|
|
|
|
|
| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > S&S without the sorcery | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
erazmus
Master
      
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:44 AM (GMT -5) |   | Nickolai,
Yes, or better still, where both explanations are unimportant. You managed to cut off its head, who acres if the monster was a prehistoric throwback, a sorcerously summoned being or a radioactive mutant? What difference does it make? Unless the writer decides to make it make a difference it won't.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
 |
nikolai
Stablehand
Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:37 AM (GMT -5) | | | There's a literary genre called the "fantastic", which isn't fantasy as we would understand it - but has elements which could be interpreted as either natural or supernatural. An example is the ghost story "The Turn of the Screw", the ghosts could be real or they could just in the minds of the characters. I think you could certainly do a S&S story like this, walking the thin line between realism and magic, where both explainations could be possible. | | Back to Top | | |
|
erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:24 AM (GMT -5) | | Many of the elements that make up a S&S story are also present in a Mythos story, yet there are very few stories that clearly fit both catagories. In fact if you accept some of the definitions sometimes put forth by adherints of each type of fiction there are none. Those definitions being something like "a story that reads like a badly written Howardian pastiche is S&S, whilst a Mythos story must read like a badly written Lovecraftian pastiche!"
Of course such a definition would be bull____. Just as it takes more than a hero in a loincloth with a sword and a villan in ornate robes to make a story S&S, it also takes less. Its almost an attitude. If Doyle's professor Challenger were less a scientist and more a freeboooting mercinary, and with a few less guns, _The Lost World_ could be an S&S story. Certainly a story set in exactly the same place, featuring a conquistidore, could be.
I think its important that we don't define the genre into a corner. Genre's are big spaces, really. Lots of room in the tent. Otherwise we rapidly approach the headspace of exclusion, where anything different doesn't fit. When that is acceptable the genre's dead-no new stuff, just rehashes of the old stuff.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:06 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Red Viper
To me, the essence is that the supernatural represents the unknown. If a fantasy world is dripping with magic, so much so that its inhabitants give it little more thought than we give the weather, then you haven't caught the spirit of sword-and-sorcery, at least to my thinking. When you introduce magic, monsters, curses, strange lands, spirits, etc. that go beyond the "norm" for your characters, then you've hit on the right amount. Traditionally, heroic fantasy pits its heroes against the great unknown, whatever that may be. The heroes, braver tan most or forced by circumstances not faced by others, must confront that unknown -- and they don't always triumph.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Many of the Conan stories, when deconstructed and analyzed, could be said to be quasi-SF tales. 'Rogues in the House' had a monster that could have come straight out of another Conan, Conan Doyle's, 'The Lost World'. Yet hints of otherworldly sorcery, or were-creatures and other weirdness were perfectly hinted at to give the overall feel of a world beyond the ordinary.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:06 AM (GMT -5) | | I don't believe that S&S requires a 'made up' setting. It just requires magic operating on some level and a certain lack of sophisticated technology. Solomon Kane? Africa is a very real place though Solomon's is a bit different than most people find ours.
I think that if the supernatural is assumed real that that is enough, assuming everything else fits. Like obsenity I know S&S when I see it.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 8:56 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
But how much of an element do you need to make it S&S? Is it enough to just have a setting that reeks of possibilities beyond the normal? Are temples, priests and cults, superstitions treated as real, and the like enough for S&S to be present?
Mike
I think an S&S tale needs to have something beyond the ordinary, something that differentiates it fundamentally from the real world. Simply substituting place names, countries, etc for made up ones, or swapping a rampaging elephant for a rampaging oliphaunt is not enough IMO. In fact it strikes me as somewhat pointless. As for merely hinting at things beyond the ordinary, I think that's totally acceptable provided it makes something of an impact to the main plot. Leiber's 'Claws From the Night' for instance had very little supernatural in it save a passing remark to do with a bird-like goddess and a moment towards the end. Yet it is undoubtedly a prime example of S&S. Its unusual threat, its mysterious sense of the supernatural, and yes, its exotic location, all contributed towards the 'sorcery' aspect. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Red Viper
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 439
| Posted 8/21/2005 8:51 AM (GMT -5) | | Mike asked how much of a supernatural element is necessary to make a sword-and-sorcery story a sword-and-sorcery story. To me, the essence is that the supernatural represents the unknown. If a fantasy world is dripping with magic, so much so that its inhabitants give it little more thought than we give the weather, then you haven't caught the spirit of sword-and-sorcery, at least to my thinking. When you introduce magic, monsters, curses, strange lands, spirits, etc. that go beyond the "norm" for your characters, then you've hit on the right amount. Traditionally, heroic fantasy pits its heroes against the great unknown, whatever that may be. The heroes, braver tan most or forced by circumstances not faced by others, must confront that unknown -- and they don't always triumph.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Others?
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble
Fantasy writer with stories appearing soon in "Flashing Swords" and "Amazing Journeys Magazine" | | Back to Top | | |
|
trey
Neophyte
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 72
| Posted 8/21/2005 8:38 AM (GMT -5) | | I think mostly, there would need to be some sort of fantastic element, though not neccessarily sorcery, per se.
It does raise the question of what genre a work would be in which was essentially an adventure story set in a "secondary world" or fictional world location. I can't think of a story of that type off the top of my head, but there is no reason one couldn't be written. I suppose, if you implied that magic existed in the world, then it could be S&S still, otherwise, it would be some sort of science fiction. Certainly if the setting was explcitly another planet it would be called Sword and Planet. | | Back to Top | | |
|
erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539
| Posted 8/21/2005 8:35 AM (GMT -5) | | But how much of an element do you need to make it S&S? Is it enough to just have a setting that reeks of possibilities beyond the normal? Are temples, priests and cults, superstitions treated as real, and the like enough for S&S to be present?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 8:25 AM (GMT -5) | | I'm interested to hear from S&S fans just what your thoughts are regarding the role of magic/supernatural/occult within S&S. Is it a prerequisite to the genre? Can there ever be a true S&S story without any element of the fantastical present? Or is it simply a limitation or even a hindrance to the field?
My personal opinion is that S&S needs that supernatural element as much as it needs good solid driving pace. Of course the term 'sorcery', like the term 'sword', merely highlights a general aspect of S&S; not every S&S tale needs a sorcerer just as not every tale requires a swordsman. But most any substitute you care to name, be that a mythical monster, a manifest god, a magical weapon or whathaveyou, seems to be present in most all S&S that I've read. In the few cases where an 'S&S' tale was lacking any of these things I've found it to be little more than a piece of historical fiction with made up names (there are exceptions as always). Frankly, if an S&S tale is not going to have any element of the fantastic in it, why write it?
Then again, maybe the mere fact of a constructed milieu and exotic locales is enough to satisfy the fantasy aspect of most readers. | | Back to Top | | |
| 35 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:27 PM (GMT -5)
There are a total of 84,597 posts in 6,892 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 17 new threads and 212 reply posts. View Active Threads
| | Who's Online | This forum has 1307 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, David Cohen.
21 Guest(s), 2 Registered Member(s) are currently online. Details
T A Markitan, Shade53 |
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP2
dotNetBB © 2000-2008
(c) SFReader |
|
|
|