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James Enge
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   Posted 1/23/2007 2:11 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Re Hardcase Crime: I don't know if it's the best (not having read them all), but I liked Ed McBain's The Gutter and the Grave.




James Enge

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"Turn Up This Crooked Way" (selected by Rich Horton for his "Virtual Best" of 2005) in Black Gate 8

"Payment Deferred" in Black Gate 9

"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6

"The Red Worm's Way" in Flashing Swords E-Zine Annual

"A Book of Silences" forthcoming in Black Gate 10

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TRtheJ
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   Posted 1/23/2007 2:11 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Hocking said...

Sorry TR, as much as I love Hardcase Crime (own every one, write letters to the editor, etc) the sales of that particular series are nothing special. 

Man, some of them are of gem-like beauty, too.

But only the Stephen King title made much of a stir.

I hope the pendulum swings back.

But I am not counting on it.  

So Hard Case Crime isn't doing that well. I must admit I'm surprised, considering it is very unusual for a book shop -- in this case Books-A-Million -- to carry so many of a nonselling item.
 
Oh, I read the King Hard Case Crime book and David Dodge's The Last Match which were quite enjoyable.
 
I think we're overlooking one aspect other than the women factor. And that is the book shops of today. What I mean is the fact book shops these days are far from what they were in my youth (the 70's), in that they just don't carry stock the way they used to. Back then, as a teen, I could find complete series on the shelf, such as Tarzan, Gor, Conan, The Executioner and on and on, waiting to be bought. Today it's a rare thing to find even a complete trilogy on the shelf, and in that case you find book 3 or maybe book two. And considering most Fantasy and Science Fiction these days comes in trilogy or series... Plus, the fact with some book shops, as with my local one, they don't carry new releases such as the recent Conan trilogy on the shelf, leaving a possible buyer having to know about it ahead of time.
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John Hocking
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   Posted 1/23/2007 2:49 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Aw, it's not like Hard Case is dead or anything.  They generally do sell, just on the lower end of acceptable for a mass market paperback mystery.
 
The Janet Evanovich mass market mystery that came out last June sells twice as much, on a daily basis, as the Hard Case Crime book that hit the stands last month.
 
Let me reveal myself here.
I LOVE HARD CASE CRIME BOOKS WITH ALL MY MANGY HEART.  
 
Look at these covers....
 
 
Some are so beautiful they make me choke up.
 
The only one I've read that was less than Very Good was the forthcoming LUCKY AT CARDS.
A "best" one can't be selected, because they come at the hardboiled genre from so many directions.
 
For old-fashioned hardboiled pulp melodrama go for Wade Miller's BRANDED WOMAN
(mysterious criminal mastermind, dangerous female lead, outrageous jerk-the-rug out from under your feet conclusion)
 
For Hard Drinkin', Down and Out Macho Noir go for Day Keene's HOME IS THE SAILOR
(Hapless doomed he-man hero, ultra-duplicitous female, dumb cops, gallons of booze)
 
For Crisp, Terse, Hardhitting, Hemingwayesque Noir go for Richard Stark's (Donald Westlake) 361.
(Nice guy goes revenge-mad, brutal scenes of painful clarity)
 
For top notch tough-guy kicks the bad-guy's ass into next week thrills, try Max Allan Collins THE LAST QUARRY .
(Honest old school machismo with sleazy thugs, gorgeous dames and a narrator who's a "retired" hitman) 
 
I could go on.
Haven't found one yet that wasn't worth reading.
But it should be obvious by now that I love this kinda stuff.
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erazmus
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   Posted 1/23/2007 2:51 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Guys,
Nothing special isn't the same as dismal. Hard Case Crime is a different format, a return to short novels, and I expect it might take a while to catch on. Or it might not catch on, the value = weight idea seems pretty well entreanched in the public at large.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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TRtheJ
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   Posted 1/23/2007 5:22 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
erazmus said...
Guys,
Nothing special isn't the same as dismal. Hard Case Crime is a different format, a return to short novels, and I expect it might take a while to catch on. Or it might not catch on, the value = weight idea seems pretty well entreanched in the public at large.
Mike

