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| SFReader Forums > Book, Magazine, and eZine Publishers > Flashing Swords > New Tendencies in Sword&Sorcery | Forum Quick Jump
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
      
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056
| Posted 9/17/2006 9:15 PM (GMT -5) |   | nathan said...
Sean, not arguing with you, trying to agree, but with caveats. I know you didn't agree with how far I went in this direction in Blood Price - and I think it a fair assesment.
However it is also the one story where people took the time to email me about how unexpected such a protaganist was and how it made them remember the story (as example only).
Who's 'right' and who's 'wrong'?
Neither I would say. Simply taste and if there exists a niche for that taste -- and if meeting that niche can be profitable for editors.
Hope that made sense and didn't sound argumentative.
Nathan, Sean - Maybe I'm just too tired, but I didn't understand this. What didn't you (Sean) agree with in Nathan's The Blood Price? And what's 'how far I went in this direction' mean? And again, who's saying your Crolec Fenrir guy is such an unexpected protagonist?
What the hell, I liked the guy and the story and the setting and the . . . there was nothing out of the ordinary (sorry, Nathan, don't take that personally!) in this story; it was well-imagined and crafted. I personally prefer long stories - the two-ton doorstops so many complain about - over short stories any day, so one of my mental games is trying to transfer a character, locale, idea, whatever from short form to long to see how it'd work. I'd read a book about Crolec without a second thought.
That being said, I consider myself pretty well read, but the longer I'm here the more names - book titles and authors - I find I don't know and haven't read. Mostly all the S&S stuff. And here I've been accepted into the S&S critique group - I'm starting to feel unprepared (HA! - ever since I saw the names in this session I've been feeling unsure and insecure). I'm also one of those readers and writers who likes magic and swords; I've no preference of one over the other nor a total disregard for magic like I know many readers do. I started this whole writing adventure as a novelist and have progressed?/transgressed? into short stories. My shorts run the gamut of high fantasy to s&s while my novel seems to be a combination. That's my current bent, to try and combine the best of both genres and write my way.
In the end, I guess that's all we can do.
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2122
| Posted 9/17/2006 9:34 PM (GMT -5) | | Howard - Sean can speak for himself and I'm only jumping in here because I was the one who was too personal in a general-post, so I don't want Sean to feel like he has to 'defend' himself (if that's even the right term) from anything.
Sean didn't much care for Crolec as the 'hero' of a story. Like some he felt the business transaction of the 'Blood Price' -- hence the title-- bordered too much on coerced sex: that is I wrote it as sex for death and many (certainly Sean was not alone) interruprted this as coerced sex, even rape.
My main point (in an attempt to bring the above discussion into more personal, concrete terms) was that feedback on a short story is pretty rare in a 1-on-1 sense (for me anyway) from people who cruise FS, find the FS thread and take the time to write me and say "hey you suck" or "hey that was great!".
My first story Blood Meridian and then my 3rd, Blood Price troubled a lot of people, not just reviewers. By troubled I also mean many scoffed <g> Both are admittedly hyper-macho and meant to be so, without apology. My 2nd story in FS "Prayer of the Warrior" which won 3rd place in a PB contest is probablly the most accessible and technically 'clean' story of my triumverate. Private Reader Response = 0, goose egg. It was gory and fast but not a hint of true un-PC stuff in there. Though there was a witch, she was female and she was ethically challenged.
Most of the reponses were (and I'm not saying there were dozens, don't get me wrong) about how non-mamby-pamby and sissy those two stories were and how it is harder to find that ambiguous hero as much any more. Even rouges are not Kane rouges but more heart-of-gold Han Solo rouges -- ect, ect [edit: to paraphrase crudely]. Like we're talking about in this thread.
All I was [trying to] saying was hey, you didn't care for that story, but others did. Those others must be an insight on this new or reocurring "tendencies" in S&S or fantasy and even if we did or didn't like it how would we (as readers and writers) handle this trend.
Sean wasn't slamming me, nor I crying foul about his honestly given opinion. I was trying to make the argument pertinent to the discussion.
Sean if I got it wrong please scream, I only mean well.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056
| Posted 9/17/2006 10:20 PM (GMT -5) | | Hey, I didn't take it as a slam or a defense and I am by no means mocking either you or Sean. I just wasn't following that post. As far as your stories, I've only read your two Blood ones (anything behind that?) and didn't have a problem with either one. Perhaps I am too practical, but in Blood Price I never considered that a rape. The queen came asking him to do an unsavory deed for her. He named his price - another unsavory deed - and she accepted. While she may not have wanted the sex, per se, she accepted the sex as necessary to get what she wanted. How is that any different than the countless stories of female spies and assassins playing the role of whores or love interests and giving up their bodies to gain access to places they otherwise wouldn't get? It's not like Crolec took her by force and then said he'd think about it.
