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RoberII
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  		   Posted 5/9/2008 10:24 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The billboards scream shit at the city
and its drunkards scream drunkard truths
at busses when they drive by taking pictures.

I know this city, as a lover knows
the faults of his lovers body, the warts
are trashcans turned over and
spilt across her back.

And asphalt skin stretches out for miles
its covered in blisters and babies cry
from backalley boxes, and I
am such an infant, yes, and so
I hold my tongue.

***

Thoughts? What should I work on?
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Lyn
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  		   Posted 5/9/2008 10:43 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not a poet, and really don't know too much about the genre - so I'm reading this from a sci-fi/fantasy fan perspective that might happen across your verse in a zine, for example. So my first reaction is that I don't like the word sh*t. Too banal. Maybe "Billboards yell vulgarities for all to see" (sorta sound/sight fusion)... and then you're off to the races.

Lyn from ResAliens
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Reviewing Short Stories at My Blog
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RoberII
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  		   Posted 5/9/2008 10:50 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see your point. I like the triples S's of Scream Shit and City, though.

Shit is a pretty cheap word, however. I'll see what I can do.
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Lyn
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  		   Posted 5/9/2008 10:53 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gotcha, alliteration, hadn't noticed that...but like I said, I'm not a poet or trained that way at all. lol

Lyn from ResAliens
Reviewing Zines at The Fix
Reviewing Short Stories at My Blog
And Promoting Strange Worlds of Lunacy

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MysticWino
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  		   Posted 5/12/2008 12:53 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you're looking for alliteration, you should likely go for something with a closer 's' sound. Try 'scat' instead of chit - which consequently gives it a very interesting and strange double meaning . . .
Why are drunkards driving by taking pictures?
How about working on symmetry? Since you start with alliteration, why not end with it? Or are you going for chaos verse form? It seems to want form in the first stanza, but then it just goes ambling into nowhere. Which is easy enough for a drunk in the city . . . but the poet should have a sober pen no matter how pissed he is. I'd try going with the original impulse of triplets in fairly, if not precisely, uniform line lengths.
Breaking form is fine - as long as there is a reason for it. If I've missed the meaning . . . so be it. But I don't really see much of a poem here yet. It's more like a journal entry. It still needs crafted into poetry.

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RHFay
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  		   Posted 5/12/2008 1:23 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In case you're interested in my opinion, I will just echo what has already been said about replacing sh*t with something more strongly alliterative. I think you already realised that it should be replaced when you stated that is was a "cheap" word.

I think care should be used when inserting curse words into a work. They can be effective, but they can also be over-used. Since they have become rather common in speech and entertainment, I think they may have lost some of their impact.

I can walk the streets here and hear plenty of swear words, so I tend to ignore them best I can.

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
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  		   Posted 5/12/2008 1:29 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you really wanted to run with the alliteration, maybe replace "billboards" with "neon signs" or something like that. You would have the bonus of getting rid of the article, too. It might sound better without the "the" in the beginning.

Just a suggestion.

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RoberII
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  		   Posted 5/12/2008 1:38 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The busses are driving by taking pictures :)

I'm having a hard time finding a better word than shit. Scat is a bit too prissy, but a good suggestion. Shit is a good word for the urban theme of it I think.

For some reason I have a tendency to make each succesive stanza longer than the one before it.

Hmm.. I think I have an idea of what to do. I think the first stanza could be done away with and the metaphor of the city as a woman could be expanded. Or perhaps the bums could be included as a father figure.

*goes to work on it*
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MysticWino
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  		   Posted 5/12/2008 4:13 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
what's prissy about 'scat'?
And what is good about "shit"? It's void, especially in the context. ah . . . pardon the pun on void.
and what is urban about it?
"Jive" may be urban and true to the context, but a bit dated. "Shit" says nothing. It merely implies falsehood/pretention in relation to the billboards. There's so much more that could be said of the propoganda dripping from them. And shit is so overused as to be less forceful even than 'rubish'.

Interesting thought of going with the city as woman. I think you could likely tie the billboard toward that metaphor as well, as though a shallow facade or false advertisement - bait & switch of the city downtown/uptown and the ghetto between the city's legs is rancid with crawling vermin . . .

Read me in The Return of the Sword!
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MysticWino
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  		   Posted 5/14/2008 12:39 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

So, is there a rewrite coming?

Or were you really just here to harass Richard? devil

Either way doesn't matter. Just want to know if I'm wasting time/energy replying to Loki. If not, I'm happy to contribute what I can. :-)

Read me in The Return of the Sword!
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RHFay
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  		   Posted 5/14/2008 12:47 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Give him time. Rewrites don't always happen overnight. I actually like his concept of expanding the idea of the metaphor and using it as a theme throughout the poem.

That's just the sort of thing a poet should be looking for when revising and rewriting.

By the way, if he's Loki, I hope I'm not Balder. I guess I had better watch out for darts made from mistletoe.

The god of light, joy, purity, beauty, innocence, and reconciliation? Nah, that ain't me. So I have nothing to worry 'bout.

Right?

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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MysticWino
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  		   Posted 5/14/2008 5:12 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry. Takes me about ten minutes to write a sonnet. I forget sometimes that people cogitate much more over things than I do. Matter of attention for me. Most of the real work goes on in my subconscious; I'm just the guy who reports it.
And as pointy as the question may have been, it seemed a legitimate question to ask.
No judgement. Just questions. :-)
 
Addendum: Of course, had I read further in the Gripe forum, I would have seen your intro and saved myself this embarrassment. My bad. So sorry. And, I too am quite interested in seeing what you come up with in the woman/city metaphor.

