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| SFReader Forums > Writing > Poetry > wannabe poet... | Forum Quick Jump
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RHFay
Sage
      
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/21/2008 4:24 PM (GMT -5) |   |
Bitter Irony said...
What makes one person's opinion more correct than another's? -Expertise.
So, all the experts all over the world are in total agreement, and that's what makes certain viewpoints absolutely more correct than others?  I know my background isn't really in English, it's in science, but I know you rarely get total agreement in science. I find it hard to believe that you get total agreement in the literary field. I know for a fact that at least one accomplished authors/publisher (Orson Scott Card) questions the absolute importance of "show, don't tell".
Yes, yes, yes, you can present plenty of literary experts that feel otherwise, but it is just their opinion. It might be backed by their weighty educations and backgrounds, but it is still opinion.
I will say yet again, I've had instances when two editors or editorial teams with apparently equal expertise view the same poem in different ways. One saw the poem as flawed, that it told too much and didn't show enough, while the other felt it was a fine poem.
Doesn't this incident hint at a possible variation of opinion even among those with some sort of "expertise"?
What about the supposed "folk art" nature of speculative poetry? Isn't the whole nature of folk art art by the folk, not the experts in their ivory towers?
I must do this, I must do that, I can't do this, I can't do that - rubbish! That kind of talk will cause artforms to stagnate and die.
If labelling is going to cause so much trouble, then call it whatever the heck you want to make you happy. Call it a poor speculative haiku mutation, call it weak short form poetry, call it fruitcake, I don't care anymore. 
And a final note - who the heck am I writing my poems for, anyway? I write speculative poetry published in specualtive fiction and poetry publications. Who do I ultimately want to please - the academic experts in their ivory towers (a possibly unrealistic goal, as least according to previous discussions), or my "inexpert" readers? 
Yeah, I may just actually "write for my audience". Is this wrong?
I probably come off as more frustrated than I really am. I've just been in a bit of a funk recently, and end up shaking my head over much of this. I may get blasted for saying this, but I think certain things are often seen as a little more important than they actually are, at least from my perspective. I think that's what I've been trying to say all along.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1276
| Posted 5/21/2008 3:05 AM (GMT -5) | | I've been following along. This conversation is amusing and frustrating.
Richard, nobody is saying one person's opinion is the "right" one (although Bitter Irony is right, there is informed opinion and there is not-so-informed opinion, etc.) All that's really happened here is that some people have told you why they didn't particularly like a poem. Are their reasons good? Bad? That's for you to decide, and each individual reader to decide. But if I say I didn't like the poem because of repetition of an image, or the telling-not-showing, or whatever -- then I am right, because I am the world's leading authority on what I like and what I don't like.
Does it mean I'm carving a rule in granite and whacking your fingers with a ruler if you break that rule? No. I'm just telling you what I like and what I don't. Does it mean you should run off to a corner and never write another poem? Nah. Does it mean that no one else will like it, just because I don't? Nah.
Don't worry so much about validation, Richard. Write your stuff, make it as good as you can, say what you want to say, publish it and write the next one. And if you ask for comments, take them and read them and filter them through your own sensibilities -- but don't agonize over them or get all defensive about it. Life's too short. A writer needs a thick skin along with all that creativity.
Some people, no doubt, think my stories are crap on a stick. So what?
Steve Goble
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Bitter Irony
Grammar Goddess and Spelling Sinner
Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 5/20/2008 4:26 PM (GMT -5) | | |
What makes one person's opinion more correct than another's? -Expertise.
Say two people have read my haiku—my mother and Cor van den Heuvel. Mom loves it, really-and-truly-not-just-saying-it-to-save-my-feelings loves it, and van den Heuvel says it’s trash. Who’s more correct? The one who knows more about the form! So many people fail to realize that haiku are not meant to be read and easily processed in three seconds flat. They have levels of meaning, and when the poet takes full advantage of the form, it takes more than an understanding of language to read them. It takes an understanding of perception.
What all this boils down to is that yes, poetry can be objectively judged—by how well it accomplishes its task. If I set out to entertain my reader for three seconds, then yes, I can write some words on three lines and, provided my grammar is correct and my descriptions not too far-fetched, my reader will indeed be entertained. Sure, I’d call that success. But if I set out to write a great haiku, there will be more criteria to meet—criteria that are not a matter of opinion, but of form.
Sure, there are great haiku (and poems in general) that some people dislike. But enough people can agree on criteria that we do manage to have great haiku. Who are these people agreeing on criteria? Probably not my mother. She can say objectively whether she liked the poem or not; but she cannot, with her current level of knowledge, objectively say that the poem is a great haiku.
~Bitter Irony
From even the greatest of horrors, Irony is seldom absent.
