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| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > Favourite S&S tropes, cliches and conventions. | Forum Quick Jump
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nikolai
Stablehand
      
Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 11/6/2005 9:35 AM (GMT -5) |   | Okay everyone, what are your favourite S&S tropes, cliches and conventions?
I love it in the Conan stories where people call everyone else dogs or curs as an insult. I've also love stories which start off with the hero out for vengence after having been terribly wronged by the villain, you know the bad guy's going to be dead by the end of the story, but it's fun to see how it happen's. | | Back to Top | | |
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Shrews
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 237
| Posted 11/6/2005 10:13 AM (GMT -5) | | female assasins
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard | | Back to Top | | |
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Supr
Neophyte
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 107
| Posted 11/6/2005 12:07 PM (GMT -5) | | | Whores who give the S&S heroes pleasure for free | | Back to Top | | |
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Shrews
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 237
| Posted 11/6/2005 4:41 PM (GMT -5) | | I meant ot say I was weary of female assassins. Every RPG guy I know is a FEMALE ASSASSIN.
I got a smart ass joke about that if anyone wants to hear it...
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard | | Back to Top | | |
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Supr
Neophyte
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 107
| Posted 11/6/2005 5:40 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Shrews
I meant ot say I was weary of female assassins. Every RPG guy I know is a FEMALE ASSASSIN.
I got a smart ass joke about that if anyone wants to hear it...
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard
I don't have a wife so I can officially say yes [8D] | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539
| Posted 11/6/2005 5:48 PM (GMT -5) | | Overly muscular warrior hero types. Belive it or not, towering guys who weigh over three hundred pounds don't usually do all that well in mass combat, they stick out where you can see them and get ganged up on. But your average S&S hero, my own included, would fit in with most NFL linemen.
Its not that size isn't useful. But it isn't _that_ bloody useful!
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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Shrews
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 237
| Posted 11/7/2005 3:58 AM (GMT -5) | | I think these RPG guys who want to to be FEMALE ASSASSINS do so to spend time inside a woman's body because they spend so little real time inside a woman's body.
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 943
| Posted 11/7/2005 7:54 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Belive it or not, towering guys who weigh over three hundred pounds don't usually do all that well in mass combat, they stick out where you can see them and get ganged up on.
Mike
- Not trying to be arguementative here Mike but what are you basing that on? (Since Henery VIII was 6'5" and known as a monster on the tournament field [tournaments were infantry melees as well as jousting], Egil Skallagrimson, noted Viking and warleader, was so big they said he looked like a Troll. Of course there's the half-mythical 'Little John' and when they exhumed the bones from the grave that folklore said he was buried in they found the skeleton of a man of about 6'5".)
- A good Norman 'kite' shield does a fair job of protecting a tall man's lower legs while he throws an extra 25-60 pounds of weight into his weapons-work.
- Off the top of my head, most 'Warrior kings' I can think of were considered tall. Tall for their times anyway. Most weren't the 300 lb linebacker type but they rode, wrestled, and prepared for battle as both entertainment and obsession.
'God made men, Colonel Colt made men equil.'
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539
| Posted 11/7/2005 8:21 AM (GMT -5) | | Rob,
A couple of things. I kill lots of towering goon in SCA melees. I don't do that well in one on one foot tourneys against them, but in group combat they're often toast. Obviously the faster, more highly skilled ones are less often toast.
Two, Henry VIII was how tall? His armor in the tower of London would put him between 6'1" and 6'3". Large for the times, yes. Every guy that ever kicked a lot of ass on the field was suppose to be at least six and a half feet tall.
William the Marshall wasn't even six feet tall. He was probably the greatest fighting knight that ever lived.
