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Bill Ward
Biblioholic



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   Posted 11/28/2007 12:28 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HP, you're actually talking about something slightly different there, ie. targeting the retailers specifically monitored by the bestseller people to skew the lists to give an inaccurate picture of overall sales*. That hasn't been brought up before, and I agree that is 'skeevy' because it works directly against the interest of the list itself; ie. it was setup to give an objective estimate of sales, so finding out the secret and exploiting it against the wishes of its proprietors and users is unethical, obviously.

These other examples, such as viral marketing, distributing book copies, chasing down blurbs, etc. all strike me as perfectly in accordance with fair play. We're moving past Sawyer and his 300 copies as being pertinent to this discussion, but I still don't see how he can be an 'unctuous creep,' or unethical, or lend his name to an adjective modifying 'distastefulness' when nothing that he has done that I'm aware of is in the least bit unethical. HP, you're talking about the big guys manipulating sales by targeting the supposedly confidential list of monitored retailers for bestsellers but your also lumping in a guy that made smart marketing moves when he was just starting out in the same category.

And nowhere did I suggest that 'gaming the system' was justifiable just because it was possible.

*to be perfectly clear, what you are referring to is someone buying, say, 10,000 books from bestseller monitored retailers so that it skews the data out the other end to make it look like 100,000 copies were sold overall. Obviously unethical. What I was saying, in the hypothetical, is that there is nothing unethical about an author just buying those 100,000 copies, or a million copies if he could, as it is not an act of deception nor in conflict with the function of any reporting institution (they report copies sold, not satisfied customers). Pathetic, yes; unethical, no.


billwardwriter.com

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Jordan Lapp
ppaL nadroJ



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   Posted 11/28/2007 3:34 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well said as usual, Bill.


Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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H.P. Lovesauce
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   Posted 11/28/2007 10:47 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You make a good and definitive distinction, Bill.

Obviously my personal opinion of Sawyer and what he did 18 years ago is just that. I will say I wasn't alone in Canadian SF letters in finding it distasteful (if brilliant).

What this disagreement underscores is the necessity for writers to undergo a mind-shift concerning their role in the publication process.

We've all had to adjust our thinking concerning writing, submitting, being edited, and so forth. Many times the realities of the publishing world seem another hoop to jump through. The matter of self-promotion will, for many, look like a dismayingly high hoop that has also been set aflame. I can understand people just posting their stuff online and leaving it at that.

Writers by necessity must help promote any work of theirs that is being published. It'd be best if publisher and writer could find someone whose "bliss" is promotion; anyone have ideas of how to do that, and compensate them given a "small potatoes" budget?
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Dungeoneer
Bearer of No Clever Titles

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   Posted 11/28/2007 1:11 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm sorry, guys, but the key word here is "buying", isn't it?  If an author BUYS copies of his/her own book, he/she is STILL BUYING them.  Therefore, the demographic would still be correct.  Right?
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 11/28/2007 1:28 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dungeoneer said...
I'm sorry, guys, but the key word here is "buying", isn't it? If an author BUYS copies of his/her own book, he/she is STILL BUYING them. Therefore, the demographic would still be correct. Right?


no. because the demographic is supposed to show individual sales and is used to determine how many individual people have bought the book, not just how many copies of it have sold.
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 11/28/2007 1:35 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
H.P. Lovesauce said...

What this disagreement underscores is the necessity for writers to undergo a mind-shift concerning their role in the publication process.


That's a very well said comment.

This boggles me. Every sort of artist, except writers, do the publicity thing. They hold gallery showings, and do whatever else it takes to market themselves. Every other cottage industry knows that they have to market. Writer's USED to know they had to get their work out into the hands of the public, on their own.

I think the problem starts way back in time when some body started telling authors 'hey, let me publish that and i'll do all the marketing for you'. Some where it became 'required' that a writer did nothing but write.

Well, no, not 'writer'. A 'writer' can be anyone that writers and you don't find freelance journalists sitting around whining because someone isn't finding a newspaper that'll publish their story. Storytellers then.

I don't know many playwrites that sit around whining because someone won't produce their play. Just a certain group of storytellers that want to do nothing but sit at their desk and write down stories, then have everyone else do the rest of their work for them.

Such is life.
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darkbow
Rabbit lord



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   Posted 11/28/2007 4:35 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think part of the problem is there's an old ... I don't know, tradition? mindset? perception? ... where writers just wrote their work and sent it out, collected their checks and that was it. I'm talking 50 years ago and better. I'm not saying this "tradition" was real. I don't know. Wasn't around back then. But I have a hard time seeing guys like Faulkner, Hemingway, even Tolkein, driving from bookstore to bookstore to sign a handful of novels, then heading over to the local convention, even before such authors became known figures.

