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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/29/2008 11:10 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RANT ON

This irritates me.

I know it's the standard, but it still irritates me.

when I accept a story for FS, I specifically ask the author to send me a copy of their manuscript with all special formatting and italics that they wish to use in place.

What do I get?

Manuscripts with underlines.

Which means I'm the one that has to go through and change all those underlines to italics.

It also means I have to guess if the author wanted italics there ir if they, in fact, wanted an underline there.

Which annoys me.

/RANT OFF
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/29/2008 12:20 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Blame William Shun. As you say, its standard. I have to go through each of my Ms. every time I submit anywhere and try to get them to conform to what ever standard that market is asking for, and more often then not I miss something. But if you ask specificly for italics instead of underlines, you should get mostly italics. At least I'd think so.
But a general statement on special formatting may be confusing your contributors-- not because it isn't clear in and of itself but because it is no more clear than the endless variations we get on every single pubs guidelines we see. After a while they all blur together.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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RHFay
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   Posted 3/29/2008 1:04 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

The real problem, at least from the perspective of a contributor, is that the standard isn't really very standard.  Each publication seems to follow their own version or modification of the "standard manuscript formatting".

And what about people who were subbing stuff before the days of e-subs?  I actually sent a handful of mainstream poems and a fantasy story or two out, with no real success, in the early to mid nineties.  They were all sent via "snail mail" back when that was the only real option.  (I didn't even have an up-to-date computer back then.)   They were all formatted in "standard manuscript formatting", at least as it was laid out in the then-current Writer's Market (or guide, or whatever it was called).  Today the desired formatting may be a bit different, especially when it comes to on-line publications or electronic submissions.  I've even noticed some subtle differences between what was in my old Writer's Market book, what was in a much more recent edition, and what I've seen posted on-line as the standard manuscript format.

It's actually taken me a bit to adjust to the formatting found on certain on-line publications, and I still have a tendency to do such things as put two spaces after my periods.  I've seen at least one on-line publication that wants one space after periods.  Underlining instead of italics was indeed the standard for manuscript formatting, but I have seen a change in that.  Some editors still want underlining for italics, while others want italics formatted as italics.

The best you can do is state very clearly what formatting you want, especially if it difers from the established standard, and perhaps even give examples of the things that might not be clear.  Of course, expect there will be at least some material submitted in a different format than you desire. 

And I agree with Mike about guidelines - after you've looked at about a hundred different guidelines, they do all seem to blur together.  It gets difficult to keep straight which publication wants what formatting.  That's why I always double-check the guidelines as I'm sending submissions.  Of course, we're all human, and we all make mistakes.

A final note - keep in mind that much of this standard was developed in a time when most writers typed their manuscripts.  You couldn't do italics as easily fifteen or twenty years ago as you can today.  With most typewriters, it wasn't even an option.  The objective of the standard seems to be to make the manuscript appear typed, and have a fairly consistent look, even with the introduction of efficient word processors and fancy fonts.  Old habits (and preferences) die hard.  


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/29/2008 1:53 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I want one space after periods too. But that's easy for me to fix with word. Global search and replace. Underlining to italics... if word has a global replace function for that, I haven't found it yet.

>The best you can do is state very clearly what formatting you want

When sending an accpetance, I say

QUOTE
Please send me a copy of your story as a word .doc or .rtf file with all special formating and italics where you want them.
UNQUOTE

How much more specific and clear can I be?

That's not in my writer's guidelines. I don't care how subs come in as long as I can read them. Written in crayon on toilet paper is probably not real readable but other than that, I don't care.

The manuscript I'm going to do line edits on? The one I'm going to put into the magazine? That one I care about. So my instructions for format are in my acceptance email.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


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RHFay
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   Posted 3/29/2008 2:31 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Ah-ha!  That may be where the problem lies. shocked   smilewinkgrin

Your request upon acceptance, while seemingly clear enough, may be open to interpretation, especially when considering how engrained "standard manuscript format" may be to those who have done this for a while.  Be specific about your desired format, state that you want italics done as italics, not underlined.

Yeah, it might seem like you're leading people by the hand, but sometimes that's what you have to do if you want something a certain way.  Assume that anything contrary to the standard must be explained.  Remember that it's not easy to teach an old dog new tricks.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Bill Ward
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   Posted 3/29/2008 2:41 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ctl-A, click 'underline' twice: all gone. That's all there is to it.