By "value = weight", I take it you are referring to the phenomenon of as book prices have gone up page numbers have as well. That someone is less likely to be a $6.99 paper back that's 195 pages than one over 300 pages. I have always found this an interesting occurance and have found it sad to read a 300 plus page book that would've been a good 195 page book if you cut out the padding, so to speak. Quite like a number of two hour plus movies I've seen. rolleyes Anyway, I've often wondered why both books cost the same.
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erazmus
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   Posted 1/23/2007 5:25 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Books are like steak. Sometimes a higher price for a lower weight is a good deal.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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Supr
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   Posted 2/4/2007 1:39 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Hocking said...
Hey Supr, did you read my post?



Yes John. I'm broken: 80 % are women !

But I do think, that S&S is a very difficult genre to write. It must be realistic, one mistake and the story is screwed up... you can't write a good S&S book in a month! It takes much more time and writers forget it, let's make it clear.

And on the other hand: S&S is a one of the most fast action packed genres! And you said, that videogames and dvd are in, but... the books with action also... cool
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Melkor
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   Posted 3/11/2007 4:45 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Id like to say something about this, not concerning the reader, but the writer.

I think its important to go beyong gender issues in a given piece of literature. For example, too often a female main charcater has the male counterpart, and the male main charcater has a female counterpart. i often see this as a very boring gender thing I dont care for, as if giving the reader an expectation for either romance, or gender tension in whatever form it comes up in the story. I personally got tired of it.

Maybe this tendency is universal, but I think it tries to sort of be friendly to both men and women.

As a guy, I guess I like violence. I like skull splitting battles and such. Maybe why I like heavy Metal. But I wouldnt categorize myself as somebody who goes out looking for "masculine" fiction. For the moment, most S&S I have read is either from Flashing Swords, or the Solomon Kane anthology Ive yet to finish, but I think the primal masculinity in S&S derives from an element of the genre, as opposed to being an element itself. I see S&S as a violent adventure, that doesnt stop with action, but has an interesting setting that heightens the sense of danger, and creates a world reminiscent to living by "jungle law". The big warrior with the slender half naked princess thats clutching his big muscular arm is derived from the whats permissible in S&S, and not the defining element. Still, its undeniable the manly appeal.

I read Red Shadows, by REH, and the mixture of exploring dangerous, wild and savage territory, and the quest for vengeance appealing to my masculinity, but its not limited to that. Theres a human element there, independent to sex, where you are facing the unknown, traveling to the dark corners of the world and finding a place where the convictions of the "civilized" man crumble, and you are there, trying to survive in that.

As for the games part, being only 22, being of the video game generation, I dont think I find myself indulging my masculinity in games. Not in the fantasy games. I admit it: I often create female characters. Im just fascinated with female heroes. I think theres a certain femeninity in a woman thats ready to cleave your head in two. Not that Id want a wife that could do that :) At least not to me.


"By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers:.... For neither do men live nor die in vain" - H.G.Wells - The War of the Worlds

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TRtheJ
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   Posted 3/12/2007 8:27 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Some interesting point, Melkor.

But in thinking it over, I think we have left out one important reason women read more books than men. Games? Television? Movies? Maybe. Yet I think the other big reason is comic books. They're quick reads, exciting and the really big thing going for them, they got pictures. 

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Melkor
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   Posted 3/12/2007 8:35 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How do you mean, TR? That men today prefer to have their media shown to them in a tangible way, like the pictures of comics, or the obvious visual element movies have?


"By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers:.... For neither do men live nor die in vain" - H.G.Wells - The War of the Worlds

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Supr
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   Posted 3/14/2007 1:16 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Melkor said...
I see S&S as a violent adventure, that doesnt stop with action, but has an interesting setting that heightens the sense of danger, and creates a world reminiscent to living by "jungle law".



