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| SFReader Forums > Writing > Gripe! > making too much of this? | Forum Quick Jump
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|  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2122 | Posted 4/16/2006 12:05 PM (GMT -5) |   | | Okay, got a rejection from Leisure books about my horror novel. That, of course sucks, but is to be taken in stride as I move on now to Daw. If you buy into the theory [as I do] that big houses use several ready made forms for rejection ranging from "send us more" to "commit suicide" then my form letter was pretty close to advising me to invest in some sleeping pills.
I was getting already to put it in my "keep to kick myself with later" pile when I noticed the name of the junior editor. Not important who it is, only that it's female.
I know I'm not supposed to say that, probablly not supposed to even *think* that matters but I have to admit that I do. This is anecdotal evidence which is why I don't trust it completely and am bringing it here, but I have to admit that after 2 years of subbing stuff I now cringe at the thought of women reading my stuff and making a yes/no decision on it.
I've only sold one story to a female editor - to bloodlust-uk back when they paid pro rates. All of my sales have been to men. When I get rejections from male editors they tend to be longer and have nice observations about why a story was good but just not right. Women editors are either curt or near insulting. It works identically with reviewers as well I've noticed. Hell, Ideomancer rejections make it seem like they want to come to my house and steal my PC so I can never write again.
I've really started to become phobic of female editor/reviewers to the point where I don't submit to them if I can help it all. Like I said I have sold to one but the difference in how I interacted with them compared to Daniel or Howard or Armand or even Feroze over at Gold Eagle is a gulf. A flaming gulf manned by snipers.
Is it possible that gender could make THAT much difference in how my writing is percieved or am I simply casting about for excuses?
And - if it is possible - what the hell can I do about it? VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews | | Back to Top | | |
   |  Christopher_Heath Eternal Champion

       Date Joined Oct 2005 Total Posts : 1156 | Posted 4/16/2006 7:02 PM (GMT -5) |   | Nathan,
On average, I think there is a difference in what appeals to men and women readers as well. Our brains are wired different. Art is subjective from one man to another, then jump genders and I believe you'll get an even wider range of subjectivity. Not slandering women or men, I just think that's what it comes down to. I've gotten very positive responses from one female editor in particular, but, as with you, if I had my choice between having a male or female editor review my work, I think my chances would fare better with a male editor. Christopher M. Heath
"Azieran: She of the White Lotus" in Sages and Swords by Pitch-Black Books
"Azieran: Bound by Virtue" in Clash of Steel book III by Carnifex Press
"Azieran: Blood and Kings" novella by Carnifex Press
"Azieran: The Frost Scarab of Luunhaat" in Lycanthropes by ComStar Media, LLC
"Azieran: The Young Roué" in Tavern Tales by ComStar Media, LLC
"Azieran: Against the Drimlith" novel by R&R Endeavors, Inc.
"Azieran: The Templar's Chalice" in Prism Quarterly 7.4 by Daybreak Press
+ others
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     |  erazmus Master

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 4546 | Posted 4/16/2006 9:51 PM (GMT -5) |   | Nathan, I've encountered a bit of annectdotal evidence that women editors are more likely to carry an agressive negative response to certain kinds of writing. In the SFandF fields, I believe that a majority of the editors are now women and have been for several years. Particularly the field of fantasy. And this does impact certain kinds of writing, the kind that used to be marketed to appeal to fourteen year old boys. This is often a scorned audience at many houses, the editors don't want to appeal to adolescent male fantasies. They also don't like any writing that doesn't reflect their mostly liberal politics. Thus the lone hero who triumphs over impossible odds is more likely these days to be a female, because such a hero who was male is "anachronistic" and "not viable in todays market". Of course not all female editors march in lock step with their sisters in grinding the gender-politics axe, but enough do to make it tough for those of us writing more male oriented stories to make a sale. It has not quite gotten to a reverse of the situation in the thirties through the sixties, when all editors were male and all genre writers were presumed to be, but that historical quirk is a reason I've heard sited for justifying agressive, anti-male desicions. Turnabout. It would appear that I must pay for John Norman's sins. And you too, Nathan. Mike Michael D. Turner "Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books www.baen.com "Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine #9 Sept. 05 "An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
    |  terry Neophyte

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 112 | Posted 4/17/2006 2:40 AM (GMT -5) |   |
nathan said...
