|
|
|
|
|
| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > S&S without the sorcery | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
erazmus
Master
      
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/22/2005 7:19 PM (GMT -4) |   | Andy,
Thanks, but with my budget and temperment I just wait until I hunt it down in a local used book store. We have several great ones here (Colorado Springs) and I seldom have to wait more than a few months to find what I'm looking for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
 |
AndyBow
Acolyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 267
| Posted 8/23/2005 8:07 AM (GMT -4) | | Michael, I noticed that abebooks.com has some of the Dreamland trade paperbacks for $4-6 or so. Also, it usually costs about $2-3 for shipping (however, no tax). This might be a good backup for you if your local book stores don't have some of the books.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org | | Back to Top | | |
|
baritsu6
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 122
| Posted 10/16/2005 4:53 AM (GMT -4) | | i have some dreamlands for sale [ very good condition] let me know [ i am reducing my shell space] the price will be fair , if anyone is interested---regards, ralph
ralph grasso | | Back to Top | | |
|
Gil
Stablehand
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 10/21/2005 7:18 AM (GMT -4) | | I have been considering the various arguments in this thread for some time now. It’s been a fantastic discussion. I wonder if Erazmus’ comments about Professor Challenger and the “weak” protagonists preferred by Lovecraft haven’t identified something critical to the genre. Sword and Sorcery protagonists tend to be decisive and lean toward physical action. Is this characteristic more important than sorcery?
As an example of the point, I’m trying to make, please consider Howard’s Lamb’s Viking story in the first issue of Flashing Swords. This is a purely historical setting. I didn’t notice any supernatural elements but it still feels like sword and sorcery.
To put it another way, if a Conan story depicted purely mundane action (no sorcery or fantastical monsters) in which he rescued a woman from a powerful warlord, would it still be sword and sorcery?
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story “sword and sorcery”?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
AndyBow
Acolyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 267
| Posted 10/21/2005 9:40 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by Gil
I have been considering the various arguments in this thread for some time now. It’s been a fantastic discussion. I wonder if Erazmus’ comments about Professor Challenger and the “weak” protagonists preferred by Lovecraft haven’t identified something critical to the genre. Sword and Sorcery protagonists tend to be decisive and lean toward physical action. Is this characteristic more important than sorcery?
As an example of the point, I’m trying to make, please consider Howard’s Lamb’s Viking story in the first issue of Flashing Swords. This is a purely historical setting. I didn’t notice any supernatural elements but it still feels like sword and sorcery.
To put it another way, if a Conan story depicted purely mundane action (no sorcery or fantastical monsters) in which he rescued a woman from a powerful warlord, would it still be sword and sorcery?
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story “sword and sorcery”?
Welcome to the group, Gil.
To clarify my actual thoughts in this area, first let me correct one thing in your post. The author of the Viking story was Harold Lamb, not Howard (you were probably thinking ahead to your comments about Robert E. Howard (REH)). Actually, you were close to the fact that Lamb was one of the early writers who did influence REH's writing.
Using the Grand Master, REH, as an example, he wrote many historical adventure stories (which we at the sword-and-sorcery site, http://www.swordandsorcery.org/ , call "swashbuckling historicals"). These stories involved Vikings (not to be confused with Lamb's), Crusaders, and other adventurers in a predominately sword-oriented society but without any sorcery of any kind. These had the same fast-paced, action-oriented style as his Conan tales, but are not considered sword-and-sorcery --- just great historical action tales.
I've reviewed some of these types of histroical swashbucklers in my Forgotten Stories column, such as: the Falcon series http://www.swordandsorcery.org/swordsmen-falcon1.asp ;
and the Casca series (the only "sorcery" or supernatural element in this series is that Casca is a type of immortal soldier) http://www.swordandsorcery.org/swordsmen-casca.asp .
About your theoretical question about a non-sorcery Conan tale (which I don't think has been written yet) --- if I was making a list of sword-and-sorcery stories, I would include this non-sorcery Conan story only because it's part of a series that is otherwise totally sword-and-sorcery.
To see how interchangeable the sword-and-sorcery genre is with the swashbuckling historical, when L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter were editing and writing the Conan series back in the 1960s and 70s, they'd take an REH swashbuckling historical, which may even have occurred in modern times (1930s), and change the hero's name to Conan, add some sorcerous elements and some minor sections, and turn it into a Conan story. Marvel comics in the 70s and on would do a similar thing in their Conan comics.
