The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=19&m=74454
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 3/26/2008 10:56 PM | | Hey guys,
I posted a fairly long-winded thread in response to a write complaint about why EDF only pays a buck a story. I'd really love to here your thoughts and ideas on it. You can find it here.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Bill Ward - 3/26/2008 11:29 PM | I posted a reply over there. Basically I think it would be foolish to try to raise your rates, and that should be obvious to anyone that stops to think that you're buying 365 stories a year.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 3/26/2008 11:38 PM | Thanks for the comments, Bill. The truth is that if I won the lottery we'd pay 25c/word just for the hell of it.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 3/27/2008 1:02 AM | Worrying about how much you get paid for a flash story is like worrying about whether your tennis serve was out by a foot or out by a dozen yards. It doesn't matter.
What matters to me is that when I publish a story at EDF, I hear from readers. Mostly in the comments, sometimes via email, occasionally at my blog. But I know people are reading ... and isn't that the only real reason to write short fiction of any kind?
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. |
| Posted By : Nik - 3/27/2008 1:02 AM | Jordan Lapp said...
Thanks for the comments, Bill. The truth is that if I won the lottery we'd pay 25c/word just for the hell of it.
In that case, I just donated enough for you to buy a 20-word story. My only request is that it be 20 words of fantasy .
If I come up with any ideas on how you can earn enough money to realistically raise rates, I'll let you know. But all in all, I think EDF is doing just fine, and you should know your work is recognized and appreciated.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Nik - 3/27/2008 1:04 AM | Swashbuckler said...
Worrying about how much you get paid for a flash story is like worrying about whether your tennis serve was out by a foot or out by a dozen yards. It doesn't matter.
What matter to me is that when I publish a story at EDF, I hear from readers. Mostly in the comments, sometimes via email, occasionally at my blog. But I know people are reading ... and isn't that the only real reason to write short fiction of any kind?
Well said.
I would only add that I also enjoy reading EDF and interacting with other authors.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com |
| Posted By : Swashbuckler - 3/27/2008 1:10 AM | Nik: Point well taken. I like reading EDF, too.
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 3/27/2008 1:10 AM | Thanks for the donation, Nik! It's totally appreciated!
I totally agree, Steve. Flash is truly a "for the love" endaevour.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Nicholas - 3/27/2008 1:48 AM | I concur. The only other place where I've gotten as many comments as EDF is over at Pseudopod. Anything else has been a distant second--lucky to get back one, two responses tops. In most cases, the last good thing one hears about a story is from the editor when he/she accepts it.
I've donated back all three of my dollars, because--obviously--I don't write for EDF for the money. I do it for the high-quality cigars Jordan sends me. Which I'm still waiting for.
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| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 3/27/2008 7:21 AM | I didn't realise the issue with email subscribers (of which I am one) compared to RSS feed subscribers.
I'm not really au fait with RSS feeds. I do read a few of them that are pumped to livejournal (which is the hangout for a lot of writing types). Would having an LJ RSS presence help EDF, or am I just being a complete twonk here?
Brian Dolton
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : H.P. Lovesauce - 3/27/2008 9:30 AM | Jordan, you laid out several points I can't see anyone reasonable arguing with.
Swashbuckler said...
I know people are reading ... and isn't that the only real reason to write short fiction of any kind? Yes. Yes it is. |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 3/27/2008 9:49 AM | I can not add much, as I agree with what has been said...
As a writer struggling with craft, I feel that I owe EDF money for the wonderful feedback I have gotten on stories they did not accept. (Yes, a donation will be on the way in the near future.)
Jordan, are you actively playing the lottery, or are you just teasing us?
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in the Infinity Swords anthology
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 3/27/2008 11:09 AM | Brian,
The RSS feed issue seems unbelievably stupid to me. What's the difference between e-mail and RSS Subscribers? Subscribing to our feed through LJ >does< help, I believe, so if you could spread the word there, I would appreciate it.
Deven,
My uncle won 10 mil in the lottery a few years back (then lost most of it in the Dot Com crash, d'oh!) so the odds of lightning striking twice in the same family are infantessimal... nevertheless... hope springs eternal ;)
Nick,
A good Cuban cigar roller is hard to find way up here in Canada, and I wouldn't dream of sending you anything less than fresh ;)
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/28/2008 3:01 AM | Jordan,
I don't know who the guy that posted on LJ was, but don't listen to him. Your pay rate is just fine. It would be great if everyone could afford to pay the same rates as the pro markets, but even the pro markets can't allways afford their own rates. You have a good business plan, you have solid ideas how to take your magazine where you want it to go. Stick to them and you'll get it there.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
Managing Editor of Flashing Swords
Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print |
| Posted By : Gustavo - 3/28/2008 11:21 PM | Who complained about the pay rate??? I won't add anything to the positive comments on the exposure and the business model - simply say that I agree with everything that's been said here and on the EDF forum.
