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| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > The New! Improved! S&S | Forum Quick Jump
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Red Viper
Acolyte
      
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 439
| Posted 7/18/2005 10:21 AM (GMT -4) |   | I've no doubt a number of editors toss out a story the instant they perceive it to be an "RPG-type" story, even if the story isn't, in fact, an "RPG-type." And a lot of good sword-and-sorcery no doubt gets tossed out in that process.
I can understand, sort of, how that happens. I know editors are deluged with submissions, and I suspect the majority of those submissions are bad. I base that upon some slush I've read and on stuff other people have foisted upon me when they learned of my interest in writing. When faced with a pile of 200 or 300 stories, you are likely to toss aside anything that does not hook you in seconds. Many "RPG-type" stories have a sameness to them that boggles the mind. The story starts in a tavern, someone hires a mish-mash collection of heroes made up of all the requisite character classes, someone insults the thief, the mighty warrior says something gruff and off they go. You can almost hear the dice rolling.
This is not to say that a good story can't be done in this manner; what I'm saying is that a LOT of bad stories have been done in this manner, and a story that smacks even a little of this isn't likely to get more than a glance from a harried editor faced with a big pile of slush. I have no doubt that some wonderful, spectacular, fascinating stories never see the light of day because of all this, and I hate knowing that. But I can, at least, see how it happens.
That's why the existence of "Flashing Swords," "Amazing Journeys Magazine," Carnifex Press and others thrills me. These are all markets that want to produce the kind of stuff being lost in slush piles at the bigger magazines. These editors have specific needs, know their genres and will not assume that the presence of a big guy with a sword or a snarky thief means "Oh, great, another D&D gaming session turned into blah fiction."
JH: My novel starts with a prologue. But it's not a "here's the background of the world you need to know to have this story make any sense" kind of prologue. It's a prologue told from the vantage of the character who begomes the antagonist in my story; the rest of the novel is told from the protagonist's viewpoint. It really was a structural thing on my part, to get some action and a demon up front and to show the reader a little about the antagonist to make that character a fuller character. It also sets up everything that follows, but it's part of the story and is told as part of the story, rather than just exposition as so many prologues seem to do these days. Whether it works or not, I guess publishers and readers will decide. But if you ever get to pick up my novel, I hope you'll give the prologue a chance!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble | | Back to Top | | |
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William King
Stablehand
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/18/2005 10:22 AM (GMT -4) | | For myself, I actually started writing game tie-in stories because it was the only place I could write the sort of S&S I liked and actually get paid for it-pretty decently too. That was in the late 80's and there simply were not any markets for short sword and sorcery fiction that I could find in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter.)
It was an apprenticeship of sorts because at the time I had neither the confidence nor the skill to write novels. (There are plenty of people on the Net who assure me I still don't have the latter!) They also provided me with a path that let me move on to novels when I was ready. In some ways, for me, the game tie-ins have been what the pulps were for other earlier writers- a place to learn and actually earn a living doing it. Its something that's worth considering about the field. If anybody's interested and going to be at the Worldcon I am moderating a panel on the subject.
I am not sure I would blame D&D for the death of S&S fiction except indirectly. A D&D game allows you to do all the things yourself that you had to read old fashioned simplistic S&S to get- you can play a mighty barbarian or roguish thief stalking those ruins instead of having to read about his adventures. Modern computer games allow you very much the same experience. That is why I think modern S&S has to offer the reader more than a simple written up D&D type scenario- you can get that experience much more immersively elsewhere.
All the best,
Bill | | Back to Top | | |
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Red Viper
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 439
| Posted 7/18/2005 10:52 AM (GMT -4) | | Bill: Good points. I think there is another role for gaming in writing sword-and-sorcery, too, and that is in world-building. I've written many stories that are set in a fantasy world that has existed on tabletops in my home for decades. That long-running campaign produced exotic settings, great characters, plenty of maps, etc. And when I write stories in that setting, it's a tremendous help. I know how my protagonist is likely to react to a certain event or antagonist, because I've seen my players react to those things. I know which red herrings worked in the game, and can make them work in the stories. I know there's a dead-end alley next to the tanner's shop, how far it is to the next town and so on and so on. I don't think any of my stuff reads much like a gaming session, but I know that gaming has certainly helped my writing.
