The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.sfreader.com/default.aspx?f=19&m=18598
| Posted By : Stranger - 7/9/2006 9:23 PM |  I'm working on a story that takes place in the not-so-near future, and I need a force field, or a cold plasma wall, or something that would at least stop a car. I'd like actual hard science (electromagnetics?) and not just something created out of handwavium. It wouldn't even have to stop the car in it's tracks, just slow it down gradually. I've read several articles regarding real plasma walls, and a fluke experiment at 3M, but I don't really understand which ones work, and what would be truly plausible in the near future.
Any ideas, or references? |
| Posted By : Rob Santa - 7/10/2006 12:55 AM | I think we're looking at more than just a gravity problem. A moving vehicle is a great deal of mass that has accumulated a terrific amount of kinetic energy. When a car crashes into a wall, it transfers the kinetic energy into the wall; if the wall has a larger mass, then it is able to absorb the energy without moving. If it does not have enough mass, pieces of the wall fly off. Some of the energy turns into heat, some turns into sound (these are not significant amounts of the energy).
So, what if you could transform the kinetic energy into mass? It would take very little mass to equal the energy of a moving vehicle (I'm thinking a few atoms' worth). This is the opposite of a nuclear explosion. Instead of a force field, could there be a fusion field? Energy tranforms into some small mass (possibly even neutrinos that fly harmlessly away). Small amounts of energy would not be affected by the field (light, sound, even a walking person could pass through it) but large amounts would trigger the transformation (a bullet could not get through if fired from a gun; only if tossed by a child).
Hmmm, how to make that fusion field? Of course, there's always the Larry Niven/Frank Herbert approach: simply say it is so and to hell with the explanations. You want an indestructible spaceship made out of a single molecule? Sure, why not? How'd it get made? Who cares?
Now that I think of it, the Holtzman Field in Dune was similar to this energy-robbing fusion field. Bullets could not pass through it (nor any other fast-moving object) which is why a slow-motion swordplay developed. Fast parry, slow attack to get through the personal fields. I don't recall if it was ever explained (don't think so), but Dune is ready for another reading. I'll see what Frank said.
In the meantime, I'll think about space-time dilation. Bend the space-time universe at just that point (not with a black hole - too much bending) and the energy would have to go all the way around instead of just over the short distance it appears to the naked eye. Would rob it of most of its punch. Would do a good job of keeping the neighbors out of your yard, too. Simply walking through the field would do all kinds of nasty things to a body.
Oh boy, oh boy. I love a challenge.
Rob Santa |
| Posted By : STForstner - 7/10/2006 11:31 AM | | I don't recall any explanation in any of the Dune books. The field just was, and as a reader I accepted that. I think the reason for such easy acceptance is that there were many fantastic things in the books based on technology I could easily grasp, or that was similar to something else I had seen. The fast parry/slow attack blended in so smoothly that, while I marvelled at it, I never wondered exactly how such a thing could work.
|
| Posted By : erazmus - 7/10/2006 12:10 PM | The topic heading for this thread is driving me nuts!
I keep invisioning a writer posting such a request on a web-board . . .and getting a box in the mail containing a working force-field generator and power supply.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine #9 Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises |
| Posted By : Rob Santa - 7/10/2006 2:03 PM | Now that I've given it a morning's thought (and come closer to utilizing a black hole's gravity to bend the space-time - still not coming together, though) may I ask why this particular piece of your story needs to be explained in detail? How does the explanation advance the story or bring about the resolution of the main conflict? If it doesn't, then I feel it is not an integral part of the story. Sure, it's SF, but having a scientific explanation is not what makes good SF, I feel. A good story, yes, with grounded science. There's no need to go into all the little details. We don't need to explain how a computer works to present one in a story. Can you do without?
Rob Santa |
| Posted By : Scott M. Sandridge - 7/11/2006 3:24 PM | Weren't traditional force fields based on the manipulation of kinetic energy?
That reminds me of a character I rolled up for the old Marvel Universe RPG. I made him up as a 4'-tall impish-looking fellow. Got lucky on the character generation roll and ended up with Energy Reflection. Of course, I had to pick a specific energy type for him to reflect.
I smiled at the GM and said, "Kinetic energy?"
Suffice it to say, the little runt eventually went toe-to-toe against The Juggernaught. They couldn't do crap to each other, but several city blocks got devastated.
Which lich fell in the ditch? |
| Posted By : Stranger - 7/11/2006 3:42 PM | Thanks everybody. I think I needed the feedback time just to get my head in the right place.
You're right, Rob.  t's not so much the explanation, as the realism I'm hoping for. In truth, I'm actually just wanting to know what to call it so my ignorance isn't so on display as to cause me the loss of a sale.
Given time I realized that was the case. Even if it is in the near future it only has to be plausible.
PS I don't really know how a computer works, and yes, Erazmus, I would like that actual forcefield shipped ASAP-- preferably overnight.
