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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/9/2008 2:31 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's a rather bizarre question someone recently asked me:
 
"Do you think that if I had my pineal gland removed that it would protect me from psychic attack?"
 
Yes. It was a serious question. From a person who was seriously concerned about it.
I'm very interested in seeing what folks here think. Just opinions, please. I really don't want to start a debate over it, simply a friendly banter of speculation. smilewinkgrin
 
Oh, and I'd be obliged also to have links to information on the pineal/psychic connection if anyone knows any. Thanks.


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darkbow
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   Posted 5/9/2008 3:16 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But it couldn't it also leave you open to psychic attack?

Been a looooong time since I've done any reading on the pineal gland/out-of-body-experiences/psychic phenomenon, etc., etc. But I seem to remember the pineal gland was potentially responsible for helping bring about out-of-body experiences and other personal psychic abilities/experiences.

So, without one, wouldn't a person be MORE vulnerable to psychic attack?

And before I get laughed at ... yes, I realize all this is just speculative talk. I'm a speculative writer.


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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:06 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The question seemed to be asked from the standpoint of the pineal being responsible for vulnerability as much as for such powers. So, I don't think you're really offbase at all. Within the logic of the question itself, that's a poignantly valid question. And an interesting conjecture . . .


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/9/2008 6:22 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I dunno about protecting them from psychic whatever, but it sure wouldn't make them healthy if they did that. Here's a good info page on what it does:

www.becomehealthynow.com/article/bodyendocrine/737/

Pineal Gland Functions

Hormones

The pineal gland contains a number of peptides, including GnRH, TRH, and vasotocin, along with a number of important neurotransmitters such as somatostatin, norepinephrine, serotonin, and histamine. The major pineal hormone, however, is melatonin, a derivative of the amino acid tryptophan. Melatonin was first discovered because it lightens amphibian skin, an effect opposite to that of melanocyte-stimulating hormone of the anterior pituitary. Secretion of melatonin is enhanced whenever the sympathetic nervous system is stimulated. Of greater interest, however, is the fact that secretion increases soon after an animal is placed in the dark; the opposite effect takes place immediately upon exposure to light. Its major action, well documented in animals, is to block the secretion of GnRH by the hypothalamus and of gonadotropins by the pituitary. While it was long thought that a decrease in melatonin secretion heralded the onset of puberty, this hypothesis cannot be supported by studies in humans. It is possible that the pineal contains an as yet unidentified hormone that serves that function.

Melotonin is the only hormone secreted by the pineal gland. (The pineal gland is a tiny endocrine gland situated at the centre of the brain.) Melatonin was discovered in 1958 by Aaron B. Lerner and other researchers working at Yale University. Melatonin is produced in humans, other mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians. It is present in very small amounts in the human body.

Melatonin was previously known to cause the skins of amphibians to blanch, but its functions in mammals remained uncertain until research discoveries in the 1970s and '80s suggested that it regulates both sleeping cycles and the hormonal changes that usher in sexual maturity during adolescence. The pineal gland's production of melatonin varies both with the time of day and with age; production of melatonin is dramatically increased during the nighttime hours and falls off during the day, and melatonin levels are much higher in children under age seven than in adolescents and are lower still in adults. Melatonin apparently acts to keep a child's body from undergoing sexual maturation, since sex hormones such as luteotropin, which play a role in the development of sexual organs, emerge only after melatonin levels have declined. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that children with tumors of the pineal gland often reach sexual maturity unusually early in life, presumably because the pineal's production of melatonin has been hampered. Melatonin also seems to play an important role in regulating sleeping cycles; test subjects injected with the hormone become sleepy, suggesting that the increased production of melatonin coincident with nightfall acts as a fundamental mechanism for making people sleepy. With dawn the pineal gland stops producing melatonin, and wakefulness and alertness ensue. The high level of melatonin production in young children may explain their tendency to sleep longer than adults.

In mammals other than humans melatonin possibly acts as a breeding and mating cue, since it is produced in greater amounts in response to the longer nights of winter and less so during summer. Animals who time their mating or breeding to coincide with favorable seasons (such as spring) may depend on melatonin production as a kind of biological clock that regulates their reproductive cycles on the basis of the length of the solar day.