I've read some gaiming tie-in books, too, that were pretty entertaining reads, and I hope nothing I wrote above seemed like a smear of those or anything. I was referring specifically to people who get up from the gaming table, write down what happened and mail it off to an editor -- not to writers who use their word skills and storytelling abilities to good effect in a solid story that just happens to tie in to D&D or to Warhammer. There's a difference, as you well know!
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4503
| Posted 7/18/2005 11:13 AM (GMT -4) | | I think unsolicited game fiction is like fan fiction so many people write about their favorite screen characters, amusing for its own self and a place a lot of people get started writing but not much of a venue in and of itself. One of my favorite writers got her start by writing a star trek fan fic piece, Lois Bujold. She later rewrote that piece extensively several times, removing the S-T references and setting it in her own universe. That was _Barrayar_ which led to the entire Miles Vorkosigan saga, four hugos and innumerable other awards.
I don't know of any examples of gaming fiction leading to similar results but I'm sure there are some. And the fiction itself isn't a bad thing except as it impacts the patience of those all important first readers at major markets and other prime venues. I think it does drown out some very good original voices and drives others to move on in more acceptable directions, leaving the Sword and Sorcery we love coming up a bit short.
What I'd love to see is some living working authors who started out writing S&S get together somewhere to write some more. As far as I know Andy Offutt, Orson Scott Card, Tanith Lee, Brian Lumley, David Drake, Diana Paxon and many others all wrote some solid S&S back in the day along with many others I can't recall off hand and all are writing now, though few in the original genre. That'd make a nice line up for an anthology or twenty, leaving spaces for those of us who can cut it to maybe get a seat at that table. That could cause a revival all by itself.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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William King
Stablehand
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/18/2005 11:49 AM (GMT -4) | | >And the fiction itself isn't a bad thing except as it impacts the patience of those all important first readers at major markets and other prime venues. I think it does drown out some very good original voices and drives others to move on in more acceptable directions, leaving the Sword and Sorcery we love coming up a bit short.<
I'm not sure I follow you there, Michael. Would you care to expand on that?
All the best,
Bill | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4503
| Posted 7/18/2005 12:35 PM (GMT -4) | | Bill,
I'm never reluctant to open my mouth and squawk.
Bad D&D fiction sits in the slush pile. The harried editor-in-fact tells his only assistant "We need to get that pile knocked down a bit. Take some of those home and look through them," So humble assistant, now first reader, grabs a stack a good ten inches high on his way out the door.
Once home he looks over the first in the pile while unwrapping his microwave dinner. It's a badly written pastiche of role playing game cliches with a wizard with a wand, a female barbarian in a magic bikini, a gruff dwarf with and axe and others, who are on there way to assassinate an unpopular local civil offical called "The dark lord". About the time our reader gets to this point he puts down the manuscript and gets to the next one.
The next one is different. It's about a young werewolf struggling it earn his place amisdt his clan and become a leader in their war with the vampires. Its written okay, the writer at least knows how to use a spell checker and the grammer isn't awful but about twenty pages in the reader starts to see where the author was "Rolling the dice" to see what happens next. A ways farther it still hasn't grabbed him and he puts it down and starts another.
After finishing his dinner, listening to his favorite TV program while he reads, our first reader has knocked the stack down a couple of inches, mostly by being sever as too not reading a manuscript that doesn't "look" good, ie spelling, punctuation, format. Everything he's read so far has been junk but he wants the boss to be happy so he presses on.
He picks up yet another stack of pages by nobody he's ever heard of. Actually its a well written story about a vikings quest for his missing father and the involvement in the search of Odin's ravens. Unfortunatly the author started out with the same sort of opening used in a lot of game fiction, young hero with a sword and a 'tude responding to a dangerous situation. The readers tired of this stuff and puts it down after the first twelve lines or so. "Another D&D session rip-off" he snorts, going on to pick up a perfectly dreadful story about unicorns and oak-worms.
Just bad luck for the writer, right? If he'd been at the top of that stack he'd have gotten a second look, from a person who could actually write a check for his story. Well, maybe. After a few weeks of this between crunch times when the staff is too busy putting out the magazine or what ever it is to read any submissions every story starts to blurr and it gets harder and harder to stand out and when a lot of what your trying to stand out from looks similar in its barest bone to your work, you get left by the curb more often than you should.
Thats sort of what I was trying to say.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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William King
Stablehand
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/18/2005 1:58 PM (GMT -4) | | Right- got you. Was not sure how actual D&D novels- of the type published by WotC/TSR- interfere with the process since they are commissioned in-house. You are obviously referring to D&D type novels and non-media tie in publishers.
