I remembered this little piece by Raymond Chandler, and realized that it, more than anything, is a summation of where I think S&S is going. It is from The Gentle Art Of Murder, and though it is about PI fiction, I think it says a lot about S&S as well.

First off--nice work on Napier.

Then. Nice work on that bit of RC wisdom. That's timeless stuff.

To illustrate another facet of what we're talking about I thought I'd get a little multi-media in the illustration of what we're speaking off--using it as methaphor.

Take this great--great old folk song (and in this case the folk song stands in for what we're traditionally think of S&S):

[quote="ye old Irish"]As I was going over the Cork and Kerry Mountains
I saw Captain Farrell and his money he was countin'
I first produced my pistol and then produced my rapier
I said "Stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya"
I took all of his money and it was a pretty penny
I took all of his money yeah and I brought it home to Molly
She swore that she loved me no never would she leave me
But the devil take that woman, yeah, for you know she tricked me easy
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da
Whack for my daddy-o
Whack for my daddy-o
There's whiskey in the jar-o
Being drunk and weary I went to Molly's chamber
Takin' my Molly with me, but I never knew the danger
For about six or maybe seven in walked Captain Farrell
I jumped up, fired my pistols, and I shot him with both barrels
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da, ha, ya
Whack for my daddy-o
Whack for my daddy-o
There's whiskey in the jar-o
Yeah, whiskey, yo, whiskey...
Oh-oh, ya
Now some men like a fishin', but some men like the fowlin'
Some men like to hear, to hear the cannonball a-roarin'
But me, I like sleepin', `specially in my Molly's chamber
But here I am in prison, here I am with a ball and chain, yeah
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da, ha, ya
Whack for my daddy-o
Whack for my daddy-o
There's whiskey in the jar-o
Whiskey in the jar-o
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da, hey
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da, ya [/quote]

Love it. Great story of armed bandits fighting authority and being betrayed by a woman and ending up in prison. Classic stuff. Now look at how its handled by Metallica...and don't be fooled by the PG-13 activety into ignoring the story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cswkEL1O4Hk

You notice nothing has changed in character, setting, plot. Its true to form. Yet is this a minstril with a lute about to play "greensleeves", I ask you?

No it is not. Yet for all its sameness in those attributes its completely different. Do you get the use of imagery to draw analogy or is your mind still reeling from the images of the party   in the video?

This is how you go after "New Edge" I submit. You keep your core...well, core. Hell you keep it literary. You just add power riffs and girls kissing. And given how Robert E Howard was percieved by the Concerned Mothers Leauge way back in the 1920-30's day--you acctually stay true to the original spirit.

On the subject of Irish vs. English I am aghast and can only offer apologizes for typing so off the cuff that I was a part of that.

On Thin Lizzy--eh, I knew.

I just figured the fact that the song pre-dated them as a folk piece was the real point in the comparison--not a blow-by-blow chrono bibliography.

But for the fact that I was so cavilier about switching Irish and English? No excuse. 1000 mea culpas...

...to any Irish offended during the making of my literation.

edit: please note edit in original.

Now does that strike you as a "can do attitude" Mr. The Glass Is Half Empty? Oh, it's too hard! . Glad you didn't work for NASA in the 60's you damn nancy boy

But a good place to start is, what do you mean, literarly, when you say "the world"? We don't mean the world (yeah?) we mean the fantasy reader I think.

Am I missing something in fantasy reading (not mean sarcastically)? I don't see much that's 'edgy' by any stretch. The last time I read something that really made me raise an eyebrow was the Kushiel series by Jaqualine Carrey.

There's been no, say, "splatterpunk" or whatever movement in fantasy like horror or "cyberpunk" movement like in SF. Urban fantasy has gotten more risque or explotive in some areas, but I think I'm might have missed that bleed over into high/low fantasy that resulted in something coherent and signifigent in any big way.

 (note, it might be there and I missed it so if there's more than an isolated example or three I'd like to know so I can read up on it--again not sarcastically.) 

EDIT: though on a more serious note as it pertains to the discussion. Both splatter- and cyber- punk movements were "movements" they came at a time when there genres were in a lull or crowded with sameness and both caused certain uproars and debates and were often coached in "young guns" vs. "old guards" terminology etc. --e.g. splatter punk wasn't just about more gore, it was about using a voice other than Stephen King's, and cyber punk wasn't just about cybernetics it was about the "youthful-nization" of SF as it was seen in mainstream form at that time.

So drawing comparisons on why the "punk movements" worked (whether anyone personally liked or disliked them in the specific) might hone our discussion.

Swordpunk.