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PaulMc
Adept



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   Posted 4/25/2008 3:16 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My personal thoughts are that as a writer the last thing you should be doing is taking an editor to task.

It's their magazine and their policies. If you don't like it, then bite your tongue and move on.


-- Paul McNamee

My Writings

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erazmus
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   Posted 4/25/2008 3:26 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Pity I don'yt have a Live Journal account, so I won't be replying directly.

And I've always assumed the things we talk about here were occasionally noticed elsewhere. Occasionally I have my facts wrong and every now and then I have an inflamitory opinion, but I'm not going to protest that I'm really a nice guy. I'm an egotistical, self-centered SOB, elsewise I'd not deprive my family of attention so I could sit at a keyboard six hours a day writing.

I don't go round picking fights with A.E.s either. I sub electronic first but the best markets, best paying anyway, are all e-sub markets right now. I mail subs occasionally but haven't in a long while, except to WotF. When I was eligable for WotF I mailed subs to it, other than that I think my last mailed submissions were to MZB's fantasy (rejections) and Turn the Other Chick anthology (sale). So it has been a while and I should do more of it. I mailed a few subs to RoF, but it was before the current A.E.'s tenure.

Looking on the Blog's response thread I see a lot of writers are in the same boat that I'm in, subbing electronically first or, in a couple of cases, second behind a favored market (which is always F&SF, who has a turn around time shorter than most e-sub markets.) Not that turn around time seems to be the deciding factor. Its money, plain and simple.

Short fiction won't be paying for my house, but I am, and I'm not made of money. I'm fine with my writing being a serious sort of hobby for now, but I can't let it become the sort of hobby I can't afford. I made one hundred submissions last year (huh, I didn't realize it turned out to be such a nice, round number). That means that I'd have spent a couple of hundred dollars submitting by mail. Much more of my time would have gone in to standing in line at the Post Awful as well. By itself that's half a house payment. Postal rates have gone up . . .how many times in the last twelve months? I don't know because we don't even mail our _bills_ out anymore. I mail letters to my mum, who never checks her e-mail account, and thats it.

I'll mail my subs when its the right thing to do, but generally I'll save my coin so I can buy copies of the magazines I submit too. (If I did everything the way some places want me too, I'd spend a couple of hundred dollars a year more on postage and a couple of thousand on subscriptions. My way I actually show a profit every year.)

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Pink Plastic Flamingos" in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/m.html
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 4/25/2008 3:40 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's a valid point, Mike, so I added it to the comments at Monstrous Musings.

Money spent on postage could be better spent... buying the magazine.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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DAWaverly
Quirky Weirdness



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   Posted 4/25/2008 3:55 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
H.P. Lovesauce said...
No way am I ever making change for Deven. I'd end up with less money than I had. VIEW IMAGE


It was an honest mistake!!! scool

BTW, can you make change for a 20. I have a five if that will help...


- Deven
Blogtide Rising

published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction

forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction

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SilviaMG
Neophyte

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   Posted 4/25/2008 4:02 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Edit: If someone wants to post this at the LJ Journal feel free.

I'm one of the international sub people, who are probably the ones that are getting more affected by the postal-sub only. Luckily, I live in Canada. But I am from Mexico so I know how hard (and impossible sometimes, they didn't sell IRCS in Mexico) it can be to get IRCs or stamps. If the postal system in your country is inefficient your manuscript could never reach its destination. And it can be very costly.

Even in Canada, where the postal system is good and the cost of mailing something to markets in the US isn't insane, you can spend some hefty dollars sending a manuscript. So I tend to limit my postal subs.

For international writers it would be very kind of the editors to either have an e-mail option for international writers (like Zahir does) or a special e-mail period (like Interzone). Another option, although still costly for the writer but perhaps easier and a tiny bit cheaper, would be to allow international writers to submit their manuscript without a SASE and reply to them by e-mail on their acceptance or rejection. That way we don't have to hunt for stamps.

