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| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Black Gate > Black Gate World Building | Forum Quick Jump
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peadarog
Acolyte
      
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 9/9/2007 5:15 PM (GMT -4) |   | Thanks for all the flattery, Howard!
I don't claim to be anything special in that regard, but what is true is that one of my main reasons for reading fantasy, SF, historical fiction etc, is that I like my books to take me somewhere I haven't been before. Not only do I want to see new worlds, I want them to be consistent and completely true to themselves. Where other writers look for holes in a plot, I look for holes in a world.
To give one example that I often see in fantasy: if the wizards are so powerful, how come they're not the ones in charge? If that isn't explained for me in some way, I find it hard to suspend my disbelief of anything else that happens in the story either. A writer needs to think through the consequences of certain aspects of his or her world or it will feel false in the same way that an inconsistent character does.
And speaking of characters, they have to inhabit their world completely. And not ours. I think it's safe enough to say that regular readers of BG are all happy enough to read stories set in a pseudo European middle-ages setting. People who live in such a setting do not think like us -- they *can't*. I once saw somebody criticise George R. R. Martin for marrying young girls off at twelve, as if he were some kind of wannabe pedophile. But the fact is, life expectancy was so poor in the middle-ages, that people married as soon as they could, had kids and, presuming they lived so long, were old by the time they hit 40. To wish otherwise, to have your weddings at 18 or older, is a modern way of looking at things and to my mind, poor world-building.
Peadar O Guilin
Available now:
"Twig" From Adventures of Sword and Sorcery #7
"The Bag" in Reckless abandon
"The Mourning Trees" in Black Gate #5
"Fairy Fort" in A Walk on the Darkside
"Hair" in www.feralfiction.com
"Hurdy-Gurdy" in Dark Arts
Coming Soon:
"The Drain" in Weird Tales
"Where Beauty Lies in Wait" in Black Gate
The Inferior from David Fickling Books. Coming 6 September 2007. | | Back to Top | | |
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CharlesRR
No Comment
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 9/9/2007 8:18 PM (GMT -4) | | On a fairly basic level, a trick I learned from an essay in Imaginary Worlds by the late Lin Carter, was base your fantasy continents on real ones. That way you don't have deserts of jungles where they couldn't exist on an earth-type planet. We've all seen the map of Robert E, Howard's Hyborian age superimposed on a map of Europe. In the past I've used the basic geography of the United Kingdom and of the East Coast of North America. My coastlines and such don't mimic the real thing, but the basic climates, topographical features, etc all have a logical order.
Same thing goes for cities. Do a little historical reading and learn why Babylon, Rome, or London were built where they were. Things like water supply, available farmland, etc, often slip right past in the joy of creating fantastic civilizations. And yes, I know Lin didn't always follow his own rule, but it's still a useful one. | | Back to Top | | |
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tchernabyelo
Acolyte
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 409
| Posted 9/11/2007 6:00 AM (GMT -4) | | My world-building tends to borrow a lot from Earth history and culture, because it's a point of familiarity for people (with varying levels of depth). I think it's important to get a real flavour; if I am to immerse myself in a fantasy world, it has to live and breathe, and be full of detail (though that detail should not get in the way of story). I am (as I think many editors are) weary of generic faux-medieval settings, in particular those crafted by people whose only "knowledge" of the medieval era comes from role-playing games or other stories. One thing that always gets me is that everyone's happy to have orders of chivalry, and ranks of nobility, but there never seems to be an economic aspect to these generic worlds. There's no real understanding of trade, and wealth only exists in a meaningful way because of trade. Mercantile adventurism is, for me, far more of an interesting spur to plots than squabbles over which prince gets a throne, or a mismatched band of heroes gathering together against a motiveless dark lord who is evil because the plot requires it.
Sorry, going off at a tangent.
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #19
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"When Winter Came" - ASIM (forthcoming)
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction (forthcoming) | | Back to Top | | |
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 574
| Posted 9/11/2007 10:46 AM (GMT -4) | | | Howard, who wrote the story The Nursemaid's Suitor in BG 9? That paid attention to the small--the nursery rhyme about the mammoth--and the large (the social structure of the invading force). That to me is a success. | | Back to Top | | |
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 574
| Posted 9/11/2007 2:23 PM (GMT -4) | | I'm not sure I get your metaphor, Rob, but I sure do want to come to your house for dinner. 
