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| SFReader Forums > Writing > Gripe! > Actually this is a reverse kind of Brag! | Forum Quick Jump
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SilviaMG
Neophyte
      
Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 129
| Posted 4/25/2008 3:02 PM (GMT -5) |   | Edit: If someone wants to post this at the LJ Journal feel free.
I'm one of the international sub people, who are probably the ones that are getting more affected by the postal-sub only. Luckily, I live in Canada. But I am from Mexico so I know how hard (and impossible sometimes, they didn't sell IRCS in Mexico) it can be to get IRCs or stamps. If the postal system in your country is inefficient your manuscript could never reach its destination. And it can be very costly.
Even in Canada, where the postal system is good and the cost of mailing something to markets in the US isn't insane, you can spend some hefty dollars sending a manuscript. So I tend to limit my postal subs.
For international writers it would be very kind of the editors to either have an e-mail option for international writers (like Zahir does) or a special e-mail period (like Interzone). Another option, although still costly for the writer but perhaps easier and a tiny bit cheaper, would be to allow international writers to submit their manuscript without a SASE and reply to them by e-mail on their acceptance or rejection. That way we don't have to hunt for stamps.
Silvia Moreno-Garcia | | Back to Top | | |
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DAWaverly
Quirky Weirdness
Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 4/25/2008 2:55 PM (GMT -5) | | | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4543
| Posted 4/25/2008 2:26 PM (GMT -5) | | Pity I don'yt have a Live Journal account, so I won't be replying directly.
And I've always assumed the things we talk about here were occasionally noticed elsewhere. Occasionally I have my facts wrong and every now and then I have an inflamitory opinion, but I'm not going to protest that I'm really a nice guy. I'm an egotistical, self-centered SOB, elsewise I'd not deprive my family of attention so I could sit at a keyboard six hours a day writing.
I don't go round picking fights with A.E.s either. I sub electronic first but the best markets, best paying anyway, are all e-sub markets right now. I mail subs occasionally but haven't in a long while, except to WotF. When I was eligable for WotF I mailed subs to it, other than that I think my last mailed submissions were to MZB's fantasy (rejections) and Turn the Other Chick anthology (sale). So it has been a while and I should do more of it. I mailed a few subs to RoF, but it was before the current A.E.'s tenure.
Looking on the Blog's response thread I see a lot of writers are in the same boat that I'm in, subbing electronically first or, in a couple of cases, second behind a favored market (which is always F&SF, who has a turn around time shorter than most e-sub markets.) Not that turn around time seems to be the deciding factor. Its money, plain and simple.
Short fiction won't be paying for my house, but I am, and I'm not made of money. I'm fine with my writing being a serious sort of hobby for now, but I can't let it become the sort of hobby I can't afford. I made one hundred submissions last year (huh, I didn't realize it turned out to be such a nice, round number). That means that I'd have spent a couple of hundred dollars submitting by mail. Much more of my time would have gone in to standing in line at the Post Awful as well. By itself that's half a house payment. Postal rates have gone up . . .how many times in the last twelve months? I don't know because we don't even mail our _bills_ out anymore. I mail letters to my mum, who never checks her e-mail account, and thats it.
I'll mail my subs when its the right thing to do, but generally I'll save my coin so I can buy copies of the magazines I submit too. (If I did everything the way some places want me too, I'd spend a couple of hundred dollars a year more on postage and a couple of thousand on subscriptions. My way I actually show a profit every year.)
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Pink Plastic Flamingos" in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/m.html
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ | | Back to Top | | |
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Gustavo
Sage
Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 1330
| Posted 4/25/2008 2:03 PM (GMT -5) | | Wow, my first (unintentional) internet firestorm... Ooooh!
Actually Deven, they were hitting me, not you. You went after it in a analytical way. You might have misread the facts and swapped the 17 and the 83, but this is not what they were talking about. I think the problem was my 99% - which looks pulled out of the air, and admittedly was - as you say, trying to make a point in spirit (never aimed at RoF in particular, but, as you point out, you never know who's reading or might feel singled out, despite what it actually SAYS in the post).
They also seemed to take exception to my phrase "people they know". This was not meant to be "friends of the house" but authors they'd heard of and whose work merited an automatic pass - I DID specify "on spec" (meaning people who had simply sent their work into the slushpile, but even this simple comment, precisely used - the word "either" before it seems like a dead giveaway - seems to have caused some confusion). It was never implied that they play favorites, but that, as your name recognition increases, it is possible to bypass the snailmail slush at some markets as they actually trust your email and don't think you're a spammer or trying to spread viruses. Other markets are rigid and don't allow this (source: personal experience and you can also see Ralan.com for markets that specifically allow email subs only from people "on the list"). Also, I never said they accepted everything sent by the people they know - also something they imply I said.