Silvia Moreno-Garcia
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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 4/25/2008 4:04 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
erazmus said...
...I'm an egotistical, self-centered SOB...
Let's face it - writers are a bit of a egotistical and self-centered lot. smilewinkgrin   It's part of a writer's nature.
 
As for postal submissions and number of submissions - I sent out about 275 different submissions between March 21, 2007 and March 21, 2008 (yeah, I was busy).  Since most were speculative poetry submissions, the cost to send these via snail mail would have far outweighed any monetary gain from any acceptances, especially since it can take several submissions before a piece is accepted.  And let's face it, most publications publishing spec poetry take e-subs, so I wasn't ruling out more than a handful of markets.
 
Does my writing pay the bills?  No.  Does it make sense to me to spend much more money actually sending my stuff out than I could ever make getting it published?   Again, no.  Would I completely rule out snail mail subs for stories?  Yet again, no.  I actually did send one story to the Writers of the Future contest, so I have been known to mail submissions.  It's just not what I would do as a rule. 


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Gustavo
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   Posted 4/25/2008 6:36 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Have to second Silvia's thoughts: having lived in Mexico for the past eight months, my ONLY option was submitting to email markets or those like WotF that do not require SASE.


Visit my livejournal!  http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/ 

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Lyn
Adopt



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   Posted 4/25/2008 8:48 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wait just a minute...you mean to say that there are publications that still accept submissions via the postal service? Hnh, imagine! :-)


Lyn from ResAliens
Own a copy of Strange Worlds of Lunacy - Galaxy's Silliest Antho today!

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Jaqhama
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   Posted 4/26/2008 12:35 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Having perused 'that' blog site for the last few days I see that almost all of the reply posters have made the assumption that I'm a novice writer who was feeling some angst because my 'best story ever written' wasn't going to be accepted by the magazine.
That of course was not the case. nono
 
My emails to Douglas were entirely about the no email subs stance. :p I did make mention that they may have missed out on some superb stories by international writers. But I didn't allude that my story was superb. I did mention the other publications I've been accepted by or continue to write for.
 
On the subject of the internet being a very public domain and one should think carefully about what one posts up, because the content can be read by and then be re-posted and travel all around cyberspace...oh yes I'm well aware of that.
 
An article I wrote a couple of years ago for an American motorcycle webzine has been re-posted on several international bike forums and webzines...often without any credit to myself or the bike 'zine.
It was about how to keep warm (or survive) long periods of biking in very cold weather conditions.
It's now on a Canadian bike site and some others in Europe.
I was a little annoyed at first...but then, discussing it with the guys at the original bike 'zine, we reached the conclusion that if what I had written would keep some other riders alive and well...then maybe it wasn't that important that we weren't being credited for the writing and publication of the article.
I also continue to get emails from people wanting to contact Elena Filatova for interviews.
This on the strength of the one interview I did with her, published in another bike webzine.
 
So yeah...if you don't want the whole world to read anything you've written...and then possibly even post it somewhere else...best not to post it up anywhere on the internet at all.
 
I knew there was a good chance that my thread here would be read by people who probably had some connection to ROF.
I didn't roll into town on the last stagecoach. cool
 
As far as percentages for being published by any magazine of webzine or website go...hmmm...at the end of the day I always assumed that the stories that the editor's liked best would be the ones accepted.
Not the BEST stories...the stories the editor(s) liked the BEST.
Best would obviously be a personel choice.
 
Someone also noted that I've argued with editors of biker and military publications and that it seems unprofessional. lol  That's incorrect. The difference is those guys don't have egos so large that they feel they can't be disagreed with. They're cool people. If they are doing something that a reader or a writer feels is wrong or can be done better...then they want to know. Harsh language is predominant in both cultures...so if the occassional F word gets thrown around, no one really cares. It is what it is.
 
