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erazmus
Master
      
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/20/2005 12:53 PM (GMT -4) |   | James, I'd have reccomended that one as well, but I don't have a copy! All in good time. And that Occult reference was by John Michael Greer.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/21/2005 8:45 PM (GMT -4) | | Oops that occult reference was in another thread[:D]
Another way of achieving a non-medival setting is much closer to home. Use the method that Adams used in his Horseclans books or Vance in the Dying Earth stories, a post apocalyptic earth setting. That's as good as sword and planet and the setting need not be more than your own home town. The sorcery angle's a bit more complicated but need not be, the Derlithian outsiders made their presence known during the appocalyps and there you are, dark gods, wicked acolyts, people of many colors all in the same region, plus the bonus of ancient technology. Flying ships, hero's with swords, wizards with strange powers and the ancient city of Den'ver. Better than Carter's lemuria, that one.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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JMP
Stablehand
Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 7/25/2005 12:53 PM (GMT -4) | | Hm... maybe someone should reprint both these handy books in an omnibus edition? They'd fit nicely into a modern trade paperback.
JMP("Poseidonis")
James M. Pfundstein | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/25/2005 4:40 PM (GMT -4) | | James,
As far as I know all the DeCamp books mentioned are in print, and you couldn't combine the _Anient Engineers_ with anything, it's quite a tome. Thats the only one I have but I suspect thats true of the others.
The Barnes and Nobles cheap section and used book stores are my reserch libraries best friends. I'd use the public library more but the fines usually add up to more, over time, than a cheap copy of an every day reference.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 892
| Posted 7/26/2005 7:55 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by davidolson22
Good point. I guess I worry though that if I don't try to stay as accurate as possible, that the story will have a pseudo-medieval feel to it. Also, the important parts for me would be less the technology and more the cultural norms. I can never seem to find good references on that. Much easier to learn what weapons they used, what they ate for breakfast, or what color women dyed their hair.
- Historical Fiction/Fantasy is a sticky trap of its own. Either you write a modern story then fill it with 'bits of history' to foist off as a 'Historical Fiction/Fantasy', or you do your research and find yourself caught in the vast, Celtic Knot of history that can draw you into its twining embrace for decades.
- I watched a program where they interviewed about 8 well known 'Historical' authors and they all said the same thing, "Write the story/ then do the research'.
- From a business point-of-view I'm sure that they are correct. Once the artistic portion is done, editing in different names, locations or bits of equipment is simple.
- From the Point-of-view of writing about real History-- well it's not quite so simple as that. Different people of different times and locations simply have completely different social mores. They have different motovations. They have different needs.
- Authors just can't take, let's say a Northern hunting story and set it in Iron Age Iraq. I mean, they can but it would be complete fantasy. And, if they're a good enough writer, they may have just polluted people's perception of History (More than it already is.)
- I would encourage people too keep the quickie-research for fantasy stories. It can add a great deal of color. Real Historical Fiction/Fantasy demands a little more time & effort.
- As you pointed out, researching culture takes a lot more time. I think it's worth it, even for a fantasy story. But then, I don't have to make a living off how many stories I can turn out so I have the time to be picky. (I just spent about three years researching & writing a Norse S&S story and when I began I thought I already knew the subject -insert laughing at myself-)
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/26/2005 8:05 AM (GMT -4) | | Thanks Rob; good points all. Welcome to the forum!
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/26/2005 8:44 AM (GMT -4) | | Rob,
I definatly am for S&S over historical. S&S needs reserch too. I hate it when an author gets something wrong, technically, with something going on in his story. I hate it when a bronzesmith is equipted with the same set up a ninteenth century blacksmith would be, in a fantasy setting, only he's hammering bronze. Arrgh! Needs a different set up entirely. I use my reserch in fantasy to get the details right. The story may take place in another world or a lost age of history but steel is steel, sheep are sheep and water better flow down hill.
I've written an alternate history story, my first sale, and I was careful with the details. My work was made easier with my venue, lots of researchers to help me out. I stayed away from things I didn't have time to get right. I do the same in my fantasy stories, at least when I'm successful.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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William King
Stablehand
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/26/2005 9:39 AM (GMT -4) | | Personally I think story first, research second is an utterly sound premise in almost any genre.
I don't read S&S in order to find out about early bronze age smithing- I read it for interesting characters doing exciting things in an exotic setting. I can fully understand that if you are an expert in a given field seeing mistakes might easily puncture your willing suspension of disbelief but for myself when I imaginatively enter a world that has sorcery, alternate history, alien races, demons and a bunch of other stuff I can usually rationalize a few cultural errors. Quite often I simply don't spot them.
