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| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Editor's Roundtable > Writers Must Promote Their Work--MUST! | Forum Quick Jump
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MichaelEhart
Sage
      
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 11/22/2007 2:47 PM (GMT -4) |   | http://www.scificonventions.com/
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 11/22/2007 3:59 PM (GMT -4) | | http://www.sfnorthwest.org/
sorry, here is the resource for all things NW con--- I was going to add it too, but must have gotten sidetracked.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 11/22/2007 4:09 PM (GMT -4) | | March has NorWesCon, which as you know is everything a con should be.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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Firlefanz
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1143
| Posted 11/22/2007 4:13 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 574
| Posted 11/26/2007 1:24 PM (GMT -4) | | Many writers, if not most, are not comfortable with socializing at all, let alone networking and self-promotion. Aside from a certain amount of online activity, many of them are going to balk at this sort of thing at a deep psychological level. Once writers understand intellectually the need for self promotion, perhaps they'd be more open to a list of tasks. If this were part of a publishing contract from the very beginning, it would be very useful, yes?
The thing is, not all good writers are good self-promoters; the irony is that success comes more often to those of whom the converse is true. Robert J. Sawyer is, to hastily grab a couple of words from the H.P. Lexicon, an "unctuous creep". Part of the self-promotion he did was buying up the vast majority of in-print copies of his first novel, which furthered his self-promotion ends, but also artificially inflated his sales figures. This kind of diddling is not illegal, but ethically it's questionable at best.
I'm not convinced it was just a blind review galley that got Orson Scott Card on his side, but it's undeniable having a prominent author as an intellectual sugar daddy helps tons. You end up glowing from some of the shine reflected off their name.
Publishers would need to take on yet more heavy lifting to make successful books: they'd have to evaluate a writer's willingness and ability to self-promote, and develop and enforce a self-promotion scheme for the writer to follow, or come up with some innovative solution that obviates the first two without costing much. The latter sounds impossible, the former smacks of Sawyerian distastefulness because it throws up more walls in the "getting published" labyrinth emerging writers face.
Let's say I had two authors' manuscripts in front of me: the collected "character" stories of James Ng, and a collection of assorted stuff by Rhonda Westriver. On the one hand, Ng's Warlock the Baker stories kick ass and I'm excited about them, but Ng is a bit of a recluse. On the other hand, Westriver's stuff doesn't excite me, but she's a regular con attendee and is personable, female, and hot. This seems a difficult dilemma for a small publisher. | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 11/26/2007 3:34 PM (GMT -4) | | I am so lucky in that I have the skills and experience to self-promote. For many it is nearly impossible. I got mine from working in politics, and the fearlessness that can only be developed by spending years on the road as a stand-up comedian. Though I am not naturally a sociable person (weirdly, most comics are just as uncomfortable on a one-to-one basis as many writers) I am able seem more charming than I actually am by the simple expediant of asking people to tell me about themselves, a trick I learned as a reporter. Funny thing, I am most often fascinated by other people's stories of themselves, and it saves me having to think up stuff to say.
Not everyone can do this. Self-promotion skills can be learned though, and practice can make it far less uncomfortable. But there is no way that publishers should require this, as some folks just can't, and many writers are doing what they do because they are uncomfortable people already.
But if you can, self-promote. Remember, no matter how good your stuff is, if nobody knows about it, nobody will read it.
HP Lovesauce said...
it's undeniable having a prominent author as an intellectual sugar daddy helps tons. You end up glowing from some of the shine reflected off their name.
Boy Howdy, I am here to testify to that. Is it fair? Maybe not. But if your stuff actually sucks, then the endorsement of a big name won't help all that much anyway. So in the end, Westriver, Sawyer and Ng all have the first responsibility to write the story, and then work as best as they are able to see that it gets read.
Buy my book! The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1550
| Posted 11/26/2007 4:26 PM (GMT -4) | |
MichaelEhart said...
...But if you can, self-promote. Remember, no matter how good your stuff is, if nobody knows about it, nobody will read it.
Michael, that line sums it all up perfectly. The public must be aware of your work. Simply being published is not enough.
It's kind of like the old tree in a forest question - if a tree falls in a forest with no one to hear it, does it make a sound? If a book, story, or poem is published, but no one hears about it, will it be read?
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
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Bill Ward
Biblioholic
Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1632
| Posted 11/27/2007 12:09 AM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 574
| Posted 11/27/2007 12:27 PM (GMT -4) | | CW's got the truth of it. The thing is, no one has heretofore declared what the rules are. Nothing's written down, nothing's legislated.
Bill, somebody suffers from artificially inflated sales, if only a single duped consumer. | | Back to Top | | |
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 574
| Posted 11/27/2007 3:11 PM (GMT -4) | | I was trying to move beyond Sawyer and speak in generalities at this point. (His purchase, according to his blog, was 300 copies, in this case too small to skew even Canadian sales lists.)
Let's look at the Hugos, the fan-voted awards, you mentioned. You need at least a supporting membership to the host con to vote, and likely something akin to that to nominate a work. What if you do a mailing to a bunch of fans and pay their membership (or whatever) fees so they could participate in the nominations? "Heck," you say, "if I'm nominated, I'll offer everyone on this list a copy of my next novel at half cover price!" Ditto the fans you get to join the convention on your dime. Once you're nominated, you could even spring for day passes for a bunch of homeless people near the con site, explain to them who you are and what the Hugos are, and you'd love to have their input as voters, and promise them a hot meal after doing the hard work of participating in unbiased, democratic voting.
What if you're an author without a big-name patron? What if you paid Big Author X to write a positive blurb or magazine review for you, or to make a high-profile con appearance with you? Or pay an actor like Mark Hamill to make such an appearance and declare himself a fan?
