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RHFay
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   Posted 5/6/2008 8:20 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

After having read about the form in Terrie Leigh Relf's The Poet's Workshop - and Beyond, I decided to experiment with cinquains.  Here are a few I composed recently, following the 2-4-6-8-2 format.  I don't know if they are "ideal" cinquains by any means, but I was a bit happy with the results, considering I just started experimenting with the form:

Signs Before the Fall

Augur
tosses old bones
to read battle-omens
and proclaims a heart-rending doom -
defeat.


Sword of Light

Bright blade
engraved with charms,
forged from mystical steel,
may only draw blood to spread peace,
not war.


Cosmic Ship of Dreams

Pure thought
powers this craft
across the vast cosmos.
It sails from star to star as time's
tide ebbs.

***


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/6/2008 11:10 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Fascinating. I've heard of the form, but never tried it. A few suggestions below . . . and adherence to form is not nearly as interesting or useful as how well you violate it. Besides, what ideal ever put bread on the table?
RHFay said...

After having read about the form in Terrie Leigh Relf's The Poet's Workshop - and Beyond, I decided to experiment with cinquains.  Here are a few I composed recently, following the 2-4-6-8-2 format.  I don't know if they are "ideal" cinquains by any means, but I was a bit happy with the results, considering I just started experimenting with the form:

Signs Before the Fall

Augur
tosses old bones
to read battle-omens
and proclaims a heart-rending doom -
defeat.
Love this one as is

Sword of Light

Bright blade
engraved with charms,
forged from mystical steel,
may only draw blood to spread peace,  I think it might work better thus: may draw blood only to spread peace
not war. I like this fine. An alternative might be: no war - this is a more powerful statement of the intent, but only slightly


Cosmic Ship of Dreams

Pure thought
powers this craft
across the vast cosmos.  Good as it is. Might consider "our vast cosmos" just to bring it home to the reader.
It sails from star to star as time's
tide ebbs.

*** I really like these. Pardon my graffitti if it sits ill with you. Just trying to make suggestions for improvement. Best of luck with them. I think they're very publishable as seque pieces for many S&S publications - as effective as illustrations. Which might enhance their marketability . . . .


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RHFay
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   Posted 5/6/2008 11:51 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ha Ha! Guess which one was seen as weak and an example of "all tell, no show" by the "literati wannabe"? Yep, number one! Kind of proves my point about the apparent subjectivity of opinions regarding poetry, doesn't it?

I definitely like the suggestion of changing the "the" to "our" in the line "across the vast cosmos". It may indeed give it a slightly personal touch for the reader. And after taking a couple looks at "Sword of Light", I think I get your point about moving the "only". I may have to adjust them on my web site. As a matter of fact, I'm sure I will.

As for publishing these particular examples, I think I blew my chances at having them accepted by most places by posting them. It would have to be a place that doesn't mind material that's appeared on personal web sites, blogs, and fora.

I like following the 2-4-6-8-2 format, at least for now. It gives me a basic backbone to work on. Apparently, Adelaide Crapsey, the inventor of the American cinquain, felt the form should be in the 2-4-6-8-2 format as well as have a "twist" or "turn". I wasn't sure if the "turn" or "twist" was strong enough in each, especially "Cosmic Ship of Dreams", but I was still happy enough with how they turned out.

Thanks for the feedback.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
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   Posted 5/7/2008 12:14 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...

I think they're very publishable as seque pieces for many S&S publications - as effective as illustrations. Which might enhance their marketability . . . .

Oh, you devil! devil   smilewinkgrin   Yeah, go ahead, plant ideas for visuals in my head.  Once I start thinking about it, my mind won't let go of the idea.  Now I have the image of an old hand tossing knucklebones into a circle in the sand. 

And then there's the image of an armoured paladin brandishing his holy sword.  Ooo, I really like that one.