When I get rejections from male editors they tend to be longer and have nice observations about why a story was good but just not right. Women editors are either curt or near insulting. It works identically with reviewers as well I've noticed. .  ...
I've never made a submission nor have I ever been an editor in a position to accept or reject a story. But I am female, so I will make an observatioin and leave it to those who know more to tell me I may be right or I know naught of what I'm speaking...
I'm wondering if the women you encounter are just a bit insecure. Maybe they feel that in order to be taken 'seriously' they need to be 'decisive' and firm in their opinions. Maybe they don't 'know' consciously what they don't like about a story (which could well be their own 'biases' operating below the scenes) only that they don't like it...Maybe they want to read about women heroines or positive magic or what ever... and when they don't see it they simply say no, fearing that if they 'engage' in an explaination they will be perceived as some how less competent?
I guess what I'm trying to explore is whether or not the problem might be somehow 'uncouscious' on the part of these editors and they need to learn to think a little more critically and less 'emotionally' about what they read. And that as you can see is something maybe *I* shouldn't be broaching...
I'd happily review something of yours! If I like it you'll know it and If I don't I'll be sure to explain as well as I can why not...
You deserve some positive, constructive feed back on your work from a female before you judge us all by the bad experiences you've had.
"If you confront the universe with good intentions in your heart, it will reflect that and reward your intent. Usually. It just doesn't always do it in the way you expect." Andreas Katsulas (G'kar) 1946-2006
http://www.zteamproductions.com/b5stuff/Andreas.html
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 |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2122 | Posted 4/17/2006 11:26 AM (GMT -5) |   | Rob wrote: "I say examine your writing to see if you are portraying women and men differently. If you are, that may be the cause. If you aren't, then I feel you are - as your heading suggests - making too much of this"
*******************
Rob I overlooked this line before. I was rather surprised by what it seems to imply. I respect your own success and value your advice. Are you really suggesting I *shouldn't* write male and female characters differently? Am I reading this wrong?
David, I see your points there.
Wow, Terry that's a rather generous offer. The easiest way to read something of mine is to scroll down to the Flashing Swords part of this board and read my stories in the last two issues. Ecspecially the one in #4 as it earned me my tag-line <g>
I will say that I do buy into your theory a tiny bit when it comes to reviewers; of either gender. I feel, as a general statement and not as an observation on any reviewer who has written about my stories, that many reviewers seem to feel they're not doing their job if they're not hunting for something bad to say.
On the editor part I just don't know. If I agree with you then I'm guilty of misogynistic perceptions by painting female editors with a broad paint brush of "insecurity" - so I wouldn't do it even if I did. However it seems to be giving my work a little too much credit to suggest it makes anyone feel insecure. The idea that being an editor at a magazine of big house might make anyone feel insecure I could buy into as a general statement. I just don't know if that *feels* like the answer to me.
I tend to write action. Okay, I only write action. More men seem to read and like action then women. As in Tom Clancy has more male readers while Danielle Steele has more female readers, ect. So I would expect a slight difference in reception. I don't know.
Perhaps as there are [as was pointed out] more female than male editors I simply caught six on a bad day. Since a writer gets more rejection than acceptance and there are more women than men making the yes/no call at magazines this is simply a statistical thing. Don't worry I won't judge all women on the planet by my personal rejection, lol. I'm still feeling gun-shy about female slush editors, though.
It still just shakes out funny when I look over my records.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Rob Santa Sage

       Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 1456 | Posted 4/17/2006 5:23 PM (GMT -5) |   | Yes, I did mean to suggest that you may be writing women and men differently, in that, if the women are always victims that never do anything to influence their environment then it would be understandable that a female editor might take objection. I don't understand how Cinderella and Snow White can continue to be popular stories for girls when the lead characters are non-entities. They do nothing to make change in their lives, they rely solely on the outside influence of other people (usually a man), and they have no redeeming characteristics other than their physiques (perhaps determination in the face of adversity, but that's stretching it). If you are writing your female characters in ways that suggest they are blithering idiots incapable of resolving issues on their own (and I am in no way suggesting that you are), then I could see how you might get feedback from a female editor that would be less than professionally courteous.
