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| SFReader Forums > Authors > Michael Ehart > A place for me to blather | Forum Quick Jump
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|  MichaelEhart Forum Moderator

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 2314 | Posted 1/24/2008 4:31 PM (GMT -4) |   | | Not that I miss many opportunites elsewhere. But I do intend to use this forum to rant about writerly things that may not be of great interest in some of the other places I post.
Case in point? I wrote this last night on my blog:
...the story did some things that I have been slowly working toward with the stories from the start, stylistic things that I have been groping at and have slowing been able to find.
This might be a good place to discuss those stylistic things. For quite a while, the Fantasy genre has been dominated by Jordan-like Tolkien derivatives, massive tomes of castle drama chunked into 500 page doses. I have no problem with that, because of course for the longest time that has been what sold best, but I think that it also has ghettoized an already fairly isolated genre even further. That people read less is not in question, but the fact that Harry Potter openings had to have security guards and Dan Brown's dreadful piece of hackwork sold more copies in five years than Catcher in the Rye has in 40 tells me that people will still buy books, if you give them a fantasy that they actually want to read.
Now, if I knew the secret to what that actually might be, a lot more than the 80 or so people a week who read this blog would be tuning in. But I do know what I'd like to see, what I have spent money on the last 40+ years of my reading life, and a part of that is what drives me to write what I write, in the fashion that I do.
Fantasy has been dominated by the Brits, with even the most American of writers writing Brit tropes, in imitation of Brit writers. I am an American, and while I love me some Tolkien, I also have a taste for American pulp fiction.
It would be ridiculously pretentious of me to say that I really know what I'm doing here, but what I'm trying to do is write Fantasy in a distinctly American voice, with American sensibilities and expectations. I have some thoughts for myself that may be useful for someone else who may have had that nagging little desire to write something different, but hasn't quite figured out what. Not saying anyone else needs to follow Michael's ideas, but they might give you something to think about.
1. As much as I appreciate the term Sword and Sorcery, I'm not certain it applies anymore. To most people it means bad Conan rip-offs on late night TV and Xena the Warrior Princess. Originally it applied to some pretty gritty stuff, including Howard's original Conan, Lieber's anti-heroes Fafred and the Grey Mouser, and Moorcock's very dark Elric stories. These were not written for kids, they were hard-core pulpy works of sock-you-in-the-eye fiction. I'm not certain what we should be calling it, but it is probably time for a re-branding.
2. With that re-branding should come a re-thinking. The genre came from the pulps. They were adventure stories, some with historical basis, many without. In fact, many were closer to westerns or hard-boiled detective stories than the high fantasy of the multi-volume doorstop type. I had a critic call one of my stories "Castle Noir", which I thought was pretty cool. I am thinking that good heroic fantasy might do well to forget the anglophile Tolkien tropes, character types and the whole idea of "races" and concentrate on mood, character, plot and atmosphere rather than the too-often seen half-elf on a quest to partner up with a dragon-rider and a trusty wood ranger.
3. So for this post, I'm going to call the stuff I have been trying to write "Hard-Boiled Fantasy", because those distinctive American forms of the Hard-Boiled Detective and the film noir feeling of failed moral choice and struggle for redemption has guided some of the best, or at least most enjoyable reading and movie-going I have experienced, from High Noon and Shane to The Maltese Falcon and the Long-Legged Fly.
There will be more of this, as I can work it out. As I said, I am groping toward something here, something that I hope will make what I write better for me as the writer and more interesting and alive to you as the reader. I may be miles off base here, but that problem is self-correcting: if people stop buying my stuff or writing me to tell me they like it, then I will know.
In the mean time, feel free to tell me what YOU think in the comments.
I'm not entirely certain that that will be of much interest to a casual fan who is looking for the latest Joe Denfar or Servant of the Manthycore piece, or hoping to catch a reading at their favorite con. But it is a discussion I am interested in having, and this forum will keep me from hijacking someone elses thread with my brain droppings.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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  |  MichaelEhart Forum Moderator

