihistory" published by Apex & Abyss.
Steve pretty much covered it for me. I think that's why character driven fiction has become so popular. The focus in those piece focused on people (of which there's an infinite variety), rather than on ideas (which are becoming harder to mine after 100 years of genre).
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Lyn - 4/1/2008 4:14 PM | That is the title, actually - "Wikihistory" by Desmond Warzel.
www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html
And I think the popularity of the story (I found it funny and creative)
proves the point - people enjoy a different take on a common theme.
So is it 'ground breaking'? Probably not, but this particular example
is a fresh tilling, imo. I agree with Nathan that the elements of fiction
should come first (if I'm reading him correctly) and the creativity will
follow. And like Steve, I think bettering writers aim for both.
Lyn from Residential Aliens
Purchase ResAliens Anthology |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/1/2008 4:15 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...nathan, Now you're getting all sensitive. Don't worry about if you've offended me or not. I don't get offended unless someone gets personal. I never said that genre needs to apologize for being genre, nor does it have to do any transcending. All I'm saying is that there's room in S&S for originality. I mean, how rigid is the definition? From what I've heard, it's just that the protagonist should be an every day person and that magic should be either bad or poorly understood, and that it should have a fantasy setting. I mean, that's a WIDE OPEN definition. Why the heck are we still seeing Howard knockoffs? I mean, he covered that ground an he did it >very< well. I don't mind reading another barbarian piece, but put a new spin on it at least. I read for "sense of wonder", and that's tough to trigger if it's the same old schlock.
No you didn't say that--I am using your thought to get a little meta-post, wrapping in the role of reviews and what exactly it is we're calling for.
For example often when the discussion of this nature starts there are some default positions people reboot to begin the discussion. I often find I'm not arguing/discussing genres and their trophes so much as bad writing.
Also I think there is a difference between innovation and groundbreaking and original as goals. For example a reviewer praising innovation is one thing, but bemoaning a lack of groundbreaking originality in a clear genre story is something else--for example.
To the flip side of tropes being lumped into = bad writing is IMO Gobble's examples of his own writing where good writing = original. What he described in his post is solid, good advice and smart insight. But mainly it's just the strong use of the Element of Fiction "Character"--its not groundbreaking or trophe busting to write a strong character. Its just good writing--if you see what I mean.
Also, perhaps most important I tend to try and look at these things from a reader point. Romance novel after romance novel, western novel after western novel, mystery novel after mystery novel can be eagerly consumed by people spending money to get your work and for the most part the idea of "groundbreaking" = good in any sort of exclusive way never occurs to them.
I think we maybe coming from slightly left of center positions on this. I'm at the root not saying groundbreaking is bad--only that it is unneccessary for a story to be so to be "good" and that if your command of the Elements of Fiction (7 right? I'll check) then your story doesn't even need to be fresh to be "good" or, more importantly, lol, commerically viable.
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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/1/2008 4:21 PM | My personal viewpoint - I think comments about "a new twist on genre tropes" are becoming old news. Doesn't it just become yet another type of "standard"?
At this point, a return to "standard genre tropes" might be a refreshing change from all the twists out there.
Maybe I just haven't read enough to become jaded in my views toward "standard genre tropes".
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/1/2008 4:28 PM |
nathan said...
What he described in his post is solid, good advice and smart insight. But mainly it's just the strong use of the Element of Fiction "Character"--its not groundbreaking or trophe busting to write a strong character. Its just good writing--if you see what I mean. Nathan,
Well I mentioned Character, but I could just as easily have said "World building". Truly original worlds are also awesome, but hard to manage in the restrictive word counts in short fiction, nevertheless for good examples of great world building, check out most of the stories in Clarkesworld.
One of the problems with S&S is that often stories are simply a slight variation of Plot with nothing new in the other Elements. Why not try for something new in EVERY element?
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Lyn - 4/1/2008 4:30 PM | Okay, just to clarify, then... What are the 'standard' tropes for Sword & Sorcery? According to someone at Wiki, "literary tropes may refer to characters (e.g. the noble savage), plot (the clever prison break), or setting (the haunted castle)." Jordan mentioned a plot trope - barbarian fights monster - what are some others?
Lyn from Residential Aliens
Purchase ResAliens Anthology |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/1/2008 4:44 PM | Depends on far on the continuum of new you mean by new. If your goal is to write within a genre or subgenre then write within a subgenre if you're tired of that genre then write something else. (I don't mean that as mandate, just as a ?)
Genres by their nature have limitations. Limitations don't = bad but they do = boundary. If change too much its not *that* anymore.
For S&S and for Horror there are only so many "core" plots. You can be innovative within those plots--and should try. But if when you're done what you wrote was a psychological suspense thriller then why bother to call it a horror novel? For instance only.
Drawing a strong character is always but always a good idea. Trying to cram a character that is trophe busting may make for good reading--but it may not be *that genre* reading anymore.
You can not take the plot for vanity of the bonfires and populate it in a low fantasy world with tribal warriors and call it S&S. It might be an awesome book it might transend genres--but it is no longer a strong story within that genre. Why try to make it that genre?
Also archtypes can be innovative but if you break them you're writing something else. Elric is sometimes hailed as an anti-Conan. True. Sort of. There Moorcock was *innovative* but not, once you scratch the surface, trophe breaking original. Why not? Because Elric no matter how he got where he is, is at his base a man of violent action. Now Ghandi in the same stories? That's original. It also, I argue wouldn't be S&S.
Let me be clear. My position is only that good writing doesn't have be "new" to be good. Genres, like Joseph Campell's Hero With A 1000 Faces stick with us.
I think a fan of S&S genre look at a "violent man of action" vs. monster format the same way a mystery fan looks at a "shrewd protag discovers corpse" format.
That is it isn't trite, tired, cliche, old hat or anything other than why they picked up a book with the genre stamped on the spine in the first place.
Which doesn't mean you can't like or want to read other stories. Only that genre stories strive to be good within their chosen genre and should be judged on that criteria rather than others.
If that makes sense.
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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/1/2008 4:47 PM |
Lyn said...