All the best,
Bill | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2324
| Posted 7/18/2005 6:14 PM (GMT -4) | | You know what I would like to see? Somewhere other than faux-medieval settings.
How about 14th century sub-saharan Africa set in Timbuctu? City of knowlege, Islamic scholarship, surrounded by warring tribes and fluid empires.
Or the "true" origins of the Austrailian aborigine (your choice--- fugitives from Atlantis or remnants of some Ur-tribe).
Or some totally non-historical stuff based on some of the weirder flat-earther type stuff (see www.crank.net for some of the most... unusual.)
I am writing some stuff set in bronze-age Mesopotamia and Anatolia. Lots of recent discoveries there, very weird and interesting.
Egypt seems to be a natural--- where is our great Pharonic warrior hero?
Or pacific islander? If you saw the movie Rapa Nui, you know just how exotic that culture can seem.
Even the veriest hack could take some worn out plot and drop it into some new exotic setting and serve up the same old stale bread, but at least it would have the mold cut off the crust.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4503
| Posted 7/18/2005 6:37 PM (GMT -4) | | Michael,
I'm with you on that, except I can't imagine doing the work to portray such an exotic culture and not bothering to at least warm up the plot a little. Recently I read a pretty good fantasy with a not dissimilar setting, the _Joust_ series by Mercedes Lackey. Bronze age setting, with dragons. It'd be S&S if Misty didn't stick with the classic fantasy "Young boy comes of age in difficult circumstance" plot line and tone that has worked so well for her (and many others) so often before.
Like the Aztec setting we spoke of in another thread such worlds would seem right and a logical choice for an author to tend to if trying to break in, especially in novels. Short fiction would be a little more difficult as there is little room to establish such a setting, while generic psuedo-medival requires no explanation. But such a setting done well would certainly help a manuscript from an unknown author stand out of the pile a bit more.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/19/2005 3:43 AM (GMT -4) | | Dear Michael,
Right on--I would love to see some submissions from those sorts of environments myself! I'm TIRED of pseudo-medieval.
best,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4503
| Posted 7/19/2005 5:43 AM (GMT -4) | | Howard,
Don't hold your breath waiting for me to put my money where my mouth is, I've been a psuedo-medival offender as much as anyone and I write at a glacial pace.
But I'm awfully glad I started coming here, the idea caudron is getting filled nicely.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/19/2005 6:43 AM (GMT -4) | | Michael, we're glad to have you. I enjoy your posts.
We hope you'll spread the word about the site and our products--Lords of Swords and future anthologies power all that we do, so if fans want to see more new sword and sorcery they need to help keep us going!
best wishes,
Howard
Managing Editor
www.swordandsorcery.org
Flashing Swords E-Zine | | Back to Top | | |
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jhmcmullen
Neophyte
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 7/19/2005 7:04 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by jonesha
Right on--I would love to see some submissions from those sorts of environments myself! I'm TIRED of pseudo-medieval.
Crap! Now I'll lower my expectations on my story selling to Howard.
'Cause ninth century is pretty much medieval, and there's even an inn, fer goodness' sake!
Of course, there is a draugr-like thing, and a little more detail than usual on beer....
(Now, taking my tongue out of my cheek.)
Of course, even pseudo-medieval can be made interesting; you just get a head start if you write about Egyptians. Or Incans; I have a Chachapoyan mummy story brewing that might be considered S&S. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4503
| Posted 7/19/2005 7:24 AM (GMT -4) | | I do what I can to promote the products I find out about here, including L.o.S. . Unfortunatly I'm not active many places on the web, I'm not conventioning this year unles I get a rash of last second sales or hit the lotto. I'd tell my freinds except I haven't got many--writer, you know, practically a shut in.
What I will do is submit and submit and submit, here and elsewhere, so I can get those sales, go to the cons and get word out for all the fine products I've found. When I do I reasonably effective, I talk more and faster than I post.[:D]
I hope Pitch Black does many more S&S anthologies, some open ones would be very nice. I'll be pulling for them either way, as this is not only what I like to write, it's what I like to read.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2324
| Posted 7/19/2005 9:37 AM (GMT -4) | | As long as I am correcting all that is lacking in s&s, let me speak of protagonists---
Dear Lord, I am tired of white males. And I am a white male.