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 2314 | Posted 1/24/2008 6:40 PM (GMT -4) |   | No, there is a lot of urban fantasy and paranormal romance to fill that slot, and some very good stuff is being written, along with the usual trash, of course. Kat Richardson's series is a great example of how good this sort of thing can be.. No, I am talking about the direction S&S or heroic fantasy has gone, instead of following its pulpy roots. And by American I don't mean set in America, I mean with the style that in nearly every other genre is instantly recognizable as American, that style and energy and rough-edged bite that makes so much of American fiction great. Note that non-Americans can produce the same style... can't really beat Raymond Chandler, who spent most of his young life in the UK. Like I said, I am groping here, not really certain of where I am going. Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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 |  Christopher_Heath Eternal Champion

       Date Joined Oct 2005 Total Posts : 1156 | Posted 1/24/2008 9:27 PM (GMT -4) |   | What about simply "Fantasy Noir" for a re-branding? I personally don't have a problem with "Sword and Sorcery", though. Real fantasists get what it's about. Christopher M. Heath
"Azieran: Kaiburr the Rotund" in Silly Fant Antho by Cyberwizard Prod. and Res. Aliens
"Azieran: Claimed by Birthright" in Return of the Sword by Flashing Swords Press
"Azieran: Oathbreaker's Promise" in Flashing Swords
"Azieran: The Hollow Kings" in Flashing Swords
"Azieran: Adairos" in Tower of Light Fantasy
"Azieran: Savior in a Flask" in Magic and Mechanica by Ricasso Press
"Azieran: The Travelers Four" in Black Dragon, White Dragon by Ricasso Press
"Azieran: The Breaking of Hell's Bones" in Black Sails by 1018 Press
"Azieran: Distilling the Essence" in Sails and Sorcery by Fantasist Enterprises
"Azieran: Crestfallen in Mal'kyrrik" serialized novella in Forgotten Worlds
+ others
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  |  Nik Adept

       Date Joined Feb 2007 Total Posts : 759 | Posted 1/25/2008 1:19 AM (GMT -4) |   | Tolkienesque, Lovecraftian, Howardian........Ehartistic?
I'm with you, Michael. Maybe "red-blooded fantasy" would fit the fiction you're describing? To me, it evokes the energy and adventure and grittiness you mention. I'm afraid "hard-boiled" would make people think of eggs.
But, like Christopher, I'm not sure sword & sorcery no longer works. The term was coined by an American, after all, and one of the fathers of the genre, REH, was American through and through with a distinctly American style. Can a genre evolve but maintain the same name without becoming its own sub-genre?
If not, I love the idea of trying to come up with a new name.
Maybe I'll have more ideas after I read Servant. It's on my stack of must-reads on my night stand... Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming "Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Winter 2008
Published "Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
   |  che2000 doc caliban