To sum it up, in my opinion, the only difference between a sword-and-sorcery tale and an historical swashbuckler is whether the story has any sorcery in it.
Go to the Flashing Swords Guidelines by Howard Jones (yeah, another Howard -- just to make it more confusing [;)] !), and scroll down toward the bottom for more info in this area http://www.swordandsorcery.org/guidelines.asp .
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org | | Back to Top | | |
|
Gil
Stablehand
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 10/21/2005 10:37 AM (GMT -4) | | Thanks Andy,
Your comments are both interesting and educational.I have always enjoyed sword and sorcery, but it is only relatively recently that I have begun to think seriously about what distinguishes this genre from others.
It seems to me that S&S is a component of a fantasy core that initially attracted myself and many of my friends to fantasy literature, but which has largely dropped out of the fantasy short fiction market. The basic western medieval fantasy, usually, but not necessarily, with magic and/or fantasy creatures, makes up another portion of that "missing" fantasy core.
I confess it doesn't really make sense to me that these "traditional" fantasies have dropped out of many markets. There is clearly interest out there or else publishers would not be printing numerous novels in these areas each year. But big name magazines such as F&SF and Realms of Fantasy tend to keep their distance from the traditional approach.
By the way, thank you for catching my error in recording Harold Lamb's name. It's embarrassing, but as I often race off to look up works I see on this forum, I would hate to be responsible for sending someone else in the wrong direction.
Also by the way, your reviews were well worth reading and I strongly recommend anyone else reading this thread to follow your links to them. Thanks for bringing them to my attention. | | Back to Top | | |
|
AndyBow
Acolyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 267
| Posted 10/21/2005 4:06 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by Gil
Thanks Andy,
Your comments are both interesting and educational.I have always enjoyed sword and sorcery, but it is only relatively recently that I have begun to think seriously about what distinguishes this genre from others.
It seems to me that S&S is a component of a fantasy core that initially attracted myself and many of my friends to fantasy literature, but which has largely dropped out of the fantasy short fiction market. The basic western medieval fantasy, usually, but not necessarily, with magic and/or fantasy creatures, makes up another portion of that "missing" fantasy core.
I confess it doesn't really make sense to me that these "traditional" fantasies have dropped out of many markets. There is clearly interest out there or else publishers would not be printing numerous novels in these areas each year. But big name magazines such as F&SF and Realms of Fantasy tend to keep their distance from the traditional approach.
By the way, thank you for catching my error in recording Harold Lamb's name. It's embarrassing, but as I often race off to look up works I see on this forum, I would hate to be responsible for sending someone else in the wrong direction.
Also by the way, your reviews were well worth reading and I strongly recommend anyone else reading this thread to follow your links to them. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.
Gil, if you haven't already, read the numerous topics in this Discussion Group for many ideas on this and related subjects.
Also, reading the various topics in the sword-and-sorcery site, http://www.swordandsorcery.org/ , is also very informative, and enjoyable.
Thanks for the kudos on my reviews. I created the Forgotten Stories column to inform readers about some of the stories from the past that I recommend and that haven't been reprinted since then.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org | | Back to Top | | |
|
baritsu6
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 122
| Posted 10/22/2005 8:55 AM (GMT -4) | | members,the thread to me is very interesting---andy and howard give great ideas on what sword and sorcery should be. many individuals do not understand why they like howard's writings and then go out and read other s and s authors and are not satisfied. the answer eluded me for a bit, it turned [ imho] out it was darkness, noir. you can have a decent sword and sorcery story and for what it is worth , without the darkness it is not thrilling enough. this is why howards historicals are good and why with a magian, demon or lost race thrown into them , they become sword and sorcery. howard just had that knack. other pulp genres had writers that had noir, darkness----1]hero type [ the spider] norvell page2] westerns 1]gordon sherrifths 2] h.a. derosso 3] phillip ketchum --mystery--hammett, cain and others---i can easily be kept awake late at night reading these guys that are not s and s because of the way the story is written , not the genre----so even if a story falls in howard jones excellent criteria for s and s , to me it lacks tha dark, noir feeling that howard gave when SPUN A YARN.------REGARDS, RALPH
ralph grasso | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 10/22/2005 9:00 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by Gil
I have been considering the various arguments in this thread for some time now. It's been a fantastic discussion. I wonder if Erazmus' comments about Professor Challenger and the "weak" protagonists preferred by Lovecraft haven't identified something critical to the genre. Sword and Sorcery protagonists tend to be decisive and lean toward physical action. Is this characteristic more important than sorcery?