I am just as tired of white males with bosoms, as in warrior women who are just a set of traits that white males wish women had, with skimpier costumes.
Howsabout:
More women who act like, you know, women?
Asians who are not Japanese Samurai or Chinese Shaolin? More than half the world's population are Asian--- Viet, Philipino, Thai, Tibetan, Mongolian, or if you have to do Japanese, why not Ainu?
Pre-Islamic Middle Eastern, Central Asian Steppes, Austrailian Abo, Pacific Islander, Eskimo, Ancient African, Phoencian, or Haitian.
Fish out of water stories are fun to write, somebody with more time and skill than I please take one of these groups and drop them into some other culture. Poet from Harun Al-Rashid's court in Norse saga... oh, right, been done. See how easily the story writes itself? If Michael Crichton in all of his hackly glory can do it, so can you!
End of my rant, time for me to put some words in a line that I am paid for, back to writing fiction this year, but still am obligated to a IT security manual for pharmacies before the end of the year.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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PaulMc
Adept
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 992
| Posted 7/19/2005 9:45 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
I am tired of white males. And I am a white male.
Pre-Islamic Middle Eastern, Central Asian Steppes, Austrailian Abo, Pacific Islander, Eskimo, Ancient African, Phoencian, or Haitian.
I guess we're on a wave length.
I have been working on an Pacific Islander story cycle since earlier this year.
But I'm doing 20K word stories so you won't see them in Flashing Swords.
Though, maybe I can take one of the side characters and give him a 5K word adventure...
-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 7/19/2005 9:53 AM (GMT -4) | | hope Pitch Black does many more S&S anthologies, some open ones would be very nice. I'll be pulling for them either way, as this is not only what I like to write, it's what I like to read.
***
Thanks, Mike (and all).
We'd love to be doing more anthos, more open anthos, and also single-author novels, series, and collections. Pitch-Black has every intention of seeing these plans through, but as I have mentioned before -- it takes ground support. So often, we tend to believe that work, great fiction, will do its own promotion and that is true to an extent, but we live in a short-attention span society so -- only a short window to impress upon the bean counters that our brand of fantasy and sword and sorcery is a winning brand.
Add to that -- word of mouth advertising is more powerful than many might believe.
And so far as psuedo-medieval fantasy goes: we avoid all but the most superlative of these. I see an awful lot of them, but purchase only a small percentage. There are endless variations of heroic fantasy and worlds to be explored. That's part of the opportunity that Pitch-Black hopes to represent, exactly what we want to do: discover and publish new voices, explore new fantasy worlds, find original heroes and heroines and deliver fiction that people want to read.
But it is crucial to our success that our supporters do all they can to drive interest and sales through the roof! That is how the markets will change and more markets for solid fantasy fiction will open up, when there are sales and readers to back up the excellent talent-pool of writers who are pouring out to participate in what PB is trying to do.
Believe me, Pitch-Black and our distributors and their sales reps are doing everything possible to promote the anthos all around the world, but (recall my post on SF as "folk art") ground support is where it all hinges: if you know someone (and you DO) who's been lamenting the lack of good fantasy shorts in the marketplace, let them know about LoS. If you're stuck on what gift to give to a friend or family member -- buy them a copy of Lords of Swords.
We have specials running at our store nearly 24/7 and/or if you Google around you can find excellent deals on LoS.
http://pitchblackbooks.netfirms.com/Cynosure/nfoscomm/catalog/index.php
Spread the word about our contest, too -- or mention to your non-reader friends that you have a book you can recommend that has something for everyone. Tell your friends who loved LOTR that you've got a book for them that won't strain their brains but entertain them with plenty of thoughtful, imaginative -- sword-slinging fantasy fiction.
We heartily thank each and every one of you for your support and creativity!
Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Dragon Angel
Lord Dragon
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 1066
| Posted 7/19/2005 12:29 PM (GMT -4) | | I would love to set a story in a different setting. India would be fun, or Africa, or south America, or Vietnam.
