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| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > Interesting Tangent Essay | Forum Quick Jump
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
      
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 10/13/2005 7:51 AM (GMT -4) |   | Hey all,
Any interested in the New Edge editorial might want to visit the editorial Dave Truesdale has up at Tangent Online in rebuttal to an article that took some of his comments on the state of current SF out of context. Sounds as though he may have been slammed by the same sort of mindset that was unhappy with the New Edge.
http://www.tangentonline.com/
Editor-in-Chief
www.swordandsorcery.org
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 10/13/2005 8:19 AM (GMT -4) | | Sounds as though he may have been slammed by the same sort of mindset that was unhappy with the New Edge.
***
Thanks for the link, Howard. The 'schism" between slipstream and traditional SF has been going on and on forever. I think you probably missed most of the year-long fray over at the Tangent NG based around the story, "What I Didn't See," by Karen Joy Fowler, that precipitated most of the ensuing bombast.
I thought Big Dave made some great points about it being rather pointless ;-) to drain the speculative content out of SF -- but there are many who simply feel traditional elements of SF have become constrictive. Why the solution many seem to offer is to "ape" academic literary styles,themes, and strategies is, to my mind, simply an indication that everybody feels like speculative ficiton is a wide-enough and open enough umbrella under which to deploy their individual works.
The supression or mocking of traditional SF elements, I have no idea what "good" that could do, other than prevent certain folks from feeling like they aren't serious enough as writers or grown up enough as thinkers. Or they are as truly bored with traditional SF as I am with much of their slipstream excursions. Must be that other folks feel the same way, if the plummeting circulation rates and readership for short spec-fic is any indication, and, obviously, I believe it is.
Still, the less speculative content a work has, the less likely it seems that readers who come looking for speculative content (and there are potentially millions) will stick around to admire any given writer's neo-surrealistic or "mood" driven writing style.
Maybe the SF umbrella has just been stretched too far, especially with short fiction, as Dave Truesdale suggests....
Daniel
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John Hocking
The Olde Prospector
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 10/13/2005 8:56 AM (GMT -4) | | So is Tangent going to get Ms. Tilton to review 'Flashing Swords' #4?
I imagine she'd make it sting, but I'd still like to hear what she had to say about our latest effort. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 10/13/2005 9:42 AM (GMT -4) | | John,
You are a glutton for punishment.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
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"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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EdMcfadden
Neophyte
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 10/13/2005 10:02 AM (GMT -4) | | | I couldn't get through it...it’s so dull. Why do people spend valuable time arguing about stuff no one cares about? Write your fiction, and let the chips fall where they may. Sounds like Dave always has to have the last word, and I don't know why Jay and Ruth are even wasting their time with him. | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 10/13/2005 10:32 AM (GMT -4) | | Dave is a smart guy, and he makes some valid points but like a lot of politically conservative writers he is soooo stuck in the arguments of the past.
As I posted in the comments there, this whole stew is one of the symptoms of the cusp of a stylistic change. I think that we are on the trembling edge of some explosion, just like the new wave was. You see the same cycle in music--- self-referential work and dry rehashings at the end of the old cycle, then an explosion of something new, fresh, and exciting (and usually angry) that eventually ossifies into something that the next generation can rebel against.
In fact the cycle repeats itself in nearly every field of human endevour--- religion--- the Methodists, now one of the more liberal churches were the original "Holy Rollers" 200 years ago, politics--- the Republican party was founded as a radical, very liberal party, the party of Lincoln, and film--- roll your own example here.
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 10/13/2005 10:50 AM (GMT -4) | | Well, I stuck my oar in the water. It is, as Ed Mc pointed out, a dull excersize but I wasn't too busy to read it. I hear it all the time.
The most important point to these seemingly endless debates is that you can't just write your stories and let the chips fall. The story that bored you in last months F&SF or Asimov's got bought instead of the one that ended up thrilling you in Amazing Journeys or one that would have if only its author had _heard_ of AJM, for example. For all that you hear people talk about shrinking circulation no one ever wants to stand up and say "its the stories you're printing!" or even better "Its the stories I'm printing".
It isn't about sub-genres really. Its about inclusion. These days everything seems to be included except good, old fashioned scientific action adventure stories with middle class values. We've included ourselves right out of the market. In fact we're not even in the market anymore, just clutching on a few weather worn rocks we grabbed hold of a long time ago. Those rocks are wet and we're starting to slip.
