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| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > S&S without the sorcery | Forum Quick Jump
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Jay Stevol
Neophyte
      
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:25 AM (GMT -4) |   | I'm interested to hear from S&S fans just what your thoughts are regarding the role of magic/supernatural/occult within S&S. Is it a prerequisite to the genre? Can there ever be a true S&S story without any element of the fantastical present? Or is it simply a limitation or even a hindrance to the field?
My personal opinion is that S&S needs that supernatural element as much as it needs good solid driving pace. Of course the term 'sorcery', like the term 'sword', merely highlights a general aspect of S&S; not every S&S tale needs a sorcerer just as not every tale requires a swordsman. But most any substitute you care to name, be that a mythical monster, a manifest god, a magical weapon or whathaveyou, seems to be present in most all S&S that I've read. In the few cases where an 'S&S' tale was lacking any of these things I've found it to be little more than a piece of historical fiction with made up names (there are exceptions as always). Frankly, if an S&S tale is not going to have any element of the fantastic in it, why write it?
Then again, maybe the mere fact of a constructed milieu and exotic locales is enough to satisfy the fantasy aspect of most readers. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:35 AM (GMT -4) | | But how much of an element do you need to make it S&S? Is it enough to just have a setting that reeks of possibilities beyond the normal? Are temples, priests and cults, superstitions treated as real, and the like enough for S&S to be present?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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trey
Neophyte
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 72
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:38 AM (GMT -4) | | I think mostly, there would need to be some sort of fantastic element, though not neccessarily sorcery, per se.
It does raise the question of what genre a work would be in which was essentially an adventure story set in a "secondary world" or fictional world location. I can't think of a story of that type off the top of my head, but there is no reason one couldn't be written. I suppose, if you implied that magic existed in the world, then it could be S&S still, otherwise, it would be some sort of science fiction. Certainly if the setting was explcitly another planet it would be called Sword and Planet. | | Back to Top | | |
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Red Viper
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 439
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:51 AM (GMT -4) | | Mike asked how much of a supernatural element is necessary to make a sword-and-sorcery story a sword-and-sorcery story. To me, the essence is that the supernatural represents the unknown. If a fantasy world is dripping with magic, so much so that its inhabitants give it little more thought than we give the weather, then you haven't caught the spirit of sword-and-sorcery, at least to my thinking. When you introduce magic, monsters, curses, strange lands, spirits, etc. that go beyond the "norm" for your characters, then you've hit on the right amount. Traditionally, heroic fantasy pits its heroes against the great unknown, whatever that may be. The heroes, braver tan most or forced by circumstances not faced by others, must confront that unknown -- and they don't always triumph.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Others?
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble
Fantasy writer with stories appearing soon in "Flashing Swords" and "Amazing Journeys Magazine" | | Back to Top | | |
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Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 9:56 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
But how much of an element do you need to make it S&S? Is it enough to just have a setting that reeks of possibilities beyond the normal? Are temples, priests and cults, superstitions treated as real, and the like enough for S&S to be present?
Mike
I think an S&S tale needs to have something beyond the ordinary, something that differentiates it fundamentally from the real world. Simply substituting place names, countries, etc for made up ones, or swapping a rampaging elephant for a rampaging oliphaunt is not enough IMO. In fact it strikes me as somewhat pointless. As for merely hinting at things beyond the ordinary, I think that's totally acceptable provided it makes something of an impact to the main plot. Leiber's 'Claws From the Night' for instance had very little supernatural in it save a passing remark to do with a bird-like goddess and a moment towards the end. Yet it is undoubtedly a prime example of S&S. Its unusual threat, its mysterious sense of the supernatural, and yes, its exotic location, all contributed towards the 'sorcery' aspect. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/21/2005 10:06 AM (GMT -4) | | I don't believe that S&S requires a 'made up' setting. It just requires magic operating on some level and a certain lack of sophisticated technology. Solomon Kane? Africa is a very real place though Solomon's is a bit different than most people find ours.