       Date Joined Oct 2006 Total Posts : 435 | Posted 1/25/2008 1:20 PM (GMT -4) |   | I think the reason why modern (commercial) fantasy is dominated by an Anglo sensibility is, in large part, to do with the ages of our respective nations, their paths to nationhood and their mythology.
Tolkien Peake, Moorcock et al tapped into a deep, very European sensibility – the notion of Gotterdammerung, a reaction to do with the fall of empire (even if some of them whole-heartedly agreed with it) and European fantasy has been following the same path ever since (two world wars fought on home soil will do that to you, I think).
However, writers like Lieber, Howard and Burroughs, in my opinion, have produced what is very recognisably American fantasy, even if the milieu is not.
It stems, in part, from where our myths come from. European myths are, by definition, much older than those of America and the function of the myth in a European context is to preserve the status quo, to keep the wolf (or Mordred or Hitler or Ghengis Khan) from the door. The ultimate fate of the hero is to die – to present a tragic face to the world, an imitation of Christ, if you like.
American myths are as much more to do with creating civilisation (and by this I mean the myths of the Frontier, as opposed to, say, the myths and legend of the Navajo or Sioux). The hero can still be a tragic one, but it is his life rather than his death which is celebrated. What matters is the resonance of the character in popular culture and how facts become less important than the interpretation of legend. (And before anyone cries ‘foul’, I am referring to mythology in its broadest possible form – as an Ulster-Scot I was almost lynched for suggesting that the Siege of Derry had become a mythological event, since the facts were now less important than the interpretation.)
In this respect, Tolkien is probably closer to the American model that might appear at first glance. His heroes live, they strive, survive and prosper (at least the important and/or cuddly ones do). Similarly, Conan will always live and prosper, so too will Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Philip Marlowe, Lew Archer (although very often the prosperity is a moral rather than financial one).
Coversely, Titus Groan must go into exile, Elric must die, so must Arthur and Launcelot, Cu Chullain and Finn and, in doing so, they create the world anew (literally, in Elric’s case). Contrast this with, for example, Davy Crockett, whose death propells the nation forward, rather than giving rise to its rebirth – similarly, the death of William Bonney heralds the arrival of ‘civilized society'.
How one writes fantasy is a matter of outlook, the settings are secondary.
Of course, equally and more succinctly, one could simply say that the Tolkien model has proven commercially successful and a lot of writers are more concerned with commerce than art.
"It's Doctor Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister," thank you very much." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  MichaelEhart Forum Moderator

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 2314 | Posted 1/25/2008 4:33 PM (GMT -4) |   | Oh no! More for me to think about! Ehartistic! Good grief! :) I think, in agreement with Howard Jones, that we are on a cusp of sorts, where we have pretty much reached a place where the ferment needs to produce something new. I'm not certain what it will be, or what form the change will take, but an example of what can happen would be cyberpunk, which took a number of grown-stale tropes and shook them up. Certainly all the parts were already there. It isn't that those who are writing now are any less than the giants on whose shoulders we stand. And from the responses here I can see that many of us are groping for the answer, whatever that is. che, you are right, of course. Much of how we write our fantasy will depend on both our personal and cultural world-view, and the frontier is the American mythology. Even in contemporary settings, how many "lone wolf" cop movies get made each year? Is Bad Boys terribly different from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? Live Free or Die Hard from High Noon? They are all built on the rugged frontiersman model.
Made me have a thought about my Manthycore stories, because in fact she travels the world at a time when civilization is being invented, which is not that much different from it being brought to an untamed land. Wow, am I re-writing Shane? :) Not a bad place to be , actually, though big footprints to fill.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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 |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2111 | Posted 1/26/2008 4:42 PM (GMT -4) |   | I was terribly Ehartistic for about two years. A new perscription and some intense couselling have brought it under control (you're never really cured of Ehartism) and I'm a functioning and productive member of society now.
I was reading about literary deconstruction and Conan just last night (and learned that I was quite found of the "Hang a Lampshade On It" writing device without even knowing it--which comes from writting books in a series with over 500 entries, I think) and came across a quote I can't find via google now but to paraphrase:
"There is no real originality, there is only people writing with passion and energy as if what they are writting has never been written before."
That kind of smacked me in the face. Perhaps all S&S needs to return to return to competeing range with High Fantasy is not a re-invention per se but simply for a writer of solid skills to write a S&S novel without any self-awarness of the subgenre or trophes with all their passion and energy then look mildly confused (as apperantly JK ROwling was when it was pointed out to her that she was writing Fantasy) when someone compares his cynical lone wolf heroic swordsmen to Conan.
In fact it is too bad the archtype is SO strong in our collective literary memory because really---in a Barnes & Noble fantasy section that has been filled with eclectic bands of misfits journeying on philentrophic travelouges for years & years, a lone, bloody minded alpha male (or female, Mike) *IS* something different. Something that hasn't been seen outside of comics and video games in strength for maybe twenty years.
Yet despite two decades between now and the death throws of S&S as book, way back in the 1980's, editors are going to think "they've seen it too much before"--and never mind that they may never have ever read Karl Edward Wagner or Robert E Howard. Meanwhile they'll keeping publishing in a straight unbroken line from JRR T through Terry Brooks to Robert Jordon (yes I know he wrote a Conan book in the 1990's) without batting an eye.
Of course this could all be symptoms of my Ehartism.
VIEW IMAGE "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  MichaelEhart Forum Moderator