And when I have so many other illustrations I should be working on (not to mention more dark poetry). smhair

 


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
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von Darkmoor
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   Posted 5/7/2008 1:19 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting, RH - thanks!

and I agree - as effective as an illustration


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~~~~~~~~~~
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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/7/2008 2:33 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Since you brought up the Turn, I thought I'd refresh my memory on Volta theory. Figured maybe others might benefit as well:

VOLTA: The turn in thought -- from question to answer, problem to solution -- that occurs at the beginning of the Sestet in the Italian (Petrarchan) Sonnet. The volta sometimes occurs in the Shakespearean (English) Sonnet between the twelfth and thirteenth lines. The volta is routinely marked at the beginning of line 9 (It. S.) or 13 (Eng. S.) by "but," "yet," or "and yet"                ---"A Handbook to Literature" ninth Ed. Harmon & Holman

Wish I had my Abrams - ironically enough, my prof borrowed it and has yet to return it.

The volta or 'turn' really is as simple as a change in perspective. This can be as subtle as problem/solution or as jarring as objective/subjective. It all depends on the need of the poem. Many of my own 'turns' move from personal to social, internalized to external, or romance to pragmatism. The classic volta went from general to specific and was usually used for a rhetorical stance - either to reaffirm or disprove the opening subject/topic/stance/thesis. That tends not to hold for contemporary audiences in general.

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Bitter Irony
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   Posted 5/15/2008 2:31 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was about to mention the Volta, but I see MysticWino has beaten me to it!

In tanka, the technique is called "pivot." Since I'm used to approaching cinquain from the tanka form, I was a little surprised not to see a change in perspective or unexpected turn at the end of these cinquain. For example, in "Signs Before the Fall," the final line doesn't deliver a punch because "heart-rending doom" has already told the reader what to expect. It's not about specific technique so much as good story-telling; don't give away the ending before the final line! :-)

I third the comment about illustrations. These would be lovely as "taiga" of sorts!

My favorite of the three is "Cosmic Ship of Dreams." It's a bit more open to interpretation than the other two, and the ending comes as more of a surprise.

All three are great for first attempts. The cinquain form demands a lot of subtlety, and you've done well at choosing what each poem should illustrate.

~Bitter Irony

P.S. I don't know how closely you want to follow the form, but something that frequently comes up regarding cinquain is the use of title as a "sixth line" of sorts. Instead of simply highlighting the main idea of the cinquain, the title often adds another image, or another level of meaning.


From even the greatest of horrors, Irony is seldom absent.
~H.P. Lovecraft, The Shunned House
 
And here I begin my foray into the dark and deadly waters of e-zine editing...
 
 

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RHFay
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   Posted 5/15/2008 4:36 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Granted, what I know currently about cinquains comes from Terrie Leigh Relf's recent poetry workshop book and a few things I read on-line, but I was under the impression that the final turn in a Crapsey-style cinquain occurs in the final fifth line or immediately before it. That's why I felt justified in having the turn in "Signs Before the Fall" in the line "and proclaims a heart-rending doom".

Perhaps I'm mistaken, and perhaps I am misinterpretting the form, but this seems to be the same old problem with the rules of forms and definitions.

You always seem to find somebody operating under a different definition or different rules from what you are trying to follow.

I think there is some surprise in "Sword of Light". That one seems to be getting quite the varied response, but some seem to get the irony of a weapon spreading peace. I think the idea of a weapon spreading peace is a bit of a turn, and a timely subject as well.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
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   Posted 5/15/2008 5:00 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I will admit that I have been working on strengthening the "turn" in my cinquains. However, I find it easiest to have a strong (or at least "creepy") turn in my horror-themed cinquains. Something about a horror/supernatural theme fits best with the concept of a "turn". (Maybe I'm just better at writing dark cinquains.)

I have found that the "turn" will either be in the last fifth line, or the one immediately before it. It depends on how each individual poem comes together.