My guess would be writers back then had other venues, magazines and newspapers and other types of public events, to spread the word.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com

"Hot Off the Press" available in Ray Gun Revival #25.

"Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" upcoming in the Flashing Swords anthology, "The Return of the Sword: A New Age of Heroic Adventure."

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 11/28/2007 6:44 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
darkbow said...
I think part of the problem is there's an old ... I don't know, tradition? mindset? perception? ... where writers just wrote their work and sent it out, collected their checks and that was it.


It was expensive to publish stuff then. It was expensive to make a movie or a TV show or produce radio too. People went that route because most peopel couldn't afford the resources.

That has changed. The mindset in all the other media industries have changed. Go look at Youtube.

The writing industry is changing too. The writer's need to catch up with that change.
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Angeline Hawkes
I am Ripper…Tearer…Slasher…Gouger.



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   Posted 11/30/2007 12:01 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There are all sorts of ways to promote one's work. Postcards, giveaways, contests, REVIEWS, blogs, myspace, journals, websites, message boards, mailers, yahoo groups, business cards, book boards, etc etc.

Vistaprint.com has cool, nicely done products for very little money. You can upload your own book cover image onto a biz card and have website info. These are great to pass out everywhere. I have what we refer to as a "Fan Boy Card", with a b/w sexy photo and info/websites on the back. These FLY off my table and after a convention my website goes nuts with hits.

You can use the postcards to load an image on the front, fade it on the back and feature blurbs from your covers or reviews. These are cool. Christopher Fulbright [hubby] and I have these w/b /w photo of us on the front and blurbs on the back. We sign a lot of these at conventions.

The postcards are also good to stick in an anthology when you're signing the story as a bookmark so the buyer/reader can find your story fast after buying/signing.

Pencils, pens, bookmarks, notepads, magnets can all be had inexpensively.

We attend 2 Dallas/Ft Worth based conventions a year, Howard Days in June, and a Homecoming event at my alma mater annually. Texas Frightmare Weekend has invited us for 2008. Establishing a fan/reader base/audience is essential to moving books.

I do book signings, readings, and high school writing contest judging to promote. There are SO many ways an author can promote and market their work.

Remember, just like ANY other product, your work must be branded and marketed to buyers. There are many ways to make your name familiar and not all of them require a lot of money.

I don't advocate the large purchase of one's books unless you attend a LOT of events and have the potential to move them. Writing is just like any other business and the bottom line is making money. I stock about 10 books a year, more if I sell out before the next event. On my average table, I usually have apprx 15-20 DIFFERENT books/anthologies/novellas/collections/chapbooks...so you can see that for me to stock large quantities of any book would be insane. Any book that is 2 years or older gets marked down or put in what we call a BOOK BUNDLE, and sold for a bargain price. No one wants to see the same old stuff on your table all of the time.


www.angelinehawkes.com
ww.fulbrightandhawkes.com

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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



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   Posted 11/30/2007 12:05 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There has been quite a bit of beneficial information mentioned in this thread - great ideas from all!


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 11/30/2007 6:40 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Angeline Hawkes said...

Vistaprint.com has cool, nicely done products for very little money.


And their stuff is high quality, too. I've been taking advantage of their 1 free tee-shirt ads, and have gotten several tee-shirts with my book cover on the front for the price of shipping. Excellent quality in both the shirt and the printing on it.
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von Darkmoor
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   Posted 11/30/2007 10:43 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
and I've used them for business cards for several organizations and personal use for years


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard

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Laura Stamps
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   Posted 12/3/2007 11:43 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Wow, great thread, Ed.  Thanks for starting it!  yeah

Hmm, where to start?  I have been a fulltime writer for almost 20 years now.  I started in this business by self-publishing, which is not unusual for a small press poet.  What is unusual is I majored in art in college and spent 10 years building a business as a painter selling my original paintings, notecards, postcards, posters, and prints of my art before I switched careers and became a writer.  That trained me in a mindset very different from most small press writers.  I saw my career as a business, and you learn really fast if you are going to survive fulltime as an artist that you must HUSTLE!  The galleries won't do it for you.  A few will, most won't.

I also think self-publishing is a fabulous way for a writer to start out.  So many advantages to that.  Mainly, it gives you a chance to build a market and make yourself know to readers and reviewers/editors.  That is important whether you plan to go with an agent and publisher later on.  Why?  Because they all want to know what is your marketing platform, who is your market, how big is it, etc.  If you don't know this stuff they probably won't be interested in you.

Up until 2005 the best way to sell books was through magazine ads, direct mail, and rented mailing lists.  I sold tons of books this way, staggering amounts every year, really, and built a customer list of 12,000 people that grew daily.  But in 2005 these strategies stopped working.  Why?  The internet.  So the last few years I have done tons of testing to find out how to make money selling books through the "new marketing" (which is what I call it). 