Okay, just to clarify, then... What are the 'standard' tropes for Sword & Sorcery? According to someone at Wiki, "literary tropes may refer to characters (e.g. the noble savage), plot (the clever prison break), or setting (the haunted castle)." Jordan mentioned a plot trope - barbarian fights monster - what are some others? Lyn you should cruise down to M Eharts author thread and click on "A Place For Me To Blather" as we've been chasing this one for weeks.
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/1/2008 4:47 PM |
RHFay said...My personal viewpoint - I think comments about "a new twist on genre tropes" are becoming old news. Doesn't it just become yet another type of "standard"? At this point, a return to "standard genre tropes" might be a refreshing change from all the twists out there. Maybe I just haven't read enough to become jaded in my views toward "standard genre tropes".
I wrote a little pithy remark about this that I've since deleted.
Please clarify what you mean? If something is new, it cannot be standard....
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : erazmus - 4/1/2008 4:51 PM | Firstly, originality is highly over rated. Louis L'Amour had several hundred books out, all of them highly enjoyable, all of them more-or-less successful, all of them with almost the exact same plot, pace and setting. But he was a master storyteller, and every one of his stories was effective and entertaining reading. The same could be said for any number of currently working authors. Its usually not as extreme but they end up telling the same basic story over and over, and if they tell it well enough they get little complaint from their readers, who obviously enjoy that story. A lot.
There is nothing I enjoy more than curling up with a well told "Barbarian fights Monster" tale. It doesn't have to surprise me or have some new twist, I've read enough that its likely there are no "twists" I haven't seen. So long as the writer know his buisness and does a good job with the telling, I'm satisfied.
But S&S isn't just Barbarian Fights Monster. Its also "sneak-thief gets caught up in greater events but comes out okay" and "Man with a destiny gets one step closer and learns something". Plus the not to be forgotten "heroic buddies fall into a world of shit but manage to fight/trick their way out of it". Not to mention the occasional "Young/inexperienced mage finds that magic has its price".
It doesn't end there, heck it has barely started there. "Librarian helps city guard foil plot against City government by evil wizard". "Desperate Nobel underestimates Street urchin and gets killed" is a favorite of mine. As is "Experienced Warrior helps an old friend out of a serious jam" and "Village Elder sacrifices her life to teach her people the error of their ways". Not to mention "Rag-tag team of adventurers accidnetally pick a fight with the wrong people".
Never mind that all of those plots/themes have been "done to death". There is no bottom to the well of entertainment; people come and draw on it and if they are entertained, they are pleased. The perception that one must offer something that is New! Exciting! Bold! Vibrant! is so much laundry detergent. (I still use Ivory flakes and twenty mule team borax, by the way.) A story doesn't have to be original to an expert in the field, just well done and fresh to the average reader.
One of the problems short fiction venues are having is that they can't attract enough "average" readers, they only get read by experts, and there just aren't enough of them to go around. I love it when someone send me a stunningly original take on S&S to consider for F-S, but it doesn't happen often and I don't think we could fill the magazine with such tales if we got ten times as many. Thankfully what we need, and is probably better in the long run for most of what we offer, is well written, well told tales that center right around what we think of as S&S. A well paced, tightly written story that grips the reader and drags him along through an adventure, never letting go even after its done isn't exactly common stuff. Its a little much to ask all that (and we do!) and want a completely original take as well. Though if you have one, great! Chances are though, that Howard or Smith or Kuttner or Lieber or John Jakes or Sprague DeCamp or Jack Vance or Andrew Offutt or Robert Asprin or _someone_ has worked on it before, and chances are someone will again. Don't let that stop you writing a well-crafted tale.
I'd say more, but I'm late to work.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
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"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/1/2008 4:54 PM | Slipstream and cross-genre became hot buzz words for awhile. Because they were "new" they were new--but then slipstream and cross-genre became as done as the foundation genres they set out to subvert.
There was such a call for them that a call to return to traditional genre standars would seem new, lol.
Same with S&S in my opinion. You have such a big ploiferation of the BFF being published that many of today's readers would find old school S&S a "new" experience.
Of course now I'm enjoying the talk so much I just spoke for RHF--apologizes, lol.
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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Hamstersbane - 4/1/2008 5:02 PM | I guess this debate kind of scratches one of my pet peeves...I don't get the constant drumbeat of "doesn't add anything new to the genre."
I'm not saying every fantasy out there should be Tolkein revisited, or every S&S should be Conan repainted. But as Nathan said, genre has its limitations. There are ways to be original and still stay within the boundaries of the genre. Look at Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. Excellent writers with top-notch works that, in my opinion, really don't stretch the boundaries much. Williams' trillogy is a bit unique for fantasy in that he downplays the magic considerably, and Jordan's take on magic is not something I can recall coming across before. But they're still fantasy, with elves and monsters and all manner of evil.
In the interest of disclosure, I will say this pushes my buttons because most of the reviews I've gotten for "That Ain't a Mosey" bring up this very point -- "doesn't add anything to the (zombie) genre." It's about the only negative anyone's ever found, but then I wasn't trying to break new ground aside from maybe the setting. I had another horror story rejected recently with the same note (on that one, I actually disagree with the editor, but that's the way it goes).
I understand Jordan's point, but I wonder if people may be going overboard with it.
Jeff Parish
Jennings Grove, an online horror serial novel
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| Posted By : nathan - 4/1/2008 5:11 PM |
Hamstersbane said...
"doesn't add anything to the (zombie) genre."  Man I gotta tell you. No matter how many times your wife, risen from the dead, cracks your skull and eats your family's brains it's gonna feel new when she gets to you.
Found this quote that seemed to fit our discussion and zombie stories about the making of Grindhouse by QT: Tarantino remembers, "I realized I couldn't do a straight slasher film, because with the exception of women-in-prison films, there is no other genre quite as rigid. And if you break that up, you aren't really doing it anymore. It's inorganic, [end]
It just reinforces the point that genre = boundaries but boundaries aren't always bad. If you want to break boundaries (and why that would be bad I don't know) then maybe what you want isn't really that genre anymore.
I will not send EDF any straight genre (or linear for that matter  ) stories because just because Jordan may not pick the same stories to read as I would doesn't mean an editor isn't king of his slush pile.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/1/2008 5:21 PM |
nathan said...