Yes, sheep should be sheep, steel should be steel and water better flow downhill unless there's an elemental pushing it in the other direction. Equally if you want to dot the i's and cross the t's in your historical research, more power to you. I don't think its an absolute requirement however. For me, research will always come a long way behind good storytelling.
All the best,
Bill | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 892
| Posted 7/26/2005 10:06 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
Thanks Rob; good points all. Welcome to the forum!
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine
Thanks,
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/26/2005 10:07 AM (GMT -4) | | Bill,
Oh, ayeh, storytelling better come first if I'm telling a story. Truth, it comes first even if I'm writing an article or an essay. The structure of the tale , the pacing, the plot, thats whats going to sell the story and thats what will lead to a story's sale. But I hate it when I'm reading a perfectly good story and get thrown out by some stupid detail that I know and the author didn't and I don't want that happening in my work. If the viewpoint is omnicient it should be right.
I'll give you an example, with out naming names though I belive everyone here will know what I'm speaking about. (I'm just too darn lazy to look up and cite right now.)
I read recently, in a pub much beloved by me now, a viking story. In this story the viking was sailing around the lands that later europeans would refer to as the New World. He sailed in Hudson bay. Hudson bay!. Five hundred years before Hudson, his bay is sailed in and refered too. Drove me nuts and incidentally right out of the story.
I'm sure the natives had a name for that bay. I'm sure the northmen in the story could have had their own name for it. I'm sure I would have said it differently. If it had been my story, and I've written worse believe me, I'd have wanted the editor to make me change it before it saw print. That probably would mean a few days in the library to find that alternate name but it would have been worth it to me.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 892
| Posted 7/26/2005 10:14 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
I've written an alternate history story, my first sale, and I was careful with the details. My work was made easier with my venue, lots of researchers to help me out. I stayed away from things I didn't have time to get right. I do the same in my fantasy stories, at least when I'm successful.
Mike
'You can always see further standing upon another man's shoulders'.
- Not having the time to learn dozens of ancient languages or dig up lost cities ourselves tapping other's expertice is the only way I've found to research.
- I tend to do the same thing. Just don't mention 'it' if I know nothing about 'it'. If it's something I HAVE to use then I have to take the rest of the knowledge I've gained about the culture in question and say, 'what would they do', as opposed to what would I do'. This makes for less 'kinder, gentler' stories but I think it's closer to reality.
(What was your Alt/Hist story?)
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/26/2005 10:29 AM (GMT -4) | | Rob,
With my wife, Deann Allen, I wrote "An American Past Time" which appeared in _Ring of Fire_ an anthology of stories taking place in the world of Eric Flint's 1632, from Baen books. Everything in the antho is cannon and my characters I invented went on to bigger and better things without me.
My story is about baseball, cultures merging and how leasure time is viewed in the new United States of Europe postilated in these books. The series now has several volume with a new one coming out this month.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 892
| Posted 7/26/2005 10:47 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by William King
Personally I think story first, research second is an utterly sound premise in almost any genre.
//Quite often I simply don't spot them.
// For me, research will always come a long way behind good storytelling.
- Well now see here we differ. I'm the type of miserable b@$t@#d that gaggs when he see's a movie show Chinese 'Ninja', or an Iron Age blacksmith pour molten steel. I had to turn off a SciFi special where a supposed 'Proffessor' didn't know that Dinosaur bones were not actually 'bones' but fossels.[V] (What writer put that in????)
- Anyway, would 'Shogun' still be a great book without all the Japanese culture and perspective?
- If I'm going to write a story on another culture, I certainly don't want to write it from the 20th century perspective.
- Relating S&S to this. REH did a lot of reading and research into Celtic culture. Conan many times is almost a steriotypical heroic Celtic figure. His ignorance, blind strength, his manipulations, his morals, even some of his dialogue is right out of Celtic folklore.
- He's shown as a strange figure compaired to the civilized people around him because he's taken from another time and people. He seems almost real because he IS almost real.
- Having real culture and ideals adds a lot to basic S&S, how much more would it add to a full sized Historical Drama? A piece where even the most basic cultural motovations of the characters are completely different than those of us, here in the 21st century.
- To write a real Historical Fantasy, I believe you have to know the culture first and write second.
- Of course that never- ever releaves the author of the responsibility of good storytelling. Without a good story, it's just a dry history book(and there are already lots of those out there!)
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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Supr
Neophyte
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 107
| Posted 7/26/2005 11:02 AM (GMT -4) | | Chandler wrote crime novels and in some of his storys you can't get the whole situation. You have the feeling everything is logical and perfect but in fact that doesn't make sence.
But Chandler was great storyteller and nobody is condemning him for his unconsequences.
And some wise books by boring professors you don't wanna read.