Note: I did NOT use any bad language when writing to Douglas, or anyone at a SFF publication, because I understand it's not part of your culture.
 
Cheers: Jaq.


You can read some of my stories here:
Skulkers. Jack be nimble, Jack be quick. RAT's. La Carcajou. Jet Bike Boogie...at www.pulpanddagger.com
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
at www.bikernet.com (Plus many of my motorcycle related articles.)
The Covert OP. Chick Prick...at www.milstory.com

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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 4/26/2008 2:09 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jaqhama said...
Someone also noted that I've argued with editors of biker and military publications and that it seems unprofessional. lol  That's incorrect...

I was raised with the belief that arguing often gets you nowhere in the professional world.  In most "professional" situations (and not necessarily just the spec publishing world) , it's not really that appropriate.  And you really have to pick your fights with care, and know when it's just not worth it.  (And discussion and argument are often two different things.  And sometimes you can appear argumentative even when you don't really mean to.)
 
And I have found this to be mostly true in my previous professional life.  Some people actually do respond to argument, while others just tune it out.  It's not always an effective means of getting through to people, especially people "with power" or "position" (like editors - let's face it, they are the ones making the decision whether or not to accept your work).
 
Just my own observations based on my personal experiences, most of it actually outside the realm of publication. 
 
I've spent a bit of time on those blogs.  I tried to point out that the initial argument had nothing to do with a rejection, just so others would know the details.  It seems that the discussion has actually grown beyond the initial flap over snail mail subs and has now encompassed writer responses to editors in general.
 
And I do think stressing the fact that forum postings are viewable by the public-at-large is something that anyone and everyone that posts in forums should be made aware of.  Remember, up-and-coming writers may be reading these threads as well as editors.  And perhaps some of these writers would like a shot at getting into Realms of Fantasy or some of the other "big names" out there.  This advice is just as much for them as it is for those already embroiled in this discussion. 



"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 4/26/2008 2:38 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jaqhama said...
Harsh language is predominant in both cultures...so if the occassional F word gets thrown around, no one really cares. It is what it is...
 

Different worlds.  I swear like a sailor when I hurt myself (don't ask).  I sometimes swear at the telly when I see something that makes me really mad (which seems to happen a lot lately).  However, I can't imagine ever swearing in the lab (where I worked before becoming a home-school dad), or during home-school, or when dealing with editors.
 
I know you said you didn't use bad language when writing to Doug.  I'm just commenting on our apparent differences in attitude and approach, which was probably obvious from my previous post anyway.   


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
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   Posted 4/26/2008 2:43 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A final note - I hope you don't get the impression that I think arguing is always wrong. There are instances when it's obviously necessary to argue. I can be a tiger when riled. However, I do think that it's inappropriate in certain professional situations.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Jaqhama
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   Posted 4/26/2008 4:56 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RHFay said...
A final note - I hope you don't get the impression that I think arguing is always wrong. There are instances when it's obviously necessary to argue. I can be a tiger when riled. However, I do think that it's inappropriate in certain professional situations.

It's not a probelm mate.
Like I said...I don't get upset by internet postings or what folks say in chat rooms.
 
 
A lot of you have, I'm afraid, missed the point of my emailing ROF.
I'll say it again...I did it because I figured few others would. I knew there was a high probability that it wouldn't get me anywhere.
 
That's it right there.
 
They could change their policy to benefit overseas writers if they really wanted to.
 
But it's their magazine...and I've had my say...so let them do what they want.
 
Excuse me while I go mountain biking...indian summer day here, too good to miss out on.
 
Laterz: Jaq.


You can read some of my stories here:
Skulkers. Jack be nimble, Jack be quick. RAT's. La Carcajou. Jet Bike Boogie...at www.pulpanddagger.com
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
at www.bikernet.com (Plus many of my motorcycle related articles.)
The Covert OP. Chick Prick...at www.milstory.com

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Jaqhama
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   Posted 4/26/2008 5:30 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Take note that this thread has had almost a thousand views in less than a week.