I know that big makes it harder to last all day in the heat. At least half the people I've seen pulled off battlefields for things like heat prostration, dehydration, and chest pains have been very large guys. Big guys have to wear more heavy armor for the same protection and its not a straight curve. Leaving aside shields, because most S&S heros don't use them, a chainmail byrnie for a six and a half foot, thickset man weighs twenty percent more than one for a six foot tall heavy set man. It weighs twice what a byrnie for a five and a half foot fireplug of a guy does. If I was designing a hero who hit like a thunderbolt and could fight all day long, I'd make him about five eight and two twenty.
That's because the only guy I ever knew who could do that, fight all day, hit like a titan, party all night, do it again the next day, was about that size. Most of the really huge guys do real good for a while, then they fade in the late afternoon. They can be great after a little rest, but they do wear out.
JMHO
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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Shrews
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 237
| Posted 11/8/2005 5:13 AM (GMT -5) | | True points Michael.
I'm 6 foot 5 and 255 pounds.
I can clear out a tavern pretty well.
Ask Howard Jones if he thinks I look like I tire easily ;)
I wager even a dwarf gets tired after fighting all day, though. Then again, they don't have to pace themsevles for energy needed or expended getting drunk or getting laid...
Will SOMEONE roll the dice to see if I' m getting DRUNK????
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard | | Back to Top | | |
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PaulMc
Adept
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 992
| Posted 11/8/2005 5:35 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by nikolai
Okay everyone, what are your favourite S&S tropes, cliches and conventions?
Ruins. They always add a good creepy factor (if done correctly.)
-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net
"Queen of the Sepulcher" coming to The Sword Review, November 2005 | | Back to Top | | |
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Storn
Neophyte
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 153
| Posted 11/8/2005 7:15 AM (GMT -5) | | primitive tribes based loosely on some kinda animal analog. Looking at you ERB.
Visual Storytelling
http://www.stornc.rpggallery.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539
| Posted 11/8/2005 10:07 AM (GMT -5) | | Shrews,
There are some S&S stories where a wee fella like yourself stays back with the camels while the real men gets to the fighting. I rather specifically said 'over three hundred pounds'. 6' 5" and 255 is lean and mean compared to many heros, who would IMO have a heck of a time maintaining their mass on the adventures we follow them on.
Maybe my opinion is fueled by my own recent campaign to dwindle my size a bit. I'm down, from a high of 320 at 5'11" to a nice, manageable 235. I was never all that fat, well okay I was fat but not at 320. I was powerlifting at 320. I could really make things, and people, move then. I also felt every pound when out in the brush, hunting or hiking or (most especially) playing a good old fashioned game of capture the flag. Runing around, in the hills of West Virginia or the tundra of the Aleutian island, where I lived at the time, was a huge challenge compared to newer, lighter me.
Now as to combat in a straight up fight like a tavern brawl, which implies tavern, which implies town, food, sleep and shelter, I'd give my larger self a decided edge. I'll grant you that. Afer spending a week in an open ship, or hiking over trackless mountains for a couple of weeks, that I'm not so sure about.
I guess I'm just wondering why we see for few huge hero types with bad knees. I meet big guys all the time and the ones over thirty all seem to have bad knees. Or gout. Maintaining a profile off mass under heroic conditions ought to require quite a rich diet, which leads to gout. I think I'll give my next huge hero a touch of gout.
I haven't even touched on the problem a seven foot tall man weighing three hundred and eighty pounds has adjusting stirrup straps for his horse, or finding a descent cloak, or boots . . ..
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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CharlesR
Neophyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 64
| Posted 11/9/2005 12:15 PM (GMT -5) | | "I love it in the Conan stories where people call everyone else dogs or curs as an insult."
I just wrote a scene you'd love then, Nikolai. I was remembering the scene in "Hawks over Shem" from the Savage Sword of Conan adaptation, where the guy sees Conan following him and yells, "Why do you follow me, dog!" And Conan is like, "Who are you calling dog, you dog!"
So I had my barbarian character call some thieves he'd fallen out with dogs just for that reason.