I think that if the supernatural is assumed real that that is enough, assuming everything else fits. Like obsenity I know S&S when I see it.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 10:06 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by Red Viper
To me, the essence is that the supernatural represents the unknown. If a fantasy world is dripping with magic, so much so that its inhabitants give it little more thought than we give the weather, then you haven't caught the spirit of sword-and-sorcery, at least to my thinking. When you introduce magic, monsters, curses, strange lands, spirits, etc. that go beyond the "norm" for your characters, then you've hit on the right amount. Traditionally, heroic fantasy pits its heroes against the great unknown, whatever that may be. The heroes, braver tan most or forced by circumstances not faced by others, must confront that unknown -- and they don't always triumph.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Many of the Conan stories, when deconstructed and analyzed, could be said to be quasi-SF tales. 'Rogues in the House' had a monster that could have come straight out of another Conan, Conan Doyle's, 'The Lost World'. Yet hints of otherworldly sorcery, or were-creatures and other weirdness were perfectly hinted at to give the overall feel of a world beyond the ordinary.
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/21/2005 10:24 AM (GMT -4) | | Many of the elements that make up a S&S story are also present in a Mythos story, yet there are very few stories that clearly fit both catagories. In fact if you accept some of the definitions sometimes put forth by adherints of each type of fiction there are none. Those definitions being something like "a story that reads like a badly written Howardian pastiche is S&S, whilst a Mythos story must read like a badly written Lovecraftian pastiche!"
Of course such a definition would be bull____. Just as it takes more than a hero in a loincloth with a sword and a villan in ornate robes to make a story S&S, it also takes less. Its almost an attitude. If Doyle's professor Challenger were less a scientist and more a freeboooting mercinary, and with a few less guns, _The Lost World_ could be an S&S story. Certainly a story set in exactly the same place, featuring a conquistidore, could be.
I think its important that we don't define the genre into a corner. Genre's are big spaces, really. Lots of room in the tent. Otherwise we rapidly approach the headspace of exclusion, where anything different doesn't fit. When that is acceptable the genre's dead-no new stuff, just rehashes of the old stuff.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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nikolai
Stablehand
Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 8/21/2005 10:37 AM (GMT -4) | | | There's a literary genre called the "fantastic", which isn't fantasy as we would understand it - but has elements which could be interpreted as either natural or supernatural. An example is the ghost story "The Turn of the Screw", the ghosts could be real or they could just in the minds of the characters. I think you could certainly do a S&S story like this, walking the thin line between realism and magic, where both explainations could be possible. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/21/2005 10:44 AM (GMT -4) | | Nickolai,
Yes, or better still, where both explanations are unimportant. You managed to cut off its head, who acres if the monster was a prehistoric throwback, a sorcerously summoned being or a radioactive mutant? What difference does it make? Unless the writer decides to make it make a difference it won't.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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Red Viper
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 439
| Posted 8/21/2005 11:20 AM (GMT -4) | | Quoting Mike: I think its important that we don't define the genre into a corner. Genre's are big spaces, really. Lots of room in the tent. Otherwise we rapidly approach the headspace of exclusion, where anything different doesn't fit. When that is acceptable the genre's dead-no new stuff, just rehashes of the old stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen, brother!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble
Fantasy writer with stories appearing soon in "Flashing Swords" and "Amazing Journeys Magazine" | | Back to Top | | |
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Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 5:04 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by nikolai
There's a literary genre called the "fantastic", which isn't fantasy as we would understand it - but has elements which could be interpreted as either natural or supernatural. An example is the ghost story "The Turn of the Screw", the ghosts could be real or they could just in the minds of the characters. I think you could certainly do a S&S story like this, walking the thin line between realism and magic, where both explainations could be possible.
quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Yes, or better still, where both explanations are unimportant. You managed to cut off its head, who acres if the monster was a prehistoric throwback, a sorcerously summoned being or a radioactive mutant? What difference does it make? Unless the writer decides to make it make a difference it won't.
I'm a big fan of the old horror classics. 'The Willows' and 'Turn of the Screw' are both epitomies of subtle supernatural horror at its very finest, perfectly capturing a sense of the world we know shimmering ever upon another deeper world of the weird.
I'm not sure if the type of writing that made these stories so powerful - where hints are built up slowly like a simmering pot of soup - lends itself well to the relatively short and snappy S&S form though. Rather, I think the ambiguity of these tales could definitely be employed more. The supernatural is, after all, the unknown. It is by its nature boundless and not subject to the whims of convention. What may be real and merely psychological is often irrelevant and blurred to the protagonists as regards the furthering of the plot. As erazmus says, casual explanations cheapen the experience and often add little to the plot when all's said and done.