While I'll take the heat for the 99% - again, correct more in spirit than in fact, it seems, I won't take the heat for things I didn't say. I didn't say there was an "old boys" system in place, and I didn't say any publication accepts everything sent in by people they know. I also, very empathically didn't say that the work from know authors was comissioned. I just made the point that you would have a better chance of bypassing the traditional slush if the editors are aware of the quality of your work - and I absolutely didn't say this was wrong. I've benefitted from this before, and feel that it's a good thing for editors to favor authors whose work they respect and whose work brings in more readers - that's just good business sense. If the stories are equal, the author with the better track record wins. Period. And no complaints are forthcoming.
Maybe what happens is that slush readers and editors in general are so sick of authors saying the things I DIDN'T say that they just assume that that is what's happening. To which I say: oh, well, you can't please everyone all the time - it's a free world, and they can assume whatever they want! For what I did say, I will take the rap, and will only specify that, in the very particular case of RoF, it's quite clear that my number was off - sorry about that.
Just one last item: I want to thank the commenter who said that these facts come out people's nether regions. A quaint, if graphic, description. I guess, when using exaggeration to make a point, I should avoid using exaggeration to make a point. My lower intestinal tract will, presumably, be thankful. The presence of this last guy and his ilk is the reason I won't be posting a reply to the original LJ - I prefer to keep it civilized, even when if / when I'm wrong / somebody else is wrong.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
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SilviaMG
Neophyte
Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 129
| Posted 4/25/2008 12:07 PM (GMT -5) | | | I went to look at the thread at RoF and they have a poll on submission strategies (do you submit to e-mail markets first? You sub to the best market first, regardless of their submission policies?) so if you have a Livejournal account you may want to vote and leave your comments. | | Back to Top | | |
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1972
| Posted 4/25/2008 11:08 AM (GMT -5) | |
DAWaverly said...
One other thing. Several of the comments to his posts are quite disparaging. It would seem that I and others here are held in animosity without anyone bothering to get to know us. .. That's why first impressions are so important.
That's why acting in a professional manner is so important. (Even if you are doing this as a "hobby" and not as a "profession" is still no excuse to act in any way other than a professional manner. Yes, how you present yourself does matter.)
That's why watching what you say in public is important.
It's very easy to get off on the wrong foot with someone. It's often much harder to then convince them that you are really a "nice guy". It might not be fair, but hey, life's not fair.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1972
| Posted 4/25/2008 11:00 AM (GMT -5) | |
H.P. Lovesauce said...
Seems like this thread is being watched...
Yes it is, or was anyway. There has been some discussion about this and the issue of authors' replies to rejections on Live Journal. It makes for interesting reading, especially for any up-and-coming writer.
This is a good example of why you should take care what you say in public. Saying something in forums or blogs is saying something in public. Don't assume that only fellow forumites or bloggers are reading what you post. Don't assume no one outside of your group is paying attention, because maybe they are.
This isn't necessarily directed at anyone here specifically (I know Jaqhama has stated that he doesn't care), but just a general observation.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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DAWaverly
Quirky Weirdness
Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 4/25/2008 10:54 AM (GMT -5) | | I really liked that David Cherry cover of an angel in blue jeans from way back in the mid/late 1990's... 
I'd post my reply directly to the blog in question but the owner does not allow OpenID or Anonymous posts, and I am not going to create a LiveJournal account just to reply. Hopefully he is still monitoring over here. It would be a great addition to our forum if he joined SFReader forums and responded directly.
My math was questioned in the latest blog entry by slushmaster Douglas of RoF. Above (in the SFReader Forum post), I reported that slightly more than 17% of automatic passes (through slush) at RoF are rejected. I obtained my numbers via a link provided by Douglas himself--follow the link RHFey provided above, then click on the "stats" link in the slushmaster's post.
First, the data from the slushmaster's stats post:
3) Total # of Automatic Passes: 151
6) Total # of Automatic Passes Accepted for Publication: 26 (uh, oh!! I see the problem!)
Now, the math:
26/151=0.17218
This is slightly over 17% accepted for publication. I got the math correct. The attribution was wrong. :-/
(151-26)/151=0.82781
This is almost an 83% reject rate for automatic passes. Which is still much more desirable than the 99.5% reject rate for non-automatic passes.
I screwed up. My apologies for getting it wrong, and if anyone here has an LJ account, please feel free to post this on the slushmaster's blog post about the 17% being wrong. (Jordan?)