But there's another thing that nobody mentioned: nobody is forcing anyone to sub to EDF. If you don't like the payrates, send your work somewhere else. End of Story.
Jordan, meanwhile, will continue to have my subs in his slush (sorry Jordan), and I will continue to thank him for my dollar (and the exposure, which I consider an integral part of the payment), which is, after all, what I agreed to when I sent the story in. Anyone complaining about a low pay rate is simply whining.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
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| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/28/2008 11:53 PM | Gustavo said...
Anyone complaining about a low pay rate is simply whining.
anyone complaining about being paid at all is whining. |
| Posted By : RHFay - 3/29/2008 12:26 AM | |
<<scratchin' my head again>>
If a payment of one dollar is what the editor and contributor are both comfortable with, what's it matter?
You can't expect every market to pay pro-rates, and I think it's reasonable to assume that different markets have different pay rates.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 3/29/2008 5:56 PM | My question was, do higher pay rates really attract more readers? I'm not so sure they do...
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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| Posted By : Bill Ward - 3/29/2008 6:28 PM | Only if those readers are writers looking to do market research. Most markets already rely too heavily on that kind of thing for their readership, anyway.
The thinking with raising the payrates is that it will attract better known writers, and those better known writers will attract their following to the magazine. I just don't see this happening these days, especially not to an extent where big fans of a writer would suddenly become supporters of a magazine because his work appeared in it.
I think many of the paying markets that pay below semi-pro level would be better served by using whatever money they do get (lets assume they enjoy enough success to have the luxury of an actual profit) for promotions. In particular I think a penny a word magazine that finds itself even contemplating raising payrates would do better to think about increasing the rate of publication, because more frequency would translate into more attention from both readers and writers. Obviously, 'more frequency' doesn't apply to EDF.
billwardwriter.com |
| Posted By : nathan - 3/29/2008 6:33 PM | It depends on your business model I would assume. If readers are getting your (any) product in a passive manner--i.e. it's coming without cose right into their email box and it'd be more work to unhook the service than just to not read it anymore--then no. (I'm not suggesting this of EDF except as it fits into the most broad of examples).
If you're putting out a product that people are paying for, that they must extend some effort to acquire it--drive to a store, start *and* maintain a subcription, etc, etc then probablly the old model is going hold a little more true.
Having a Stephen King short story is going to move a lot of copies for you as an indie horror mag. You aren't getting a SK story for free or for a buck and it would be chutzpah to suggest so.
That's one example but really in the older model it comes down to basic capatilism--in the abscene of government subsidies. You have readers. Readers have to actively get your product. To get and keep them you have to give them quality. If you have no competior you can pay a buck and if the writer wants the exposure he'll submit. Now you get 1-infinite number of competiors doing the same thing you are (in old school model) and they pay more. The writers capable of producing repeat readers follow the money, the fans follow the writers---and you know how it works.
This applies if you need to keep in the black. If you don't need to worry then pay rates are secondary.
EDF isn't using the same business model as RoF (nor do I think it wants to it) so it doesn't exist in the same paradigm.
Which isn't bad IMO.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : darkbow - 3/29/2008 8:38 PM | I don't think today's professional writers are writing short stories for money. It would be impossible to live one such funds, unless you are Stephen King and in that case you don't need the money a short story is going to bring you. I do believe a lot of professional writers, even those well known, write shorts today for two reasons: 1.) they enjoy it, 2.) marketing. Anything else is asking too much; there's simply not a market for many publications to pay big, big money, let alone pro rates.
"Steven Spielberg and The Magic Box" upcoming at The Ranfurly Review.
"Peter Piker the Pankin Man" upcoming at Big Pulp
"Walking Between the Rain" at Every Day Fiction
|
| Posted By : nathan - 3/29/2008 8:55 PM |
darkbow said...