I will confess that very few of my main characters are female. This is because I am male, and I don't feel I can properly portray some women from the female persepctive (wow - what a lousy phrasing). However, the ones I have written about are proactive in the resolution of the story's conflicts. In this regard, I write female and male characters as if they were interchangeable. Look at Carl Sagan's "Contact." Does it matter that the lead character is male or female? No. The lead character is independent and smart, gullible in the way of politics, driven by the loss of a parent, open for a relationship with a person of similar interests, and easily sympathetic to the reader. It so happens that she's a she. She could be a he, and it wouldn't affect the story. I feel Sagan wrote this character as female only because he didn't want critics telling him he was writing a fictionalized autobiography.
So when I suggest that you shouldn't be writing male and female characters differently, it is from this perspective. Sword and sorcery has a funny history that makes the hero a guy in most cases and the person in need of rescuing a girl. This can be interpretted as a little misogynistic in our equal opportunity world. For those of us still trying to write classic stories from a classic genre, it may take more educated eyes to see that we are not intentionally being male-oriented pigs but instead dedicating ourselves to a genre. This would be why I try to put something in every save-the-princess story that shows the woman isn't merely a victim in need of a big, strong man to help her. Same with my horror. Of the dozen or so stories I've written, only once was the victim a woman (and she was portrayed through photographs so that I didn't have to elaborate on any of her personal characteristics). It's too easy in our politically correct society to be improperly judged for our innocent actions. Perhaps that is what is happening with your stories. Perhaps a female editor is reading something into the writing that isn't there, which is why I suggested rereading it with that in mind. It will be particularly difficult for you to see what someone else could twist into an insult since you never meant it to be that, but going into the project looking only for that, maybe you will find something. Again, I'm not saying there is any merit to the idea, just that it could be worth a look.
Rob Santa | | Back to Top | | |
 |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2122 | Posted 4/17/2006 6:10 PM (GMT -5) |   | Thanks for spelling that out Rob. Interesting prospective and one I should certainly take under advisement. Funny how things evolve and devolve. I'm not arguing with your post; you are likely exactly right - it just got me free associating. Here we have a situation. In the murky beginings of heroic fiction we have proactive alpha male saving reactive, near helpless female. As a broad stroke this is misogynistic.
So we have a revolution. Now we have strong female characters doing things proactive, being dynamic, doing the hero thing and even the ultra-physical hero thing. Xena, Aeon Flux, Anything by Marion Zimmerman Bradely, girl from Underworld, Alias, etc, etc, etc. This is a good thing, it counter-acts the woman-as-victim trophes and offers a fresh spin on things.
Is it still fresh? It's been happening since the 60's [isolated examples like Joire (sp) before that] with a gaining of momentum up through the 80's 'til today. My point is not that we should go back to the good ole bad days. My point is woman as sterotype is bad, as in one dimensional. Now good/tough/capable just-as-mean-as-the-boys is a much better sterotype than helpless victim, but it's still a sterotype and so one dimensional.
Doesn't it come to a point where perhaps the next stage in evolution is that women (or group of your choice) becomes not a emblem of a sterotype but merely an individual. An individual as capable of helplessness or villinany or perversion as another individual is as capable of courage or heroism or nobility? That is *a* woman character isn't seen as *woman* but as Kelly or Sarah or Anne, individual.
Seeing sterotypes in my stories that are 20 years old, like women warriors or what have you, should be just as much a sterotype as one that is 80 years old, alpha male. I suspect one predjudice has been replaced by another? If I'm writing sterotypical crap then it's 80 year old sterotypical crap instead of 20 year old sterotypical crap; at some point The New must become old.
Okay, that was a pleasant academic diversion. Now I have to go cook after-school snacks for my boys.