How about other reviews? Would you pay review authors a token sum just to review a book? Pay to be part of a prominent podcast? Or maybe pay for a fake "viral" campaign in which people make forum posts or blog entries for money?
Maybe you're no good at networking. Why not hire a good-looking actor to press the flesh for you and liquor up prospective agents and publishers?
Is there anything in these scenarios that gets anyone's ethical spider-sense tingling? | | Back to Top | | |
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Jordan Lapp
ppaL nadroJ
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 2530
| Posted 11/27/2007 3:39 PM (GMT -4) | |
The Hugo Awards Site said...
What if I still want to promote my book/film/self for a Hugo?
Our advice: Don’t. Actively campaigning for a Hugo Award is widely frowned upon by regular Hugo voters and has been known to backfire. Take a look at the hugo site. I think it's pretty hard to gimp. And apparently there are 7000 members who can vote. You'd need a lot of homeless people to tip the vote in your favour. As for mailing them all copies, their addresses are not available (again according to the Hugo Site.
As for actors to press the flesh... ever heard of ghostwriting? I understand even Schwartznegger has written a book.
There are several locations on the net where you can buy a review, and even get that review added to amazon. Are they reviewers that matter? Not really, but you can't buy the other kind.
As for paying a big name author, well, if they are a big name they probably don't need your money or want to sully their reputation, but if the book is any good they might add their name to your book as co-author a la James Patterson.
It turns out that most of your examples are already being practiced and not too many people have a problem with those practices (or at least there's been no public uproar). I think that the rule in writing is the same as the rule in jujitsu: "Whatever works."
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 574
| Posted 11/27/2007 4:15 PM (GMT -4) | | | My apologies to EdK for the threadjacking. I think we agree that writers must promote their work--must! | | Back to Top | | |
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Bill Ward
Biblioholic
Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1632
| Posted 11/27/2007 4:30 PM (GMT -4) | | Buying votes and good reviews is unethical, sure, but buying up your own book? Come on. And would these 'duped' customers be the same people duped by television commercials and highway billboards?
The odds are so stacked against the starting writer its not like he's entering some level playing field where he can just sit back and let all his customers evaluate his work honestly; are you really saying people are 'hurt' when they are persuaded to buy one book over another? Even assuming the sale of one book is made instead of another, and not instead of a big mac and large fry or the director's cut of thelma and louise.
As far as rules go as long as a product isn't claimed to be something it isn't, and as long as a service isn't misrepresented (such as a reviewer compromising his objectivity) then where's the harm? Until advertisers figure out a way to steal money out of your wallet while you sleep its just a matter of disseminating persuasive and positive information, and I think any author with the chutzpah and hustle to play the system like Sawyer did is to be admired. Or am I supposed to feel sorry for all those authors that didn't bother with self promotion?
Sorry HP, this isn't a screed directed solely at you, but you presented a point-of-view that I really don't grasp, and I'm certainly not a proponent of a 'law of the jungle' in the social contract, but I really don't see how much of this -- everything less than the out-and-out bribery -- is a question of ethics.
(I don't think you are threadjacking at all HP, I think you raise a point that is integral to the whole discussion)
billwardwriter.com | | Back to Top | | |
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 574
| Posted 11/27/2007 8:29 PM (GMT -4) | |
This one dude said...USA Today and The Wall Street Journal, two competing national newspapers, name the booksellers they survey. The Times refuses to do that for fear that someone will try to game the system — for example, making strategic bulk buys to inflate sales numbers. When bulk purchases are reported, The Times puts the symbol of a dagger beside the book’s title to alert readers....
Why the attempts at manipulation? ....if a first-time author makes the list, the book will sell 57 percent more copies than it would have otherwise.
Artificially manipulating sales lists can help provide a " cumulative advantage"; just as the rich get richer, the already-popular (or those perceived to be popular) get more popular.
People aren't so much "duped" by billboards, because they know it's paid advertising. (But I'm not going to that stupid clown college!") There isn't the level of trust they might put into a bestseller list.
Just because a system can be gamed, doesn't mean it should. I guess the book publishing industry is still pretty small-time, and chutzpah or moxie or cojones can get you further than they could in, say, Vegas or Wall Street. If one ever gets successful, only a minority of nobodies like me on the Internet will decry an author as skeevy, even if they've gone on record as approving of this sort of thing. Higher book sales, popularity, and praise will be the end result, rather than an SEC investigation or a shallow grave in the desert. | | Back to Top | | |
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4588
| Posted 11/27/2007 9:27 PM (GMT -4) | | My personal take on this entire thing is:
Is dishonesty involved? Or not?
Is it wrong to hire and actor to represent your product? No
is it wrong for that actor to say he/she likes it? Federal law says that if a person endorses a product commerically, and says that they use it, then they HAVE to use it. So federal law states that if the actor says he/she is a fan, they better be. If they break the law and say they like it, when they don't, that's wrong. If they say they like it and they do, that's not wrong.
Is it wrong to go out, hire homeless people to go in and vote for something? Not if you don't tell them what to vote for.
If you slyly, using dishonest methods, stack the ballot box in your favor, however, that's wrong
Everyone take a step back, and a deep breath.
Jordan, drop the specifics about one author and think in generalities here, please.
Is buying copies of your book to make it look like you've got more sales than you do an act of dishonesty, or not. Regardless of the numbers of books you buy or who you are. Generalities, please.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
Managing Editor of Flashing Swords
Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print | | Back to Top | | |
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darkbow
Rabbit lord
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1575
| Posted 11/27/2007 9:52 PM (GMT -4) | |
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