These days most of my income comes from royalties and sales from the 4 publishers (3 small press book publishers and 1 major art print publisher) who publish my books and poetry art prints.  Here's what I have learned.  Use direct mail sparingly and make sure what you are doing works, because postage is crazy expensive now and really cuts into your profits.  Retail buyers don't buy books cold now from an ad or a review.  They buy because one of their friends told them about the book and raved about it.  That is a big change from a few years ago.  That means building a presence in the blogging world, forums, Yahoo groups, and on social networking sites are the most important way an author can build an audience now and sell lots of books.  I have tested all kinds of web marketing the last year or so, mainly the kinds of tactics that would make me the most profit with the least amount spent.  Because profit is where you make your money (net sales) not gross sales.

What does my day look like?  I get online at 6:00am every day and market until about 2:30pm.  Then I write, working on my current novel until 5:00pm.  I work fewer hours on Saturday and Sunday online, but I market online 7 days a week.  Yes, I do have a life...husband, house to clean, many many cats to care for.  I just schedule everything.  I once read where a writer said if you spend a lot of time marketing, your writing will suffer.  I don't agree with that.  I have found the time I spend marketing and networking with my readers definitely improves the quality of my writing, because I know exactly what they want from a novel and I can give it to them.  I also read novels in my genre (urban fantasy) every night after dinner.  I want to know what is being published in my market.  But I also must be able to talk with my readers about the books they love by other authors.  It all goes hand in hand now with the new marketing.  These people buy from me because they feel like I am their friend, not just some author "pimping" (I actually saw this term on one of the social networking sites *eek!*) her books.  

I'm always testing, so (as my friends in the business know *grin*) the minute I test something that works really well I will spread the word!  

Happy bookselling! 


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore
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Dragon Angel
Lord Dragon



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   Posted 12/3/2007 12:17 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wow, Laura, Wow.


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.

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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



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   Posted 12/3/2007 12:26 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am equally impressed, Laura. Thank you for 'spreading the word,' it is most definitely appreciated.


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard

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Laura Stamps
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   Posted 12/3/2007 2:30 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Thanks, Dragon Angel and Jason!!

Postcards have been mentioned in this thread, and I forgot to mention them in my other post.  It has been my experience, when it comes to book marketing, that good sales copy will sell many more books than a color photo of the cover.  A great cover grabs people in a bookstore or in a magazine ad, but when it comes to postcards the copy is what sells product.  Because of that I have never used color postcards to sell my books.  And most of my books have been sold through postcard mailings to my customer list and to rented mailing lists.

One of the best marketing investments a writer can make is in a laser printer for your computer that can do duplex printing, meaning it can print on both sides.  I design my postcards on Word, 4-up (4 to a page), run them through my computer printer on 67 pound cover stock, and trim them with a paper trimmer (also a great investment).  They just contain the ordering info for the novel, my contact info, and a blurb about the book.  Before 2005 I would drop several hundred postcards every week to my lists, and sold a lot of books that way.  Now with the new marketing I just mail postcards to my customer list twice a year.  I have sold as many as 3 different books on one postcard, and that worked well in the past and increased the $ amount of each order.  Something you can test with your own books.

I also design a 3-fold brochure flyer on Word and run them through my computer printer on color paper, printed on both sides.  This flyer contains ordering info for the novel, my contact info, blurbs from reviewers, a synopsis of the novel, and the first chapter of the novel.  I always carry a bunch of these novel flyers in my purse and hand them out all the time.  They sell a lot of books for me.  But I have also hired a new book marketing company now to distribute flyers for me.  I mentioned this company elsewhere in this forum...Bohemian Book Marketing (http://www.BohemianBookMarketing.blogspot.com).  Earlier this year I had hired a classified ad blaster for $35/month to place my book ads on 1000+ websites around the web every day.  That worked well for my SEO, but after 7 months of testing this strategy, I found book sales were minimal.  BBM distributes 100 flyers for me every month to bookstores and retail buyers in eastern Canada for $25/month.  I print the flyers on my computer and mail them to her.  The cost is almost the same as the ad blaster, but I started seeing sales the first month with BBM, so I am sticking with this strategy for now (grin). 

It goes without saying a duplex printer will also allow you to publish books of all sizes, from stapled chaps to coil-bound books.  In that case you would just need the appropriate bindery equipment, which I have and bought very inexpensvely at an office supply chain like Staples. 


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore
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Dragon Angel
Lord Dragon



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   Posted 12/3/2007 2:39 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Do you create your own poetry books, then?


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.