No writer expects underlining to be left in, or uses it because he wants underlining. There's no ambiguity here.


billwardwriter.com

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/29/2008 3:04 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Ward said...

No writer uses it because he wants underlining.


I do.
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/29/2008 3:05 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Ward said...
Ctl-A, click 'underline' twice: all gone. That's all there is to it.


And then to replace with italics?
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/29/2008 3:39 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think you have to italisize fiirst.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/29/2008 3:45 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
erazmus said...
I think you have to italisize fiirst.
Mike


Yeah, see? And cntrl-A just selects the entire docment, not all the words that are underlined in the document.

If someone can tell me how to select all the underlined words, then do a global replace with italics, I'll send them a t-shirt with the Flashing Swords log on it.
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C.L.
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   Posted 3/29/2008 4:13 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

In Word click the Replace button. Click more. With 'find what' selected go down to Format and click font. Underline style= what ever it is. Then select 'replace with', format, font. This time under font style select Italic, underline style none. Replace all.

All done! :-) I hope that was understandable!


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Jared Evers
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   Posted 3/29/2008 4:53 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I tend to use underscores around the words I want to italicize.  Then, when I send to a market, I just do a Find for a single underscore and italicize/underline/etc. that word while taking out the underscores.  Then I save the document as a different name so I still have the original with the underscores.  I tend to have a Master copy of every story, which I then make copies of and alter for each market.
 
But if guidelines say to do something, I make every effort to do it.  There's enough competition out there as it is, and the fewer things in my story that irritate the editor, the better.  :-)
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Bill Ward
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   Posted 3/29/2008 4:57 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll try that CL.

My method, of course, only works if they do both italics and underlining, which is what I do,...so clearly that's limited and I wasn't thinking about people that don't use italics at all. My mistake, I realize it is harder to deal with than my solution.

And, CW, you use underlining in fiction? For what? I'll bet you 9,999 times out of 10,000 the underlining you get in a manuscript is not something the writer wants to see in the final.

I think you should clearly state in the guidelines and again in the acceptance that you want underlining replaced with italics...it's such a given that no one thinks twice about doing it themselves when they are told to have their formatting arranged as they like it--they'd no more worry about taking underling out than they would taking their headers or address off the manuscript, everyone assumes editors will do it, because editors always do.

Knowing you find them a hassle I take them out when sending to you, I think if you make it clear in guidelines and acceptance, writers will oblige. Most writers probably don't like using underlining anyway--personally, I hate it.


billwardwriter.com

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Lyn
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   Posted 3/29/2008 5:33 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Ward said...
Most writers probably don't like using underlining anyway--personally, I hate it.

Me too!


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UnclePete
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   Posted 3/29/2008 7:59 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
C.L. said...
In Word click the Replace button. Click more. With 'find what' selected go down to Format and click font. Underline style= what ever it is. Then select 'replace with', format, font. This time under font style select Italic, underline style none. Replace all.

All done! VIEW IMAGE I hope that was understandable!


Beat me to it. Yep, do this. :-)


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von Darkmoor
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   Posted 3/30/2008 2:11 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
yeah, C.L. beat me, too.

And Bill, you're an exception then. Other than I. Prior to you saying you used both, I was the only one who did so that I was aware of - and I end up defending it in every critique group I join. So I toss the underlining, if they don't like it.

Cuz I, too, don't like the underlines!


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
First Book Released: The Return of the Sword
Assistant Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/30/2008 3:50 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
okay, CL... it's kind of working and kind of not.

I can get it to find all the underlined words

I can get it to turn them into italics

I can't get the underlining to go away however.

now what?


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


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R. L. Copple
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   Posted 3/30/2008 4:17 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you want to simply this, and you're comfortable inserting Macros into Word, use the following:


Sub UNDERLINEtoITALICSConvert()

With ActiveDocument.Content.Find
    .ClearFormatting
    .Font.Underline = True
    Do While .Execute(FindText:="", Forward:=True, _
        Format:=True) = True
        With .Parent
            .Font.Underline = False
            .Font.Italic = True
            .Move Unit:=wdWord, Count:=1
        End With
    Loop
End With

End Sub


Then you simply open the document and run the macro. You can attach the macro to a button too, if you wish, to make it easily accessible, or a shortcut key.

