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| SFReader Forums > Writing > On Writing > Elves, Dwarfs and why they AREN'T rpg creations | Forum Quick Jump
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jhmcmullen
Neophyte
      
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 5/14/2008 2:50 AM (GMT -4) |   | crystalwizard said...
Even "magic" has to have logical reasons (to you, the writer) for what it does and how it does it, and if you dig deeply enough into any of it's effects, you should find yourself describing them in scientific terms. For example, your wizard might be able to make lightning bolts fly through the air, but there's a reason why he can generate that much static electricity and then release it where he wants it to go and not take any damage from it himself. When you sit down and start designing that reason so that it makes sense in your world and so you can write it correctly each time, you're designing the science behind that magical effect. If you don't work out the design of how it works, and figure out how it affects that physical world, then you'll wind up writing inconsistencies. And Clarke was right.
I agree and disagree. Strongly. :) Clarke said, "Any advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," he did not say, "All magic looks like advanced technology." Different things.
Magic has to have a logic to it--I agree. But often that's not a scientific logic. (You can write wonderful stories using scientific logic with magic; I'm not disagreeing with that.) I think one of the best things that Gaiman has done is bring back a lot of that fairy-tale logic to magic. Sometimes you want lightning bolts and insulation, sometimes you want things done on an overpass, because it's a crossroad where roads don't actually meet.
But I totally agree that there must be a logic to it, or your magic can do anything.
I think it matters, too, whether your story is about Good and Evil--which some kinds of fantasy are, and use dwarves and elves just as ways of elaborating on different takes on Good and Evil, so they take more of the mythic (as someone in this thread already said), or whether it's about something else. In which case, it might not need fae at all.
One of the things that RPGs have done, in fact, is applied some scientific reasoning to make things as they are in Tolkien, but they've missed the point. They do a lot of world-building to support a world that originally didn't need those things. If, for example, Tolkien was doing a myth, and myths consciously exclude religion (I don't know if they do), adding religion makes it not-a-myth, and you probably end up with a lot of elements that work at cross-purposes: Some are mythic, some are scientific. There are bits in D&D that still resonate and some people love them despite these cross-purposes. A nice thing that has come out of the indie boom is that many games have a much narrower focus, so unlike D&D, they don't have to have elements for everyone. Sorcerer is just about the price you pay for power. Exalted is just about kickass power. And so on.
D&D and the D&D novels are a genre unto themselves now, like superhero comics, and they have their own set of defining characteristics. It doesn't matter that some superhero comics adhere to science fiction; does it work as a superhero comic? It doesn't matter that dwarves and elves existed before RPGs; they've become a defining characteristic of RPG stories. And, more unfortunately for us as writers, there is only one real publisher for D&D novels. | | Back to Top | | |
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1700
| Posted 5/14/2008 11:34 AM (GMT -4) | | Um, I'm confused. How to myths exclude religion? Weren't the ancient Greek myths basically based on their religion at the time? The god interfered with the lives of the heroes all the time. And these gods were deities that the people of the time actually believed in, actually worshiped. These gods actually had shrines and temples dedicated in their honour.
Just because there aren't a whole lot of people today who believe in the Greek gods doesn't mean that there never were, and it in no way suggests that the myths excluded religion. We probably only call them "myths" because there is a lack of belief today. They would more likely be the Bible stories of their day, taken as truth, not myth.
And no religion in Tolkien? Again, I disagree. He created a whole pantheon and creation myth in The Simarillion, and there are hints of this in The Lord of the Rings. Gandalf's resurrection is a religious experience; he comes back transfigured and at first unrecognizable. Just the fact that there were forces at play that would send him back suggests higher powers.
Just because he didn't have his people praying and going to church all the time doesn't mean he excluded religion. I believe it was there, under the surface.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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DAWaverly
Quirky Weirdness
Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 258
| Posted 5/14/2008 2:30 PM (GMT -4) | | crystalwizard said...
Tolkien was specifically trying to create a myth for Europe because there wasn't one and he was unhappy about that. After reading through some of the old works (and being fairly familiar with Tolkien's works he never intended to publish such as the Silmarillion) what I found is that Tolkien revised the norse and older beliefs and didn't even change much about most of them. Including the names, then used those as the basis for his mythos and his world. Which is why it's so rich. It's very full of religious belief. The Elves lived in Heaven at one point and crossed the seas to the earth (middle earth). When they go to the greyhavens to leave, they sail back to heaven. The seas were bent by the rebellion in heaven when one of the Valar, Sauron's boss (satan but called by a different name) was cast out into the darkness (abyssed).
The dwarves were created because one of the high powers got impatient with waiting for 'god' to create humans and tried to do it himself. They were allowed to continue to exist, but had to go back to sleep until humans were created.
What you see of Tolkien's world in LotR and Hobbit is a very small glimpse through a foggy window.
I reviewed the book, "The Letters of JRR Tolkien" on my blog a while back. I highly recommend that any fan of Tolkien, or his works, read it. There is no better source for the man than his own words...
Ummm... CW, you are repeating urban legend. Tolkien pushed to have the Silmarillion published after The Hobbit had its initial success. His publisher convinced him to write a sequel to The Hobbit, which is what became The Lord of the Rings. When the delays for LotR continued (from 1936-publication) and the publisher asked for updates, Tolkien would bring up publishing the work that eventually became the Silmarillion. He felt it would be quicker to get it out, than it would be to finish the LotR. After the LotR was published he worked on Silmarillion as much as his health and other distractions allowed. He was nearly finished with a publishable manuscript at the time of his death. He FULLY intended it to be published. He was open to the idea of all of his myth being published.
As for the religion part, he kept any reference to organized religion out of his myth. He would not abide anyone referring to Valinor as heaven. Yes, there are very common spiritual themes in his myth, but it is not a simple rehash or Norse or any other myth.