I will not send EDF any straight genre (or linear for that matter
 Oooh you corrected it just in time, I was going to give you hell for spelling it "jordon" again ;)
We publish plenty of genre stuff. Bill Ward is a great example, and I'd love it if he'd contribute to the thread. He has an awesome story coming up on the 4th which is perfect S&S, but it's got that not-quite-standard edge that sets it apart. He's a great example of a writer whose stories are S&S without question, but that contain that "new" element that takes the piece to the next level.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/1/2008 5:25 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...
RHFay said...My personal viewpoint - I think comments about "a new twist on genre tropes" are becoming old news. Doesn't it just become yet another type of "standard"? At this point, a return to "standard genre tropes" might be a refreshing change from all the twists out there. Maybe I just haven't read enough to become jaded in my views toward "standard genre tropes".
I wrote a little pithy remark about this that I've since deleted.
Please clarify what you mean? If something is new, it cannot be standard....
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the current mantra, the current "standard", if you will, seems to have become "new twist on an old trope". It gets to the point that I just crave a return to the basics. Sort of what Nathan said.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Daniel Ausema - 4/1/2008 5:31 PM | I love innovation for its own sake...so I suppose keep that in mind with the rest of this. It's certainly possible to tell an excellent story that when summarized seems to be the same old story as a thousand others. I'd think it must be doing something noteworthy within that, though. I'd say that the reaction that a particular story does nothing new is usually more complex than that--it's rather that the reader finished a story, and while there may have been nothing that stands out as poorly written or told, they're left with a feeling that it just wasn't memorable. If it's doing something exciting or interesting with character or setting or plot or storytelling or whatever, then even if it seems that it isn't doing anything especially new, then I'm guessing most readers won't be left thinking, "It doesn't do anything new."
So I guess, if I finish a story about a petty thief or two in a dirty city and think, "Meh, I would have been better off reading an original Lankhmar story," then I might say it's because the story wasn't innovative. But if I read another story with a thief and that city is stunningly realized or the character is presented in a way that makes her come alive or the caper is pulled off (or fails) in such a spectacular way, then the question of innovation likely won't even be there, only that it was an impressive story.
Long-winded way of saying "doesn't do anything new for the genre" usually reveals that, for that reader at least, the story fails at some other level.
(But then I have to end encouraging all writers to look for innovative plots, characters, and (especially, in my tastes) settings...simply because that's what I like  )
Twigs and Brambles (my writing blog) |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/1/2008 5:33 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...
Oooh you corrected it just in time, I was going to give you hell for spelling it "jordon" again ;)
 A man A. Not O. You see how conientisious I am? And plus; if I do *that* to "conscientious" you have to know it's my typing.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/1/2008 5:38 PM |
Daniel Ausema said...
So I guess, if I finish a story about a petty thief or two in a dirty city and think, "Meh, I would have been better off reading an original Lankhmar story," then I might say it's because the story wasn't innovative. But if I read another story with a thief and that city is stunningly realized or the character is presented in a way that makes her come alive or the caper is pulled off (or fails) in such a spectacular way, then the question of innovation likely won't even be there, only that it was an impressive story.
Long-winded way of saying "doesn't do anything new for the genre" usually reveals that, for that reader at least, the story fails at some other level.
Okay, Daniel pretty much hit the nail on the head here. It's gotta be memorable and the easiest (but not the only) way of achieving that is to be fresh and new.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Hamstersbane - 4/1/2008 5:40 PM |
nathan said...
I will not send EDF any straight genre (or linear for that matter ) stories because just because Jordan may not pick the same stories to read as I would doesn't mean an editor isn't king of his slush pile. The editor is ALWAYS king (or queen) of the slushpile. Of course, that's a lesson every writer has to learn sooner or later (some more painfully than others). I got educated by Jeff VanderMeer on that one with Fast Ships, Black Sails.
Jeff Parish
Jennings Grove, an online horror serial novel
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/1/2008 5:42 PM | Jordan Lapp said...I believe that short fiction is too tight a market to publish the same kind of story over and over. I mean, "barbarian fights monster"? We've all read that story before. Why do we have to read it again? The constant repeat of story tropes is part of the reason that S&S has a bad name in the literary community. I mean, we have some great authors--surely they can come up with some original material? I can be done even in very well trod ground (note Mike Turner's werewolf story in EDF). What do you guys think?
Didn't we have this discussion once before, Jordan, and in the middle of it you said something like how you'd boiled down one of your stories and got a cliche or something?
I don't care how often a specific theme is retold, just as long as it's retold in an enjoyable manner.
Care to guess how many different versions there are of Cinderella?
There isn't any new ground to break, and really, does it matter that you're walking down the same path you walked before, as long as you're enjoying the trip? |
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 4/1/2008 5:44 PM | Hamstersbane said...
The editor is ALWAYS king (or queen) of the slushpile.
Sure, like anything else.
My project, my way.
Your project, your way.
Maybe we'll meet in the middle :) |
| Posted By : PaulMc - 4/1/2008 5:58 PM | Jordan Lapp said...I believe that short fiction is too tight a market to publish the same kind of story over and over. I mean, "barbarian fights monster"? We've all read that story before. Why do we have to read it again? The constant repeat of story tropes is part of the reason that S&S has a bad name in the literary community. I mean, we have some great authors--surely they can come up with some original material? I can be done even in very well trod ground (note Mike Turner's werewolf story in EDF). What do you guys think?
It also depends on how much exposure any given reader has had.
Not to belittle Mike's story in any way - I enjoyed it - but I've seen that before, too. The Beast Must Die also ends with a werewolf hunter who has been bitten and has a loaded (with silver ammo) gun in his hand at the close of the film.
I don't think Mike's story, for example, does anything new. It's just well written and tight and does give a slight skew on the usual werewolf p.o.v., but it is a p.o.v. that has been done before.
I guess I would aim for Robert Frost's old adage as to why he wrote structured rhyme as opposed to free form poetry - he said he liked being free within his harness. (at least, that's what one of my college professors said, I haven't hunted up the quote myself.)
-- Paul McNamee
My Writings |
| Posted By : Nik - 4/1/2008 9:24 PM | I'm with Daniel and CW and several others on this. Just tell the story well. I bet if you took an old S&S tale, changed the characters' names, and described each action and event in a way that's never been used--with language put together in a way never before seen--you'd have an original story. And memorable.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Jaqhama - 4/1/2008 11:40 PM | A good story is a good story...