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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/9/2008 6:34 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Well, if you're dead, I assume that protects you from psychic attack.

Another article I read indicated an extremely high incidence of cancer in persons who had been inflicted with a pinealectomy. Seems there's a link between numerous cancers and Melotonin - I mean that higher levels of M tend to pair with lower incidence of cancer. That was very interesting.

Also, imaging studies show a marked increase of heat/bloodflow in the pineal gland during meditation. Found that very interesting as well.

Also, those who practice/follow Kundalini focus their chi to balance between the pituitary and the pineal. In Chinese medicine, the kidneys are the powerhouse of the body because they have the highest bloodflow among glands. The pineal is second behind the kidneys. According to a couple different articles I read.

Also, the pineal is gaining more attention in relation to mental illness - especially schizophrenia.

Fascinating stuff! Thanks for the link and info.

"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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Despiciblus
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   Posted 5/9/2008 9:59 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In my opinion psychic phenomenon does not exist, so the person’s question has no validity. I’m not trying to argue here, I’m just stating what I believe to be true. :p

Allen
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Lyn
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   Posted 5/9/2008 10:45 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Allen, define psychic phenomenon. Do you believe that brainwaves exist?


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Despiciblus
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   Posted 5/9/2008 11:12 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Of course I believe in brain waves, but I’m skeptical about claims that connect brain waves with “psychic” powers. I’m also fairly certain that the word “psychic” is intended to describe supernatural phenomena: ESP, telepathy, clairvoyance, ect. I don’t believe in those things. Again, I’m not trying to argue here, just expressing an opinion.


:p
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Rob Santa
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   Posted 5/9/2008 11:27 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wholeheartedly believe in psychic abilities, to the point that I also believe we all possess them. Ever been thinking about someone and the phone rang? Guess who was at the other end?

We all have them (as well as protection from anything that might be considered threatening). We also have all of these abilities in various strengths. Some people have forward vision, others can delve into a person's thoughts and memories. Don't laugh, I'm a firm believer. So, how would mutilating an already functioning body that provides both pretection and ability improve matters?



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Anthony G Williams
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   Posted 5/10/2008 6:03 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't believe in any psychic powers. I think that when people believe that they've experienced something like guessing who was on the phone, it's just a coincidence, a function of the normal operation of the laws of probability. They remember the coincidences and forget the times when their guesses were wrong.
 
People generally underrate (in fact, don't understand) probability - they feel that any coincidence must have some significance. I don't believe that it does. For instance, on one holiday in Madeira many years ago, I was in a cafe on a remote part of the island, and in walked somebody I knew slightly from work. The next year, I was in a hotel bar in Tangier, and in walked the same man. Significant? Nope - just coincidence. These kinds of things happen all the time.
 
 


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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/10/2008 9:53 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I disbelieve in coincidence as arbitrary/random/purposeless. I believe in powers of the mind because I have experienced them repeatedly myself and witnessed them repeatedly in others. In my estimation it is more related to animal instinct than anything like magic. It's a matter of being open to subtle energies. Being animals of a higher order, why is it we lack the simple facility to sense coming danger such as earthquakes? We lack the facility because it is trained out of us.  Because we are trained to distrust instinct and intuition. Almost all psychic phenomena I've encountered have been directly linked to intuitive intelligence and the development of such through meditation, concentration, and visualization. It's mostly a matter of people either ignoring their senses or rationalizing them.

As for the idea of psychic attack . . . I only give it a little credence because someone close to me has bipolar disease, and any time he's manic and within about 100 yards of me I can feel his mania like too much static in the air. And if he gets angry at me, I can feel that as though he were flicking me in the temple repeatedly - physical pain inflicted by psychic distress. And all the disbelief I can muster only changes the interpretation of the event, not the event itself.

"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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H.P. Lovesauce
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   Posted 5/12/2008 12:07 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To quote Buckaroo Banzai, "Don't tug on that. You don't know what it's connected to."
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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/13/2008 2:55 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

This was a fascinating subject to research (in the literary sense, not the scientific). Evidently, the pineal gland can be removed without killing the patient. However, it tends to have a great many negative and often devastating side-effects. It comes up a great deal in schizophrenia. It is suggested as a causal gland involved in both transcendence and madness, hallucination and vision (fine line?).