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction arriving 30 May 2008. | | Back to Top | | |
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DAWaverly
Quirky Weirdness
Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 258
| Posted 5/14/2008 11:39 PM (GMT -4) | | crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
Ummm... CW, you are repeating urban legend. Um, no I'm not. I'm quoting Christopher. He collected his father's notes and bits and pieces and put out the Silmarillion after Tolkien's death. In fact, his forward in the copy of the Silmarillion that I had, which was one of the very first released, said so.
There is no doubt that Christopher polished it up, but the main text was extant before The Hobbit and existed under the name Silmarillion as early as 1945. From The Letters of JRR Tolkien in a letter to Stanley Unwin in March 1945: "Of Course, my only real desireis to publish 'The Silmarillion': which your reader, you may possibly remember, allowed to have a certain beauty, but of a 'Celtic' kind irritating to Anglo-Saxons."
crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
Tolkien pushed to have the Silmarillion published after The Hobbit had its initial success. what Tolkien pushed to have published and what wound up BEING published are not the same thing.
True. Christopher performed the duties of an editor. But it was not in bits and pieces as the above quote from 1945 confirms. A reader at Allen & Unwin read it before 1945. Tolkien worked on it for over 50 years. Twenty-five days before his death JRR had this to say to Lord Halsbury: ..."I begin to feel that I shall never produce any part of The Silmarillion." Halsbury had just visited and Tolkien was very aware that he was diminishing. The many Middle Earth volumes that have followed over the years, from Christopher, do fit what you describe; but not The Silmarillion. AND I am confident that what the Allen & Unwin reader read, and what was published as The Silmarillion are organizationally different; with the latter having been edited to a smaller volume, with much of the original text excised. In my copy of The Silmarillion Christopher states, "I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistent narrative." Christopher felt that the original text with its changes in tone and subtle inconsistencies would "lead to confusion", and he felt compelled to edit, where his father did not. It was not "bits and pieces"; it was a large compilation of narrative in different tones and styles, including poetry, narrative (some stories were repeated as if from different tellers), and philosophical essay.
crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
As for the religion part, he kept any reference to organized religion out of his myth. He would not abide anyone referring to Valinor as heaven. Yes, there are very common spiritual themes in his myth, but it is not a simple rehash or Norse or any other myth. I suggest you go read the Elder and Younger Eddas and a number of the old Norse narratives if you really think that's the case.
I plan to. Tolkien created a myth, and it certainly will "feel" like other myths, just like many Fantasy novels "feel" like Tolkien's work. Not a rehash, just familiar. As an aside: Tolkien always claimed that his "germ" for his myth resided with Finnish myth.
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction arriving 30 May 2008. | | Back to Top | | |
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RoberII
Stablehand
Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 5/19/2008 8:18 PM (GMT -4) | | crystalwizard said...DAWaverly said...
I plan to. Tolkien created a myth, and it certainly will "feel" like other myths, just like many Fantasy novels "feel" like Tolkien's work. Not a rehash, just familiar. As an aside: Tolkien always claimed that his "germ" for his myth resided with Finnish myth. Devan, Tolkien created nothing. He was a professor with a good background in several subjects. He took what was already there and modified it. That's all.
But the modifying was the novelty part, as was the focus on human and near-human races. If you take other inklings, they had a tendency to go a bit overboard on the alienness, IE satyrs and fauns, whereas Tolkien kept it to basically human races. There are also several original things in his work that are notable, first and foremost the worldbuilding. There are also several things in his work that have no direct equivalent in norse, celtic or finnish myths to the best of my knowledge.
He didn't whip his creation out of thin air, but to claim that he created 'nothing' is a bit of a stretch. Mind you, I'm not a fan of the guy myself, but you gotta give credit where credit is due :) | | Back to Top | | |
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tchernabyelo
Acolyte
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 429
| Posted 5/20/2008 6:29 AM (GMT -4) | |
RHFay said...
Um, I'm confused. How to myths exclude religion? Weren't the ancient Greek myths basically based on their religion at the time? The god interfered with the lives of the heroes all the time. And these gods were deities that the people of the time actually believed in, actually worshiped. These gods actually had shrines and temples dedicated in their honour.
I was the one who said that "myths exclude religion". Your point about Greek myth is certainly a good one. WHat I was trying to indicate emphasise is that there is no indication of worship by any of the peoples in Middle-Earth - there's no church or temple or synagogue or mosque or any equivalent to be found as far as I can remember (I may be slightly wrong regarding the Elves, here, and I'm ready to be corrected if that's the case). That's a very heavy hint that Tolkein isn't writing about a society as a normal human society, but as about actual components of a mythic cycle, who (in a sense) knew they were components in a mythic cycle.
And Crystalwizard - I'm more than passably familiar with the Eddas and the Icelandic Sagas and I have to admit that, names for dwarves apart, I don't think Tolkein took very much from them. Some of the tragic sub-stories within the Silmarillion certainly borrow heavily in structural terms from Njal's Saga and its ilk, but Tolkein's interpertations of both elves and dwarves are very different from the Norse treatment - he gave them a dignity and grandeur that they lack in Norse myth.
Brian Dolton
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"The Gray World" - Every Day Fiction (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force #5
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"In This City" - Fantasy Magazine (forthcoming) | | Back to Top | | |
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jhmcmullen
Neophyte
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 5/25/2008 9:13 AM (GMT -4) | | You know, I've also been wondering where the good dwarf stories are., since you asked.
And just now I realized that there don't have to be any in print. All it takes is enough bad ones in the slush and editors will be prejudiced against them, like Biblical retellings and lady-and-the-tiger endingd. (Although the former did have a heyday in the 1920s and the latter had one example.) | | Back to Top | | |
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