As an example of the point, I'm trying to make, please consider Howard's Lamb's Viking story in the first issue of Flashing Swords. This is a purely historical setting. I didn't notice any supernatural elements but it still feels like sword and sorcery.
To put it another way, if a Conan story depicted purely mundane action (no sorcery or fantastical monsters) in which he rescued a woman from a powerful warlord, would it still be sword and sorcery?
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story "sword and sorcery"?
Good questions. I think a lot of this discussion boils down to the fact that the term 'sorcery' is not a definite term. Everyone can identify an action-oriented story, the Sword aspect, from a mile off; but a story about magic is always going to be hard to define simply due to the nebulous nature of the fantastic. I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but I think it's important to discuss just what is meant when we use the term 'sorcery.' For me the term denotes weirdness. Stories that can evoke the weird, the unknown in a semi-tangible form are at the core of the fantasy form. The process behind the weird is not relevant. The way in which the protagonists handle their coming face to face with the weird is.
Does this mean decisive and physical action? Absolutely! It's the reason I love S&S, and I wouldn't have it any other way. As to whether this characteristic is more important to S&S than the sorcery aspect, I think that's a moot point. They're two sides of the same coin. And it's precisely the clash between the two opposites I feel, that intrigues me so much.
I would agree with Andy on the Lamb example. Lamb's writing reminds me of a Howard tale, not necessarily a S&S tale. The simple fact that Howard is so inextricably tied up in the S&S form inevitably rubs off on Lamb, whose style is so similar. That does raise an interesting point, though. How much of S&S is ultimately reliant on style? When we read a Conan story, or a Kane story, or an Elric story, how much are we are being influenced by the way in which it is told versus the actual content? If I were to read a Conan story without any hint of the weird in it I would still probably consider it an S&S tale. Why? I'm not sure. Power of the brandname maybe. Subconsciously I'm aware that what I am reading is part of a greater whole, a world wherein the magic is real, were I to look for it. Replace the name 'Conan' with 'Richard the Lionheart' though, and the magic is gone.
Could the non-modern setting added to an action-oriented decisive protagonist be enough to make a story "sword and sorcery"? Not on its own. But then brandnames and tropes don't just extend to the protagonists. I've no doubt that a story set in a fictional city, populated by thieves, barbarians, merchants, priests; with ancient temples, rowdy taverns, bustling fleamarkets; medieval soldiery and arcane sects would evoke enough of that all-powerful D&D atmosphere to be safely termed Sword and Sorcery, even were it to not have a single shred of magic in it beyond that point.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 10/22/2005 9:16 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by baritsu6
members,the thread to me is very interesting---andy and howard give great ideas on what sword and sorcery should be. many individuals do not understand why they like howard's writings and then go out and read other s and s authors and are not satisfied. the answer eluded me for a bit, it turned [ imho] out it was darkness, noir. you can have a decent sword and sorcery story and for what it is worth , without the darkness it is not thrilling enough. this is why howards historicals are good and why with a magian, demon or lost race thrown into them , they become sword and sorcery. howard just had that knack. other pulp genres had writers that had noir, darkness----1]hero type [ the spider] norvell page2] westerns 1]gordon sherrifths 2] h.a. derosso 3] phillip ketchum --mystery--hammett, cain and others---i can easily be kept awake late at night reading these guys that are not s and s because of the way the story is written , not the genre----so even if a story falls in howard jones excellent criteria for s and s , to me it lacks tha dark, noir feeling that howard gave when SPUN A YARN.
I'm not sure I totally agree with this, but I see your point. A lot of Leiber's S&S was not really dark, but it was consistently weird. Same with Vance, CAS, Moore and several others. Howard wrote dark whatever the genre. I think though, this comes down to readability. Some readers just prefer certain writers over others. I prefer Deighton over Fleming, but I still recognize them as top-notch writers of spy thrillers.
S&S is certainly defined by its style, to a degree. But what about beyond that? When you get down to it is S&S really just historical fiction with a monster crammed into it? | | Back to Top | | |
| 35 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:57 AM (GMT -4)
There are a total of 80,259 posts in 6,342 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 29 new threads and 123 reply posts. View Active Threads
| | Who's Online | This forum has 1221 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, tomo99.
20 Guest(s), 1 Registered Member(s) are currently online. Details
T A Markitan |
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP2
dotNetBB © 2000-2008
(c) SFReader |
|
|
|