Sword and Sorcery to my mind is REH and Michael Moorcock and David Gemmel...not Tolkien or any of those 'Epic' Fantasy novels.
Mike's mention of Louis LaMour was spot on...I read a few years ago that Louis had more books in print around the world than any other other author.
And this a guy who writes westerns. (Although I think the Walking Drum was his best novel, and that's historical.)
I think readers of S&S expect a certain sameness. They're comfortable with it, they want it.
It would be easy to change a regular S&S story if one wanted...lets say the monster becomes an alien predator...so you could mix Conan type warrior with aliens.
Which is exactly what the Predator movie was. It was Conan with guns. And a Predator hunter instead of a monster.
But how many people saw the Predator movie as a S&S based story?
No one I'm guessing, because Arnold wasn't using a sword.
Had he been using a sword...
I don't pick up a S&S story because I want to see innovative ideas or a nerdy bespectacled wimp overcome a sexual dysfuntional monster whose rage is based on an inability to procreate with the females of his species.
I want typical macho, tough, hell on wheels heros, beautiful (possibly wanton) women and the nastiest evil sorcerers and monsters on the planet.
I'm pretty sure most lovers of sword and sorcery are looking for the same thing.
(Mayhap the hero is a heroine like Red Sonja or Valeria in some cases)
Moorcock's Dorian Hawkmoon; Jewel in the Skull series...sword and sorcery or epic fantasy?
I believe it was one of the first stories that combinied both to produce a result that pleased S&S fans and fans of Epic fantasy.
It had many diverse characters, a good plot, loads of innovative ideas and visions.
Yet it has never been as popular or mentioned as much as his Elric novels.
Possibly because the Elric stories are the essence of S&S?
I think it's that essence that is important. Not stories that stray away from the basics of S&S fiction.
And why do people continue to read and write REH style fiction?
Because they like it...it's as simple as that. (And there's still a market for it.)
Long live the barbarians and the monsters!
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 4/2/2008 12:21 AM | I've always been confused with the 'doesn't rise above the genre' mindset. If I read an S&S tale, I expect warriors and weapons and magic and monsters. Since every idea has been done to death, it comes down to how well the same old idea is told anew. I'll take a standard storyline that's well-written over something that has a unique twist but reads like a druggie's txt msg. If it's a well-written story with a unique twist, then grand, but odds are it slips into another genre. Take away the magic and S&S becomes (alt) History. Substitute guns and S&S becomes a western. Place it in a modern setting and S&S becomes (shudder) Urban Fantasy. The line between genres is thin and often requires only the simplest renaming of conventions.
I'm not sure why S&S is regularly subjected to the 'trope' bias. It's not like it's alone out there in writing land. Let's see, a mystery starts with a body/missing heiress/insert other here; a cigar chomping PI with no sense of humour who has a drinking problem, cash flow concerns, and an ex-wife who's a stripper. A western has a cattle baron/notorious outlaw/crooked sheriff, a cigar chomping lone cowboy with no sense of humour who drifts from town to town and is tossed in jail for no reason/mistaken for a killer/returns home after 20 years on the trail and who ultimately kills all of the bad-guys with 6 bullets. An adventure story has a kidnapped nuclear scientist with a stunning daughter/an evil crime lord/a missing microfiche, a tired spy/ex-Delta Force/a secretly trained gov't specialist, fun gadgets, and at least once in the story has the snot beat out him before wiping out the equivalent of a small African nation while saving the day.
The way I see it, every genre has its tropes and cliches. I'm not sure why, or better yet, how, we are supposed to 'rise above the genre mindset' without it becoming something else entirely different, and ultimately, unsatisfying.
As far as I'm concerned, my tales are plot driven love stories with elements of S&S, adventure, and horror populated with what I like to think are interesting characters. But then, I'm a tad biased...
Come visit the Community Forums of CPI's Official Site of Conan author Robert E. Howard
Recently published: Valley of Bones in Return of the Sword, Night of the Meld in Flashing Swords #9, Marathon in Issue #10 of Paradox, Kalini Steel in Freehold: Southern Storm, Fool's Treasure in Freehold: The Protector and Old Havana in When the World Runs Thin
Upcoming: Abuse of Power in Flashing Swords #10 and Deluge in the Special Summer Issue of Flashing Swords
www.brucedurham.ca |
| Posted By : R. L. Copple - 4/2/2008 1:23 AM | As one who likes a good and unexpected view on things in a story, and I guess I tend to write that way (current zombie story up at Fear and Trembling, "Confessions of a Zombie's Wife" probably being a good example of that,) I think it boils down to this.
There's average, there's good, and then there's wow. Whatever genre you're writing in, most likely the plot and characters have been done before. Whaever genre you're writing in, I'll bet no one has done it the way you have or can. As with anything, like Simon will tell contestants on American Idol, if you don't make it yours, put your stamp on it, then its like everything else that's been done before. If you do, it is unique and original, no matter how cliched the plot or characters are.
That's what I hear Jordan saying, essentially. Not that one has to transcend the genre, but if one wants to make their mark, you'll have to lift your let and let 'er rip. Then you're helping to add to the genre something fresh, you're own particular outlook on life. Otherwise, it is too much like everything else out there, and if that's true, then there's not much point in reading it. You've already read it.
But I do agree as well, if you innovate enough, you move outside the genre. But putting our own original stamp on a story in a genre, that's what we should all aspire to, whether we hit it or not.
R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com
www.raygunradio.com
www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com |
| Posted By : erazmus - 4/2/2008 3:30 AM | I can't write a Michael Moorcock story, and he can't write a Michael Turner story. Leaving aside the obvious (why would he want too?) every story I write is mine, with my own twisted take on life and the human condition.
When I write flash, I tend to paint with a broad brush and try to elicit an emotional response from the reader, and then stop. If I make you angry or sad or scared, I'm done. To me, thats flash. Only rarely do I try to do more in less than a thousand words, and most of my flash is considerably less. Some drifts down to micro-fiction.
When I'm writing longer works I'm usually just trying to entertain. This isn't as light a task as some would make it out to be-- there isn't much "mere" to entertainment. You have to engage the reader on some level, pleasing words and phrases strung together don't often cut it. Only rarely do I set out to make the reader think--but I often make the reader think anyway. You can not create a character without commenting on the human condition.