One other thing. Several of the comments to his posts are quite disparaging. It would seem that I and others here are held in animosity without anyone bothering to get to know us. Shame. I am a nice guy, or so I am told.
For the record, I have not yet submitted to RoF only because I have not yet written anything that fits that market. When I do, I will submit. But, then, I have a USA postal address.
I am not likely to submit to Interzone (UK SF magazine) because of similar postal cost reasons. They do however appear to have email submission "windows" from time to time, and they also accept email proposals, which is exactly what Jaqhama was asking RoF about.
- Deven
Blogtide Rising
published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction
forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction | | Back to Top | | |
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Firlefanz
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1246
| Posted 4/24/2008 4:23 PM (GMT -5) | | Jaqhama, I can relate.
For me, it costs more than 10 Euro to send one manuscript to the US. I managed to lay my hands on some US stamps (thanks, Nathaniel!), otherwise I'd have to add another 2.50 Euro for the IRC. At the current conversion rate, at a guess this is comparable to 15-17 US dollar.
That's why I rarely submit to magazines that insist on paper submissions. It's that simple. Of course, I'm not a stellar author, either, so chances are very low I'd get in, anyway. Right now, I'd rather spend that money playing the lottery -- the odds are probably comparable if Deven's calculation hits near the truth.
*shrugs*
- Call me Firle.
Hannah Steenbock
Mystical Adventures
Sphaira
"Die arische Frau" in Pandaimonion - Die Formel des Lebens
"Der Weg nach Eridani" in Earth Rocks 3/2007 (pdf)
"Minkus, the Masterful Magic-Mender" in - AlienSkin Magazine, Featured Fiction | | Back to Top | | |
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Gustavo
Sage
Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 1330
| Posted 4/24/2008 10:45 AM (GMT -5) | | As I've pointed out, my living comes not from the writing thing but from the day job, so the difference between a market paying 1 ct / wd vs. 5 isn't really going to make much difference to me. So the markets not accepting email will receive fewer of my subs - I will still send them some, when I get to Argentina (as someone pointed out earlier, the postal system in Mexico is a nightmare of Mexican proportions), but not many.
I'll take Jordan's 1000 subscribers, 9K unique hits and painlless sub process over going to the post office and hoping they have IRCs any day (not to mention the llaag between sub aand response times, etc.).
What those markets (I'm not referring to any in particular) really mean is that they get 99% of the stories they usse from authors they already know - either commissioned or on spec, and only chose a tiny number of stories from the slush, so keeping the really pile down is actually more important than being modern. So why don't they just close the slush altogether? Easy: every single reader they have is either a writer or a potential writer. If they close the open-call subs, they lose their whole audience - and disappear. Might sound cynical, but business is business.
Want to be famous? Write a novel. Short SF is onlly for those who write for pleasure - and in those cases it shouldn't really matter if some of the major markets have strange policies.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 585
| Posted 4/24/2008 8:52 AM (GMT -5) | | <American arrogance>
So what if a magazine is losing out on potential authors from a country that has fewer people than Texas?
If a writer down there really stands out, they'll get published by that SF/F magazine the Aborigines put out, and eventually come to the attention of the big magazines where maybe it can be reprinted.
</American arrogance> | | Back to Top | | |
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Jaqhama
Adventurer
Date Joined Oct 2007
Total Posts : 514
| Posted 4/24/2008 5:31 AM (GMT -5) | |
 Jordan Lapp said...Lol.... Jaqhama, I KNEW you'd make that connection, and I tried to phrase my comment so that you wouldn't.... but the stereotype is so prevalent I don't blame you. I simply meant that the market is smaller because "bikers that write" is a smaller subset of professional writers than the set of "writers of fiction". That "eloquent and educated" was my attempt to not cause offence... but it appears to have had the opposite effect. I'd love to buy a bike myself, but I like in Vancouver, and therefore have like 10 sunny days a year in which to enjoy it. What is the point that I've missed? Editors should be nicer when someone writes an abrasive e-mail?
I knew what you meant Jordan. 
I never take offense on internet forums or in chat rooms. The first rule of either is 'If you can't chill, don't chat.'
A quick change of subject...there are plenty of guys and gals who ride in Vancouver.
You may be surprised.
I recommend the adventure bike forum because I think you will find that the kind of riding they do is more in line with the conditions one might expect in a cooler and damper climate.
The point: I thought their no email subs for international writers is doing those international writers a dis-service...and was prepared to say so.