[SHAMELESS PLUG] For an example of a fine alpha female warrior please see my story Edge Of Darkness in the upcoming Pitchblack anthology Lords of Swords II![/SHAMELESS PLUG] lol VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews | | Back to Top | | |
  |  BethS Adept
        Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 750 | Posted 4/18/2006 7:31 AM (GMT -5) |   |
Nathan,
It seems to me that we just oughtta write characters as real people rather than worrying about stereotypes. I confess to tiring of books where the female characters are always so self-sufficient that the guys are left with nothing much to do except twiddle their thumbs. In fact, judging by current literature, movies, and TV ads, men have become the frequent targets of abuse and put-downs, which bothers me because a man at his best--when he is acting from principle, from honor, from courage, from love--is worthy of great admiration and respect. Our society today tends toward wanting to emasculate men, but what kind of real man is going to stand aside and let a woman rescue herself? She may be entirely capable of doing it on her own, but that's beside the point.
And no, I'm not in favor of wimpy, passive females either. But if a woman gets in a jam, and a man helps her out of it, what's the big deal? Maybe some day the tables will be turned and that's all right, too--at least, it's all right from the woman's perspective. <g>
The thing is--I think men are (or can be) glorious, wonderful creatures and I admire them tremendously. All I ask of the stories I read is that the writer let men be men, with all the attendant consequences.
~Beth | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Christopher_Heath Eternal Champion

       Date Joined Oct 2005 Total Posts : 1156 | Posted 4/18/2006 11:34 AM (GMT -5) |   | EDIT: Chris you posted while I was writing. If this is a preference you share - or simply sense - have you figured out anyway to handle this?
Short answer: Submit to male editors, if you feel they are more receptive.
Long answer: If you have to submit to female editors, try to balance action with feeling, or even overshadow the action with feeling. I think men like to see a shining blade hacking down a villain and all the glorious detail, while women would want to know less about the physical detail, and how the hero feels doing this. Both are appealing, but the priorities come differently to men and women, on average. Men are tactile and visual, women are sensitive and feeling (just generalizations, everyone). That's just one quick example, but I'm sure there are thousands of things to be done differently to appeal more to women than to men. But, I think the most important thing is that the writer appeal to himself/herself, and just accept it's not going to appeal to everyone. Since you've already sold to a dozen markets, my advice is to just write how you like to write, and your chances may not fare as well with female editors, but wouldn't you rather have a story rejected that you are happy with and can shop elsewhere, than sell something you don't quite like yourself? Money is always a bonus and the feeling of acceptance, but personal satisfaction is more rewarding, I think. There are other markets that would and will accept your stories. Christopher M. Heath
"Azieran: She of the White Lotus" in Sages and Swords by Pitch-Black Books
"Azieran: Bound by Virtue" in Clash of Steel book III by Carnifex Press
"Azieran: Blood and Kings" novella by Carnifex Press
"Azieran: The Frost Scarab of Luunhaat" in Lycanthropes by ComStar Media, LLC
"Azieran: The Young Roué" in Tavern Tales by ComStar Media, LLC
"Azieran: Against the Drimlith" novel by R&R Endeavors, Inc.
"Azieran: The Templar's Chalice" in Prism Quarterly 7.4 by Daybreak Press
+ others
| | Back to Top | | |
    |  ScrewMoonshine Adept

       Date Joined Aug 2005 Total Posts : 885 | Posted 4/18/2006 1:52 PM (GMT -5) |   | Well, I must say I'm totally surprised by the fact that most editors are women; only two of the magazines I've gotten responses from have women editors.
In defense of women, I have to say that my (much more brief) experience has been practically the opposite of Nathan's. One of the two women editors I've heard from gave me a very nice, encouraging, handwritten rejection - and this was for a story in which a woman threatens to accuse a man of an attempted rape that he didn't commit. Now, it's not my belief that a significant number of rape stories are fabricated by the woman, but I can imagine a feminist reading that story would be positively spewing venom. The one rejection I've received which seemed to be trying discourage me from ever submitting again was from a man.
Again, Nathan's been around a lot longer than I, and I'm sure he's not thinking that this is an absolute rule. But for what it's worth there's my story.
I actually prefer the "old" female stereotype to the "new" one. The new one basically portrays women as being like men, which isn't a healthy ideal for young girls to have. Sorry, but women are never going to be as | |
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