I do believe a lot of professional writers, even those well known, write shorts today for two reasons: 1.) they enjoy it, 2.) marketing. Anything else is asking too much; there's simply not a market for many publications to pay big, big money, let alone pro rates. If you eliminate the obvious Playboys and New Yorkers (and even then if you're big) or the examples of SK selling a short story 1-buck at a time on his website and making 180-thousand dollars, you are really right. Short stories are becoming a place for writing enthusiasits rather than a place to practice a craft as a means of income.
This might change if the genre mags change their content to match the best seller lists but I don't know if I believe that will help.
I mean I don't know if pro-rates of 5-cents a word is big, big money though. Most writers by numerical count, making money for their stories are getting paid the same amount writers were during the depression.
If you believe your effort is worth compensation then seen from that view then maybe the argument is that writers are wrong for wanting fair pay but rather that so many publications should stop trying to operate under unrealistic business models.
That is, I think you are correct, but I'm not sure it's *only* just a matter of writers being unrealistic for wanting their fiction to keep up with inflation...from the 1930's.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : darkbow - 3/29/2008 9:16 PM | I think it's realistic in that there's no market. If, by some miracle, there should suddenly be a huge upsurgence in the need for short fiction, then the market will naturally reflect that. I don't consider writing short fiction as something that needs to keep up with inflation simply because ... well, drat it, I'll repeat ... there's no market for it. Writers, serious writers, in the current market need to realize that if they wish to make a living off their writing then they are going to have to turn to novels (which I think nathan has done). But who knows? The market may change. Or perhaps in 10 years we'll all be writing scripts for video games.
But, as a fun little exercise, let me figure out here how much I'd have to get paid, by word, to make a living as a short story writer:
Let's say my annual salary needs to be $40,000. That might seem high to some folks, but it's not outlandish by any means.
For me, just me, I'd say I spend about ... oh, let's say 6 hours altogether working on a short story. I'll give my average length at about 3,000 words.
To me, for me, those numbers sound about right.
So, by those numbers, I could write nearly 7 shorts a week. I'll just use 7 to keep it simple (and because I know it would only be 2 more hours of work, and I'm sure I could manage that).
7 stories a week, or a story a day, 364 stories a year. At $40,000 a year, I'd need to make nearly $110 per story. With an average word count of 3,000 words per story, I'd need a little more than 27 cents per word.
Maybe that money doesn't sound too outrageous, but then I'd have to find 364 markets for all my stories. To be fair. I could maybe get by with only a couple of hundred markets, my thinking being I'd sell more than one story to a fair number of publications.
And that would mean I'd probably have to put in another 5 to 10 hours a week (a rough estimate) to find those markets, do rewrites, deal with my taxes, answer editors' e-mails, etc. etc.
And that's just making $40,000 a year.
"Steven Spielberg and The Magic Box" upcoming at The Ranfurly Review.
"Peter Piker the Pankin Man" upcoming at Big Pulp
"Walking Between the Rain" at Every Day Fiction
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| Posted By : nathan - 3/29/2008 9:27 PM |
darkbow said...
I think it's realistic in that there's no market. Then why are new magazines starting?
Don't misunderstand I think we're agreeing--short stories are becoming like poetry, it's done on a smaller scale mostly for personal reasons. It's no longer (and hasn't been for awhile) a professional endeavour in more than a part-time sense and then only for a handful.
If what is happening is that you have magazines starting up to become like literary journals or poetry journals where the whole effort is basically for the love (meant 100% in a good way) then you are right.
If however you (not "you" you the generic you) were starting a magazine to make money and you can't afford to pay your labor, and you in fact think you're somehow doing the labor a favor by allowing them to labor for you then BS. Either you can afford to pay the labor a living wage (if you can call "pro-rates" a "living wage") or you can't afford to go into business.
--but I let me hasten to add I don't think you meant you want to exploit the "illegal immigrant" of the labor force in a literary sweatshop so that management can make money. I assume you meant the whole paradigm has shifted to look more like, say, the poetry scene.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : darkbow - 3/29/2008 9:41 PM | Si, senor, yo no ... okay, it's been way too long since I've had to use any Spanish. But no, I didn't mean to exploit the poor writers. Heck, I'm one of them.
I think magazines and other forms of smaller publications are starting up for a lot of reasons. Some are started just for the love. Others are started out of desperation, writers who can't make it and decide to become editors, for one example. And I think there are a few who start up with pictures of big money in their heads, but that's rather foolish. I also think there are a few, with decent business plans, who are picturing money, but way way way down the road, probably with plans of branching into multiple publications and other forms of publishing, such as book publishing.