~H.P. Lovecraft, The Shunned House
And here I begin my foray into the dark and deadly waters of e-zine editing...
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/20/2008 1:46 PM (GMT -5) | |
crystalwizard said...
Your poetry is good, Richard. Well, that's your opinion. Shared by several editors of speculative publications, some with what I consider pretty impressive backgrounds in poetry, but still just one opinion among many.
I will admit, some examples of my poetry are better than others. I've even had a few pieces published that I wished I had done a bit differently. I realised after publication that certain details could have been better.
Still, must we always produce masterpieces? Striving for a masterpiece is a great goal, but is it practical for every single piece of verse we speculative poets ever compose?
I will say this - I know I have a few "regular readers", some friends I made on-line that now regularly read my stuff published on-line. These regular readers are always pleased with my works, including pieces that have stirred up debate here and elsewhere. In other words, these people did not see the poems as weak or flawed.
I say again - what makes one person's opinion more correct than another's?
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/20/2008 1:28 PM (GMT -5) | |
crystalwizard said...There's no legal requirement to follow the rules, but don't your creation by the name of the form if you don't.
Tried that. Caught heck for it.
Like I said earlier, I think I've just done too much poetry lately, and just need to be less intense about it. Things said are starting to effect me more than they should, which is usually an indication that I'm tired and need to rest my weary head.
Ultimately, I think I'll let the editors decide whether my work submitted for publication is any good or not. Others can enter into the debate about the poetic skills and expertise of various editors if they like; I'm staying out of that particular discussion. I happen to know that the backgrounds, opinions, tastes, and needs of various editors differ as much as the backgrounds and styles of various writers.
What I am beginning to loathe, and I've already said this before, is the presentation of personal opinion as some sort of literary law. I've even seen this taken so far as making the statement that only what I personally like must be a classic, and what I dislike cannot possibly be considered a classic of literature.
I have been called arrogant and egotistical, but this idea that one particular individual's opinion must be the only correct opinion is egotism and arrogance to the extreme.
Isn't "good" writing often in the eye of the beholder? If not, then Hemingway is not a classic author. He sucks! I've had Hemingway thrown in my face, but I don't particularly like Hemingway's style, and since only my opinion must truly count, then Hemingway must be terribly overrated.
See how ridiculous this looks?
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 5/19/2008 9:02 PM (GMT -5) | | >Frankly, I'm fed up with it all. I hate to say it, but all forms of poetry in general, and haiku in particular, seem to carry a dreadful amount of baggage.
There's no baggage, but a form is a specific thing. It's got specific rules. Break the rules and you don't have the form. You have something that is similar but you don't have the form
I heard a comerical on the radio the other day that illustrates this pretty well. Two guys talking. The first says 'have you seen that new burrito at McDonalds?'
the other goes 'yeah. I had one just the other day. What I really liked was the soft flour tortilla wrapped around the insides. Sheer genius'
The first one goes 'That's what makes it a burrito. You can't have a burrito with out the soft flour tortilla wrapped around the insides.'
The second one ignores him and says 'I had an open faced burrito for lunch with pepperoni. It was good.'
The first one says 'That's a pizza!'
The second one said 'And I had a great crunchy burrito last night. Folded it in half and put beans and lettuce in it.'
The first one says 'That was a taco!'
The point being, the only thing that actually was a buritto, was the burrito. Even though the second guy insisted on calling all the other items 'burrito'.
The same goes for poetry forms. There are very specific rules. Certain number of lines, syllables, what they can be about.
There's no legal requirement to follow the rules, but don't your creation by the name of the form if you don't.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
Managing Editor of Flashing Swords
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RoberII
Stablehand
Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 5/19/2008 7:05 PM (GMT -5) | | Richard, the idea of poetry as enjoyment is at the very core of this entire discussion, not label rule bashery. But what makes a poem enjoyable? There are certain things that makes any writing enjoyable, and these things are expressed as rules - show, don't tell, don't repeat yourself, etc etc etc.
Of course, everyone has a different idea of what is enjoyable, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules hold true at least 90 % of the time. But some people just really want to read about vampires or dragons or whatnot, and will happily read the crappiest poetry out there to read about these things. (I also believe this is the reason why some of the pregnant-woman anime artists out there are so popular. That doesn't make them any better artists, of course. Also: Eragon. Also Britney Spears. Some people will do anything to themselves if they can only dance as they suffer.)
As for repetition.. IMHO, the fact that it may be accepted by editors makes no difference as to whether or not it is good writing. And by good I mean powerful. You yourself admitted that it is (probably) better to avoid repetition, so why not do it? Why accept mediocre writing when you can make it better, especially if you're getting paid for it? From what I have heard from you about which poems get published, I'm guessing that you could get Bitter Irony's first poem published, but that doesn't really change the fact that the second one is better. Personally, I would probably be somewhat iffed if I had paid good money for the first one, but not in the second case. At least it tells a story and sets my imagination going.
