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| SFReader Forums > Authors > Michael Ehart > A place for me to blather | Forum Quick Jump
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nathan
Sage
      
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2113
| Posted 2/25/2008 6:03 PM (GMT -4) |   | | This whole thing gets a bit murky--which makes it fun to discuss. I would think that under what you're saying Elric might have qualified. Conan of the "Phoenix in the Sword Conan", and Kull would have qualified.
How closely you marry S&S into epic fantasy might play a part. The real question becomes, perhaps, if you change the trophes too much is still even the thing you started out trying to write?
For 'feel' I think as long as you had a "low fantasy" setting you get some breathing room for the archetype of your hero.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774
| Posted 2/25/2008 6:09 PM (GMT -4) | | nathan said...
For 'feel' I think as long as you had a "low fantasy" setting you get some breathing room for the archetype of your hero.
Good point. Can't underestimate the importance of setting. In saying this, I'm guessing you also include how the setting is populated (as in, S&S has a distinct lack of elves and what not)?
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2113
| Posted 2/25/2008 6:12 PM (GMT -4) | | Nik, I stold this from the wiki out of laziness but I think it right on, IMO.
Low fantasy is an umbrella term, describing various works within different sub-genres of fantasy, to contrast specific works with high fantasy. Though a very vague term, features that may indicate low fantasy downplaying of epic or dramatic aspects; includes de-emphasising magic; real-world settings; favouring of realism, cynical storytelling; and dark fantasy. The archetypal example of low fantasy would be a story taking place in a historical setting where the protagonists lack magic, and where conventional fantasy elements especially typical fantasy species such as elves or dwarves, are lacking
Fantasy literature that has a relatively low amount of magic and the supernatural. Magic and fantastic races and creatures may be present, but are not emphasized as in high fantasy.
Fantasy with a large degree of gritty realism about conditions of life in a medieval society, dirt, disease, power, or money.
Fantasy set in the real world with fantastic elements, like magic and monsters: contemporary fantasy or historical fantasy.
Fantasy using a non-epic world view, as, for instance, not including an absolute evil.
Fantasy where the protagonists are ordinary people, heroic only in character if at all (usually also an aspect of dark fantasy).
Fantasy concerned with everyday life, as opposed to world-shaking quests.
Fantasy written in a plain-spoken as opposed to an elevated style. (The diminishing stylistic influence of J.R.R. Tolkien and Lord Dunsany has made this definition less useful, as high fantasy is decreasingly marked out stylistically.)
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774
| Posted 2/25/2008 6:25 PM (GMT -4) | | That definition just gave me a dozen reasons why I prefer S&S settings and characteristics. Thanks for sharing.
Given what you just said, I think maybe all I'm talking about is tweaking the S&S character. If setting is 75%, how much is character? 25% or less, right?--would changing that a bit make it NOT S&S? I personally don't t think so. I'm not suggesting we throw an elven sorceress into an S&S story. I'm saying we take that S&S barbarian or thief or Amazon or immortal or whatever and alter his/her world view and motivations a bit.
Hell, Ehart's already done this with his Manthycore tales, in my opinion. In old school S&S, it seems you cheer for the protag because he or she deals with everything in a no-nonsense/no-bullshit-toleration sort of way in which you sometimes wish you could. I mean, how many politicians would I like to axe, and how many people I encounter on my commute would I love to impale (at least in my momentary rage)? It would be so much easier, and so much more fun!
In the "new school" of S&S, so to speak, in tales like Manthycore, you cheer for the protag because you feel for him/her, because you can relate somewhat to his/her plight. Maybe there's the difference I'm talking about.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2324
| Posted 2/25/2008 7:38 PM (GMT -4) | | Motivation does seem to be a key. While I think if you asked Conan why he did such dangerous stuff, he would think you crazy for asking, and point to the loot. But in nearly every story his motivation changed part way through, and that may be part of what has kept the ole Cimmerian popular all these years.
