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| SFReader Forums > Writing > Gripe! > making too much of this? | Forum Quick Jump
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terry
Neophyte
      
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 112
| Posted 4/19/2006 7:32 PM (GMT -5) |   |
nathan said...
Wow, Terry that's a rather generous offer. The easiest way to read something of mine is to scroll down to the Flashing Swords part of this board and read my stories in the last two issues. Ecspecially the one in #4 as it earned me my tag-line <g>
I read The Blood Meridian.Over all I liked it. I have positive and less positive thoughts/opinions.
Would you like me to make my comments here or in private? I'm totally caught up in the last couple of chapters of Shaman's Crossing right now and want to finish it before I do anything else today, so let me know how you'd like to proceed and then I'll get down to putting my thoughts together.
"If you confront the universe with good intentions in your heart, it will reflect that and reward your intent. Usually. It just doesn't always do it in the way you expect." Andreas Katsulas (G'kar) 1946-2006
http://www.zteamproductions.com/b5stuff/Andreas.html
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2122
| Posted 4/19/2006 7:39 PM (GMT -5) | | http://www.tangentonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=600&Itemid=267
Follow that link for the offical review and see if Ms. Llyod has summed up any of your opinions, lol.
EDIT: Terry it occured to me after I posted the above that it might come across as if I were being dismissive - which isn't what I meant at all. I meant it more like could you imagine me getting paid for that story if Ms. Llyod had been the editor instead of Howard? <g>
The fundamental disconect between the way Howard read that story and then bought it and the way Ms. Llyod read that story and then reviewed it is more along the lines of what I was discussing than a critique of anyone story in particular - Blood Meridian just seems the easiest to point out as it is the one of mine that ellicited the strongest reactions on either ends of the spectrum. I've gotten much fewer positive emails from people who've read stories that I thought were written much stronger, from a technical sense anyway.
So I apologize if I came across as other than I intended - I would of course value your opinion as I do anyone who reads a story of mine, but by all means there is no need for you to drop what you're doing like this was an assignment or some such.
Hope I came across a little better there.
Nathan.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews | | Back to Top | | |
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terry
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 112
| Posted 4/19/2006 9:06 PM (GMT -5) | |
nathan said...
http://www.tangentonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=600&Itemid=267
Follow that link for the offical review and see if Ms. Llyod has summed up any of your opinions, lol.
I had no trouble what ever understanding the context of you giving me that link. thanks.
Unfortunately, I do in fact concurr with some of her points; I however won't offer my comments without explaination. there is a purpose for this 'experiment' and that is for you to see your work more clearly 'through the eyes of another'.
give me a day or two.
I don't look on this as some sort of 'assignment'. It is as much a learning experience for me as it will be for you, and I appreciate you allowing me to look at your work and comment on it.
"If you confront the universe with good intentions in your heart, it will reflect that and reward your intent. Usually. It just doesn't always do it in the way you expect." Andreas Katsulas (G'kar) 1946-2006
http://www.zteamproductions.com/b5stuff/Andreas.html
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Kuroboshii
Shogun
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 549
| Posted 4/19/2006 10:49 PM (GMT -5) | | | I think you can safely reserve the right to send your work to whoever is most likely to buy it, and if your experience shows that females editors don't tend to connect with your work, I don't see the problem in preferring male editors--if I wrote a novel most likely to be enjoyed by Christian readers, I don't think I could be faulted to sending it to Christian editors. Men and women certainly tend (in general, of course) to enjoy slightly different kinds of fiction. My sister reads and loves plenty of books I just can't connect with.
I think Beth put it best--try, as much as possible, to write real characters rather than stereotypes. You don't need to emasculate male characters to have strong female ones, and strong female characters don't have to be mercenaries, warrior princesses, and sorceresses. That's just as much a cliche as completely helpless damsel in distress.
Sean T. M. Stiennon (AKA Suuran Songforge) For information about me, see my author page at <a href="http://www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon" target="_blank">www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon</a>. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4546
| Posted 4/20/2006 1:04 PM (GMT -5) | | Heck Nathan, submit and be damned. No use worrying about it, you can never tell who's going to reading your submissions, no matter who the editor is. Certainly it would be of no use trying to modify your writing to appeal more to college educated liberal women working in the publishing industry, as the trick is really to appeal to people reading the market. Editors, commercial ones anyway, are trying to find fiction that appeals to their readers, right? Just who those readers are and what they want is the big mystery. The one publishers lay awake staring at the ceiling at 3 am thinking about.
So write what you write, continue to get better at that and keep plugging away. Eventually you will find an audience, I believe a sizable audience and it will become easier for you to make sound desicions as to where to send your work and editors (of both genders), knowing you have an audience, will cut you some slack in differment to that audience.
Damn few writers ever stop getting rejected. But most established writers cut down on it by becoming a known quality. You are well on the way, so chin up.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine #9 Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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terry
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 112
| Posted 4/20/2006 8:47 PM (GMT -5) | | | Hello everyone.
I took a look at The Blood Meridian. I am not an editor. I've never submitted a piece of fiction for publication. The concern expressed By Nathan was that women seemed disproportionately unwilling to accept his work. It was wondered if perhaps his depictions of women were less than desirable from a female perspective. He felt not as evidenced by the thought that if that were the case the men buying his work were also 'guilty' of the same 'issues' he is.