Mostly I think it's for the love. If not for the love, then publishing is the wrong business to go into ... why not make taco sauce or frisbees or something? There's probably a better, or at least an "already made," market for taco sauce or frisbees.
"Steven Spielberg and The Magic Box" upcoming at The Ranfurly Review.
"Peter Piker the Pankin Man" upcoming at Big Pulp
"Walking Between the Rain" at Every Day Fiction
|
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/29/2008 11:49 PM | round and round and round and round and round and...
have you guys not noticed that things go in cycles?
Someone isn't paying very close attention to the marketing world.
To be successful in business, find a need and fill it. Or create a need and fill it.
If there are no markets, then start up a magazine to fill it. Let people know it exists. If no one responses, use 'publicity and marketing' to convince them that they NEED it.
(how else do you think it's possible to make you want 15 different kinds of breakfast cereal and 30 different kinds of potato chips?)
So, Ty's right there are no markets, but that's a temporary situation.
And Nathan, that's why magazines are starting up. Because no one else is currently covering what will be a market before long. |
| Posted By : darkbow - 3/30/2008 12:09 AM | I'll rephrase a bit. It's not that there is absolutely no market, it's just that there's no market (or not enough markets) to pay for a writer to make a living at writing short fiction.
As for an individual publication, or publishing company, yes ... it is possible, through marketing, to build an audience, to create a segment within the larger market.
"Steven Spielberg and The Magic Box" upcoming at The Ranfurly Review.
"Peter Piker the Pankin Man" upcoming at Big Pulp
"Walking Between the Rain" at Every Day Fiction
|
| Posted By : erazmus - 3/30/2008 9:47 AM | darkbow said...
7 stories a week, or a story a day, 364 stories a year. At $40,000 a year, I'd need to make nearly $110 per story. With an average word count of 3,000 words per story, I'd need a little more than 27 cents per word.
Maybe that money doesn't sound too outrageous, but then I'd have to find 364 markets for all my stories. To be fair. I could maybe get by with only a couple of hundred markets, my thinking being I'd sell more than one story to a fair number of publications.
And that would mean I'd probably have to put in another 5 to 10 hours a week (a rough estimate) to find those markets, do rewrites, deal with my taxes, answer editors' e-mails, etc. etc.
And that's just making $40,000 a year.
Uh, Ty? 3000 words for 110 dollars comes out to, like, .04/wd. Twenty-seven cents a word would make you average 2410$ a story. Its not that hard, man.
Eventually you have enough stories to have a Collection out in book form. You don't need to be Ray Bradbury or Steven King to do this. Tim Curran, Jeff Van Pelt and many others have had a collection or two, some have done quite well.
Once you have done that, you have old work competeing on the bookshelf with Novels and self-help books, and you stop worryig whether Weird Tales pays you three cents a word or four, because now its all about how the collection sells. Paperback Royalties (5% of the cover price for the first 10000 copies, 7% after that, less a percentage withheld against returns -- which most writers will swear is at least fifty percent but is actually less.) If you sell 30000 out of 50000 paperback @ 6.99 per unit that is 13281 dollars, less 40% that they hold, good luck getting that paid out, is $7968.60. If you put 100K into the collection that is just under eight cents a word, all old work that you have all ready been paid for once.
Which would mean that you only have to earn $32031.40 off your new work this year.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : darkbow - 3/30/2008 4:32 PM | Oops! Mr. Turner, you are correct. I was typing on here and on a calculator at the same time and mixed my numbers up.
And I hadn't taken into consideration the idea of a collection. Still, though, even at $32,000 a year, it would be near impossible to make a living at writing only short fiction.
Not that one shouldn't write short fiction. Short stories have their own rewards for the writer and the reader.
"Steven Spielberg and The Magic Box" upcoming at The Ranfurly Review.
"Peter Piker the Pankin Man" upcoming at Big Pulp
"Walking Between the Rain" at Every Day Fiction
|
| Posted By : crystalwizard - 3/30/2008 5:40 PM | darkbow said...
And I hadn't taken into consideration the idea of a collection.
You hadn't? Hmmmm... Where's Jason when I need him... |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 3/30/2008 7:11 PM | | Just to let you guys know, Neil Clarke from Clarkesworld Magazine weighed in with his thoughts on magazine pay rates.
As few of you know, I've been a huge fan of the magazine ever since I read the Third Bear by Jeff Vandermeer, and I've been submitting work to them ever since, so having him share his thoughts on our little forum is a huge honor.