I think the difference between the old stuff and the new may be one of noir plotting--- the poor choice at the beginning that requires the protagonist to take action. I think reading audiences have become so sophisticated that they are no longer willing to accept that the hero got into a fix through no fault of his own, as a result of someone else's machinations, but rather that a series of choices, or one reallllly bad one, got him there. "There will be Blood" just walked away with a stack of statuettes, and the story is entirely about one man's poor choices and their consequences.
More blathering from me and still more questions than answers. But I know what we are reaching for is there, somewhere.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774
| Posted 2/25/2008 7:43 PM (GMT -4) | | I have noticed a tendency toward character-oriented stories like this.
Was I off the mark, then, with my comments on Servant, Michael? I'm only about 1/3-1/2 of the way through, so maybe more is revealed about how the Servant acquired the talisman, and maybe that revelation (a poor choice?) will make me see it as "noir?"
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2324
| Posted 2/25/2008 9:23 PM (GMT -4) | | No, I don't think so. I think that the origin is only clarified a bit.
Noir is still just one of the influences, and I am using a few of its tropes to try and get a handle on where fantasy is headed. The Servant certainly makes some poor choices, and her moral dilemma is as grim as my skills can make it. Is she a noir character? Perhaps noirish.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2992
| Posted 2/26/2008 12:13 AM (GMT -4) | | There's been some brilliant observations posted here, and this is a fascinating thread - I'd love to toss this whole concept onto all our respective (for those who have them) blogs and get a cross blog discussion going - drive some readers to all of us.
~~~~ So pursuing who I brought up earlier, would a Wolverine-styled character be enough of an "introspective, soul searching hero" or "doubtful, angst-ridden protagonist" within an "anchoring/grounding [of the] story in a low fantasy setting" to qualify as a new S&S - or simply just a version of the old tried and true S&S? And speaking of S&S, how come there's nary a comment on my suggestions for a new S&S?
~~~~~~~~~~ Jason M. Waltz Assistant Managing Editor Flashing Swords Press~~~~~~~~~~ Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz?
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774
| Posted 2/26/2008 12:45 AM (GMT -4) | | As I said before, I like the idea of Wolverine as the template for a new S&S hero. Though, he didn't really cause problems for himself like in the aforementioned noir-style stories--the government just screwed him. (Hey, we can all relate to that!) He's got anger and revenge issues, but they're tempered by a conscience. I think you put a sword in his hand and drop him in a ancient or medieval setting, and you have yourself a good S&S story.
I put a post on my blog about this thread, but I don't think I sent any traffic this way. You guys with actual people who read your blogs should give it a try, though.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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che2000
doc caliban
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 465
| Posted 2/26/2008 10:29 AM (GMT -4) | | Maybe, in a sense, it’s time to look at not what we write but how we write.
It strikes me that, almost since its inception and certainly in the years that have followed, the field of sword and sorcery has maintained an almost ‘anti-literary’ stance, rather in the way that British horror did during the 1970’s and early ‘80’s (I’m in particular reference to the Pan Books of Horror under the editorship of Herbert Van Thal which were avowedly anti-literary).
If one thinks of the movements which have revitalized science fiction – the New Wave in the 1960’s, Cyberpunk in the 1980’s – there was a willingness to experiment, to take traditional forms and apply new techniques (or at least techniques appropriated from the Mainstream) to create a new approach to the business of how one places words on paper.
It seems to me that S&S in particular (and most other forms of fantasy) remains firmly wedded to traditional narrative forms - to an extent whereby even first person narrative is a relative rarity, particularly in the long form – and literary experimentation tends to be frowned upon. (There are, of course, exceptions to this - I’m thinking primarily of M. John Harrison and his Viriconium novels and stories or Gene Wolfe’s New Sun novels).
Now this may have much to do with the evolution of S&S whereby the rules and conventions laid down in the pulp magazines of the 1930’s have remained little changed to this very day, or indeed with the genre’s deeper roots within myth and legend, but if science fiction (who’s roots also lie with both the pulps and mythology) can adapt, then why can’t other forms of fantastic or speculative fiction?
Maybe what we need is not a new type of hero but a willingness to evolve.