But don't you think, Melkor, that this is typically manly way of life? Just to do it devil Without "female" innersolutions... cool
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/14/2007 1:25 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Supr said...
Melkor said...
I see S&S as a violent adventure, that doesnt stop with action, but has an interesting setting that heightens the sense of danger, and creates a world reminiscent to living by "jungle law".



But don't you think, Melkor, that this is typically manly way of life? Just to do it devil Without "female" innersolutions... cool


Sounds more like a typically hollywood way of life than anything. We're living in a world where just about everything is video in some way. Animated or live action, computer generated or on film.

If you're going to sit down and play an online game, do you want one with pretty pictures and lots of blood guts and gore, or do you want one where you have to read the descriptions of what you see and type in your commands?

Now go a step further. Which is more common in the gaming and movie industry today - violent action-packed pieces, or Walt Disney cartoons


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

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erazmus
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   Posted 3/14/2007 2:29 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I want to disclaim any attempts to have my gender shoulder complete responcibility for Hollywood and the video game industry's output. Violent = male isn't telling the whole story. Its like the persons who argue that women never go to war, all wars are started by men. Not entirely true-- Maggie Thatcher, Golda Meyier and Indira Ghandi all started wars.

The game industry and Hollywood all push a product that appeals to a simplistic mindset, but even the most wretchedly mindless, explosive ridden product brings in buyers of both genders. Lord Knows I've had to sit through enough evenings with my wife playing Doom and other video games of that ilk. My son's girlfriends bring over movies like "Bad Boys II".

It is just easier to make a product with explosions and monsters than dramatic tensions and compelling storytelling.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/14/2007 2:47 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
erazmus said...

It is just easier to make a product with explosions and monsters than dramatic tensions and compelling storytelling.
Mike


which was basically my point. That's what is coming out of hollywood as entertainment and that's what's being reflected in books, magazines and other media.

I don't think it has anything to do with gender. The schools are full of violent girls and boys. Homes are filled with violent husbands and wives and video games are filled with violent heros of both sexes.

I think it has a lot more to do with what is being marketed.

I remember reading an interview with the head of a company which produced especially violent and bloody comercials. I can't remember the product. He was bluntly asked 'why so much violence. Your product isn't even about violence' (it was something like luggage or something). He said that they had to grab the attention of people who were just channel surfing and get them to stick around long enough to watch the comercial. They didnt' care what the content was, they just wanted something that would visually shock a viewer into pausing the channel surf.

That seems to be how most of the entertainment mindset is these days.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/14/2007 4:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...

That seems to be how most of the entertainment mindset is these days.


Truethfully, that has been the mindset pretty much forever, with only temporary lapses into taste. Mass entertainment didn't start with television or even motion pictures. Both of those media got their start during a fairly purienical time and place.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 3/14/2007 4:21 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I can't tell you how long I've been cursing the Puppet Show for killing books!!!


Jordan Lapp

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/14/2007 5:08 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
I can't tell you how long I've been cursing the Puppet Show for killing books!!!


and video killed the radio star.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
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All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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TRtheJ
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   Posted 3/15/2007 3:06 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Melkor said...
How do you mean, TR? That men today prefer to have their media shown to them in a tangible way, like the pictures of comics, or the obvious visual element movies have?

I think that it is less men "prefer to have their media shown to them in a tangible way, like pictures in comics" as it is some men lack the imagination to visualize written word descriptions so they need comic books to visualize it for them, while others have just gotten lazy and don't want to put the mental effort to read a book when they can get it all in a 22 page comic book with pictures. I have met a number of the former and the latter.
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/15/2007 5:25 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think its an over-generalization, either way.