S&S is still storytelling, the people in well written S&S are people, maybe not exactly like you and I but mostly so. They strap on their bunny furs one leg at a time. (hmmnn, that metaphor doesn't quite work, does it?) If a story is about a fur-diapered barbarian confronting a monster, it is still different from any other barbarian confronting a monster story. Conan may have killed a monster or two, as did Elak and Fafred and Thongor (and Brak, and Kane, and Cormac--oh please somebody stop me!) but that has little bearing on _this_ barabrian and how he handles _this_ monster. Even if the story is a pastiche, it will come out different (not nec. better, but different).
Several time a week this baseball season, a right-handed power pitcher will face a power hitting lefty with runners in scoring position and the game on the line. Does the fact that Bob Feller faced Joe Dimaggio in 1940 have anything to do with the tension of these games? Does that legendary confrontation take anything away?
In my mind, it only adds to it. It provides a sense of history and continuety to the confrontation, even when tonights game falls short of the great at-bats of yesteryear. And its the same thing with S&S. If the story is the barbarian fights a monster, and its well crafted enough that I care about the barbarian and I'm interested in how he defeats, or escapes, or is eaten by, the monster, then that is enough. At least, it may be. I hope an author will put more meat on it than that, and as an editor I certainly try to select stories that have more going for them than this bare-bones description makes it sound, but I do not need to have the sub-genre redefined to have a good time reading it.
Nor should I. There is nothing wrong with the genre, not in my opinion. Elseways, why would I be reading it. It isn't a class assignment, I don't have a dead-line for turning in a review. I enjoy, or at least think I will enjoy, this story. Reviewers can pine for ground-breaking work, afterall its great to discover something significant and shout it out to the world. But need we artfully reinvent everything we read every few months to enjoy it?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/2/2008 12:26 PM |
I certainly agree that, as a writer, you have to put your own individual stamp on things. You certainly should write like yourself, not like other authors.
However, I don't personally believe that the "personal stamp" need necessarily be a "new twist on an old genre trope". I don't think the two things are always the same.
Take my poetry, for instance. I don't tend to write like a lot of the other speculative poets out there. I've noticed that my poetry tends to be a bit different. Even one editor commented that my poetry differed from the usual "contemporary" submissions. Now, being different from what's out there right now isn't necessarily the same as being a "new twist". My poems are different, in part, because they are often inspired by traditional lore, and the works of the poets of yore. Yes, I've written a few "psycho killer" pieces, but I often write about old castles and the darker side of fairyland. Trust me, I'm not the first to write about such things, and I've had plenty of rejections stating "well written, but doesn't tell us anything new".
As another example, take the current trend with vampires. Vampires have become sexier and more "chic" over time. The vampires of lore were dreadful animated corpses. Even Dracula, often cited as one of the first "sexy" vampires, wasn't really that "sexy" until the story was translated to the stage and screen (read Harker's description of the count if you have any doubts). And once the erotic undercurrents came to the surface, forget it! Vampires became sex objects.
A return to the dreadful, monstrous vampires of lore might seem like a "new twist" today amidst all the stories about sexy vampires and vampire anti-heroes. In my mind, what made Salem's Lot stand out back when I read it was the fact that King did indeed return to more "monstrous" vampires. This aspect was even more obvious in the television miniseries based on the book. It wasn't so much a "new twist on an old trope" as a return to the traditional, a ressurection of an old take on a genre trope.
Depending upon the state of the market, and depending upon people's tastes, a return to the traditional can work.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 1:17 PM |
Bruce Durham said...
An adventure story has a kidnapped nuclear scientist with a stunning daughter/an evil crime lord/a missing microfiche, a tired spy/ex-Delta Force/a secretly trained gov't specialist, fun gadgets, and at least once in the story has the snot beat out him before wiping out the equivalent of a small African nation while saving the day.
Ah, Bruce you've been reading my books . Okay, okay, the stunning daughter almost always has another and often murderous agenda of her own--but my shrink says this is not Freudian and merely convention.
I guess it should be noted as a general statement that I don't think Jordan is objectively wrong or some such--he's talking about what he likes and what he feels is a rewarding reading experience.
Most of my points have to do with reviewers telling wouldbe readers who are looking for genre fiction that a story "is genre fiction" as if it were a pejorgative to be so.
And also how often "bad writing" is often used synonymously with "staying in trophes" if you will. I love a variation of a lone violent man of action tangling with Cthulu or something like that--but I can except people tired of reading that. My 'beef' (or whatever) is more with reviewers.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 1:19 PM |
I guess it should be noted as a general statement that I don't think Jordan is objectively wrong or some such--he's talking about what he likes and what he feels is a rewarding reading experience.
Given the choice between two equally well-written stories, both written within the genre, but one is new and explores something you've never seen done before.... which would you pick?
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 1:26 PM |
RHFay said...
A return to the dreadful, monstrous vampires of lore might seem like a "new twist" today amidst all the stories about sexy vampires and vampire anti-heroes. In my mind, what made Salem's Lot stand out back when I read it was the fact that King did indeed return to more "monstrous" vampires. This aspect was even more obvious in the television miniseries based on the book. It wasn't so much a "new twist on an old trope" as a return to the traditional, a ressurection of an old take on a genre trope.
Depending upon the state of the market, and depending upon people's tastes, a return to the traditional can work. I like you. I'm only pointing this out because I'm almost 40 a SK fan and a bit of a book dork. Ok, drop the 'bit' qualifier.
If you eliminate *some* of the way Dracula was described then mostly the popular concept of vamps at the time Lot came out was off a powerful head man--not sexy like Lesat but cult leader--and a bunch of servants who were basically "fast zombies." What made Lot such a groundbreaking work for the time was the (okay the characterization) Our Town blue collar spin on a horror story.
Super sexy vamps didn't start (well get big) until Anne Rice came along several years later.
But having been all lawerly let me hasten to add I happen to agree with your point. Brian Lumley and the bit of EE Knights vamp stuff I've read, read a little closer to the icky fast zombie style than Brad Pitt in leatherpants type that is so in profusion today.
And appear a little unique among the Laura K Hamilton copies for their alliegences to older trophes about vamps.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 1:31 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...