A more mature approach to the weird is certainly something to strive for, IMO. Much of the best S&S I've read has been characterized by a subtle and deft handling of the unknown (in whatever form that may be) and the protagonist's subsequent responses to that, and I certainly think it's assinine to try and categorically define just what form of the weird is acceptable or just what percentage must be present within every S&S tale to 'fulfil the quotient'. Certainly not what I was implying with this thread.
I do, however, think it's interesting to discuss just what role the weird has within S&S beyond the mere token wizard/troll/hypermcguffin level. Is it only ever to be used as the cool factor to draw in the readers? Or does it share a deeper place within the core of the S&S form, as inextricably linked to the writing as are driving pace and action? While I realize that there will always be a certain inherent brashness in the handling of supernatural within S&S, I certainly don't think that automatically relegates us to fireball throwing wizards and mundane cosmic beasties shunted out into the spotlight time and again like tired circus performers. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/21/2005 5:24 PM (GMT -4) | | I must admit I have a gripe with sub-sub catagory fiction markets. A little one, anyway. Narrowness of thought. Along with sword and sorcery I also love fiction of the Cthulu mythos. Reading much of what gets put out in this you'd think they were unrelated but I know better. Robert E. Howard, H.P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith were buds who exchanged ideas a great deal and it showed in their work both directly and indirectly. Smith is where the genres often overlap and he did more than just crib a few names and loan a couple of more to H.P.L.'s work. I think a writer could be no better served in either genre to use the essence of what works in one to enhance his efforts in another.
I wouldn't want to write like H.P. Lovecraft, his story telling style isn't particularly suited to todays readers and he seldom had much physical action. I love the situations he created and I've always wanted to do some work with similar situations only involving men of action. Rats in the Walls or Pickmans Model becomes very different if you involve a two fisted detective or hard boiled cop. The Call of Cthulhu told from the perspective of the soldiers and FBI men would be a heck of an action story.
Likewise I think his handling of the arcane would work in a Sword and Sorcery setting. The cult of B'Mouth or any of the great old ones, or a more Derlithian take on Ithaqua would be a wonderful antagaonist for a mighty thewed warrior or exiled wizard-king to deal with.
Unfortunatly while Flashing Swords would probably go for a well written piece like I mention above most of the "Lovecraftian" markets seem alergic to stories with a more kinetic take on dealing with the unknown. I seldom see a story like that in them and when I do its often by a 'bigger name' author they're lucky to get. I haven't been able to get the feel for the nineteen twenties and thirties style of story setting they seem to like and what I end up with smacks of Pastiche work in the worse way.
I'd love to see an anthology of stories combining the salient elements of the two catagories, S&S and 'Mythos', in one weird volume. _Swords against Shadows_, sort of.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 8/21/2005 6:08 PM (GMT -4) | | For me Lovecraft's stories worked so well precisely because the protagonist was a weak sensitive type of wildly imaginative disposition. Were he a macho man's man I think the stories would have lost a hell of a lot of their charm. Saying that, William Hope Hodgson often had some pretty tough main characters in his fiction, which was most decidedly proto-Lovecraftian. In 'House on the Borderland' when pig-fiends attack the man's house, instead of huddling in a corner praying for them to go away, he takes out his gun and barricades the house, whilst 'The Boats of the Glen Carrig' could almost be a S&S novella were it not for the stilted tone and principal emphasis on horror. So I agree it could definitely work.
CAS was great and all, but I sometimes felt his verbosity and word-play got in the way of the actual story. One better example I can think of who melded Lovecraftian horror with straight up S&S was C.L. Moore. Her Jirel of Joirey and Northwest Smith tales have some superb examples of otherworldly horror within them. One in particular that I recall (but not the name unfortunately) was a piece about an intercosmic being manifested as a whistling tree. Very weird stuff. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/21/2005 6:45 PM (GMT -4) | | Jay,
Yes C.L. Moore is a better example of what I'm trying to get at. And yes Lovecrafts protagonists do lend his work a certain charm all its own but heavens; bookish nerdy shut ins can't be the only people who ever encounter the edges of the old ones world!