Charles R | | Back to Top | | |
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Dragon Angel
Lord Dragon
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 1066
| Posted 11/9/2005 5:55 PM (GMT -5) | | I haven't even touched on the problem a seven foot tall man weighing three hundred and eighty pounds has adjusting stirrup straps for his horse, or finding a descent cloak, or boots .
Boots probably weren't too hard. Shoes weren't mass produced by children back then. They were custom made by a guy whose job it was to make shoes. Getting the right size would be trivial. I'm guessing the same was true of cloaks.
Imagine the poor horse trying to carry a 380 lb man plus armor! Probably happens in the same kind of story where the guy rides the horse for 8 hours straight at a full gallop, then parks it at an inn. Then flips a coin to a boy and says, "Fill 'er up."
Cliche: Howabout the thief that's so good that he can pickpocket anything off anybody and hide in shadows in full daylight on the top of a desert dune.
read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html | | Back to Top | | |
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Christopher_Heath
Eternal Champion
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1156
| Posted 11/10/2005 9:03 AM (GMT -5) | | My favorite cliche has got to be the anti-hero. Good guy types are okay, but I love a main character with a mean streak where there is always the chance he'll be up to some nastiness, and you have no idea what he'll do with a captured prisoner, or how he'll handle a thief he's caught trying to steal from him. Elric and Kane are prime examples. Oh, and Conan can be a prick from time to time as well.
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Christopher_Heath
Eternal Champion
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1156
| Posted 11/10/2005 9:11 AM (GMT -5) | | | Oh, on the argument if a heavier man is better in mass combat, I think it all comes down to skill and circumstance. If you have a huge giant of a man that can really dish out some damage but tires faster than a smaller man, well, then it would depend on if his soldiers were numerous and disciplined enough to cover for him when he needs a little rest. If he doesn't have that, then a smaller fighter of equal skill but greater stamina would be better for the situation, even though he probably wouldn't have as many kills. I think this is one of those "what if?" questions that has no definite answer and could vary depending on circumstance. I offered one example how the advantage might sway from one to the other depending on circumstance. I'm sure there are a thousand more. | | Back to Top | | |
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Raph
Stubborn Scholar
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 260
| Posted 11/10/2005 8:25 PM (GMT -5) | | I think that the cliche' of the large, unintelligent fighter and the small, intelligent sidekick is one that's been waiting to be turned on it's ear for some time now. How about a large, muscular man who's intelligent, but no good at fighting, and a small, not-too bright partner who really kicks ass? Might have to get around to writing that one day.
Mike O. | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 943
| Posted 11/10/2005 9:03 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Rob,
A couple of things. I kill lots of towering goon in SCA melees. I don't do that well in one on one foot tourneys against them, but in group combat they're often toast. Obviously the faster, more highly skilled ones are less often toast.
Two, Henry VIII was how tall? His armor in the tower of London would put him between 6'1" and 6'3". Large for the times, yes. Every guy that ever kicked a lot of ass on the field was suppose to be at least six and a half feet tall.
William the Marshall wasn't even six feet tall. He was probably the greatest fighting knight that ever lived.
I know that big makes it harder to last all day in the heat. At least half the people I've seen pulled off battlefields for things like heat prostration, dehydration, and chest pains have been very large guys. Big guys have to wear more heavy armor for the same protection and its not a straight curve. Leaving aside shields, because most S&S heros don't use them, a chainmail byrnie for a six and a half foot, thickset man weighs twenty percent more than one for a six foot tall heavy set man. It weighs twice what a byrnie for a five and a half foot fireplug of a guy does. If I was designing a hero who hit like a thunderbolt and could fight all day long, I'd make him about five eight and two twenty.
That's because the only guy I ever knew who could do that, fight all day, hit like a titan, party all night, do it again the next day, was about that size. Most of the really huge guys do real good for a while, then they fade in the late afternoon. They can be great after a little rest, but they do wear out.