I guess it should be noted as a general statement that I don't think Jordan is objectively wrong or some such--he's talking about what he likes and what he feels is a rewarding reading experience.
Given the choice between two equally well-written stories, both written within the genre, but one is new and explores something you've never seen done before.... which would you pick?
I could try and be smart and break this all down into sub compartments of arguments--but I'm actually not arguing.
So, if it were still within genre and *all other* factors were in play at equal levels then sure I'd go with the new take.
Put this way I agree with what your saying. I don't think it is a counter-argument to any of my general points so I don't feel hypocritical--but sure I'd pick up the new spin to see what was what.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 1:56 PM | Well, that's kind of my point. That situation ALWAYS exists because of the huge volume of submissions. In seven months, I've rejected NINE HUNDRED stories. No kidding.
Look, you've convinced me to give run-of-the-mill stories a chance. However, I don't think that the kind of people who read "Dan Brown" are also reading short fiction. I think the average short fiction reader is fairly well immersed in the genre.
That said, there's merit in the argument that people read S&S looking for a specific formula.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : James Enge - 4/2/2008 1:59 PM | I really can't agree about Anne Rice inventing the sexy vampire. Look at the way Lucy Westenra is described in the original Dracula novel, for instance, or what vamp means in the early 20th C. What Rice did was update the sexiness (since the standards on these things change frequently) and take a pro-vampire stance.
Novelty itself doesn't impress me as a reader, but impact does, and something which is overfamiliar can lose its impact. That's what Jordan seems to be getting at (correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm inclined to agree. On the other hand, I think genre, and the tropes of genre, can have impact as well. For maximum impact there should be a tension between the novel and the familiar, the new and the known.
There's also the fact that an author who uses a barbarian, for instance, is inviting comparison to REH, and that's a pretty high hurdle to clear. Someone is supposed to have teased Vergil about stealing from Homer and he said, "Try it yourself sometime. It's easier to steal Hercules' club than one of Homer's lines." If you can get away with it, it's obviously something to brag about, but it's not the only thing worth doing.
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Gordian Stone" in Every Day Fiction
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 1:59 PM | Dude, I know you just said something but...I keep staring at that freakin ferret drinking the beer.
I discovered a racoon in my back yard last night eating my cat's food. I'm wondering how he might like some Dead Guy ale and if I can get it on my digital camera.
For all PETA soldiers: just jokes.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 2:01 PM |
James Enge said...
Novelty itself doesn't impress me as a reader, but impact does, and something which is overfamiliar can lose its impact. That's what Jordan seems to be getting at (correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm inclined to agree.
You have a way of plucking truth from admist the dross. That's exactly it.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 2:05 PM |
James Enge said...
I really can't agree about Anne Rice inventing the sexy vampire. Look at the way Lucy Westenra is described in the original Dracula novel, for instance, or what vamp means in the early 20th C. What Rice did was update the sexiness (since the standards on these things change frequently) and take a pro-vampire stance.
No, this is true.
I did say disregard *some* of what was in Dracula in my post. Female vampires were almost always sexy right from the get go, I admit freely--and dracula was often seen as a Byronic character. But the movies and books I remember from the 70's had more of that fast zombie vibe and King was working within that--but in his own voice.
Then Rice hit like Fat Boy on Hiroshima and all you could find were stories about uber-cool, uber-sexy gender ambiguous Clavin Klein models with fangs.
And during this time, just below the radar but making a living Brian Lumlly was writting against type--though a little closer to what SK had in Lot.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 2:06 PM | And hell, when was the last time you saw a vampire movie where the (usually female) vampire actually drank blood???? I kept waiting for that in Ultraviolet, but it never happened.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 2:15 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...
And hell, when was the last time you saw a vampire movie where the (usually female) vampire actually drank blood???? I kept waiting for that in Ultraviolet, but it never happened.
You are much more likely to see her rub against another girl like a cat or perhaps kiss her.
As an aside the first story I ever sold for (then) pro-rates was a vampire story to Bloodlust-UK. I read "brave" story after social courageous story about bisexual manorexia stricken Kurt Cobains turned to lords of the night and I was immediatly moved to write a story about THIS guy.
I got a curt acceptence. Then I got a curt request to mention my motivation, I did so, outlinning what I said above. Then I got nothing. I've had friendlier rejections by far than I did that acceptance. Check cashed fine though.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 2:18 PM | Lol. I've got a friend who's written about a truly disgusting vampire. I keep urging him to send it out, but he's too shy by far..
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 4/2/2008 2:19 PM | Originality is a good thing, but as James rightly points out it isn't the whole ballgame.
I seem to run across a good deal of speculative fiction out there that is certainly original, but seems to toss out all the ideas of characterization, plot, etc., in the process. Indeed, on occasion I've seen stuff that was so doggone original it was pretty much impossible to read -- or so unsatisying from a storytelling standpoint that even if I admired many of the sentences, I couldn't find myself thinking highly of the whole.
I'm definitely on board with trying to punch up the originality factor in my own stuff. I've been writing more non-sword and sorcery of late partly out of a desire to do that, but I feel that urge when writing a good old-fashioned S&S tale, too. But I don't see myself ever veering in the direction of some of the stuff touted as "groundbreaking" and "original" and "metatextual deconstructionist post-Next-New-Weird-Until-We-Decide-What-The Future-Weird-Ought-To-Be" stuff I've seen. If that's what it takes to sell in some markets, I'll probably just stubbornly keep living and writing what I like until the pendulum swings back my way again.
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 2:21 PM | Actually if I'm honest the way I'm railing against the modern-trophes of the vampire novel seems to rather be making your point in the general Jordan.
If I loved me some Laura K Hamilton and the reviewer just ripped apart the heroin-chic images and mandatory porn passages I'd feel just as disgruntled as I do about what people are saying about "trope bending" stuff in S&S.
So I'll stop teasing because the point isn't that trophes are bad but rather than hypocrisy is funny.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : nathan - 4/2/2008 2:24 PM | Yep. This was 2001-2002 and Bloodlust-UK isn't really that big anymore so you're safe. I called him the Abbot--but yep.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : James Enge - 4/2/2008 2:33 PM | Jordan said...
You have a way of plucking truth from admist the dross.