I've never spend much time of Hodgson's work, I see I'll have to repair that deficientcy.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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AndyBow
Acolyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 267
| Posted 8/22/2005 3:51 PM (GMT -4) | | For some tales of heroes overcoming HPL creatures, try Brian Lumley's (of the Necroscope series fame) Titus Crow series of novels originally published in the early to late 70s, in order:
The Burrowers Beneath
The Transition Of Titus Crow
Clock Of Dreams
Spawn Of The Winds
In The Moons Of Borea
Elysia (also has Lumleey's Dreamland 2 adventurers in it (see below))
and The Compleat Crow (1987) (short stories).
These stories take place in contemporary times.
For s&s stories with HPL ceatures, Lumley wrote another series of novels about 2 contemporary adventurers who are transported to HPL's Dreamland (s&s setting), where they battle some of HPL's weird creations and even meet Randolph Carter (HPL's original Dreamland traveler), among others. In order:
Hero Of Dreams
Ship Of Dreams
Mad Moon Of Dreams
Elysia (also has Titus Crow in it)
Iced On Aran (short stories)
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/22/2005 4:30 PM (GMT -4) | | Andy,
Thanks a lot. I have heard of Lumley's S&S work but never really seen it. Now I have some titles to look for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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baritsu6
Neophyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 122
| Posted 8/22/2005 5:05 PM (GMT -4) | | andy, i remember khai of ancient khem [ lumley] being sword and sorcery--remember this?--ralph
ralph grasso | | Back to Top | | |
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2005 6:00 PM (GMT -4) | | I've got that one around here some place. It didn't grab me when I started, but I always meant to give it another shot.
This is a great thread. I'm slammed with the Lamb editing or I'd be here participating more often. I've got a nearly complete article on writing sword and sorcery--with Chris Hocking and Ryan Harvey-- that echoes some of what's said here and I'll look forward to discussing it with you all once I get a chance to punch it up a little.
Have any of you managed to catch the new animated series on Nickelodeon titled "The Last Air Bender?" Snazzzy little show with good writing, concept, and animation. long story arcs. Definitely sword and sorcery with a unique Asian flare.
Best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine | | Back to Top | | |
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Kuroboshii
Shogun
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 543
| Posted 8/22/2005 6:20 PM (GMT -4) | | Howard wrote: "with Chris Hocking and Ryan Harvey"
Do you mean John Hocking, Chris Heath, or someone else I haven't heard of [;)]?
Sean T. M. Stiennon (AKA Suuran Songforge)
For information about me, see my author page at www.sfreader.com/authors/seanstiennon. | | Back to Top | | |
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trey
Neophyte
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 72
| Posted 8/22/2005 6:21 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
Have any of you managed to catch the new animated series on Nickelodeon titled "The Last Air Bender?" Snazzzy little show with good writing, concept, and animation. long story arcs. Definitely sword and sorcery with a unique Asian flare.
I got it once by accident, but have been TiVo-ing episodes since then. It is a good show. I tend to think of it as wuxia-lite...but I suppose S&S with an Asian flare is apt.
My only complaint is that it would be better if it wwas done a little more "adult" (less cutesy animals for instance). | | Back to Top | | |
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2005 6:22 PM (GMT -4) | | John C. Hocking, aka Chris Hocking. Sorry about that.
Best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 8/22/2005 6:32 PM (GMT -4) | | I get a good deal of inspiration for my S&S from old 'historical fantasy' kung-fu movies. Thank god for the Wu Tang collection!
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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AndyBow
Acolyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 267
| Posted 8/22/2005 6:41 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by baritsu6
andy, i remember khai of ancient khem [ lumley] being sword and sorcery--remember this?--ralph
ralph grasso
Yeah, Ralph, I noticed it in my book database list but I was focusing more on HPL-s&s. As far as I can tell, Khai was his only other s&s other than the Dreamland tales.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org | | Back to Top | | |
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AndyBow
Acolyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 267
| Posted 8/22/2005 6:52 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Andy,
Thanks a lot. I have heard of Lumley's S&S work but never really seen it. Now I have some titles to look for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
Michael, for the Dreamlands s&s series, I recommend getting the trade paperback (1st edition) pub by Ganley (Weirdbook editor) from the mid- to late 80s. It contains some great interior art by Koszowski, Corbin, etc. Abebooks.com is one place to go.
Andy Beau,
columnist of Forgotten Stories of Fantastic Sword-fighters @
www.swordandsorcery.org | | Back to Top | | |
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