I actually have several such macros that format these things into html codes for putting on our mag's website. I can pretty much format it to our standards with the click of a couple of buttons. For instance, if you wanted the above to make underlined text become html italics formatted:


Sub UNDERLINEtoHTMLConvert()

With ActiveDocument.Content.Find
    .ClearFormatting
    .Font.Underline = True
    Do While .Execute(FindText:="", Forward:=True, _
        Format:=True) = True
        With .Parent
            .Font.Underline = False
            .InsertBefore "<i>"
            .InsertAfter "</i>"
            .Move Unit:=wdWord, Count:=1
        End With
    Loop
End With
End Sub


My standard is to use italics, and then if someone wants it differently, I convert from that.

And, just for comparison, here is the Open Office equivalent, which is much more complex and took some research to find the specific variables needed:


sub UNDERLINEtoHTMLConvert

Dim oDoc As Object
  Dim oReplace As Object
  Dim SrchAttributes(0) As New com.sun.star.beans.PropertyValue
  Dim ReplAttributes(0) As New com.sun.star.beans.PropertyValue

  oDoc = ThisComponent
  oReplace = oDoc.createReplaceDescriptor

REM -- Replace underlining with HTML Italics

  'Regular expression. Match any text
  oReplace.SearchString = ".*"
  'Note the & places the found text back
  oReplace.ReplaceString = "<i>&</i>"
  oReplace.SearchRegularExpression=True  'Use regular expressions
  oReplace.searchStyles=True             'We want to search styles
  oReplace.searchAll=True                'Do the entire document

  REM This is the attribute to find
  SrchAttributes(0).Name = "CharUnderline"
  SrchAttributes(0).Value =com.sun.star.awt.FontUnderline.SINGLE

  REM This is the attribute to replace it with
  ReplAttributes(0).Name = "CharWeight"
  ReplAttributes(0).Value =com.sun.star.awt.FontWeight.NORMAL

  REM Set the attributes in the replace descriptor
  oReplace.SetSearchAttributes(SrchAttributes())
  oReplace.SetReplaceAttributes(ReplAttributes())

  REM Now do the work!
  oDoc.replaceAll(oReplace)

end sub


I have a lot more where that came from! :) Like taking out space-tabs, tabbed-tabs, formatted tabs, curly quotes to straight (hard to go the other way though), double-spacing paragraphs while single-spacing lines, or the reverse, changing formats to html or BBCode, etc., etc. Click! Done.

Also, one other note. If your story is going on the web, double spaces between sentences don't matter one bit. They don't show up. Two spaces shows up as one space on the web. Even if you plug in the web space character code twice, it will come out as one space. But, converting to one space is pretty easy. If you need to preserve spaced tabs, you'll need to convert them into something else first, like a find-replace on five spaces converted to 5 *s. Then do a find replace on 2 spaces to be replaced by one space. Then if you did the tab conversion, you'll need to convert that back from five *s to five spaces.


R. L. Copple

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/30/2008 4:31 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A little more information, please. How, exactlly, do I run a macro in word?


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R. L. Copple
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   Posted 3/30/2008 4:49 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In Word:

Tools, Macro, Visual Basic Editor

In the left window, you'll see a tree structure. At the top is "Normal," the default template for Word. Under that you will see a folder for "Modules." Under that you are likely to see some modules already in place. If not, right-click on the "Modules" folder, select "Insert" and then "Module." Then click on the new module, rename it if you wish. Click in the open window and paste the above macro(s) in there. Click the save button in the tool bar. Close the Visual Basic window.

Then to use it in Word, go to: Tools, Macro, and Macros... (Short cut key is Alt-F8)

Select the Macro and click "Run" and away it goes.

Use the help to learn how to attach a macro to a toolbar button or assign a shortcut key to it.


R. L. Copple

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www.haruah.com

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darkbow
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   Posted 3/30/2008 4:57 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Me? I just try to follow the guidelines. They want underlined, they get underlined. They want italics, they get italics.

Unless I screw up.


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C.L.
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   Posted 3/30/2008 9:27 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You have to select underline style none the second time you go to that screen.


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/30/2008 3:19 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I did that though, several times :(


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/30/2008 3:36 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
R.L Copple get's the t-shirt :) PM me the size you need, and your shipping address, please.