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| SFReader Forums > Authors > Michael Ehart > A place for me to blather | Forum Quick Jump
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
      
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 3/5/2008 5:43 PM (GMT -4) |   | | I think you can have both. I know that I have written the Manthycore as completely evil, interested in only what it can gain and malevolent. The Servant is more morally ambivilent--- and is a horrible person as a result of the horrors she has endured. So ya get one from column A and one from column B.
Now I can see Thoth Amon as a evil teenager, going to Evil High, attending the Evil Prom, being a member of the Evil Chess Club, Evil Track and Yearbook...
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 763
| Posted 3/5/2008 5:48 PM (GMT -4) | | MichaelEhart said...
I think you can have both. I know that I have written the Manthycore as completely evil, interested in only what it can gain and malevolent. The Servant is more morally ambivilent--- and is a horrible person as a result of the horrors she has endured. So ya get one from column A and one from column B.
Now I can see Thoth Amon as a evil teenager, going to Evil High, attending the Evil Prom, being a member of the Evil Chess Club, Evil Track and Yearbook...
Don't forget Evil Medical School, thank you very much.
I guess I never saw The Servant as a horrible person. She does horrible things, true, but her humanity and inherent goodness shine through again and again, and she finds herself doing beautiful and merciful and awful and despicable things, all for love.
And here I am debating her motivations with her creator....
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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darkbow
Rabbit lord
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1584
| Posted 3/5/2008 7:08 PM (GMT -4) | | Oh no. They're giving ole Thoth the Darth Vader treatment? Does that mean we can makeover Conan as a farmboy from Tatooine?
Actually, that makes me snicker. Imagine how different Star Wars would have been if Luke had been a Conan descendant.
As for evil villains, I like both the black and white ones and the gray ones. One of my thingies (problems?) as a writer, however, is I'm always trying to think out my main characters' motivations, which usually leads me to coming up with a reason WHY my evil characters are evil. But, funny thing, I don't usually try to explain to myself why my good characters are good ... though I tend to not have a lot of completely good characters (with one fairly big exception, which was done on purpose).
www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com
http://radiodarkbow.blogspot.com Two songs a day, every day.
"Hot Off the Press" Ray Gun Revival #25, 2007
"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in "The Return of the Sword" anthology
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 3/5/2008 7:38 PM (GMT -4) | |
Nik said...
I guess I never saw The Servant as a horrible person. She does horrible things, true, but her humanity and inherent goodness shine through again and again, and she finds herself doing beautiful and merciful and awful and despicable things, all for love.
And here I am debating her motivations with her creator....
No, you are right--- I am in the middle of writing one of her stories, and I am seeing her right now contemplating something pretty awful. But now that I think of it, she is doing yet another dreadful thing.... for love.
Plus, in this story we see Jermaish again, and he really does bring out the worst in her. And, as I think of it, the best, too. So it is complicated, again.
Also, you know, sometimes the creator is too close to see what he is creating, and characters do take on lives of their own.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 763
| Posted 3/5/2008 7:58 PM (GMT -4) | | I'm glad you didn't take it as a psycho-analytical "No Michael, I think this is what you meant..."
Two other reasons I couldn't view the Servant as horrible: 1) without giving away too much, her very significant sacrifice, and 2) her "victims" most often seem to have it coming. Now, to some, revenge and violence are wrong (or horrible), even when committed against the deserving, but I think the eye-for-an-eye, vigilante attitude is a great trait for an S&S character, even one who is "mostly good."
Can you tell I liked the book?
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 763
| Posted 3/20/2008 2:45 PM (GMT -4) | | DraperJC said...
So after catching up on the conversation let me see if I can summarize it a bit:
S&S= Not-Hero, Little or no introspection, Just in it for himself and anything good that happens to other characters is random chance, will generally choose the noble thing to do but it should be convenient for him as well.
Heroic Fantasy= Classic hero, introspective and chooses the noble path even if it means his demise, always looking out for the good of the many.
That's boiling it down pretty well, though I'm not sure it's that simple. Isn't there some cross over? I mentioned Campbell's Ryre before. Would those stories be classified as heroic fantasy or S&S? My take is Campbell's stories are S&S but Ryre exhibits the heroic traits Jeff mentioned above. A conundrum..what do all of you think?
I do think it's important to establish some kind of working definition of these sub-genres for the purposes of this conversation, such as the definitions listed at Flashing Swords.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 3/20/2008 3:44 PM (GMT -4) | | Yeah, I think Jeff is pretty close to nailing the concensus here, though Nik is right, there does need to be some wigglee room. Some things are just hard to classify, and sometimes the reader's experience is different from the writer's intention.
Click here to buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, March 30
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" They're Not What They Seem, Cyberwizard, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 763
| Posted 3/20/2008 3:49 PM (GMT -4) | | This might help: www.swordandsorcery.org/demarcation-of-sword-and-sorcery.htm
Can't believe I didn't think of posting this before.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
|
Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 763
| Posted 3/20/2008 10:49 PM (GMT -4) | | Nevermind. I just remembered Meyer beat me to it. in a previous post.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2951
| Posted 3/23/2008 8:43 PM (GMT -4) | |
DraperJC said...So after catching up on the conversation let me see if I can summarize it a bit: S&S= Not-Hero, Little or no introspection, Just in it for himself and anything good that happens to other characters is random chance, will generally choose the noble thing to do but it should be convenient for him as well. Heroic Fantasy= Classic hero, introspective and chooses the noble path even if it means his demise, always looking out for the good of the many.