Gracias
|
| Posted By : Robert M. Blevins - 7/16/2006 3:54 AM | Stranger said: "It wouldn't even have to stop the car in it's tracks, just slow it down gradually."
Not a force field for this. An EMP effects device on the car's electronics would be more realistic, perhaps.
"Don't give up reaching for the stars...
just build yourself a bigger ladder." |
| Posted By : Rob Santa - 7/16/2006 9:56 AM | Ooooh, I like that idea. Gonna steal it for a story of my own. Now, how to make a portable EMP-gun that doesn't get knocked out when you pull the trigger...
Rob Santa |
| Posted By : Edward Knight - 7/16/2006 4:31 PM | How about a metal trash can lid? That should do the trick. (Gotta be metal, Rubbermaid won't do.)
Seriously, I agree with the others that suggest that the field needs little or no explanation. In cases like this, less is more.
Now if this futuristic car uses maglev technology, then some type of electromagnetic field might do the trick. But how many people carry around a device that creates an electromagnetic field just in case they are being run down by a maglev car?
The problem with a force field is that different types of fields would be needed to stop different types of objects.. An electomagnetic field might stop a maglev car, but it would not repel a metal bicycle. It might attract it.
Even if you had a field that would stop a bullet, I bet I would not stop laser light. It just seems that a force field designed to stop all types of matter and energy would be vitually impossible to produce. And having a force field that only stops maglev cars would be rather impractical.
I suppose a device that would stop all solid matter would be nice and have a practical use. Maybe nanotechnolgy could be used to produce a wall of some extra strong atomically bonded material between the victim and the car by using whatever substance is in the air around us. It would take some darn fast nanobots, though.
Maybe it's a matter of freezing. If there is enough humidity in the air there might be a device that could quickly form a wall of ice strong enough to stop a car.
Yeah, I'm tired.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com |
| Posted By : Dragon Angel - 7/16/2006 10:09 PM | >And having a force field that only stops maglev cars would be rather impractical.
Might be useful at a stop sign. ;)
Several of these solutions seem like if they work, then they'd probably kill the driver as there Aorta becomes detached from their heart. What I mean is that if they decelerate too fast than they are dead anyway.
read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle. |
| Posted By : Edward Knight - 7/17/2006 9:18 AM | Yes, but we are talking about futuristic cars. Surely a society that can come up with a force field has come up with a car in which the driver would survive a sudden impact or stop. I guess a lot depends on the speed of the car.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com |
| Posted By : Stranger - 7/18/2006 8:32 PM | Thanks again, everybody.
Robert, EMP is perfect. It also hints at a number of dramatic effects within the car as it shuts down.
For future reference: I went to youtube.com and discovered something (designed by, I believe General Dynamics but not sure) called "The TROPHY system." The defense contractor actually has a commercal for this thing. It somehow knocks out missiles before they get within a certain range of a moving vehicle. They're marketing it as a force field, but it's not like you could bounce a baseball off of it or anything. Check it out. |
| Posted By : R David Skinner - 7/26/2006 11:49 AM | | Stranger,
I was reading in front of the Science channel a few Sundays ago, and they were airing a program on dark matter / dark energy. They think it's plausible to find and channel this in the near future. Dark energy is so mysterious at this point that folks in the know would find it intriguing and folks out of the know would dwell more on their own ignorance than that of the writer.
As for the kinetic energy problem: can the device be portable? The new polimers they're using to collect solar energy could conceivably be altered/innovated in the next few years to absorb kinetic energy for such a device - even to the point that it could assist in powering the vehicle.
There's also experimental work with EMP technology built to knock out the car's electronics. What about a satalite transmitted frequency that locks the car up?
Wonderful lot of possibilities to ponder. Thanks for the interesting topic!
Independent Scholar, Philosopher, Reviewer |
| Posted By : beastmaster - 7/27/2006 12:25 PM | The Forever War also mentioned such a device, but since it is created near the end of the war, several centuries after the protagonist is born, all he can do is say that the science involved is so advanced that he has no hope of ever understanding it. It is called a "static field" or something like that, and worked like the force fields in Dune, but this version mentions some interesting side effects. Since it stops anything that moves beyond a certain speed limit, it also stops light and any other form of electro-magnetic emmission that travels at the speed of light. Therefore, it creates a pitch-black sphere around the generator, and after a couple of minutes it becomes so cold that people need special suits to survive in the environment. But not even an atomic explosion can penetrate the field (although spears thrown from outside can)
Being original is cpying what no one has copied before |
| Posted By : B C bell - 7/28/2006 8:46 PM | You realize of course that you all have practically brainstormed ideas for new stories altogether. Perhaps this "static field" of The Forever War was dark matter. What is the effect of EMP's on dark matter, and vice versa. A plasma field creates heat; if dark matter creates cold, what happens whenj they're combined.
This is potentially great stuff.
|
|