What I did was dead simple, and can be undertaken by anyone here, simply by going to the story and making a few notes as you read,which is why I decided to put it on the forum.These are Nathan's words. I believe context DOES matter,and for the most part I wasn't especially offended or angered, but when you set it out like this ... maybe not so great to some people.
I have other comments and thoughts about this story and they will be forthcoming but they will form my OPINION and this is simple fact, there for all to see.
The Depiction of Women in The Blood lace w:st="on">Meridianlace>>>
> >
Simone: ‘mistress’, prostitute (‘ “gifts” from her patrons’) Madam: (‘invested … in brothels’) ‘courtesan’, Lesbian: ( “Because he is jealous of my love for the girl.” She replied. “I love Annette in ways he can never understand and it frightens him.”)
> >
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Annette: Lesbian, (‘... Loved by a woman of means and influence.’ ) ‘Bound face down’, 'wept' , 'cried', ‘agony’, ‘suffering, ‘a mess and even as half-crazed’, ‘petite girl’, ‘she clung to him like a child’, ‘she fell unconscious.’/ ‘Pain jolted Sabbath awake’ { Annette does not speak at all}
> >
> >
Unnamed Female: ‘A female slave in a maid’s uniform cowered in the hall, eyes rolling with fear’. ‘screamed her fear’, ‘pointed a shaking hand’
"If you confront the universe with good intentions in your heart, it will reflect that and reward your intent. Usually. It just doesn't always do it in the way you expect." Andreas Katsulas (G'kar) 1946-2006
http://www.zteamproductions.com/b5stuff/Andreas.html
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terry
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 112
| Posted 4/20/2006 10:40 PM (GMT -5) | |
nathan said...You both have dirty minds? If it were [and I don't object to the leap in any real sense, it works well enough in the flavor of the story] am I then to correlate for the purpose of this illustration that lesbian = derogative? That would acctually be pretty educational for my part. I'm not really objecting, the reductionism does seem to exist without noted context, but I wonder how it would work if done to the male characters. It also seems to be one which ignores neutral describers or positive ones. Sort of like reducing the bible to the words Hell, Sodomy, and Damned for instance. Do I hear you saying this is how stories are reduced?
"In his house now lay another young and beautiful girl, this one loved as passionately as he had loved his Marie. Loved by a woman of means and influence"
I don't have a dirty mind (well maybe I do  but it's not working while I'm working)
I don't know how this does not imply a sexual relationship between the women, for surely we are not to imagine that Sabbath had a chaste relationship with Marie.
and I wasn't suggesting it was derogatory merely a descriptor of their relationship implied by your own words.
I'll happily do the same process for the men if you'd like.
"If you confront the universe with good intentions in your heart, it will reflect that and reward your intent. Usually. It just doesn't always do it in the way you expect." Andreas Katsulas (G'kar) 1946-2006
http://www.zteamproductions.com/b5stuff/Andreas.html
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terry
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 112
| Posted 4/21/2006 2:54 AM (GMT -5) | |
nathan said...
I thought the list was meant to show depictions that might be found to be possibly offensive to woman editors. I must have misunderstood?
Innuendo I don't object too. Flat declaration does seem to be pushing it in my mind.
I would love to see this done with the men. This is absolutely fascinating if done precisely and objectively. Is in possible to manipulate the outcomes by choosing some describers in favor of others to fit a preconcieved notion?
Never heard of this before, thanks much.
Hey Nathan, I just put together a response that I promptly managed to lose because, well, I'm a dolt sometimes... I'm too weary to reconstruct it now but truly, this is no 'special technique' or anything it's just me looking for a quick way to find out if the words used to describe the women in this story might have bothered some female editors.
More tomorrow I promise...I did a quick list of 'male descriptors' too for you to consider.
The Depiction of Men in The Blood lace w:st="on">Meridianlace>>>
> >
> >
Sabbath: Beaten and starved, dreadlocks were matted, bearded face, handsome features, once fine specimen, With sure, steady strokes he propelled, a cutthroat killer, In one smooth motion the buccaneer swept up his flintlock, His face was twisted in rage and bloodlust, his scream shrilly frightening. festooned with weapons, ‘ the hour of his vengeance was now. He felt good’, crazed Sabbath, like a hurricane, heart beat like a racing horse Like a wounded animal Sabbath snarled his pain, face a twisted mask of rage. Sabbath rose like a phoenix
> >
> >
Sinclair: liked the feel of the whip in his hands.' …anticipation of another blow.' It made him feel good. A rich plantation owner, Secretary-Governor and primary tax collector, He was like Caligula, a man of station and influence, no leader of men. He was a politician and financier. hand shook as he fired the Dueller
> >
Others: pale redhead with an Irish accent., The henchman, old slave, hard-eyed veterans
Sleep well, and remember, in the grand scheme of things I'm "nobody" just someone who got caught up in your initial post and got to wondering...
Terry
"If you confront the universe with good intentions in your heart, it will reflect that and reward your intent. Usually. It just doesn't always do it in the way you expect." Andreas Katsulas (G'kar) 1946-2006
http://www.zteamproductions.com/b5stuff/Andreas.html
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