Why would anyone want to read a poem that is basically just a generic description of an object? A description which carries no emotional impact or tells any kind of story?
PS
I could tell that your, err, poem was about me, yes, but I certainly don't recognize myself in it. | | Back to Top | | |
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/19/2008 2:24 PM (GMT -5) | |
MysticWino said......what's a crusty bit of white bread like me know about Zen and haiku?
That statement is undoubtedly truer for me. The fact that I write haiku at all is pretty contrary to my usual nature. I prefer longer works, stories versus moments.
And maybe that's my real problem. Perhaps I truly don't understand the "spirit" of haiku, and perhaps I never will. I don't think it's something that can necessarily be taught; I think it needs to be in your heart, in your soul.
Still, if I get ideas (brain's runnin' on empty at this very moment), I'll keep plugging away at my speculative haiku mutations. And if they don't meet with the haiku ideal, well, at least I tried to do something with my ideas.
It is better to try and to fail than to never try at all.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/19/2008 1:20 PM (GMT -5) | |
crystalwizard said...
>speculative haiku
I'll repeat this one more time. There is no such thing. There is speculative short verse that mimics the haiku form. But Haiku is a specific thing with specific rules, which the speculative creature breaks without even apologizing.
And calling such poems 'horroku' or 'scifiku' or 'anythingelseaku' doesn't change that. Frustrated with this whole labelling issue, I've tried to say I won't call my works anything anymore and let the reader decide which name, label, or definition fits. I caught heck elsewhere for that comment, basically being told I present the rules for haiku and then write haiku that break the rules and try to call them something else to justify breaking the rules.
Frankly, I'm fed up with it all. I hate to say it, but all forms of poetry in general, and haiku in particular, seem to carry a dreadful amount of baggage. In other words, it's so very easy to be critical of certain poems based on various definitions, rules, and perceptions of form. The idea of poetry for pleasure, for enjoyment, doesn't really seem to exist anymore, if it ever truly did.
Keep in mind that my frustration regarding poetry is bleeding over from various aspects of my life - not just the discussions here on SFReader. For example, I just had a final stanza chopped from one of my recently published poems, so the whole idea of poetry right now is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. Good thing I've just about got enough poems for that special project, because I'm getting ready to concentrate on prose and art for a while. I think I need to step back from intense poetry composing and give my poetry muse a break.
I may have actually done too much too quickly, and now I'm a bit burned out by it all. 
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/19/2008 12:56 PM (GMT -5) | |
MysticWino said...
Took me years to get over; and I still have regressions ocassionally and get bent about people not reading it right. But . . . they are reading it right for them. Once I've placed it in front of someone else, it's theirs to enjoy or not. Hmm...sounds suspiciously like my argument that a lot boils down to different opinions and different perceptions.
I could probably take some of these "repetitive speculative haiku" and argue that, for some at least, the last line isn't so much repeating the idea of the previous lines as it's seeing the same thing from a slightly different perspective. Or perhaps reinforcing the idea from a slightly different angle.
Then again, maybe I'm too kind in my assessment. I guess, when it comes to haiku, I'm a dabbler (amateur?) instead of a hard-core haikuist.
Do I want to improve my craft? Of course, any artist worth his or her salt does. Do I want to spend all my time working on one or two haiku, or spend years studying this stuff before I get my hands dirty? Of course not! (I was told elsewhere that certain writers of haiku would take years working on certain individual haiku. That seems unpractical and rather absurd to me. Maybe it was fine for them, but it's not fine for me. I have other things to do with my life, thank you very much.)
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 5/19/2008 1:13 AM (GMT -5) | | >speculative haiku
I'll repeat this one more time. There is no such thing. There is speculative short verse that mimics the haiku form. But Haiku is a specific thing with specific rules, which the speculative creature breaks without even apologizing.
And calling such poems 'horroku' or 'scifiku' or 'anythingelseaku' doesn't change that. | | Back to Top | | |
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Bitter Irony
Grammar Goddess and Spelling Sinner
Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 5/18/2008 2:06 PM (GMT -5) | | | But is the repetition accepted by writers and editors of speculative haiku? Even if it is, what readers want to read something lacking in surprise or depth of meaning? The point of haiku--any haiku, even speculative ones--is to present an interesting image in the way it was "experienced" by the poet (not literally, of course, in the case of spec. haiku). If the image was experienced in a nondescript, repetative way, what makes the poet think it is worth writing a haiku about? Why would anyone want to read it?