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Laura Stamps
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   Posted 12/3/2007 2:54 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

In the beginning I published all my poetry books and novels.  Now all my novels and most of my poetry books are published by other small press publishers, and I only publish my Collected Poems (Cats and Chrysanthemums) through my Kittyfeather Press company, which is a large book of over 200 pages.  That one I run out on my duplex printer, trim to book size, and coil bind.  But in the past I have also published smaller stapled poetry chaps and small novellas on my printer. 

BTW, my computer printer is a HP Laser Jet 1320.  Got it at Staples and LOVE it!  :-)

However, I should mention I also buy all of my books from those publishers and sell them through my Kittyfeather Press catalog.  Some of my customers prefer to buy my books this way, so their copies will be personalized by me.  I don't encourage this, because at this point in my career I like to send all my buyers to Amazon, B&N.com, and their local bookstores.  But also selling the books through my catalog gives my customers more options and gives me yet another source of income.


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 12/4/2007 12:51 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laura, you ever thought of starting a marketing service?


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print

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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 12/4/2007 1:07 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laura Stamps said...

...What does my day look like?  I get online at 6:00am every day and market until about 2:30pm.  Then I write, working on my current novel until 5:00pm.  I work fewer hours on Saturday and Sunday online, but I market online 7 days a week.  Yes, I do have a life...husband, house to clean, many many cats to care for.  I just schedule everything.  I once read where a writer said if you spend a lot of time marketing, your writing will suffer.  I don't agree with that.  I have found the time I spend marketing and networking with my readers definitely improves the quality of my writing, because I know exactly what they want from a novel and I can give it to them.  I also read novels in my genre (urban fantasy) every night after dinner.  I want to know what is being published in my market.  But I also must be able to talk with my readers about the books they love by other authors.  It all goes hand in hand now with the new marketing.  These people buy from me because they feel like I am their friend, not just some author "pimping" (I actually saw this term on one of the social networking sites *eek!*) her books...  

Just with my bit of poetry out there so far, I find that I spend more time with submitting and self-promoting on-line than I do actually composing and writing.  I've slowly started to make contacts with editors and other writers, even if it's just on forums like this.  I feel it's an important part of the overall picture.
 
My involvement on forums certainly inspired me to write a non-fiction article for Doorways magazine.  The non-fiction editor of Doorways posted her call for submissions on the Whispers of Wickedness forum, so I was inspired to answer the call.  I wouldn't have been inspired if I hadn't seen the forum posting about non-fiction articles.
 
My involvement in forums has also led to interest in my artwork.  I ran across Flashing Swords as a potential market through this very forum, and now I'm busy working on art for that publication.  This would have never taken place if I hadn't participated on the SFReaders forum, and posted about some of my recent illustration publications.
 
I post brags and self-promotions where I can, but I also try to become a part of the forum communities.  I just have to be careful not to butt heads with too many authors!  I have a tendency of speaking my mind, even if it's contrary to what many others think.
 
One thing that has helped me tremendously, at least in terms of my art, is my web site.  I've had a few editors who accepted my poetry peruse my site, and then suggest that I also submit art.  Perhaps I could have just submitted illustrations to begin with, but the web site definitely garnered some keen interest.  It led directly to my illustration in the current issue of Champagne Shivers, and more indirectly to the one in Aoife's Kiss.
 
The hard part is to find the time between home schooling my daughter, writing, and composing illustrations.  I try to squeeze in time on the forums in-between everything else.  However, I try to find the time because I feel it is an important part of developing my career.
 
Maybe I'll never turn this into a "real" career, but at least I will work as hard as I can in making something out of my writing and art.        



"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
 
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Dragon Angel
Lord Dragon



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   Posted 12/4/2007 1:46 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nice artwork, btw. Reminds me of old tapestries for some reason.


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.

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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



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   Posted 12/4/2007 2:04 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nice post as well, RHFay. Continued good luck to you!


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
Anthology Editor Flashing Swords
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard

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Laura Stamps
Neophyte



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   Posted 12/4/2007 8:41 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...
Laura, you ever thought of starting a marketing service?

Actually, I used to do that for many years, but it grew to the point where it was taking up as much time as a fulltime job, and I just can't work two fulltime jobs (which means I had no life...LOL).  So in 2003 I told all my clients I was "retiring" from marketing consulting. 
 
And I've stuck to it, only taking a few editing jobs up until 2005 to help out authors who pleaded with me to the point where I couldn't resist.  But I don't do editing anymore either, because I really only have the time to work fulltime with my own writing career and business.  Now I'm happy to just pass tips along to my writer friends when I come across something that works for me.
 
But thanks for asking!  :-)


Laura Stamps
Magickal Urban Fantasy Novelist
The Witches of Dixie: Book One of the Witchery Series
(ISBN: 978-0-9798413-0-9, 2007, Trytium Publishing, 245 pages)
Available at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local bookstore