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SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > New Tendencies in Sword&Sorcery

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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy

Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515

Posted 11/4/2006 1:52 AM (GMT -5)

Nice post, Erazmus....

Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

Wild Ape
Stablehand

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 41

Posted 11/4/2006 11:53 PM (GMT -5)

I hope she isn't anorexic. I like the full bodied female types more. Give me a Red Sonja and not a Barbie doll any day of the week.

erazmus
Master

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539

Posted 11/5/2006 12:06 PM (GMT -5)

Well, I suppose its time for a more realisticly built fantasy women. You get that on the edges-you should check out Halla Ironthighs adventures in the Chicks in Chainmail series, K.D. Wentworth does great things with a woman warrior who doesn't exactly fit anybodies cover painting.
But outside of comedy, you just don't see many fantasy characters who aren't , well, Hollywood-attractive. It is probably not going to last-- a small sampling of potential readers (done informally at the last Con I attended) leads me to believe that there's a market for full-sized women heros. I just haven't seen any in print that were written seriously, yet.
Mike

Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises

nathan
Sage

Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2122

Posted 11/5/2006 2:19 PM (GMT -5)

Lucy Lawless was full-sized.

VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews

Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

carnifexpress
Sage

Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 1314

Posted 11/5/2006 3:17 PM (GMT -5)

Its funny, I just re-found this thread and saw the latest posts about full-figured chicks... being a chubby chaser myself (yeah, I know, not very PC but who gives a shit, I like 'em big) I had written a short story for Freehold a couple of years ago with a big woman (in the 250 range) who has to face not only goblins but snickers from the men around her. I sne tit out to two magazines but it was rejected but they both thought the character was neat. I buried it with the other many Freehold short stories but now wonder if this is a Sign from On High to pull it back out and re-write it.

Armand Rosamilia

Visit Carnifex Press for more information!

http://www.CarnifexPress.net

Freehold short stories:

"Like A Thief In The Night" http://gryphonwood.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_gryphonwood_archive.html

"Dew Scented" Stalking Shadows anthology

The Freehold site is now up!

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/freehold

Dragon Angel
Lord Dragon

Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 1066

Posted 11/5/2006 4:12 PM (GMT -5)

Comedy's a tough sell. But it's a fun read!

read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html

Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.

MichaelEhart
Sage

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2336

Posted 11/5/2006 4:31 PM (GMT -5)

My "Servant of the Manthycore" protag isn't very barbiedoll--- scarred, short, well-muscled and nasty tempered.

I have nothing against beautiful women--- I'm married to one. But I like my fictional sword babes to have some grit.

"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007

"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007

"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007

"The View from the Shotglass Floor" T. N. Thomas' TimeFlash, January 2007

"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006

"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006

"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005

"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

erazmus
Master

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539

Posted 11/5/2006 8:42 PM (GMT -5)

Michael,
I'm not going to tear into you over that post, but . . .
I'm married to a woman who's short, scarred, muscular . . .and beautiful.
Mike

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4995

Posted 11/6/2006 12:24 AM (GMT -5)

erazmus said...
We don't really want or trust heros now-a-days.

I dunno. From what I've seen, there are still heros... they just tend to be the sort which would have been called villians 30 years or so ago. Bad has become good and good has become bad in a large part of society... and the heros have seem to have followed right along.

Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
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erazmus
Master

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539

Posted 11/6/2006 2:48 AM (GMT -5)

No one is allowed to be a hero any more. Every one coming into the public eye is scrutinized until some flaw can be found and exploited. Even our war is without heros. Have you seen a single report of any of the many citations for bravery given out in either Iraq or Afghanistan? A Marine Captain, now major, earned the navy cross during the invasion, did you hear? Not likely.
Mike

darkbow
Rabbit lord

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1696

Posted 11/6/2006 4:05 AM (GMT -5)

Hmm ... about the only ground troop I can think of in this war who was sort of accepted as a hero was Jessica Lynch, and that's been ... what? Three years ago?

www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4995

Posted 11/6/2006 4:21 AM (GMT -5)

But then you have all the various movies who show case gangsters, criminals and no-goods. You have various muscians who are idlolized by the mass public and who biggest draw is how foul mouthed they are. Those people... the chracters in the movies, the muscians and others like them are held up as 'great people' 'role models' and are definately heros to their adoring public.

>No one is allowed to be a hero

we don't have the kind of person you consider hero material any more. But there are lots that ARE heros now. Like I said, bad is good, good is bad these days.

James Enge
Maker

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 209

Posted 11/6/2006 9:31 AM (GMT -5)

Mike Erhart said...
No one is allowed to be a hero any more.

We have celebrities instead.

I think that it's a survival mechanism to be suspicious of heroes with a media presence. When someone is promoted as a hero through the media, it's usually by someone who has an axe to grind. I try to keep my eye on the axe.

But what about firemen and other first responders? Or WWII vets? We have heroes; they just usually don't have press agents.