Well, H.P. only said he was currently seeing the Not-Hero. While I liked that observation, I'd rather be not-seeing the not-hero, to be honest. I liked that young, broad-skill-based hero, whether he was heroic by accident or not. Otherwise, I guess I agree with Jeff's description of S&S, but the keys to me are that the character is (1) most obviously 'heroic' i.e., the power of sheer presence - overwhelming size, strength, sword skill, and smarts --- and the more of all of them the better, but some can still attain heroic stature without all of these, such as the Mouser -- and (2) the last component of Jeff's definition, that the characters generally chooses the noble thing to do - not because it is noble, but because it is convenient, self-beneficial and -serving. If it takes saving the race of man for this specific man to continue living and enjoying the here and now, well by Crom! he damn well will do whatever it takes!
The one component that is least important to me, that I would actually prefer more of, honestly, is the little or no introspection part. Bruce reads Erikson (not sure who all else does), so perhaps he'll voice his agree/disagreement on this - but I think Erikson's writing a helluva hybrid of S&S and epic fantasy. He's putting out 600-1000 page books in a 10-book series for goodness sake, can't get much more epic than that! But each of his novels are overflowing with characters that could populate their own S&S short story collection in a heartbeat. I've not heard the man himself mention this, I've not heard anyone else talk about it; all I know is that I see what Erikson is writing as a blending of the characters of S&S in the sets of epic fantasy - and that it's what I wanted to write once upon a time.
Here's something for ya: Don't know who's all noticed it, but I've taken to using Heroic Adventure for what I'm looking for for Flashing Swords Press books and what I would like to much more heavily pursue in Flashing Swords Zine. For me, the term encompasses both Heroic Fantasy (the altruistic hero) and S&S (the capitalizing hero). To be honest, RotS is much more the former, though it's constantly brought up in conversations of the later. The stories I hope to be working with for a long, long time are those that range from the middle to the S&S end of the heroic barometer so nicely defined in that article at swordandsorcery.org - the one with Fritz on one end, JRR on the other.
(My one political comment: Please refrain from associating B.H.O. with anything we discuss in the non-Anything Goes or political threads here. Please)
~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 3/24/2008 5:54 PM (GMT -4) | | Almost everyone I talked with this weekend about where fiction was going , especially heroic fantasy and S&S agreed that the more American model is probably where things are going. Peoeple love stories that start with the classic failed moral dilemma and go from there. Redemption stories, whether or not the character chooses redemption, are very American, from the "Good Bad Man" of the western pulps, through Phillip Marlowe and Sam Spade, Conan, Elric, Butch Cassiday and the Sundance Kid, Han Solo, Riddick and most recently and extremely, Dexter. Introspection is optional--- Spenser certainly is, and Dexter may be the most self-absorbed character in current fiction.
Click here to buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, March 30
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" They're Not What They Seem, Cyberwizard, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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darkbow
Rabbit lord
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1584
| Posted 3/24/2008 6:35 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2951
| Posted 3/24/2008 6:58 PM (GMT -4) | | You guys are sick! I didn't know who the L 'Dexter' was, so I had to Google him - my God, people! America's watching -- and LOVING!??!?! - a weekly serial killer soap opera?!?!? I liked all those other names you pulled in Michael, especially Riddick, as I'd forgotten him and he definitely fits, but Dexter? Based upon the wiki write up, he ain't on any of my hero lists. Shit, if we give him a black rubber cod piece and a utility belt, is he suppposed to be our 'New Age Batman'??
The Shield's Vic makes a better heroic figure than Dexter does - but what's sad is, today's blind masses would love a real-deal killer such as this Dexter prick while simultaneously demanding a real-life Vic be crucified. If this is the purchasing public we need to appeal to, I'm in trouble.
~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
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darkbow
Rabbit lord
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1584
| Posted 3/24/2008 9:02 PM (GMT -4) | | Ha! I know how you feel about Dexter. But compared to most of the scum he deals with, Dexter is a pretty nice guy. That should tell you a lot about the kind of folks he runs into.
To be somewhat fair to Dex, though, he's almost more of a vigilante than a straight-out serial killer, though he operates more like a serial killer. Think of him as the Punisher, but with knives and a hand drill instead of guns.
And, I think part of the appeal to Dexter is his inner struggle. I can't say I'm a huge Dexter fan, but I am definitely interested in his audience, those he seems to appeal to. I've even read the most recent of the Dexter books, which was actually a very fun read, and brought an almost supernatural element into Dexter's story that I've yet to see in any episodes of the TV show I've watched.
Dexter's is a dark humor, reminding me a bit of the humor found in some modern writers like Joe Konrath.
www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com
http://radiodarkbow.blogspot.com Two songs a day, every day.
"Walking Between the Rain" Every Day Fiction on March 21, 2008
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in "The Return of the Sword" anthology
"Hot Off the Press" Ray Gun Revival #25, 2007 | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 3/24/2008 9:04 PM (GMT -4) | | I watched the entire first season of Dexter-- you see the deal is that Dexter only kills other serial killers. He is a nationally known spatter expert, and so gets the inside dope that lets him do his thing.
It is reprehensible, sick and extremely compelling.
He was an example of the poor moral choice, perhaps not the best for the hero example. :)
Click here to buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, March 30
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" They're Not What They Seem, Cyberwizard, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2951
| Posted 3/25/2008 1:09 PM (GMT -4) | |
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