Thanks! It usually works the other way around. Yad etisoppo eb tsum ti.
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Gordian Stone" in Every Day Fiction
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate |
| Posted By : RHFay - 4/2/2008 3:16 PM |
Super sexy vamps didn't start (well get big) until Anne Rice came along several years later. I guess I do tend to mix up media a lot in my discussions. Sexy vampires were certainly around in movies well before Anne Rice came along. Think Frank Langella as Dracula. Even Lugosi was supposed to be sexy in his day.
I do agree - female vampires seem to have had that "sexy" factor almost from the start.
My point was that the much older vampire "trope" is for monstrous vampires. Publishing a work with monstrous, disgusting vampires may be seen as a new twist in today's market, but it's not really a new idea.
To be fair, I'm not saying a "new twist" is a bad thing, I'm just saying that "old tropes" might not be a bad thing under the right circumstances.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 3:18 PM | I see your point, Richard, and agree with it, though I think it only applies in extreme cases like vampires.
Elves, for instance, are being overdone to death, and they've been overdone in the exact same way since Tolkien.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/2/2008 3:23 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...And hell, when was the last time you saw a vampire movie where the (usually female) vampire actually drank blood????
The Insatiable, a recent SciFi original. As with most SciFi originals, it was a rather stupid movie, but the female vampire most definitely drank blood. She drank blood from a homeless man, from a rabbit, from a meter reader, and from her captor/boyfriend's workplace rival. The whole idea that she needed to drink blood every night was rather central to the plot. It might have been only in brief shots, but they did actually show her drinking the blood from her victims.
As bad a movie as it was, they did do a good job of combining the monstrous with the sexy. She was sexy, but she was also a monster.
(Yeah, I really lead a very unexciting life. My family enjoys "dumb movie night" on the SciFi channel.)
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/2/2008 3:31 PM |
Jordan Lapp said...I see your point, Richard, and agree with it, though I think it only applies in extreme cases like vampires. Elves, for instance, are being overdone to death, and they've been overdone in the exact same way since Tolkien.
I definitely agree that the "Tolkien clones" get a bit boring after a while. I read one Dennis McKiernan work that had a scene that was a complete rip-off of the Moria gate scene in The Fellowship of the Ring. That certainly does annoy me, especially since I think Tolkien did it better anyway.
However, I don't think the presence of elves (or dragons, or goblins) necessarily makes something an "old genre trope". I think elves can be done in a different way than they were done in Tolkien.
However, how much this difference really makes it a "new twist on an old trope", or falls short from that objective, may be in the eye of the beholder.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 3:46 PM |
RHFay said...
However, I don't think the presence of elves (or dragons, or goblins) necessarily makes something an "old genre trope". I think elves can be done in a different way than they were done in Tolkien.
However, how much this difference really makes it a "new twist on an old trope", or falls short from that objective, may be in the eye of the beholder.
It feels like you're arguing two sides of the same argument. Could you please clarify? Earlier you were saying that "new twists on an old trope" was a bad idea, but here you're suggesting that elves could be done with a "new twist".
I think I'm missing something fundamental in your argument.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/2/2008 4:04 PM | Maybe I'm just not seeing it as "black & white", and I can see both sides of the issue. I don't think I necessarily said that a new twist is a bad idea, just that the whole concept gets a bit old after a while, like the dislike of things with elves and dragons (I happen to like stories with elves and dragons). I don't think the presence of an "old trope" is necessarily a bad thing either. As some people have already pointed out, stray too far from the "standard genre tropes", and the piece becomes something else.
However, I will also admit that a fresh angle of an old trope might work better than a simple rehash of old tropes. But, as was pointed out with Mike's werewolf story (which I did like, by the way), you can always find someone that thinks a new twist isn't really that new. I know I've read or seen similar stories, but that doesn't mean Mike's story is bad.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that new twists aren't always as new as they seem. And a return to the "old tropes" may, in some instances, be a "new twist". But is it really new?
Am I making any sense? I'm not sure. Perhaps it's hard to explain my viewpoint because I'm really not trying to simply take one side or another. I don't think it's that cut-and-dry.
Perhaps it's not so much something "new" as something "different". Maybe that makes more sense.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/2/2008 4:27 PM | Another point - maybe it's a matter of degree. I have seen the "new twist" argument used to possibly discount anything in the fantasy genre involving elves, dragons, or heroic quests, since they are all old genre tropes. Personally, I believe this goes too far.
Am I opposed to "new twists"? Of course not, although I will admit to a fondness for the "Tolkienesque" fantasy.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : MichaelEhart - 4/2/2008 4:43 PM | It is an axiom among stage magicians that a "New Trick" is any one that your audience hasn't seen before. New tricks can be something as simple as an unusual protagonist, POV or setting, or a different tone to a common type of tale, or deeper or less realism to the world than the genre norm (Does your world have flies, cow poop and flatulence? Ask me how!) or any number of things that can give it a new look.
It is also said among magicians that every non-mechanical principle of magic is demonstrated in a good cups and balls routine---misdirection, momentary concealment, one-ahead, false count, forced perspective, et al. There are paintings on the inside of 4000 year old Egyptian tombs of court magicians doing essentially the same cups and balls routines that are practiced today.
So the point? If a good magician can delight an audience with the same tricks, and perhaps even the same patter as the Amazing Imohotshak used at Ramses the Great's 8th birthday party, so can a good writer take whatever tropes and boundaries a genre has laying around, and delight the reader.
With my Servant sories I have taken the Torah, the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Tale of the Deluge, mixed them with Zane Grey, Roger Zelazny and Raymond Chandler and poured the results into a S&S blender. I'm not able to claim originality in plot-lines, but I can say there is no one writing the same stuff I am, for better or worse, and that I have a unique voice---whether or not this is a good thing is for the readers to decide.
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"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, March 30
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" They Are Not What They Seem, Janrae Frank, ed., TBA
"The First Trial of Jermaish the King" Flashing Swords #10, May 2008
Still in print!
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| Posted By : John M. Whalen - 4/2/2008 4:49 PM | There is nothing new under the sun. Yet every sunrise is new.
Don't ask me what it means! |
| Posted By : Bruce Durham - 4/2/2008 10:43 PM | nathan said...Bruce Durham said...