A century ago it was believed to be about as useful as the tonsils or appendix. Now it is quite respected as a vital gland operationally responsible for circadian rhythms. That makes it a major factor in SAD (something to look into if you have seasonal blues).

And lots more.

"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 5/14/2008 3:09 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Back to the original question:
MysticWino said...
 "Do you think that if I had my pineal gland removed that it would protect me from psychic attack?"
 
-  No.
 
-  Those who believe in psychic attack can follow any of many-many religious or metaphysical traditions to protect against it.  (Those who don't wouldn't be asking such a question.) 
 
-  Removing the pineal to protect against psychic attack would be a little like removing your eyes to avoid physical attack.  It wouldn't stop the act, only alter your perception of it. 


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Keralen
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   Posted 5/14/2008 9:18 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Rob Mancebo said...
Back to the original question:
MysticWino said...
 "Do you think that if I had my pineal gland removed that it would protect me from psychic attack?"
 
-  No.
 
-  Those who believe in psychic attack can follow any of many-many religious or metaphysical traditions to protect against it.  (Those who don't wouldn't be asking such a question.) 
 
-  Removing the pineal to protect against psychic attack would be a little like removing your eyes to avoid physical attack.  It wouldn't stop the act, only alter your perception of it. 

Yah, but isn't your perception of it the whole point? If someone goes woogy woogy in the forest and you're not there to hear it, do they make a noise?  :p
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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/14/2008 10:59 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd rather the woogy woogy were here and I were in the forest . . .


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"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 5/14/2008 11:41 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Keralen said...
Rob Mancebo said...
Back to the original question:
 
-  Removing the pineal to protect against psychic attack would be a little like removing your eyes to avoid physical attack.  It wouldn't stop the act, only alter your perception of it. 

Yah, but isn't your perception of it the whole point? If someone goes woogy woogy in the forest and you're not there to hear it, do they make a noise?  :p

-  Nope.  A man blinding himself to 'avoid being slapped' has mostly just limited his ability to defend or retaliate.  It doesn't keep him from being slapped.  He just doesn't see it coming.  This may allow him to live in somewhat comfortable ignorance inbetween slaps, but I consider it a poor trade-off. 
-  I don't consider trading freedom to act for imaginary-security a positive step. 


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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/14/2008 12:42 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Rob, good point.
But what if the attacks are imaginary? Even if real . . . attack via imagination. So you cut out the third eye and the attacks should cease because the imagination, more or less, has been removed.
 
It's like ripping your eyes out to avoid migraines, maybe. But that won't altogether stop the electrical misfires that cause the pain. Same with the pineal?


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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 5/14/2008 8:38 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...
Rob, good point.
But what if the attacks are imaginary? Even if real . . . attack via imagination. So you cut out the third eye and the attacks should cease because the imagination, more or less, has been removed.
 
It's like ripping your eyes out to avoid migraines, maybe. But that won't altogether stop the electrical misfires that cause the pain. Same with the pineal?
 
-   Yet the gland isn't the 'third eye'.  The gland is considered related to the third eye, but then it's related to everything else in the physical glandular system, too. 
 
-  The blocking of imagination is an effective protection against many psychic attacks.  A non-physical attack can't frighten you if you believe its not real. 
 
-  'Monster in the closet' never bothers Dad because Dad 'knows' its not real.  A little kid might lose sleep over fearing it, though.   
------------Okay, now we're stepping over the boundery------follow at your own risk smilewinkgrin -
 
  There is there and here is here.  Spirits of the 2nd plane(plane of ghosts) have no physical power in the 1st(physical reality).  The 'plane of ghosts' is, more or less, just that.  To do more than impotently 'blow in your ear', they need to tap into the earthly energy of a host.  That comes from the living.  So, if they can find someone susceptible to their influance, they can scare that person into feeding them.  Or they can hang on that person, dragging them into the emotional state they most identify with (Anger or depression).  Their machinations can only strongly affect those who are 'sensitive'.  Un-believers or people who knowingly block them out, are much less affected. 
 