This doesn't even pertain to the art of haiku-writing per se, but writing in general. What is surprising, unique, and unpredicted often gets a stronger response than spelling out answers for the reader. I'm not a big fan of picking sides over "popular vs. literary," but I'll always take "exciting and powerful" over anything else, no matter how popular or literary the alternative may be.
I guess it all comes down to the question: what is the poet trying to accomplish with the repetition? I have the feeling it has more to do with getting the poem finished than with getting a response for the reader.
~Bitter Irony
From even the greatest of horrors, Irony is seldom absent. ~H.P. Lovecraft, The Shunned House
And here I begin my foray into the dark and deadly waters of e-zine editing...
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/18/2008 1:04 PM (GMT -5) | | |
But, but, but...if the repetition is fairly common in speculative haiku, and it is accepted by writers of speculative haiku and editors that publish speculative haiku, why call it "amateurish"? Why call it wrong? You said yourself that haiku in English are a bit different than Japanese haiku, and speculative haiku are even different still from their distant Japanese origins.
This has been my point all along about personal opinions and poetic authorities. Why is one person's opinion more correct than another? Isn't it ultimately up to the editors and readers of speculative poetry to decide what's right or what's wrong? And individual opinions will differ, regardless of what "poetic rules and ideals" are thrown around. After all, I've alredy been told previously that speculative poetry is more of a "folk art" than a "fine art", which I take to mean it follows the rules set forth by the people (the folk), not necessarily the literary (or poetic) academics.
So, speculative haiku might not always live up to the haiku "ideal". For the sake of ruffling a few feathers, so what? If what's done works for the majority of editors, readers, and writers of speculative poetry, does it truly matter from a practical standpoint if something like the repetition isn't "proper" to "true" haiku?
Would a movement away from the "repetition" be better? Probably. Do I view it as "necessary"? No, not if it works at this point in time for the intended markets and intended audience. Can speculative haiku, or speculative poetry in general, benefit from more influence from "literary" poetry. Again, probably, but the rules for speculative poetry may be a bit looser than those for "literary" poetry.
This is why I'm beginning to take everything said everywhere with a healthy dose of of salt. One should always listen to feedback from individuals, but one should always consider the bigger picture as well.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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Bitter Irony
Grammar Goddess and Spelling Sinner
Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 5/17/2008 3:40 PM (GMT -5) | | The jury is still out on "senryu" and "haiku" in English. In my opinion, such distinctions belong to Japanese poetry, where the devisions are more clear anyway (haiku use kigo/season words, senryu don't, etc.) Short verse in English take the form places where I doubt the Japanese ever expected it to go, for example, a combination of human action and a natural observation. And then there are short verses, like this one, that observe concepts and personal attitudes. Those who make the distinction would call it a senryu; those who consider all short verse to be basically the same genre (as I do, and I think many other English-writing haijin do as well) would simply call it haiku.
Whew, I think that made sense. This website has a bit to say about the subject: http://members.tripod.com/~Startag/HkSenDiff.html, and the writer is a good deal more expert and coherant than I am.
I wasn't quite clear about the "repeating the image" thing in western haiku: what I meant is that it is an amateur's idea, rather than an aknowledged and accepted haiku technique. As you said, it's hardly an issue here, where the poem is a product of venting. However, it appears with startling frequency in speculative haiku and its related forms. For example,
blood-red lips
in a white face
vampire lover
...repeats the same gosh-dang image, while
new moon...
in the skin of his neck
two black holes
...gets the same image across without repeating anything. (Heck, turn the last two lines of the second haiku into the first two of the first, and it works just as well.) This is the difference between showing and telling in haiku/cinquain/tanka/whathaveyou. Telling presents an image or idea outright; showing lets the reader experience it for him/herself.
~Bitter Irony
P.S. The two haiku above were typed spur-of-the-moment: the poet may not be held responsible for any headaches induced by their flimsy-ness. 
From even the greatest of horrors, Irony is seldom absent.
~H.P. Lovecraft, The Shunned House
And here I begin my foray into the dark and deadly waters of e-zine editing...
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1887
| Posted 5/17/2008 3:09 PM (GMT -5) | |
Bitter Irony said...Great job at turning venting into something productive! I wonder if your wannabe would recognize her/himself if s/he read this... But what's up with the last line? It completely restates the idea of the first two!
Yep, the person has commented that this poem is about him. It was basically my way of dealing with what I perceived, even if I did possibly misinterpret what was said.
As for the last line restating the first two - as you pointed out, it is something seen in western haiku. I understand the dislike for such a thing, but since this poem was merely a product of venting, I'm not too worried about it.
However, it is a point to keep in mind. It might be done in western haiku, but it's certainly not always the best way to compose a haiku. (Would "wannabe poet" technically be a senyru instead of a haiku because of its subject matter? I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of Japanese forms of poetry to definitely call it one or the other.)
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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