I don't know, this just didn't bother me at all; didn't even enter my head as a prob, to be honest. And don't read this to mean I'm anti-woman or into 'rape' or whatever you wanna read into it. There was a lot of background there to be had, if a reader cared to see it, that set this up anyway. The era, the location, the background story of how Crolec came to power, the fact a woman, let alone a queen, came the way she did to make such a request . . . those are just the surface things and I don't need to defend myself here so I'll stop.
To me, this was a terrific story; your Blood Meridian was exciting and entertaining but ultimately of lesser interest to me. It's been awhile since I read it, so I can't put my finger on anything specifically positive or negative. I'm personally having a problem right now with a story that's been heavily pushed on this forum - I was asked to review it and I've read it but I don't know how to say what I'm thinking. I liked the story, too, just not all the presentation. So, when I compare this story and that one, I'm at a loss why anyone would have a problem with Crolec.
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2122
| Posted 9/17/2006 10:44 PM (GMT -5) | |
Suuran Songforge said...No, no, that's pretty much it. I generally didn't really *like* (as a matter of personal taste) the story because I didn't have anyone to root for--just one murderin', rapin' cannibal against another. That's...kind of a forthright way of putting it. For the record, I think you're a great writer, and I did enjoy "A Warrior's Prayer". No offense of any sort taken by me :wink: .
Nope that's a pretty good assesment. We disagree on the Queen but what the hey.
However..."no one to root for"?
Oh man, you cynical kids.  Here you had a warrior in the twilight of his years who gained wealth and power on one bloody roll of the dice only to discover that it's not the prize but the journey that he loved along.
[The journey in this case being the use of canabilism and torture to defeat an enemy twice his size only to go down fighting a god  ]
This was a gooey nostalgia story about not "Going Quietly Into That Dark Night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light!" (in fact that was almost the title--okay it wasn't)
Howard I knew you weren't slamming anyone, and so did Sean, I'm sure
Blood Merridian was only my 2nd published story and written a couple of years ago -- it may be I was just 'younger' in writing then and that's why it didn't grab you as much. Maybe you like Vikings better than Pirates, lol?
Though Blood Price is only six months older or so than that, and "Prayer" the "newest" -- funny how publishing doesn't always follow writing, lol.
On a topic closer to the thread. There is a reason why you read the Queen as I intended and Sean saw it through his eyes. Those differences in reading (and Sean was not alone) is probablly a microcosm of the factors behind this thread in general.
I don't know what those factors are and I don't want to put a single story, ecspecially mine as I then sound pompous, as the focus.
I was just personalizing the discussion to see if that shed some illumination.
In a way it has: the answer is taste. Which seems a little pat and leaves us with nothing to talk about, lol, which sucks 'cause I love picking smart people's minds about literary trends.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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Dan Nelson
Hermit Troll
Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 137
| Posted 9/17/2006 10:51 PM (GMT -5) | | | I'd like to pipe in and say that I thought the story was fine. My comments in this thread are meant more generically and were not directed at Nathan's story. | | Back to Top | | |
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Dan Nelson
Hermit Troll
Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 137
| Posted 9/17/2006 11:11 PM (GMT -5) | | Could this trend be linked into the end of the cold war and the relative peaceful period here in the US that included things like not using unsavory people in the intelligence gathering arena which then gives way to sept. 11 - war on terrorism. For many people, grimmer times may make the white hat syndrome in movies and fiction not seem real or possible. I suppose it could be argued that people may want to have heroes more than ever, but when the general population realizes what some people will do and the conditions that make up some lives, then it is easier to imagine the ruthless and the amoral and listen to those stories.
Unfortunately, I am not one of the smart people in this thread but it is a thought. | | Back to Top | | |
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056
| Posted 9/17/2006 11:50 PM (GMT -5) | | I do like Vikings better than pirates, mate! And my apologies for steering this thread away from its topic. I got lost and needed a roadmap back, is all.
Trend . . . rather a hard thing to pin down, I think. Off the top of my head I come up with 4 basic types of fantasy readers: The established fantasy readers who've been around and know what they like - (1) those that prefer minimalist magic, generally those who pick S&S and (2) those who choose magic, or magic and might, over just plain might, generally those who read the elfin/farmboy hero type sagas. Then there are the newer fantasy readers - (3) those who were brought in by Harry Potter/Eragon (again, high/epic type fantasy) and would be devestated at the least or nondiscerning in quality at the best by S&S or Dark Fantasy and (4) those brought to the genre by the LOTR, superhero, and POTC movies who will be a bit more escapist or daring than the former newbies, more willing to endorse the angst-ridden anti-heros in S&S, Dark Fantasy and Horror Fantasy.