An adventure story has a kidnapped nuclear scientist with a stunning daughter/an evil crime lord/a missing microfiche, a tired spy/ex-Delta Force/a secretly trained gov't specialist, fun gadgets, and at least once in the story has the snot beat out him before wiping out the equivalent of a small African nation while saving the day.
Ah, Bruce you've been reading my books
Not that one. When's it coming out?
I'm sure writers in all of these other genres are bemoaning the same problems we are, though I really wonder why S&S is held up to such a microscope.
nathan said...
My 'beef' (or whatever) is more with reviewers.
Amen to that. A certain bias has been prevalent against S&S since the first issue of Flashing Swords appeared. Things are better, but there's still a ways to go.
Every 20 years or so the Western rises from the ashes and makes a splash at the box office and suddenly what's old is new. The same can be said for certain elements of the genre.
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| Posted By : erazmus - 4/3/2008 3:05 AM | Bruce Durham said...I'm sure writers in all of these other genres are bemoaning the same problems we are, though I really wonder why S&S is held up to such a microscope. nathan said...
My 'beef' (or whatever) is more with reviewers. Amen to that. A certain bias has been prevalent against S&S since the first issue of Flashing Swords appeared. Things are better, but there's still a ways to go. Every 20 years or so the Western rises from the ashes and makes a splash at the box office and suddenly what's old is new. The same can be said for certain elements of the genre.
Its the cover paintings. They are offensive to women, overweight geeks, underweight geeks, feminised men in general and pacifists. Frazzeta, Boris, Les Edwards, Luis Royo, Clyde Cauldwell, doesn't matter. S&S gets these cool covers with nekkid women and muscular men (or occasionally nekkid men and muscular women) engaging in violent displays. Worse, the action inside often actually resembles the scene on the cover!
I love reviewers. A little salt, some lemon, nicely roasted . . .
seriously, the hardest thing about getting S&S promoted is reaching are target audience (and convincing it to put down the game controller and actually pick up the book). While many people from many walks of like will appriciate and enjoy our fiction, it is young, imaginitive and frustrated adolescents (of either gender, these days) who should really be able to dig in to what we have to offer. And they aren't going to be reading many review sites. If I could put one add out for F-S, I'd put it in GamePro.
The problem we have with criticism from people outside our tiny sphere is that we listen. Our fiction is fun, or should be. We should remember to have fun with it. If we are having fun writing, publishing and reading S&S, others will pick up on that, no matter what. If we could consistently put out really enjoyable works that you wouldn't want you thirteen year old son or daughter to read, we'd start something big. (please, please, Mr. Ernest Parent, don't throw my book on that bonfire!)
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
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"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
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| Posted By : Steven the Git - 4/3/2008 9:12 AM | I do think the execution of it counts for a hell of a lot. I like elves and dragons and stuff, so if it seems the same old thing, but is written well and has characters I take an interest in, will read and enjoy. Maybe won't respect it that much, but can still find it in myself to like it. If something is original or different, great, but not if written badly.
I remember when I read Lords and Ladies by Pratchett. Elves but very different, but the main thing was it was very well written. Remains one of my favourites of his.
I only read Conan last year. I bought the book of everything Howard did concerning the character. By now it can be see as very stereotypical - women to be rescued, serpent men, sorcerers with evil intent. But then I knew Howard is part of the reason why it is this way. So when I thought, hmm, I could remind myself that hey, he did this before I was born!
But that wasn't why I read it or enjoyed it. Howard had great dynamic writing and Conan was a vibrant figure in his stories. So even though his work has become almost too well known by now, it is still a fantastic read and would recommend to anyone.
Ok, will have to admit I am a sucker for that type of story too. I mean I'm annoyed as just missed Krull on tv! But to go right back to the first post - barbarian fights monster. Give me a barbarian I want to read about and a monster that daunts me, and i'm in.
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/3/2008 9:46 AM |
Bruce Durham said...
Every 20 years or so the Western rises from the ashes and makes a splash at the box office and suddenly what's old is new. The same can be said for certain elements of the genre. The last one I can think of that went anywhere in the box office was "Unforgiven" (nearly twenty years ago), and I remember Westerns being rare at that time.
I read a lot of screenwriting blogs and magazines and I don't think the Western will ever rise again. You know why? Foreign rights. Foreign sales are huge in movies and only getting bigger and bigger as time goes on--and foreigners dont like Westerns. The cowboy is a uniquely American protagonist.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : PaulMc - 4/3/2008 9:51 AM | Jordan Lapp said...Bruce Durham said...
Every 20 years or so the Western rises from the ashes and makes a splash at the box office and suddenly what's old is new. The same can be said for certain elements of the genre. The last one I can think of that went anywhere in the box office was "Unforgiven" (nearly twenty years ago), and I remember Westerns being rare at that time. I read a lot of screenwriting blogs and magazines and I don't think the Western will ever rise again. You know why? Foreign rights. Foreign sales are huge in movies and only getting bigger and bigger as time goes on--and foreigners dont like Westerns. The cowboy is a uniquely American protagonist.
???
What about all those 'spagetti' westerns? Yes, they got spent out but they were huge in Italy for a time, which I think shows that it can appeal to a foreign market.
-- Paul McNamee
My Writings |
| Posted By : T A Markitan - 4/3/2008 10:07 AM | Jordan Lapp said...
--and foreigners dont like Westerns.
Ok, I'm your huckleberry.
Are you sure westerns aren't just getting the same treatment on the blogs and reviews as S&S?
I live in Wyoming, and every year at Cheyenne Frontier Days we get a significant amount of foreign tourists. All of them come to experience the "wild west" and see the "Cowboys and Indians".
When I lived in Germany I noticed a significant interest in Native American art, and when we stepped off the plane at the airport an older gentleman picked up his grandson and said, "Look! A cowboy!", because my son had on his black cowboy hat.
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| Posted By : RHFay - 4/3/2008 10:51 AM | I don't think you can ignore the huge impact "American" culture has had upon certain other countries and nationalities.
The western may rise up again. I believe a lot of these sorts of things move in cycles.
Also, I don't think being uniquely of one culture or nationality necessarily bars something from having international appeal. To put it another way - the medieval knight is a uniquely "European" protagonist, but every so often you have movies that come out |
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