JE

James Enge

"Turn Up This Crooked Way" (selected by Rich Horton for his "Virtual Best" of 2005) in Black Gate 8

"Payment Deferred" in Black Gate 9

"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6

"The Red Worm's Way" in Flashing Swords E-Zine Annual

"A Book of Silences" forthcoming in Black Gate 10

erazmus
Master

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539

Posted 11/6/2006 11:57 AM (GMT -5)

Actually, I think its been a media decision not to "promote" heros. Especially in the war. The military provides press releases (and always has, going back to the spanish american war) on any medals earned, they send them out to all the newspaper and television services, and to each soldiers home town news paper. Thats for anything that brings a Silver Star or higher. So far the only papers and TVStations to cover them have been the military operated ones- Stars and Stripes and AFRTS.
OTOH, congress has pretty much decided that we won't be handing out the Medal of Honor to anyone who actually survives the incident cited for. I won't speculate on the reasons.
And in my mind, we have never made "heros" out of our movie actors-- though I'll grant John Wayne and Clark Gable came close. Actors did, however, portray heros. Back in the way back when, anyway. There are still heros portrayed on film, though mostly by Mel Gibson (The swamp Fox in _The Patriot_ and William Wallace in _Braveheart_) and I think the title character in _V_ might qualify, in a fantasy sort of way.
Mike

Frank Menser
Earth Tourist

Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 304

Posted 11/6/2006 3:26 PM (GMT -5)

I think the term "Hero" has been done to death...or at least to the point that the meaning no longer has the prestige it used to have. Pretty much like the term "star." Now you have to be a super star to be noticed.

When we started handing it out to football, basketball, baseball celebreties it lost much--especially when some of those "Heroes" were anything but off the playing field. Then two came the P/c crowd with "everyone is a Hero."

As to the war (I am going to try to avoid politics-I hope). This now has the controversy of Viet Nam. I speculate the government would like to end this as quietly as possible and hope for some good news as they leave.

As to the women....My Heroine in my first novel: SIDEWAYS IN TIME and it's sequal (don't bother looking they haven't sold yet). Is a Lakota woman who is an assassin. She is stocky muscular and about 5'6" and quote: "has a figure that would never fit a dress."

It's just my imagination...running away with me.

Coming soon, BREATHE in DREADED PALL magazine.

James Enge
Maker

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 209

Posted 11/6/2006 3:48 PM (GMT -5)

I don't mean to bark contradictions at you, Mike, but there were a couple of attempts to make media heroes out of the current set of wars the US is conducting: Jessica Lynch, in the Iraq War, and Pat Tillman, in the Afghan War. I wouldn't say that either one of these soldiers was unheroic, but both their stories were distorted (not accidentally, in my view) and it's natural that people would be wary of falling prey to deception from the same source.

Heroes are the product of cultural unanimity, too, and we're not unanimous about much these days, particularly the Iraq War. Looking back to 9/11, though, there are the passengers and crew of United 93. They laid down their lives to save others, which would seem to be the acid test for heroism. Everyone has heard the phrase "Let's roll" in this context (even if Beamer never exactly said that), and it's likely to join the pantheon of American heroic sayings ("Damn the torpedoes" etc.; "Nuts!"; "I regret that I have only one life" etc.).

If we don't have heroes nowadays, we certainly hunger for them. Practically every one of the all-time top 25-grossing movies focuses on a hero or heroes. (I was just looking at the list at IMdB-- it's not like I knew this offhand.)

In short, I think people want what we've got to offer (heroic fantasy)... if we can do it right and if we can get it to the audience somehow.

JE

erazmus
Master

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539

Posted 11/6/2006 5:14 PM (GMT -5)

Yes, yes! exactly what I was hoping would be mentioned. Heros, in lit not in history, have not totally died out and I think they are due to make a comeback in a big way. Just not in the same way as before.
I don't think the coming heros will be as . . .stiff as the old ones were. They may not take themselves as seriously as earlier icons did. I expect they'll follow quite a different path to victory than earlier prototypes did, especially in S&S.
I forsee an era of heros who don't actually get credit for their deeds (echoing the current situation) or who end up credited with much greater deeds than they've accomplished. There's very little a sell sword can do about whats whispered about him in the marketplace, for good or ill. We've seen some of that all ready (Lackey's heroines in _By the Sword_, for one.) But I think todays sophistication reguarding popular acclaim wll be reflected in the tales we write about our heros.
Mike

Wild Ape
Stablehand

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 41

Posted 11/6/2006 9:56 PM (GMT -5)

This has been a good back and forth between erazmus and James. The heroes of the day will have the values of the times and answer the call to the problems of the day. I think erazmus is right in that people are itching for heroes. They may be getting it through literature because the real life ones are too fallible.

Now back to the chicks in chainmail. There is something about a saucy female that trips my wire. The little Miss Muffet types are a bit too tame. A hot feline with a bit of an adventure streak is just more fun.

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