Read me in The Return of the Sword!
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"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

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RoberII
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  		   Posted 5/19/2008 7:12 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No worries.

As for writing time, I usually have parts of a poem that I then try and add on to. Which means the first half (or in this case the first stanza) takes a few minutes and the rest takes much longer. I'm currently in the the rest phase.
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Constance
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  		   Posted 5/19/2008 9:31 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My thoughts – less might be more. Play on reader assumptions; we know billboards scream ‘shit’. Perhaps some understatement so you don’t lost the power of your thought.

Billboards scream at the city
drunkards scream drunkard truths
at busses when they drive by taking pictures.

Second thought – why the comma in between CITY, and AS in the second stanza? The pause makes the line lose some of its forcefulness. Also, with regards to the showing vs telling discussions, “the warts are trashcans” could be made stronger by flipping the image around. A little tightening makes a more Ginsberg-esque drive to the poem.

I know this city as a lover knows
the faults of his lovers body, trashcan
warts turned over and spilt across her back.

Of course, these are things I would do to the poem, were it mine, but it’s yours, so YMMV. :-)

Constance
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crystalwizard
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  		   Posted 5/19/2008 10:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>Thoughts? What should I work on?

comments below:

The billboards scream shit at the city <-- find something other than crass obscenity.

and its drunkards scream drunkard truths
......................................^^^^^^
drunken

at busses when they drive by taking pictures. <--busses take pictures? Are they equiped with cameras?

I know this city, as a lover knows
................................^^^^
the faults of his lovers body, the warts
......................^^^^^
Don't repeat words and phrases so close together. Even in poetry it's irritating.

are trashcans turned over and
spilt across her back.

I don't understand how a wart, or warts, can be compared to trashcans and I think you mean spilt, not split.


And asphalt skin stretches out for miles
^^^................................^^^
Delete 'and'. Sentence starts with Asphalt
Delete 'out'. Unnecessary wording.

its covered in blisters and babies cry
^..........................^^^^
Delete its. Period after Blisters. Delete and. Capitalize Babies.

from backalley boxes, and I
^^^^^
Back alley. Back-alley. Not Backalley
period after boxes. Delte 'and'

am such an infant, yes, and so
................^^^^^...............^^^
Period after infant. Capitalize Yes. Ellipses after so...

I hold my tongue.


It's got promise but it's weak on imagery. There's never any good reason to resort to vulgar, crass obscenities. There's a dictionary full of much stronger words that paint a much more intense picture in the minds of the readers. Don't fall into that trap.
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Swashbuckler
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  		   Posted 5/21/2008 2:54 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me defend the word in question for a moment. I think it works, on an alliterative level and on a descriptive level. To me, billboards are vulgar and crass themselves, and so a vulgar and crass word to describe them makes perfect sense. I wouldn't change it.

RoberII: I rather like the imagery here, very nice use of language. The poem is something of a downer, and so not my usual thing, but I think it well written.

Steve Goble

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RHFay
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  		   Posted 5/21/2008 5:06 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe I don't quite understand the technical aspects of alliteration, but how is the "sh" sound an alliteration of the "s" sound?  To my ear, they sound a bit different.

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Swashbuckler
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  		   Posted 5/21/2008 8:19 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Richard: It's not so much the "s" and the "sh" to which I refer, but the "t" sounds in "shit" and "city." And there is assonance there as well with the short "i" sounds, along with partial internal rhyme within the line.

You're throwing away an awful lot of good poetic technique if you get rid of the word, plus a bit of depth as the word serves as commentary about what those billboards contain.

Steve Goble

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RHFay
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  		   Posted 5/22/2008 5:26 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Swashbuckler said...
Richard: It's not so much the "s" and the "sh" to which I refer, but the "t" sounds in "shit" and "city." And there is assonance there as well with the short "i" sounds, along with partial internal rhyme within the line.

Okay, I see what you're saying now.  It does make more sense when you speak of the assonance in the line.  And yes, the assonance is a nice feature of that line.

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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MysticWino
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  		   Posted 5/22/2008 7:52 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Steve, the hard 'e' in city ruins any resonance you get with chit/sity, thus creating a dissonance that trashes the line. There is nothing redeeming in that line whatsoever. It is banal to the Nth. There is no technique to throw away with the shit. And there is no depth created by that word whatsoever. I really don't get what you're looking at or listening to, but it certainly is not the quality of that line. It stinks on ice! No getting around that. It could only be redeemed by a line that somehow offsets it, and that line would kill what he's built with the line that follows, which is far better.

Read me in The Return of the Sword!
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"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell
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Swashbuckler
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  		   Posted 5/23/2008 12:45 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mystic: You know, opinions, everybody's got one.

Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

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MysticWino
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  		   Posted 5/23/2008 9:34 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Precisely! And I congratulate you, sir, on having the moxie to state yours. Despite my disagreement with it, I respect both you and your opinion. Sorry if it comes across as otherwise - I've been in constant pain for ten days [pinched nerve], and have felt rather more abrasive than I care to be. My apologies if that carried into my post. You're a gentleman for being subtle, sir.
Swashbuckler said...
Mystic: You know, opinions, everybody's got one.

Read me in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com
"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell
Assistant Copy Editor: Flashing Swords Magazine

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