I'm sure many disagree with the policy but are not prepared to say so because they fear being ostracized by the magazine in question or indeed other SF&F magazines.
As I've already mentioned that doesn't bother me.
I'm impressed Douglas replied to me. Much respect to him for that.
This little castle that some editors have built up for themselves...The 'don't ever argue with the editor' means nothing to me.
Disagreeing and arguing are not perhaps the same thing.
I see on Douglas' blog that he has insinuated one of us may be a jerk...I also see he has produced a list of ten things that he thinks might include my reasons or attitude for questioning the editorial policy.
(And aren't some of the responses insightful?)
You will note that in my original post here I did not even mention whom I had made discourse with.
You will also note I have not insulted or insinuated that Douglas is anything but a person whose editorial policy I disagreed with.
I haven't attacked Douglas personally...just the magazine's intractable no email subs attitude.
I'm sure Douglas is a wonderful chap.
I've had no reason to make insinuations or snide insults regarding him.
The comments on the blog do amuse me however. I like how some have attempted to fit me into a niche that suits their own viewpoints.
I think I'll not write more about this now...I'm sure everyone understands my point of view and the reason I sent my email questioning and deriding the no email subs policy.
If I disagree with another editor/magazine's policy then I'll doubtless say so again.
If people/writers don't speak up when they see something they believe is not right...how will things change in the future?
As an example: There is another popular SSF paper magazine that also states they do not accept email submissions...yet when I emailed them and explained my thoughts...and mentioned emailing a couple of pages for a perusal...with the full paper manuscipt to follow later if they liked the writing...they accepted the idea and were quite happy to so.
Not intractable you see. Open to new suggestions that benefit both the magazine and the writer.
Happy trails: Jaq.
You can read some of my stories here:
Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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SilviaMG
Neophyte
Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 129
| Posted 4/23/2008 8:02 PM (GMT -5) | | | If I recall correctly from Gardner Dozois figures in 2005 RoF had some 16,500 subscribers and about 6,500 in newstands. | | Back to Top | | |
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Jordan Lapp
Ebony & Ivory
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 2857
| Posted 4/23/2008 6:32 PM (GMT -5) | |
David de Beer said...
What I would have done is find a buddy in the US willing to help me out by printing and mailing my US postal submissions from his US addy in return for compensation of his/her expenses
Clarkesworld gets about 5k hits per month, more or less, and Fantasy magazine is also roughly 3k or so. Just as an addendum, Neil Clarke just posted on EDF that Clarkesworld actually gets close to 8K uniques.
The circulation of the big three is reported by Gardner Dozois in Year's Best every year. Here's last year's stats:
Asimov's: 15117 (Subscription only, no newstand figures).
Analog : 23732 (plus 4587 newsstand)
Fantasy & Science Fiction: 14575 (plus 3691 newstand)
Interzone's monthly circulation is between two and three thousand.
Analog's is still the wide leader. Don't know why RoF doesn't show up, but 15K sounds about right.
And because we're sharing numbers, Every Day Fiction gets 9K (not including subscribers which is another 1K). We're up there with the bigs.
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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David de Beer
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 158
| Posted 4/23/2008 6:27 PM (GMT -5) | | | What I would have done is find a buddy in the US willing to help me out by printing and mailing my US postal submissions from his US addy in return for compensation of his/her expenses
yes, this is what I did. It costs a lot,but less than if I had to mail it myself, and here is one way to use the internet to good effect in the matter of snail mail only submissions (and making overseas friends to begin with).
I don't do it often, though, for obvious reasons.
Re: readerships - I'll have to dig up my YB by Dozois, but he posted the numbers in there. ROF and Analong has the highest circulation numbers, both over 15k I think, with Asimovs close, and F&SF thereabouts.
Clarkesworld gets about 5k hits per month, more or less, and Fantasy magazine is also roughly 3k or so. Sean Wallace does regular breakdowns on his blog.
Strange Horizons don't count their hits, says they can't make much of the numbers. Chizine has a mailing list of about 1800 people, and they work on the conservative estimate of about 300 readers per issue (don't ask me where I saw that, cannot remember).
Interzone has about 2k subscribers, I think, Apex Digest close to 450.
JBU - no idea, at least 5k would be my guess.
Point is, the numbers aren't huge, but the big four have significantly higher readerships still. Payment is much higher. So, now and then it's worth going through the schlep of a snail mail and ulcerating about whether the letter will survive across continents.
yes, I would prefer to have all subs be email, but I don't make the rules and while frustrated at times, them's the breaks and we have to adapt to them.
http://david-debeer.com | | Back to Top | | |
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