I also think there are other things influencing men, particularly young men, away from reading in general. Probably I have adequetly addressed this in another thread.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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Melkor
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   Posted 3/17/2007 8:16 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I dont like over generalizations either, which was my point in this thread. but I have indeed noticed men have gotten...well, lets just say the stereotypes are beginning to become reality. Men are tasteless pigs while women are artistic. It is a generalization, but you can definitely tell theres a tendency to that in the male population. Maybe as women are becoming more important figures in all aspects of society, men are becoming spoiled lol I mean, everytime a woman sees I am a reader, she is definitely impressed. But, even that is based on a common generalization of men. Humans do think in categories: any individual man is still in the category "man". Then, the person gets to know you and appreciates your inner self and all that crap.

I can accept these tendencies in movies, but when it comes to video games...thats another story. I think movies like Bad Boys have a video game equivalent in racing games, which are so ridiculously simplistic its mind numbing. But, even the action RPG is not mindless hacking and button mashing. Even if you have to fight in such games using reflexes, it is still how you have managed your skills and attributes that determines your victory or defeat. Even games like God of War and Halo need someone with a little artistic sensitivity to fully appreciate. Maybe Im alone here, but I think the story in Halo is amazing. Very confusing and obviously not rigorously thought out, but the image, the idea, is very interesting.

I sometimes dont understand how some guys can read comic books, interpret the drawings with detail and know exactly whats going on, but fiction is too much for them. I sometimes have to stare at a comic book panel for five minutes until I realize: "Oh, he got up and went up the stairs". Couldnt come up with a better example, but telling so much in four comic book panels is something that takes a lot of talent, and a good eye, I think, to tell exactly everything thats happening.


"By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers:.... For neither do men live nor die in vain" - H.G.Wells - The War of the Worlds

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/17/2007 8:31 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Melkor said...
I dont like over generalizations either, which was my point in this thread. but I have indeed noticed men have gotten...well, lets just say the stereotypes are beginning to become reality. Men are tasteless pigs while women are artistic.


Melkor said...

I sometimes dont understand how some guys can read comic books, interpret the drawings with detail and know exactly whats going on, but fiction is too much for them.


It's visual, so less to interpret. Text requires the mind to create a visual picture first, then interpret it.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
http://artwanted.com/crystalwizard

All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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erazmus
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   Posted 3/17/2007 11:46 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well the last bastion for catching the reading bug is probably gone. Servicemen living in tents in the desert now play games on their hand held devices to pass away the hours . . . .
I guess there is still prison, not where I was looking to recruit an audience.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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tchernabyelo
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   Posted 3/19/2007 7:54 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Even if you wanted to get a readership in prison, you might find it tricky.
 
I recall Jason Sizemore recently saying that he sent an issue of Apex Digest, on request, to a prisoner, but it was intercepted and returned as "material unsuitable".
 
Cycles come and go.   At some point, it's not impossible that reading could become "cool" again.   Certainly in the UK, Harry Potter revitalised books sales to children in general, and those who start reading early are more likely to stay with it.
 
 
 
On the more general point of this thread - business is business, and tends to find ways of making money.   If there were an untapped market out there for "manly" fiction, then somebody should have hit it by now.   However, it is possible that it is there and no-one's noticed; in which case, if you really believe the market is out there, set up a POD press and go for it.
 
For my part, I think it's a touch harsh to blame the changing tastes of the readership simply on women.   In fact, fantasy as a genre has mushroomed significantly precisely because of women readers.     


"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #19

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glutton
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   Posted 3/19/2007 9:54 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I seem to enjoy writing "manly" fiction with female characters. Not that my stuff necessarily fits well into the traditional sword-and-sorcery mold (maybe a bit too tongue-in-cheek for that), but it's definitely heroic fantasy with lots of adventure and violence. In my experience I've had equally good responses from women as men, so maybe more usage of female protagonists might be good for the genre's appeal for women? Hey, chicks can smash big guys and giant monsters too! Well, if they're burly and brutish enough (jk) smilewinkgrin

I'd point to Steven Pressfield's Last of the Amazons and Matthew Stover's Barra series as good "manly" fiction with strong feminine presences as well. Also Troy Denning's Cormyr series, even if it is DnD (Alusair ROCKS!)
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