Here's the big problem: It would take me a solid year of research to produce anything even approaching believable. Writer's Digest puts out good books that cut down the research time, but only on the standard pseudo-medieval setting (and I think one for the old west). Researching a story about the Aztecs is harder than all get out. Worse, If I write a book about Aztecs instead of Pseudo-medievel, all evidence I've seen suggests it will only sell in mediocre quantities. | | Back to Top | | |
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CharlesR
Neophyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 64
| Posted 7/19/2005 2:57 PM (GMT -4) | | I'll offer a 'trick' I've used a couple of times to write about a new and unfamiliar setting without doing mass amounts of research and still sounding as if I'd minored in the time period. I was writing a story about ancient Rome and I had to do it quickly so rather than read ten books on Rome and try to digest them, I bought a biography of Cicero, picked one particular year of his life, and set my story there. The biography gave me all the local color, customs, political situations, current events, and so forth for that year and I made good use of it. Many people complimented me on my 'research.' Oh and the index gave me all the male and female Roman names I needed. It wouldn't work as well for a book, I'm sure, but for a short story it worked fine.
Charles R | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4503
| Posted 7/19/2005 3:55 PM (GMT -4) | | Charles,
I can see that trick working in a short and I'll file it away for future use for that.
Remember what were talking about here though. Fantasy stories. We don't need to replace the generic medival setting with authentic Aztec or exactingly researched Egyptian. We could replace it with Pseudo-bronze age Ur-like, its another world after all. Howard created his world in such a way that he could take recognisable bits of our world and fit them in as he needed. Blacks, orientals, semetics, europeans all mixed freely. Even aztecs and escimos could be used if he needed them. One need not aquire a phd in anthropology to use a setting, just use it. Steal what you need from an encyclopedia and a few standard references and get on with writing your tale. (Incidentally I reccomend L.Sprague DeCamp's "The Ancient Engineers" as one of those standard references.)It's the writing thats going to sell the story, plot, characters, pacing, action. The setting just helps it stand out, like a chrome cover on the book stand, its most effective when a kick-ass story is wrapped inside.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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CharlesR
Neophyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 64
| Posted 7/19/2005 5:22 PM (GMT -4) | | Yeah, I'm with you Mike. I was offering that bit of writing info to the folks who had expressed interest in alternate historical settings. I usually prefer to make everything up. A few months back though, I had considered setting a sword & sorcery story in Babylon. Following my own advice, I went out and got a nifty biography of Hammurabi. As I read though, I found that I didn't really want to write about Babylon. Now will I make use of some of the things I learned next time I'm world building? You bet.
Charles R | | Back to Top | | |
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Dragon Angel
Lord Dragon
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 1066
| Posted 7/19/2005 9:44 PM (GMT -4) | | | Good point. I guess I worry though that if I don't try to stay as accurate as possible, that the story will have a pseudo-medieval feel to it. Also, the important parts for me would be less the technology and more the cultural norms. I can never seem to find good references on that. Much easier to learn what weapons they used, what they ate for breakfast, or what color women dyed their hair. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4503
| Posted 7/19/2005 10:50 PM (GMT -4) | | David,
I suppose that's where a background in anthropology or history comes in handy, pity I rejected the benefits of a higher education. However, living aboard for many years taught me that its the little assumptions that make your setting foreign and exotic. I've often adapted a philipino or Korean G.I. town into a wild and wicked fantasy frontier city, they are not dissimilar. A good option is to have the people in the little village down the way have a very different attitude, this is accurate even if the "city" is Denver and the little town, say its "Elicott" Colorado. Not far away, totally different world.
Historical setting are tricky because historicly most women didn't have as many options open to them as we like to display in fantasy these days. They had other options we don't think about because in most cultures women had a whole society of their own that didn't even superficially resemble that of the male dominated society history mostly reguards. Basicly if you don't make war you don't make the history books. I'm thinking of cultures like Ancient Siam or the Laoation kingdoms. Or the several states of india before the muslim invasions of the twelth century.
We fantasists also seem prone to ignore the rich opportunities in tribal culture, particularly in shorter works. There is endles information on the customs, taboos and orginisation of plenty of different tribal peoples from several continents available in any public library yet you seldom see evidence of it in short fantasy works. (My own included, I'll add) I think a lot of people reference R. E. Howard more than actual academic studies of indigenous peoples and that's a shame because while Howard was well read so much has been done in this area since his death. Heck I know a lot of writers who seldom reference so much as a national geographic article to get their "exotic" people. What they usually get is "generic peoples".
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2324
| Posted 7/20/2005 8:45 AM (GMT -4) | | Good point--- remember, Burroughs never went to Africa --and he sure as heck never went to Mars. And while some of his gaffes are truly laughable, it never draws away from the breakneck narrative pace.
In a truly well written S&S story, the background is never the star.
Faust-- How comes it then that thou art out of hell? Mephistophilis-- Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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