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 2314 | Posted 1/27/2008 2:18 AM (GMT -4) |   | There is an axiom among stage magicians that a new trick is just one your audience hasn't seen.
I'm not certain I need the reader to catch all the little nuances, especially the genre-history references. I mostly want the reader to... what?
Feel something, learn something? Have another bit of their shared humanity illuminated? At least be entertained.
And I for one am ready to sell out. Offer me some Dan Brown money, baby, and see how fast I am writing dragons and elves and farm boys of destiny and halflings and thieves and rangers and half-orcs and demi-tree elves and half-dwarven wood rangers on quests to save Sunshinia from the Dread Overlord Spitnail. I'll hate myself. I'll hate myself like crazy. Then, from the leisure of my villa in Tuscany I can gaze out across the vine-covered valley and opine about trends in heroic fantasy.
Or not. In the meantime I think we are all groping for something here, because we are on the cusp of something, and a thing is going to happen and then more things will bust loose, and junk.
It is just frustrating as all get out to not quite be able to grasp it yet. Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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 |  Bruce Durham Crom's Administrator & Drinking Buddy

       Date Joined Jan 2005 Total Posts : 605 | Posted 1/28/2008 4:29 PM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
    |  von Darkmoor Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

       Date Joined Dec 2005 Total Posts : 2940 | Posted 1/29/2008 4:34 AM (GMT -4) |   | | Excellent post, doc caliban! Many intriguing thoughts posted by the lot of ye as well.
~~~
How 'bout finding the next great S&S character in Wolverine - quickly, too, as his star is waning? Of all the new-age heros, anti-heros, wanna-be-heros, he best represents what I think S&S is looking for.
And a new name? Probably hard to find until we have a character or author to hitch it to. A major name to bring it home, drive it to the forefront. Here's what happens today: Say high fantasy, think Tolkein, for that matter say fantasy, think Tolkein, epic quests of groups of buddies, fairly cut and dried forces of good and evil, a smidgeon of waverers. Sure the movies did that, but it was almost that way prior to Jackson ever thinking about directing them. Say S&S, think Conan, think Arnold, think farce.
We need to reassociate S&S with the lone wolf American - the Jason Bourne of fantasy. For that matter, I think we should toss the term 'fantasy' and all the trains of baggage it drags with it. Whatever happened to "men's adventure"? Sure, make it PC now-a-days and call it "adventure fiction" or some such, "sword and shield" "sword & sandle" "sword & sex" for that matter. I read a terrific comparison of the Bond character and movies with the Bourne character and movies -I'll have to find it again. Though the author was a liberal prick who chased a few unimportant tangents, he proceeded to do a damn fine comparison of the American vs. British cultures/mindsets as personified through their respective ultimate spy-character. That description, that summation, of Bourne, is what we need to find in fantastic adventure again.
The Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, Jack London, Paul Bunyon of a sword-slinger who slices-and-dices toe-to-toe with Wolverine and counts the cost later.
That's the American 'tude - you pull that off, you've got yourself the new hero of S&S. Then you can rename the genre.
~~~~ Great, great thread, Mike! Worth discussing further. When i've the time, I think I'll toss these thoughts out on www.hvond.wordpress.com
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    |  DraperJC Fictional

       Date Joined Aug 2007 Total Posts : 58 | Posted 1/30/2008 5:44 PM (GMT -4) |  |
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