I have nothing much against a well told marxist, politically correct emotithon story. I'm sure I've enjoyed at least two. Well, probably two. I've got three sons, 16, 18 and 21, living here with me and they just won't read the SF short fiction thats here in the house. Boring crap, they call most of it. The read SF (everyone in my house reads sf, and most write it or illustrate it) but not F&SF or Asimov's or Realms of Fantasy or Fantastic Stories or Weird Tales. They ate up AJM but I had a story in it and they may have just been being polite.
What they read are novels like 1632, Watch on the Rhine, Diplomatic Immunity and collections like Cold Equations, plus a heck of a lot of old stuff (Heinlien, Delany, Norton). They read my older magazines, by which I mean F&SF, 1950-1960, and original Weird Tales, which causes me some heart burn (put them back in the bags, damn it!). But they wouldn't even browse a copy of this months issue on the stands.
I'm rambling so I'll sum up. Big house SF, whats left of it, has gotten to literary to grab market share, mid grade SF, like Ed Mc's, is sliding in the same direction. I like Ed's much better than Gordon Van Gelder's but not as much as John Cambell's and my kids seem to agree with me.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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jonesha
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 10/13/2005 11:12 AM (GMT -4) | | "A trembling edge:" I like that. Like a new edge or something?
Swords Together and all that.
Editor-in-Chief
www.swordandsorcery.org
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 10/13/2005 11:35 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
"A trembling edge:" I like that. Like a new edge or something?
Sure. Remember, you read it here first:)
"It's a Living" Byzarium--- coming in November!
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" Now appearing in The Sword Review
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 10/13/2005 1:10 PM (GMT -4) | | So is Tangent going to get Ms. Tilton to review 'Flashing Swords' #4?
***
Lord, I hope not. Ms. Tilton always signs her forum posts as a "writer, retired." Unfortunately, I don't think she is applying this motto to review-writing....
Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com | | Back to Top | | |
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trey
Neophyte
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 72
| Posted 10/13/2005 1:10 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
Dave is a smart guy, and he makes some valid points but like a lot of politically conservative writers he is soooo stuck in the arguments of the past.
As I posted in the comments there, this whole stew is one of the symptoms of the cusp of a stylistic change. I think that we are on the trembling edge of some explosion, just like the new wave was. You see the same cycle in music--- self-referential work and dry rehashings at the end of the old cycle, then an explosion of something new, fresh, and exciting (and usually angry) that eventually ossifies into something that the next generation can rebel against.
I think there's a great degree of truth in that. The old becomes new. The rebels become the establishment. Comic books provides another great example: Kirby and his generation were sidelined and ridiculed through much of the seventies maybe early '80s by the young turks. Now, comics have entered a sort of nostalgic sense of wonder phase where Kirby and the like are as unto gods.
But it'll shift again. And the funny thing is good work is put out (in some degree) under any paradigm, its just its a different type of "good."
Its cycles like these that made some musicians rock stars in the '80s and house-painters in 1992.
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 10/13/2005 1:15 PM (GMT -4) | | Big house SF, whats left of it, has gotten to literary to grab market share, mid grade SF, like Ed Mc's, is sliding in the same direction.
***
Well, the "Big house" SF custodians will tell you content isn't impacting their market-share as much as distribution. I'm not saying that's the case, but it doesn't take long, dealing with distributors and retailers, to start to understand where this line of reasoning originated.
Plus, the demographics and sales figures for *short* fiction are drastically different from novel length SF. Could simply be people just don't like short stories as much as they once did. Mind you, the good-selling novels and series DO feature plenty of speculative content for the most part. That's important to keep in mind. Movies, novels, series, comic books, and video games with speculative elements and themes seem to do better than mainstream stuff and yet with short fiction, there seems to be little or no traction at all.
What was the last 'slipstream" best-seller? Where are there slipstream fans who are not themselves writers or editors?
On the other hand, LoS (and from what I hear Black Gate) seem to attract their fair share of younger readers. So, although distribution issues are certainly hurting sales of short SF publications, non-spec-driven content is probably losing as many readers as cruddy shelving or lack of shelving altogether.
Daniel
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JMP
Stablehand
Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 10/13/2005 2:57 PM (GMT -4) | | I wasn't crazy about either piece (in Tangent or IRoSF)-- and said so in the associated forums, so I'll try not to repeat that gnarfing here.