The guy is a class act, through and through.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : nathan - 3/30/2008 8:18 PM |
Clarke said...
There are some authors that we can't get at 10 cents per word. If we jumped to 25, it would definitely open some doors within that crowd, and yes, those people would definitely raise our visibility. Within the context of this thread this quote by Neil really jumped out at me--and I know were only dealing with speculation on our part because we don't know per se who he means...but it seems interesting.
There are (as we discuss these matters amongst our selves) authors of short stories who, even if directly solicited, wouldn't submit a story for less than quarter a word. The implication is they wouldn't put it in a slush pile on their own voliation either.
Who are these guys? If they're just pro authors looking for free marketing for their longer prose--why the quarter cut off? If they're not and they're actually making a go of it as short writers (and it would be inferred I would guess that if you won't even deign to play for less than .25 centsyou've had *some* kind of success. Yeah?) then why turn down cash money--ecspecially when solicitied directly?
Also he Neil says that if he did open the doors with that "crowd" then their visibility would be raised, which I think he's saying is a good thing.
So would this idea of paying more money to get at not just a better story, but a better "crowd" still be a viable model for an EDF (or 'EDF-like', whomever) or in the general climate that darkbow is putting forth.
Note: I'm a bit gun shy after being in some other unrelated threads so let me stress (probablly unnecessarily) that I mean this as a general, conversational question only.
Is it the general goal of the average SFReader writer to 'move up' to the company of a crowd that would only work for a .25 cent a word rate? If so at what point do you stop submitting--and even if solicited--to anyone who pays less. Do you do it in a big jump--one day you're taken the token payment and the next you're calculating the sale of your shorts in the thousands of dollars or do you start out dropping free. Then token. Then 1/2 cent, then 2-cent, then 10-cent, etc all.
I just got the feeling from reading that there could be some writers out there who've had a whole different experience at this short gig than some of us here.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." |
| Posted By : erazmus - 3/30/2008 8:58 PM | Nathan,
A conversation something like this several years ago lead to the creation of Jim Baen's Universe.
Here is the economics;
Author X started out, like most writers do, writing short stories. He was pretty good at it, but eventually moved on to writing novels because there was no money in writing short stuff and it seemed like the thing to do. As it turned out it was the thing to do, and his novels sold very well indeed. Well enough that his publisher signed him on to a multi-book contract with a nice three stage advance on each book adding up to a modest five figures per. It takes him three to four months to write out a novel, with another month on either end outlining and polishing/editing, with another couple of weeks after his editor goes over it.
All of this adds up to a nice living and a full time job writing, which is great as far as it goes. Only every now and then X gets an idea that is a little to small to make it as a novel, yet too self contained to work into an existing plotline. He'd like to turn a couple of these into short stories.
Unfortunatly, even though he's doing well from the writing, his lifestyle has kept up, he still has a morgage, college tuition for the kids, alimoney for the wife that left him when he was staying up all night for weeks on end writing while barely covering the bills with a crappy day job, etc etc, and writing short stories, while rewarding as hell on a personal level, takes more time per story length than writing novels does and the renumeration is far, far lower. Even his advance money works out to .20/word on a contracted novel, not considering what he gets down the road when the book pays out. He might make a sacrifice just to get the idea out of his head so he can get on with his work, but doing so too often is taking food out of the mouth of his daughter's college dean, so he doesn't produce much short fiction, if he can help it.
But his books sell well enough to make writing shorts an ill afforded luxury-- minimum of ten K hard back, one hundred K paper sales. Meaning he has a readership about three times minimum what the best circulated SF magazines get. So when he does produce a story, its a winfall for who ever puts it out, as about twenty percent of his readers pick up the magazine. Thats an increase of exposure for the market, at the expense of the author.
So now we have several magazines paying significantly more than the big three to established authors. This is to encourage more authors to write more short fiction while exposing the readers of said authors to the short fiction of other authors. No surprise the publishers of said magazines are in fact, book publishers for many of the authors as well. Top selling authors still take a loss in a strict time spent to money earned standing, but not so much they feel they are depriving their families. Readers are enthusiastic because not only do they get new stories by favorite writers in their favorite universes, but they get exposed to a whole bunch of other great writers at a minimal expense. And the writing really is better than the average "pro" magazines because, talent aside, this is the group of writers who have spent the most time and effort, and had the greatest success, developing audience pleasing writing skills. Otherwise they wouldn't have tens of thousands of consistent readers.