So it has certainly created enough interest and hopefully made people think about the main issue.


You can read some of my stories here:
Skulkers. Jack be nimble, Jack be quick. RAT's. La Carcajou. Jet Bike Boogie...at www.pulpanddagger.com
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
at www.bikernet.com (Plus many of my motorcycle related articles.)
The Covert OP. Chick Prick...at www.milstory.com

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 4/26/2008 11:17 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You know what's funny? Flashing Swords accepts both email subs and paper.

I have yet to get even one paper submission. I haven't even gotten a query about how to send in a paper submission. Not that I'm complaining, I really prefer email.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print

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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 4/26/2008 11:18 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jaqhama said...
Take note that this thread has had almost a thousand views in less than a week.

So it has certainly created enough interest and hopefully made people think about the main issue.

Yes indeed.

I might not necessarily agree with the idea of arguing with editors, but I agree that a discussion about this issue is definitely a good thing.  This incident has opened up a dialogue about the issue of e-subs, especially for international contributors.  Maybe it will change some opinions and policies, or maybe not.  Time will tell.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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erazmus
Master



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   Posted 4/26/2008 2:27 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And no one even mentioned the obvious benefit to taking e-subs. They don't pile up to tumble down on the heads of staffers in the magazine's office. Down side to that seems to be the loss of free insulation in winter.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Pink Plastic Flamingos" in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/m.html
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 4/26/2008 4:12 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
not to mention there's no need to hand type all those printed subs into the word processor/layout program (or mag card reader if you're really in the past)


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print

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Jaqhama
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   Posted 4/28/2008 8:15 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see that the no email subs policy has been polled and international submitters asked for their opinions over at Douglas's blog site.
 
That's all good stuff. Of course it had nothing to do with my thread here, as I'm sure we're
all aware. smilewinkgrin
 
I'm amazed at the number of people here and at the blog site that have claimed they would never argue or complain about a magazine's policy.
 
Listen up people...seldom in the history of the world has anything ever changed until people started to argue and complain about it. Apart from deliberate policy it's quite possible someone may not even be aware of how their policy affects others until someone argues/disagrees or complains about it.
 
Never be afraid to point out/disagree/argue or complain about anything you feel is not correct.
I'm not just talking about a magazine's policies here; I'm talking about anything that you believe is not right.
 
I'm not suggesting you should all be as blunt as I quite often am. That's just me.
But for goodness sakes don't just keep quiet about something you feel is A: Not right. B: Can or could be changed. (Preferably for the benefit of all.)
 
My thought on the no email subs policy has not changed.
I think accepting up to the first ten pages via email is a good idea for international submitters.
I mean if you don't like the story by page ten then it's highly likely you aren't going to like the story by page twenty...thirty...etc.
If the first ten pages do interest an editor...then he/she can request the full story be sent as paper via normal mail.
That's for a short magazine style story, not for a complete novel. Obviously a novel may not even have begun to develop by even page fifty. I guess in that case the whole manuscrpit should be allowed to be emailed and if the publisher likes it the paper manuscript can then be mailed later.
 
(I shook my head at the idea of using re-cycled paper for a manuscript, if you're worried about how many trees are being destroyed...Re-cycled paper generally costs more than normal paper, so the expense just went up further. rolleyes )
 
Ah well...this kind of debate is a good thing. It gets thoughts and ideas out into the open.
I'm glad I started this thread here. It's made a lot of people sit up and take notice.
Will anything change?
I don't know...but...If no one is prepared to ever complain about it...???
 