What bothers me about both of them is the Culture War (a.k.a. "politicization of everything") nonsense. I'm as enthusiastic in my political opinions as the next guy (provided that the next guy is a foam-flecked CSPAN-watching political junkie)... but I don't think politics should dominate over every other value. When Dave Truesdale bangs the drum about writers "questioning their assumptions" (i.e. adopting his political and social assumptions) or Nestvold & Lake step on Weinbaum's face to make some snarky generalization about Golden Age SF, I see the same thing going on. We're being asked to subordinate our dreams to someone else's political platform. I say screw that, no matter what the platform is, no matter how good the intentions are. Some things are more important than politics, and the imaginative impulse is one of them.
"Those who refuse to listen to dragons are probably doomed to spend their lives acting out the nightmares of politicians."
--Le Guin
"The one great crusade worthy of an enlightened man is that directed against whatever impoverishes imagination, wonder, sensation, dramatic life, and the appreciation of beauty."
--Lovecraft
"How come people got belly-buttons?"
--Aristotle
O.K.-- I made that last one up.
JMP
James M. Pfundstein | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 10/13/2005 3:12 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
What bothers me about both of them is the Culture War (a.k.a. "politicization of everything") nonsense. I'm as enthusiastic in my political opinions as the next guy (provided that the next guy is a foam-flecked CSPAN-watching political junkie)... but I don't think politics should dominate over every other value.
I agree. Politics are not everything.
Pia Zadora, puppies, and chocolate milk are important, too.
And I write political stuff under a different name. The different name is because Culture Warriors truly do not know where to stop.
I would rather spend time listening to some 40 year old virgin* fan-boy who still lives with his mother waving his Cheeto-stained fingers in passionate arguement in some con-suite about some minor point of Klingon grammar. Keep your culture warriors. [:)]
*this was a rhetorical example. Do not try this at home.
"It's a Living" Byzarium--- coming in November!
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" Now appearing in The Sword Review
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John Hocking
The Olde Prospector
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 10/13/2005 3:43 PM (GMT -4) | | "We're being asked to subordinate our dreams to someone else's political platform. I say screw that, no matter what the platform is, no matter how good the intentions are."
I owe you a beverage for that one, James.
Well said. | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 10/13/2005 3:51 PM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Sounds like Dave always has to have the last word
Reading the comments makes me ted to think the same thing--- and Mike, aren't you happy that Dave enlightened you to the meaning of the old saw about the Golden Age? Like there is anyone left who hasn't heard that one :)
"It's a Living" Byzarium--- coming in November!
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" Now appearing in The Sword Review
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 10/13/2005 11:15 PM (GMT -4) | | Michael,
I've heard the old saw before and tremble at its implications today. What was I reading when I was twelve?
Stan Lee and Robert Heinlien and Louis L'Amour.
What are twelve year olds reading now?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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trey
Neophyte
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 72
| Posted 10/14/2005 4:13 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Michael,
I've heard the old saw before and tremble at its implications today. What was I reading when I was twelve?
Stan Lee and Robert Heinlien and Louis L'Amour.
What are twelve year olds reading now?
Mike
Harry Potter, maybe Narnia, manga perhaps. I don't know any 12 year-olds. Why do you ask?
trey | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 10/14/2005 5:15 AM (GMT -4) | | I guess a better question would be, when do people 'discover' science fiction these days?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
|
JMP
Stablehand
Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 10/14/2005 6:36 AM (GMT -4) | | Science fiction and fantasy are so pervasive nowadays they may be losing some of their distinctiveness. I remember with some clarity the first sf book I ever picked up (Asimov's Mysteries), along with the sensation that this was something different from anything I'd ever seen or heard of and something I wanted more of. (Likewise I can remember picking up a paperback copy of Fellowship of the Ring and wondering what the deal was and where I could find more of this stuff.) But I doubt if my kids, who grew up in a media culture saturated with fantastic imagery, ever had a similar experience. (If it's any comfort, they do read a lot-- old & new stuff, in genre and out.)
James M. Pfundstein | | Back to Top | | |
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JMP
Stablehand
Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 10/14/2005 6:44 AM (GMT -4) | | I sent that last one off unfinished by mistake-- thought I was previewing rather than submitting. I'd meant to tell John Hocking that the beverage debt goes the other way: I must already owe him several for his inventive stories about Kel the Archivist.
But this way I have two messages instead of one and creep closer to Neophyte status. So it's all for the best (which is what I claim about all my mistakes, candidly).
JMP
James M. Pfundstein | | Back to Top | | |
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