-  First thing you'll usually hear from a priest about 'ghosts' or possession is, "ignore it".  That's not them putting their head into the sand.  That's good advice.  By not becoming frightened, the (I'll call it a 'tormenting spirit' for lack of a less generic title) the tormenting spirit is deprived of what it wants--fear energy--and will often leave.  But once you're scared, you're pumping energy all over the place like a bon fire.  You're feeding it.  If it is strong enough to manipulate physical energy, you are giving it the power to hurt you.   
 
-  So then, the answer to the question of, 'what if the attacks are imaginary'? :
-  The human animal, living in the 1st plane(physical reality) is the master.  So long as control is maintained, nothing from the 2nd plane can do you harm.  Attacks can be thwarted either through denial(stoping the flow of energy) or through superior will (taking control of the psychic situation the way any priest of any culture would.) 
 
-  Removing an intrigal part of the human glandular system is simply creating a loss to the overall biological machine that is the human body.
 
-  As you said,  something like removing your eyes to stop a migrain.  shocked
 
 
 
 


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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/15/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Rob,

I love this discussion. Thanks for chiming in.

Those 'ghosts' are something I think Rick Jarrow refers to as 'wrathful deities'. In some forms of Buhddism, they teach mendicants to either block them out by 'inflating' their own auras, or for the more advanced to embrace them in complete compassion. Numerous esoteric schools of thought agree with your assessment that they feed on the strongest, most accessible energies. Consequently, such spirits tend to gather around those with a great deal of psychic energy according to the nature of that energy. Thus a person who is filled with compassion is often surrounded by beneficent spirits, and a person full of rage and hatred is surrounded by 'demons' or wrathful spirits. Unfortunately for the latter, these relationships often amount to a psychic feedback loop. And these a bear to break! And the matter of feedback loops brings us back to the pineal gland . . . As with the entirety of the brain, the pineal is subject to the chemical play of emotions. A constant barrage of negative emotions tends to lead to either depression or mania, the main difference being whether the rage or grief is projected inward or externalized. So this brings up for me the question of whether the above two feedback loops describe the same phenomenon from different perspectives, whether the first is an ignorant superstition to describe the latter, or whether each describes a different aspect of an inextricable pair of parallel phenomena.

"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 5/15/2008 12:33 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...

Rob,

I love this discussion. Thanks for chiming in.

-  No problem.  Not the sort of topic one gets to discuss very often.  Actually I'm long out of practice. 

 

Thus a person who is filled with compassion is often surrounded by beneficent spirits, and a person full of rage and hatred is surrounded by 'demons' or wrathful spirits.

 

-  That is my experience.  I was at a 'New Age' fair once and a psychic did a reading on me.  She got a very confused look and asked,  "Where did all these Eastern spirits come from?  They're all around you?"  At the time I was religiously meditating, and practicing Chi Kung. 

I know sensitive people who need to be 'cleansed' all the time.  They just pick up hitch-hikeing spirits of anger and sorrow all the time. 

 

Unfortunately for the latter, these relationships often amount to a psychic feedback loop. And these a bear to break! And the matter of feedback loops brings us back to the pineal gland . . . As with the entirety of the brain, the pineal is subject to the chemical play of emotions.

-  Yes, a very nasty circle.  The quickest, easiest solution for these people is to take up the control of their life.  There are great meditative rituals and techniques to allow people to do this (with or without religious attatchment). 

-  Then the question must always arise (for an active mind), 'Do the techniques simply work because the person is placing their mind into a more controlled state, or are they really casting out external influance?'    Of course the answer is--'if it works, does it matter?' 

 A constant barrage of negative emotions tends to lead to either depression or mania, the main difference being whether the rage or grief is projected inward or externalized. So this brings up for me the question of whether the above two feedback loops describe the same phenomenon from different perspectives, whether the first is an ignorant superstition to describe the latter, or whether each describes a different aspect of an inextricable pair of parallel phenomena. 

 

-  I believe the two describe the same phenomina.  (But then there's always room for a variety of opinions.) 



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Charles Gramlich
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   Posted 5/16/2008 11:01 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, as Crystalwizard said, you "do not" want to remove your pineal gland. As for psychic phenomenon, so far there just isn't any good scientific evidence for the existence of ESP, psychok