Of course, I wonder if one person's unexpected twist might be another person's obvious turn-of-events, a "dud" instead of a "bang", as it were.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
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   Posted 5/15/2008 5:07 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm...I wonder if "keen blade" would actually be better in "Sword of Light" than "bright blade", to give it more of a sense of sharpness and possible lethality:

Sword of Light

Keen blade
engraved with charms,
forged from mystical steel,
may draw blood only to spread peace,
not war.

I think I actually like this better, since "Sword of Light" already has the idea of implied brightness (running with the idea of the title as the "sixth line").


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 5/15/2008 5:26 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Irony said...
I third the comment about illustrations. These would be lovely as "taiga" of sorts!

What?  They would be lovely as northern coniferous forests covering vast expanses of North America and Eurasia? shocked    How did you get forests out of those cinquains? smilewinkgrin
 
Seriously, I actually composed a haiga of sorts and didn't even really know it.  I have a scifaiku with an accompanying illustration in the current issue of Scifaikuest.  I composed a scifaiku to go with an illustration that was originally drawn to accompany another poem, and both were accepted for publication.
 
Serendipity can be a marvelous thing sometimes.
 
 


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
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Bitter Irony
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   Posted 5/15/2008 6:14 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

"Taiga" = tanka haiga. lol Modern English Tanka uses the word here: http://www.shortverse.com/gallery/ I've always found haiga to be a challenging art; discovering the perfect image to address the theme of the haiku, not only its description, can take much longer than composing the haiku itself!

I've also seen the turn occur most often in the fourth line--which means that the "break" (sometimes punctuated) comes between the third and fourth line. Following the punctuation of "Signs Before the Fall," I read the first four lines as one and then broke off before the fifth. My mistake.  blush  Still, I think the cinquain could be improved if the last line did something other than rephrase the last part of the fourth line.  

I like the connotations of keen blade, as if it were ready to draw blood; it does give the pivot a greater element of surprise. To a modern audience, though, the concept of "fighting for peace" is not something new.

~Bitter Irony

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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/16/2008 10:16 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RHFay said...
Hmmm...I wonder if "keen blade" would actually be better in "Sword of Light" than "bright blade", to give it more of a sense of sharpness and possible lethality:

Sword of Light

Keen blade   Like the change! Would have made the same comment as below
engraved with charms,  "charms" seems kind of . . . prissy? . . . to me. "Runes"?
forged from mystical steel,
may draw blood only to spread peace, "may" weakens this for me. "shall" feels more appropriate. "spread" seems a bit off, too, to me.
not war. what if you used "end" or "ends" instead of "not"?
I really like these. Might try a few myself soon. Thanks for sharing.

I think I actually like this better, since "Sword of Light" already has the idea of implied brightness (running with the idea of the title as the "sixth line").


Read me in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com
"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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RHFay
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   Posted 5/16/2008 1:47 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Irony said...

"Taiga" = tanka haiga. lol Modern English Tanka uses the word here: http://www.shortverse.com/gallery/ I've always found haiga to be a challenging art; discovering the perfect image to address the theme of the haiku, not only its description, can take much longer than composing the haiku itself!

Sorry, bio major here, so the first thing I think when I see "taiga" is the northern forests.
 
I happened to compose my haiga backwards; I had the illustration, and composed a scifaiku to go with it.  Perhaps it's cheating, but it worked.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 5/16/2008 1:53 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...
engraved with charms,  "charms" seems kind of . . . prissy? . . . to me. "Runes"?

I was trying for a "Christian" feel, to go along with the concept of a paladin.  I had actually thought of using "runes", but it seemed to have more of a "pagan" connotation than a "Christian" one.  I was thinking "Holy Charms" like some of the religious slogans and sayings you occasionally see engraved on actual medieval blades.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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MysticWino
anarchist fringe monkey boddhisatva



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   Posted 5/16/2008 2:59 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
how about 'verse'?
I see your point about runes.


Read me in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com
"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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