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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/7/2008 2:39 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
the CMoS and I are at odds.

They declare that the em-dash is to be without spaces before and after. Like this:

word---word

I, on the other hand, want those spaces. So that lines break correctly when wrapping on the printed page (plus I can't stand the way it looks without the spaces). I get rather rabid about it, too.

So, what about the rest of you? What sort of picky editing/typesetting quirks do you have that fly right in the face of the venerable CMoS?
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Bill Ward
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   Posted 2/7/2008 3:30 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Old Kate Turabian and I have always seen eye to eye.

I am rather vehement (actually, borderline psychotically obsessive) about using the serial comma, ie basic American comma usage vs British/Journalistic comma usage, as seen here:

I have a pig, a sheep, and a walrus.

Leaving out that last comma might work for bare bones (ie journalistic) writing, but when it comes to fiction you absolutely need it when you start building more complicated clauses around lists and the like. Plus, it is much closer to the actual rhythm of speech and improves clarity. When I'm editing the work of poor, benighted practitioners of non-serial comma usage (such as many [but not all!] writers from the UK) I let it slide--but I do pity them. Fiction should not be written like it's a Western Union telegram, use punctuation when you need it! If anyone asked me to omit serial commas from my own work I'd refuse...and probably attack them if they were within charging distance.

wiki article on serial commas


Also, CW, the lines do wrap correctly on a printed page with no-spaced em-dashes, even with justified text, it's when you don't convert the double dash to an em-dash that you get one dash on one line and one on the other. No spaces and autoformatting to a proper, robust em-dash create a situation with the first word and whole dash on one line, then the next word on the next. It's the leaving in of the double-dash that's the problem in my experience.


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Firlefanz
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   Posted 2/7/2008 4:31 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The "English" m-dash always looks funny to me. In German orthography, there are always spaces around dashes. But then, we also never use double spaces in any way. I hate reformatting text to have those double spaces after each sentence, as there is no way I can put them in when I'm typing. Still, I do it, because I want my stories to be accepted, same as I use Courier New 12 pt, when editors prefer it.

Hehehe. Sometimes, it's the details that throw off bilinguals. rofl


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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/7/2008 12:03 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm with Bill on the comma issue. Can't say it more eloquently than he did, so I'll just leave it at that.


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Bill Ward
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   Posted 2/7/2008 2:14 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Firlefanz said...
But then, we also never use double spaces in any way. I hate reformatting text to have those double spaces after each sentence, as there is no way I can put them in when I'm typing. Still, I do it, because I want my stories to be accepted, same as I use Courier New 12 pt, when editors prefer it.


I hope you don't double space after periods for every manuscript? A lot of editors now-a-days don't want that, and I wouldn't consider it part of standard format anymore, personally. I'd only do it if an editor specified that's what they wanted.

I just did some proofreading lately where I was takign all those double spaces out. A clever way to take them out was discovered by an alchemical experiment conducted by our very own von Darkmoor...in MS Word pull up the ctrl-f search menu, go to replace, and just put two spaces in the 'find' part, and one in the 'replace' part. To do the other I'd try find 'period space' and replace with 'period space space.'


Jordan, glad you're a serial comma man. Would you say that's less observed in Canadian writing than in American?


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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/7/2008 2:23 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Re: Commas. My g/f goes the other way, so I wouldn't apply it to Canada in general.

The two spaces after the period is generally out, at least in the submission requirements I've seen. I've gotten in the habit of using one, for that reason.


Jordan Lapp
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Bill Ward
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   Posted 2/7/2008 2:42 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A lot of the old typographical junk is going by the way side, as that stuff exists from the days when someone would have to retype a hard copy. Unfortunately, underlining and the like still lingers, and there's just enough people deviateing from 'standard' now-a-days to make things actually more confusing.

So Jordan, I see it will be a mixed marriage, good luck with that ;)


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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/7/2008 2:45 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, people at the grammar parties we attend give us strange looks, but our love will keep us together ;)


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MichaelEhart
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   Posted 2/8/2008 12:06 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am bridging the typewriter to computer ages. My first many sales were written on a typewriter, and editors of those benighted days wanted the extra space after the period. I dropped the old Royal manual for a word processor on my first computer in 1980, and dropped the extra space around the same time.
I try to avoid the em-dash entirely in my fiction. I use it--- alot--- in my correspondence.


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Bill Ward
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   Posted 2/8/2008 12:16 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've tried to cut out semi-colons in favor of em-dashes. I used to be a semi-colon abuser.


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Firlefanz
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   Posted 2/8/2008 5:52 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Are you saying that the demise of the double space is around the corner? Yay!

rofl

Bill, yes, I use search and replace for adding those spaces - which is tricky as one has to include question marks, exclamation marks and quotes, as well. And I have added those for every manuscript indeed. Maybe I'll just stop doing that unless they say they want it. (I have been using Shunn's manuscript format, and he uses double spaces.)


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Lyn
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   Posted 2/8/2008 8:47 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Single space after a sentence is almost the new standard. I say go for it! Don't space out anymore, lol.


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/8/2008 4:59 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Firlefanz said...
Are you saying that the demise of the double space is around the corner? Yay!

It is, if I'm the editor.
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MysticWino
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   Posted 2/11/2008 4:04 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I emphatically agree: single space! No double spaces. For sentences. It seriously is inconvenient, tedious, and sometimes a test of patient when it comes to layout. At best. At worst, it can send some of us into fits of apoplexy.