And hell yes, this is what I eventually want to be doing. You don't have to be a NYT bestseller to fall into this group either. A strong mid-lister sells well enough to have this dilemma.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 3/31/2008 6:29 AM |
nathan said...
Clarke said...
There are some authors that we can't get at 10 cents per word. If we jumped to 25, it would definitely open some doors within that crowd, and yes, those people would definitely raise our visibility. ...
Who are these guys? If they're just pro authors looking for free marketing for their longer prose--why the quarter cut off? If they're not and they're actually making a go of it as short writers (and it would be inferred I would guess that if you won't even deign to play for less than .25 centsyou've had *some* kind of success. Yeah?) then why turn down cash money--ecspecially when solicitied directly?
... Cost/benefit analysis. What else could they be doing with the time it would take to write that story, and in what way would the benefit from one activity over another?
I'm guessing we are talking authors here who don't NEED Clarkesworld, or other markets at that level; writers for whom, to be honest, even $0.25 per word may not be entirely exciting. Yes, there are such writers out there. But while they do write short stories, that isn't where the majority of their income derives, and they are sufficiently well-known that magazine appearances wouldn't increase their exposure one iota.
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 3/31/2008 7:02 AM | By the way - Jordan, I'd happily switch to take a LiveJournal RSS feed instead of email, but nowhere either on EDF or on Livejournal have I actually found such a feed.
Apologies if I am being a complete idiot, but can you tell me how I go about finding and setting up the feed?
Brian Dolton
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : DAWaverly - 3/31/2008 10:06 AM | tchernabyelo said...
By the way - Jordan, I'd happily switch to take a LiveJournal RSS feed instead of email, but nowhere either on EDF or on Livejournal have I actually found such a feed.
Apologies if I am being a complete idiot, but can you tell me how I go about finding and setting up the feed?
I can help. I had trouble finding it as well--because it was staring me in the face. 
Go to any EDF page and look for the big orange GET FEED button. Click it. Slap self on forehead.
Don't know about getting a feed into LJ. I am not a LJ user...
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction |
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 3/31/2008 11:07 AM | I have clicked that button, and can find no way of making it feed to Livejournal - only to things like My Yahoo, or Google, which is not what I'm looking for.
I read a few RSS feeds in livejournal but I couldn't find any reference there to Every Day Fiction (or various permutations thereof).
Doubtless I am missing something simple and obvious.
Brian Dolton
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 3/31/2008 1:06 PM |
tchernabyelo said...By the way - Jordan, I'd happily switch to take a LiveJournal RSS feed instead of email, but nowhere either on EDF or on Livejournal have I actually found such a feed. Apologies if I am being a complete idiot, but can you tell me how I go about finding and setting up the feed?
I believe that you can add an RSS feed as a "friend" on LiveJournal. To get our RSS feed, you can either click on the orange "Get Feed" icon on the right side of the magazine, or, if you use IE 7, there is an orange "feed discovery" button, which will light up if the site you're on has an RSS feed. Click it, and it will take you to our feed.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : tchernabyelo - 4/2/2008 7:13 AM | It seems one needs a Paid account on LJ to achieve this, which I don't have.
Brian Dolton
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming) |
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/2/2008 1:12 PM | Oy. Yeah, that sucks about LJ. They stopped offering tons of features on their free accounts.
I actually use Google Reader for all my blog reading (reader.google.com). It's just awesome. Makes my blog reading really easy (I follow about 30 blogs). Take a look at it. It's free!
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : Nicholas - 4/3/2008 3:03 AM | OY! That's my problem! I have free LJ, too, and that's I'll bet that's why I was never able to add SFReader's Webringo ring to my page! Jason, are you reading this? That's what the deal is!
Jason, does signing up for Google Reader and adding EDF count for EDF's feed quota?
|
| Posted By : Jordan Lapp - 4/3/2008 10:40 AM | Nicholas, It certainly does.... and I swear by Google Reader. It's totally easy to use, and it even does stuff like analyzing the blogs you currently read and suggest other, similar blogs. I could never keep up with the blogs I read without it.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
|
| Posted By : Nicholas - 4/3/2008 6:04 PM | | Jordan, I meant! I was addressing Jason with the first question, and Jordan with the second, but slipped and addressed both questions to Jason. Jordan, you correctly interpreted my intent anyway. Gee, my mind was sort of mixed-up last night...
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