And actually, something that informs my developing of places is having played the Civilization games. I have to confess well-done RPG supplements, like Hârn or the conversion of Lankhmar. | | Back to Top | | |
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 9/12/2007 4:59 PM (GMT -4) | | I think a writer should know far more about the world than he or she reveals to the reader, although I think plot should come first. Sometimes, though, if you develop a neat place or scene, it inspires plot.
I enjoy stories that take me to new and interesting places. I'm going to try and touch on that in a blog post soon, if I can steal the time. I think I've said things like it before, though. A writer isn't constrained like a film maker, who must always worry about special effects budget. A writer should take us to new and exciting places and introduce us to new and interesting characters -- at least a writer drafting the kinds of fiction that interests me.
Rob, you asked if I meant novel or short story, and I suppose I was speaking broadly of both. I was thinking of Conan's world, and Lankhmar just as much as I was thinking of Jack Vance or my own settings or, indeed, the same tavern that seems to crop up in a tenth the submissions that cross the editorial desk.
Howard
Managing Editor Black Gate | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 9/12/2007 8:03 PM (GMT -4) | | | It is essential that the writer know more about the world written in than the reader directly sees. An example for me comes from my Servant of the Manthycore stories--- sorry for the blatant plug, but they are much on my mind lately!--- when the Servant's adopted daughter realizes that she is filthy after a trip through the desert. Did they have soap in Mesopotamia in 1560 BC? What form did it take? Was it a trade item, a luxury or common and therefore homemade? How was it made, and from what? Did it stink of tallow, like some primitive soaps do, or was it fragranced?
Turns out it was a common substance, was sometimes a trade commodity, was made with olive oil, ash and cassia oil. It was more like liquid handsoap, and sometimes was kept in small clay cylinder-pots. Okay, but cassia oil seems familiar, what is that? A cousin of cinnamon, stronger smelling and tasting. Oh wait! They also used cassia oil as a flavoring for beer, as we use hops today. Cool! You could come home from the tavern, and if your wife smelled beer on your breath, you could just tell her you stopped by the public bath, and accidently swallowed some soap!
None of this made it into the story. She was bathed, and when she was done she smelled nice. No need to mention heating water, because unlike tallow-based soaps, oil-based work fine in cold water.
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
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Nathaniel Morgan
Neophyte
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 9/12/2007 11:57 PM (GMT -4) | |
MichaelEhart said...
It is essential that the writer know more about the world written in than the reader directly sees. An example for me comes from my Servant of the Manthycore stories--- sorry for the blatant plug, but they are much on my mind lately!--- when the Servant's adopted daughter realizes that she is filthy after a trip through the desert. Did they have soap in Mesopotamia in 1560 BC? What form did it take? Was it a trade item, a luxury or common and therefore homemade? How was it made, and from what? Did it stink of tallow, like some primitive soaps do, or was it fragranced?
Turns out it was a common substance, was sometimes a trade commodity, was made with olive oil, ash and cassia oil. It was more like liquid handsoap, and sometimes was kept in small clay cylinder-pots. Okay, but cassia oil seems familiar, what is that? A cousin of cinnamon, stronger smelling and tasting. Oh wait! They also used cassia oil as a flavoring for beer, as we use hops today. Cool! You could come home from the tavern, and if your wife smelled beer on your breath, you could just tell her you stopped by the public bath, and accidently swallowed some soap!
None of this made it into the story. She was bathed, and when she was done she smelled nice. No need to mention heating water, because unlike tallow-based soaps, oil-based work fine in cold water.
Michael,
I agree within the context of the example you've given. I'm doing similiar things with a current project (such as researching the sadlery and tack used by certain Pre-Roman peoples.)
But both of these examples fall more within the realm of research. The biggest difference being both of our research/world building serves and is determined by the tale we're telling.
Did that make sense? Must be time for bed. | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 9/13/2007 6:17 PM (GMT -4) | | One of the best things to happen to my writing was working for a few years as a reporter--- good enough becomes the standard, because there is simply no time for perfect. This freed me from the impossible perfect and let me concentrate on making sure the story was told, not perfectly, but well, in the fashion I wished it.
In fiction, as in so many things, the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
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