"That blackguard Flashman, who never speaks to one without a kick or an oath--"
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774
| Posted 2/26/2008 12:32 PM (GMT -4) | | che2000 said...
Maybe, in a sense, it’s time to look at not what we write but how we write...Maybe what we need is not a new type of hero but a willingness to evolve.
I agree with a lot of what you said here--much of it echoes my own thoughts. I do think, however, there is a limitation to how far you can let the way we write S&S evolve before it becomes something else. If we get TOO experimental, we lose sight of what makes S&S what it is, cinematic pacing being one thing that comes to mind. I still think we can maintain this kind of pacing while "beautifying" the language we use.
You also talked about a revitalization of SciFi, but that came about with the advent of NEW sub-genres. When we talk about S&S, we're already talking about a sub-genre and this might complicate things. What do you all think?
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2113
| Posted 2/26/2008 2:18 PM (GMT -4) | | This discussion had me thinking. What I kept circling around was the presumption that S&S needed changing in order to work. Now, if you look at S&S in terms of the bottom of the barrel--in terms only of northern barbarians with limited intelligence doing cave man things--than yeah.
But I honestly don't think that original S&S was that narrowly defined. Here's a
http://www.swordandsorcery.org/articles.htm
link to the old Pitch Black/Howard Jones of now Blackgate fame/Sord&Sorcery site. I don't want to seem like I'm assigning homework and some of the older site members might have already read some of these excellant articles, but for those who haven't, and who enjoy the topic it's good reading, fun stuff.
I came to the conclusion that S&S doesn't need to be reinvented--even if the hard cliches must be avoided. S&S was always much broader than that anyway--it's just been reduced. I think a talented writer writing squarely within S&S parameters could write and publish a *novel* today.
I didn't think so at the start of the conversation. Just thoughts.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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Nik
Adept
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774
| Posted 2/26/2008 2:35 PM (GMT -4) | | Yes, most or all of us have read these, but it doesn't hurt to refresh our memories to assure that we're all speaking within the same context and drawing from a common base of knowledge.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction
Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2324
| Posted 2/27/2008 2:16 AM (GMT -4) | | Hard for me to committ to anything more than what I have on my plate as it is, but chances are, looking at what is scheduled, I will be writing in the 50k range in November, and yes, it will be S&S :)
Unless...
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2113
| Posted 2/27/2008 3:10 PM (GMT -4) | | Up the site someone was asking for a recommendation of Kane stories. In it I typed quickly off the top of my heard: "Kane is a Byronic Hero on anabolic steroids. And meth."
Then I began to think about Byronic Hero and I thought, Conan was one. Elric was one. Kane was one in spades. So I went to wiki to make sure I wasn't confused and this what a Byronic hero is listed as:
The Byronic hero is an idealized, but flawed, character exemplified in the life and writings of Lord Byron, characterized by his ex-lover Lady Caroline Lamb as being "mad, bad and dangerous to know". The Byronic hero first appears in Byron's semi-autobiographical epic narrative poem Childe Harold's Pilgrimage (1812-18). The Byronic hero has the following characteristics:
conflicting emotions, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness
self-critical and introspective
struggles with integrity
a distaste for social institutions and social norms
being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw
has "dark" attributes not normally associated with heroes
struggle with sexual identity (homosexual, sleeps with many women, etc.)
a lack of respect for rank and privilege
a troubled past
being cynical, demanding, and/or arrogant
often self-destructive
loner, often rejected from society
That seems the crux of a S&S traditional hero as well. This concept of a unthinking superman neandertal is a sterotype used to denigrate or parody the field. A character with those Byronic tendecies is a hallmark (if not exclusive) character in S&S--and I would submit the Byronic hero is publishable in today's editorial atmosphere.
Just thoughts anyway.
EDIT: so really if people agree with my take (and they may not by all means) we then have a simplistic, but stylistically handy definition of S&S as: Byronic but physical character in a low fantasy setting.
Thoughts on that? Do I simpify too far or does that ring true?
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2324
| Posted 2/27/2008 3:26 PM (GMT -4) | | Which I agree, should be quite publishable.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, TBA
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
| | Back to Top | | |
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