Em-dash should be typeset as an em-dash, not as double dashes. Doesn't work very well to do the double-dash thing, and most wordprocessing programs have a way to enter the correct symbol (in MSWord, it is ctrl+alt+dash [or minus, sometimes depending on your keyboard]). In InDesign, it is Alt+Shft+dash. And there should be no spaces. In good layout programs, this will come out right. In Word and other applications not specifically geared for printed layout, they come out looking wrong because they process differently.

I use the Em- much more in poetry than in fiction. I prefer the ellipsis in fiction and sometimes may abuse it.

ALL CAPS for just about anything but a simple, single word tends to raise my BP. Especially in titles. I realize it is easier and okay to use in titles on blogs, but for a submitted work, I deplore it. Use Title Case, Please.

The double space IS dead (in America). It's just not gracious about it.

Oh, and I loathe Courier more than just about any font out there. About the only time I'll read it for more than three words is if I get subs obviously typed on a typewriter (and I do get these - in part I don't mind them because of the feel and smell of the paper, which is very different from paper run through a puter printer).


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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/11/2008 4:07 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hermit said...

ALL CAPS for just about anything but a simple, single word tends to raise my BP. Especially in titles. I realize it is easier and okay to use in titles on blogs, but for a submitted work, I deplore it. Use Title Case, Please.

Oh, and I loathe Courier more than just about any font out there. About the only time I'll read it for more than three words is if I get subs obviously typed on a typewriter (and I do get these - in part I don't mind them because of the feel and smell of the paper, which is very different from paper run through a puter printer).

Dang, this is different from standard. Just goes to show you that it pays to read submission guidelines and not just to assume that standard manuscript format is going to fly at all places.


Jordan Lapp
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MysticWino
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   Posted 2/11/2008 4:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Well . . . I don't think I've actually written it into my guidelines. Since the vast majority of my subs come electronically, I reformat to suit my reading. I do, however, explicitly state that all content is formatted to the publication.

YES, Jordan, I do agree: always good to pay very close attention to the details of the guidelines.

As for "standard manuscript format", that's about as clear as saying to use standard grammar and punctuation. So much depends on which standard.

Jordan Lapp said...
Hermit said...

ALL CAPS for just about anything but a simple, single word tends to raise my BP. Especially in titles. I realize it is easier and okay to use in titles on blogs, but for a submitted work, I deplore it. Use Title Case, Please.

Oh, and I loathe Courier more than just about any font out there. About the only time I'll read it for more than three words is if I get subs obviously typed on a typewriter (and I do get these - in part I don't mind them because of the feel and smell of the paper, which is very different from paper run through a puter printer).

Dang, this is different from standard. Just goes to show you that it pays to read submission guidelines and not just to assume that standard manuscript format is going to fly at all places.


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/12/2008 3:55 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My big pet peeve is submissions that are double-spaced. I don't mind that if it's a paper submission and I need space between the lines to write, but for electronic Word documents, it annoys me. The first thing I do is select all and change the spacing between the lines to 1 instead of 2.


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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/12/2008 4:00 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Holy crap, is that in your submission guidelines? Sorry, I totally missed that. Apologies.


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DAWaverly
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   Posted 2/12/2008 5:05 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is a real eye opener... not only do we have to follow the published guidelines, but we need to grok the unspoken ones... sheesh...


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/12/2008 6:07 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
Holy crap, is that in your submission guidelines? Sorry, I totally missed that. Apologies.


Naw, and I normally never mention it to anyone, either. I also don't base accepting or rejecting on it. I just personally don't like it.
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   Posted 2/12/2008 6:32 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My main problem is that I've gotten used to the double space after sentences. Somebody tought me that in computer class in middle school, and it stuck, forever. Now I do it in my fiction, in my memos, and even in these posts!!! I try to stop it consciously, and I end up with manuscripts that are half and half.

And I never use the last comma... And I use double spacing between lines! And I use courrier...

Aaargh! Maybe I should just give up now, before some irate editor has me tarred and feathered...


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MysticWino
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   Posted 2/13/2008 12:40 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
DAWaverly said...
This is a real eye opener... not only do we have to follow the published guidelines, but we need to grok the unspoken ones... sheesh...
Knowing my own eccentricities in this, I wonder how much of that has to do with my paralysis when it comes to submitting work. "Be brave, Carlos! Be brave!"


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   Posted 2/18/2008 7:24 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gustavo said...
My main problem is that I've gotten used to the double space after sentences. Somebody tought me that in computer class in middle school, and it stuck, forever. Now I do it in my fiction, in my memos, and even in these posts!!! I try to stop it consciously, and I end up with manuscripts that are half and half.

And I never use the last comma... And I use double spacing between lines! And I use courrier...

Aaargh! Maybe I should just give up now, before some irate editor has me tarred and feathered...

Heh. I hear you, brother! Double spaced is just so much easier on the eyes, as is (dare I say) courier.


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R. L. Copple
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   Posted 2/18/2008 10:37 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If guidelines don't mention it, then I have to assume standard format, which while there are some small differences, there is a standard, standard format that is commonly accepted. Double-spaced lines, indented paragraphs, courier font usually being very standard. But, I do read the guidelines and if the editor wants it a different way, I've rarely ran into a situation that is difficult to switch over to quickly. I even have some Word macros for quickly going from double-spaced lines to double-spaced paragraphs, and another for htmling a story so that curly quotes are removed, all double-dashes are changed to ellipsis, all spaces are removed from an ellipsis (sorry Crystal!), underlining and italics are changed to html italics, bold, etc. I use that for Haruah submissions to get them ready. Click of a button and its done.

But, standard format is the starting spot. Deviate from there as requested. :)


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