So, how do you write for each of those? Which one dominates and will dominate? Money right now is in group #3 although best-sellers still abound in group #2, but I think the population count is heaviest in group #4. Personally, I know the most people in group #2, but I'm running into/meeting more people in group #1 almost weekly. Yet who am I to offer advice in this area? Feel free to ignore my babbling as I've nothing published, just rejections thus far. So far, I'm writing what I want to, what I feel the need to. Actually, if any of this made sense, let me know. If it didn't, I don't wanna know about it! ;)
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Euan H.
Thug
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 241
| Posted 9/18/2006 12:11 AM (GMT -5) | |
James Enge said...
With that being said, I'm not crazy about a lot of the stuff they're publishing lately. The editor seems committed to putting into print every piece of verbal snot that Robert Reed flings over his transom, for instance, and I find his devotion to the work of Matthew Hughes almost equally mystifying.
But then you get things like Hallucigenia in the June issue, which was the best horror story I've read in years, perhaps ever.
Some of what appears in F&SF leaves me cold, but it's all extremely well written, IMO.
As for the Blood Price, I enjoyed it. No, the protagonist was not a likeable person, but then neither was Sigurd or Beowulf. I thought his character fit the tone and setting of the story very neatly.
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Dan Nelson
Hermit Troll
Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 137
| Posted 9/18/2006 12:23 PM (GMT -5) | | | Maybe I am not getting something here, Howard says, "those that prefer minimalist magic, generally those who pick S&S". This idea of S&S as non-magical I am not understanding, I seem to see a lot of wizards, etc. in S&S. Usually, they are the opponent, so is the idea that the protagonist does not use magic but uses might and brawn and skillfull swordsmanship. It is Sword and "Sorcery". | | Back to Top | | |
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Supr
Neophyte
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 107
| Posted 9/18/2006 12:31 PM (GMT -5) | | I think you must be very carefully by using magic in Sword&Sorcery, otherwise you can overdo  | | Back to Top | | |
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James Enge
Maker
Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 209
| Posted 9/18/2006 3:05 PM (GMT -5) | | About magic in S&S:
Lester Del Rey said some wise things about fantasy, among them, "If anything can happen, who cares what does?" (I googled this statement, assuming it would be all over the internet, but couldn't find the quote, so either I'm misremembering it or it's more obscure than I thought.) This certainly applies to S&S-- so that if the hero has magic armor that protects him from the magic fireballs of the villain and the hero uses a magic banana-skin to trip up the magical non-skid workboots of the wizard, the reader will soon drop the magical story in the magical trashcan. But I think Dan Nelson is certainly right: if magic or some kind of fantastic content isn't central to the plot, it's not S&S but something else.
About Robert Reed (whom Euan H. stoutly defends):
I didn't mean to imply that everything RR writes is verbal snot, and for a while I was worried that my blast of vinegar had killed people's appetite for conversation on this thread. (Not Nathan Meyer's, though: thanks for the kind words, Nathan.) I haven't read "Hallucigenia"; the stories I was thinking of were "Poet Snow" (June 2005) and "Show Me Yours" (May 2006), both of which seemed to me sub-professional in quality. These stories (and some others by GVG's stable of writers) were what made me decide to stop picking up F&SF from newsstands even occasionally: it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile investment of time anymore.
EH says that the stuff in F&SF is "all extremely well written" and in a way, I guess, I agree. You certainly don't expect someone writing in that magazine to make vulgar stylistic errors. But if "well-written" refers to stuff other than style, I guess I can't agree. F&SF stories routinely have storytelling problems. I'd expand on this, but I've probably driven enough nails into my semi-professional coffin for one afternoon...
JE
James Enge
"Turn Up This Crooked Way" (selected by Rich Horton for his "Virtual Best" of 2005) in Black Gate 8
"Payment Deferred" in Black Gate 9
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6
"A Book of Silences" forthcoming in Black Gate 10 | | Back to Top | | |
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056
| Posted 9/18/2006 7:36 PM (GMT -5) | | Dan Nelson said...
Maybe I am not getting something here, Howard says, "those that prefer minimalist magic, generally those who pick S&S". This idea of S&S as non-magical I am not understanding, I seem to see a lot of wizards, etc. in S&S. Usually, they are the opponent, so is the idea that the protagonist does not use magic but uses might and brawn and skillfull swordsmanship. It is Sword and "Sorcery".