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/26/2005 11:12 AM (GMT -4) | | Supr,
That's that avoidance technique we were discussing, plus you can leave a lot out of a contemporary setting, its assumed. The trolley runs and you don't have to say how people accept that it does. When Congor the barbarian librarian hops on the trolley in the city of spices you're going to have to sell that much harder. Probably better if he doesn't take the trolley because he's suspicous of its orgins, or that the horses be visibly hauling it about.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 7/26/2005 12:25 PM (GMT -4) | | Good points all---
I wrote a historical novel a few years ago (may just dust it off and rewrite it to my current taste--- it was a good story and the process of making it to print was interupted by divorce.... hmmm...)set in London in 1753. I actually went there, and walked the mean streets as part of my research. But I could afford it, and writing was not what was supporting me, though it was a welcome addition to my income. It was great being able to immerse myself in the place, the time and the culture, but it was not essential. I discovered that most of the details I found interesting were sadly not essential to the story and many could have been made up, especially some of the locations, and in fact I ended up fudging a travel time to make the narrative smoother.
As I said before, Burroughs never went to Africa, or to Mars. Didn't affect the flow or readability of his tales one little bit. that Tarzan fella is one of the most filmed characters in history, and one of the most easily recognized in literature, making Burroughs up there with Elvis as one of the richest dead guys in the graveyard.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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William King
Stablehand
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/26/2005 2:11 PM (GMT -4) | | Michael- you actually went to London in 1753? Is there something you are not telling us, sir? :) Pact with the old horned gentleman in your sig, perhaps? Time machine in the attic?
Rob- I am simply pointing out that when it comes to historical accuracy I just don't care. Believe me, when I read your stories I wont fault you if you (or anybody else) get the bronze smithing details wrong - I will if the story bores me. All I require is that the world is plausible and internally consistent to the degree that it does not interfere with my willing suspension of disbelief. If you want to layer on more detail, that's fine by me. I just don't need it.
All the best,
Bill | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/26/2005 2:19 PM (GMT -4) | | Heck Bill that's fair enough.
Mike T.
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 7/26/2005 2:39 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Michael- you actually went to London in 1753? Is there something you are not telling us, sir? :) Pact with the old horned gentleman in your sig, perhaps? Time machine in the attic?
Damnme if there isn't a story idea there....
You know, the problem with English as a first language is that it messes me up in all the others, eventually even in English.
Although London in 1753 would be interesting, it was also filthy, dangerous, and I suspect the food sucked even worse than it does now.
Naw, the truth is that I am older than I look [:)]
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/26/2005 2:45 PM (GMT -4) | | Michael,
If you want filthy, dangerous cities where the food sucks, you don't need a time machine. Try Seoul, South Korea. Or Ziare in Africa. Better yet and close to home (I know I'm gonna get slammed for this) Fairborn Ohio.[:D]
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2315
| Posted 7/26/2005 2:55 PM (GMT -4) | | erazmus---
Field trip!
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 892
| Posted 7/26/2005 3:10 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
All I require is that the world is plausible and internally consistent to the degree that it does not interfere with my willing suspension of disbelief. If you want to layer on more detail, that's fine by me. I just don't need it.
All the best,
Bill
- Not a problem. 'S not my way or the high way. 'Kings of the Night' is still a favorite of mine even when Howard wrote of Vikings fighting Romans.
- I'm just one of those people who stops and says-- Wait a minute! When L.Mc. wrote about the characters in Lonsome Dove 'hearing the roar of a Winchester 73, then the bigger roar of Gus' older Henry.' (For those who don't keep track, a Henry fired a .44-22 and a Win 73 fired a .44-40. 1/2 the powder charge doesn't make a 'bigger roar!' [:I]
- That sort of info is readily available and, if the author is going to go through the trouble of inserting the names, I think s/he should at least read about what s/he's inserting.
- I may be too touchy about such things, but-- oh well.[:D] (If I learned spelling, grammar, and punctuation as easily as I learn history, I could've been published years ago.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
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Bruce Durham
Crom's Administrator & Drinking Buddy
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 609
| Posted 7/26/2005 3:27 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Better yet and close to home (I know I'm gonna get slammed for this) Fairborn Ohio.[:D]
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
You could always try Scarboro, the armpit of Toronto, but that means you'd have to give over your first-born to cross the border. [:)]
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 7/26/2005 4:55 PM (GMT -4) | | Bruce,
I'll do it, only if they _promise_ not to give him back!
Mike
Michael D. Turner
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Jay Stevol
Neophyte
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 7/26/2005 4:58 PM (GMT -4) | | | I didn't find the food in Seoul to be that bad. Then again, I'm a big lover of Kimchee, and they put the damn stuff in everything over there! | | Back to Top | | |
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