JMHO
Mike
- I've read Henery's height at 6'5" (If you've seen it at 6'1, that's fine- I'm too lazy to look up sources right now for comparason.)
- SCA melees are not real battles. They are closer than nearly all modern folks will come to a real battle. But without live steel, blood, debilitating desease, and ignorance, and especially real gut wrenching fear and murderous rage, they're not going to be real (even if they are exiting, exhausting, and instructive.)
- Killing SCA goons would not be like killing real warriors. SCA knights would be better trained than most iron age warriors- many of who were conscripts and fought only a couple of battles in their life) and not nearly as well trained as iron age knights who could put a lance-tip through a moving man's throat while riding at a full gallop and really did have quite a few grappling techniques they used.
- Carry-weight is relitive to body weight. Ever see a 95 lb soldier as a military 'morterman'? 95 lb person carrying 95 lbs of baseplate and morter rounds = disaster. Now 180+ lb man carrying 95 lbs of baseplate and morter rounds = standard US Morterman. (And they do have to lug that load, through the heat, 20+ miles in training. For brute strength, bigger is better. This is, of course, why there are weight classes in combative sports. No matter how quick and slippery a Bantem weight boxer is, he won't have the brut weight and strength to KO someone a foot taller and 80 lbs heavier.
- Marshal was at least one of the most popular Knights that ever lived. And no idiot, he knew that the English army was worth more to the country than the crown jewels. He is also certainly the greatest battle trainer the English ever produced. The greatest fighter? Ever? Who could tell?
- I've never heard any medical reports saying that height = problems with the weather. Overweight, out of condition, or unacclamated from working in nice, air conditioned offices are more likely the modern reasons for heat sickness.
- My experience when training up for 'Desert Storm' in 110+ degree heat, was that soldiers over 35 went down (even when well conditioned) and likewise, anyone who had the pull to get hold of icewater (instead of tepid canteen water) was going to hit the sand.
- I've known lots of bad-a$$ little guys who would take on anyone/anysize. They win because they're mean and they don't play the big guy's game.
What if they run into a much bigger guy who's just as rough and ruthless? Well, like I said, in some things, size is an advantage.
Then again, there's always running away and the ol' Sergeantmajor always said, 'If you beat 'em in a foot race- you beat 'em'.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 943
| Posted 11/10/2005 9:11 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Heath
Oh, on the argument if a heavier man is better in mass combat, I think it all comes down to skill and circumstance. . . . I think this is one of those "what if?" questions that has no definite answer and could vary depending on circumstance.
- I certainly agree. There are so many variables. Each story must be judged by how well the author uses his character's +&- 's. Even wearing armor- a major plus in most iron age combat- can be simply turned against a fighter by having the story move him into a marsh.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 943
| Posted 11/10/2005 9:25 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Heath
My favorite cliche has got to be the anti-hero. Good guy types are okay, but I love a main character with a mean streak where there is always the chance he'll be up to some nastiness, and you have no idea what he'll do with a captured prisoner, or how he'll handle a thief he's caught trying to steal from him. Elric and Kane are prime examples. Oh, and Conan can be a prick from time to time as well.
- Yes, anti-heroes can be fun. For me, my favorite is a character like Conan who's willing to play dirtier than the bad guy but has his own moral code.
- I mean, why should the good guy play fair? So he can be a nice role model for the kiddies back home? No- no- no- no- I like to see a hero who can out-scheem the bad guys and steal the gold, the girl, and the bad guys' shorts while they're in the privy waiting for someone to hand them a fist full of leaves.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2336
| Posted 11/11/2005 9:09 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
I mean, why should the good guy play fair? So he can be a nice role model for the kiddies back home? No- no- no- no- I like to see a hero who can out-scheem the bad guys and steal the gold, the girl, and the bad guys' shorts while they're in the privy waiting for someone to hand them a fist full of leaves.
Rob
Odysseus.
My favorite fantasy hero.
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