Sorry, Dan, you're right in that I left something out - I didn't mean S&S was non-magical, I meant those are readers who prefer their magic to be on the opposing side and that the brain of the brute hero is able to not only dare oppose it but somehow defeat it. It's the underdog fascination, I guess.
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Euan H.
Thug
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 241
| Posted 9/18/2006 11:57 PM (GMT -5) | |
James Enge said...
About Robert Reed (whom Euan H. stoutly defends): I do? Hallucigenia was by Laird Barron. I honestly can't remember the Robert Reed stories. They can't have made that big an impression.
James Enge said...
But if "well-written" refers to stuff other than style, I guess I can't agree. Hm. Yes, the stories in F&SF have a particular style, but the magazine publishes "literary" SFF (as someone wrote in the wikipedia entry for it). It's the SFF equivalent of the New Yorker. IMO, as I said, everything in it is technically very good--but like I also said, a fair chunk of it leaves me cold.
If short story magazines were food, then F&SF would be an expensive French restaurant, Black Gate would be a steakhouse, and RoF would be a shiny-chrome-and-glass affair.
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Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1276
| Posted 9/20/2006 3:09 PM (GMT -5) | | Wow ... great discussion!
I have to chime in with Sean on this one. Most of the time, I have to have a protagonist I like in order to get through the story. Not always -- I have my dark, anti-social times and then I pick up Kane or write something bleak and horrific (for instance, the sci-fi piece I'm hoping to sell some day.) But in general, I want my heroes to be at least a little heroic or at least recognizeably human. They might have a vastly alien worldview, one that justifies brutality and slaughter, but there should be a nugget of humanity in there. I'm not often interested in reading or writing about mere killing machines.
One other thing: I love a good bloody fictional battle and a lot of physical conflict, but what interests me most are the <strong>reasons</strong> behind those conflicts. <strong>Why</strong> the characters are fighting is more important to me than <strong>how</strong> they are fighting or even graphic descriptions of the fighting (although I love the visceral kick one gets from reading a great fight scene). I think this may be one way to move sword-and-sorcery to the next level and, perhaps, enhance its appeal to readers who have stayed away until now. Deeper characters, deeper worlds -- and then a whole lot of bloodshed and lopped off heads! We can contemplate the meaning of life and the mysteries of the universe and still smear a lot of blood across the pages ...
-- Steve
Steve Goble
Visit www.stevegoble.com for news on upcoming stories or to visit my blog | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 9/20/2006 8:30 PM (GMT -5) | | | I honestly can't remember the Robert Reed stories.
***
Oh, he had a great one a couple years back in F&SF about a guy who carves his dead wife's likeness into his lawn with a riding lawn mower. Love that exquisite F&SF cuisine!!!
Are you sure F&SF isn't just more like expensive diet food, you know like designer weight loss? The "Jenny Craig" of SF pubs.... Lose all that speculative and adventure flab!
Daniel
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Euan H.
Thug
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 241
| Posted 9/21/2006 12:08 AM (GMT -5) | |
Daniel said...
Oh, he had a great one a couple years back in F&SF about a guy who carves his dead wife's likeness into his lawn with a riding lawn mower.
And? So what? Is that premise so flawed it can't make a good story? Am I still supposed to be defending Robert Reed when I've said that I can't remember any of his stories? Twice?
Daniel said...
Love that exquisite F&SF cuisine!!! I do. Which is why I subscribe to it--as well as Black Gate and RoF, as well as reading a bunch of other short fiction sites, one of which is Flashing Swords.
Daniel said...
Lose all that speculative and adventure flab!
No offence, but the first half of this is crap. Point me to a story in F&SF with *no* speculative elements, and I'll be surprised. The second half . . . well, yeah, there's no adventure in the F&SF stories, but that means they're not adventure stories, and not a whole lot more than that. Pretty much every Lovecraft story revolved around the same situation: bookish man sees something alien, goes insane. Not much adventure there. But to then say that Lovecraft stories aren't SFF because they have no adventure is ridiculous.
If people want adventure fiction, then they shouldn't read F&SF, because they won't find it. If they think that makes F&SF bad, then they're idiots. If they think it makes F&SF not to their taste, then that's up to them. Personally, I disagree with them. I think F&SF has some damn fine writing, and I know I've learned things by taking apart stories published there. It also has a bunch of stuff that does nothing for me . . . but then so does every other venue. Black Gate and RoF have some damn fine writing too--and I've also learned a bunch by dissecting stories in both those places. And like F&SF, they too have stories that leave me cold.
The point of comparing them to food is this:
Sometimes I want steak, and sometim | |
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