 


You can read some of my stories here:
Skulkers. Jack be nimble, Jack be quick. RAT's. La Carcajou. Jet Bike Boogie...at www.pulpanddagger.com
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
at www.bikernet.com (Plus many of my motorcycle related articles.)
The Covert OP. Chick Prick...at www.milstory.com

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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 4/28/2008 1:27 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Like I said earlier, I prefer to pick my fights with care.  This particular issue didn't seem worth getting blacklisted by a publication that I may wish to submit to in the future.  I already know enough to know that editors are often friends with one another and spread "horror stories" about difficult contributors (the blog is a perfect example of this sort of thing).  Unfortunately, there is often more to it than just "doing the right thing for all".  It may sound selfish, but sometimes you have to do what's right for you personally.

I've really just begun playing the publication game on a regular basis.  I really don't think I want to derail my chances of doing something with my writing only a year or so into it.  Maybe it's all small potatoes, and maybe I'll never really make something of it, but I would rather not go around raising the ire of the people I may then submit material to.  Get a reputation as being difficult at one publication and it may just seriously effect your chances of working with other editors as well.  It's akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

This is not racial discrimination or the plight of the poor we're talking about here - it's the submission policies of one magazine.  I understand those policies are unfair to international contributors (although they could make a policy of only accepting submissions every other Tuesday if they wished - it is their house, after all), but I don't think it rises to the level of risking my own chances of ever submitting to that publication, or to any publication helmed by an editor that might be on a friendly basis with the editor of the publication in question.

Look at it like a game, a game that's usually played by their rules.  Play outside of the rules and, well, too bad for you.  If you don't like it, play somewhere else.

That's not to say that the rules can't be changed by discussion.  However, trying to force that change may come at a price that some writers are unwilling to pay.

For me personally, trying to change the no-e-sub policy just wasn't worth the risk of getting the reputation of being a difficult contributor.

By the way - I am not necessarily a "go with the flow" kind of guy.  I pulled my daughter out of a Catholic school after I was very displeased with the attitude of the teachers and principal and have been home-schooling her now for a decade.  I was sick of the questionable quality of the education even in a private school.  Home-schooling is beginning to get more respect, but it can still be seen as a rather radical choice.  However, instead of reacting to the problems in the school my daughter attended briefly (and butt my head against the brick walls of an educational institution in meltdown), I acted and decided that the only way I could ensure that she got a quality education was to educate her myself.  Our income was cut in half, we have spent hundreds on school books, and it's been a lot of work, so it wasn't necessarily the "easy way out".  And before that, when I worked in a health lab, I was the only one who had the guts to bring up questions regarding a safety issues and get a rather unsafe policy changed.  And before that, when I worked in a biology lab, I questioned my immediate supervisor regarding his policy of trying to call me up for field work the morning he was going into the field, even though it might not work with my family situation.  Once I discussed this issue with the scientist running the show, a deal was worked out where I would work in the lab, and the other guy would do the field work.

So, don't think for one moment that I am unwilling to fight for what I think is right.  I just personally didn't think this particular instance was worth it.  I don't think this particular fight was a fight worth fighting, at least for me.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Steven the Git
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   Posted 4/28/2008 2:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The postal service in this country (the UK) has gotten worse and worse, and become more expensive. I have always known the post to be here before I was up, yet nowadays it comes at all sorts of times. Put simply, I wouldn't trust it and though emails aren't perfect either, it costs nothing to resend and you know sooner that something went wrong.


    “Hello, I am William Burton, Head of Recruitment and Integration for the Agency for Peaceful Regulation and Definitive Cooperation of Extraordinary Existence.”
 
spinetinglers.co.uk   Bakemono will not stop!

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Jordan Lapp
ppaL nadroJ



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   Posted 4/28/2008 3:08 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jaqhama said...
 
Never be afraid to point out/disagree/argue or complain about anything you feel is not correct.
Well, there's disagreeing, and then there's being disrepectful, and it seems that Doug thought you'd chosen the latter route.
 
Remember, editors are your CLIENTS. They are buying your work. Sure, sometime you have disagreements with your clients, but a professional is always courtesy and