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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/9/2008 2:32 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Stuff that is repeatable, demonstrable, and not provable by science.


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Nicholas
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   Posted 5/9/2008 2:40 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan said...
Guilty.

But I became that way because I long for real magic and if it exists at all, it's awash in a sea of charlatans.
I feel your pain. That is why I am probably one of the most skeptical supernaturalists you'll ever meet. My wife and I regularly and avidly watch programs like Ghost Hunters and Most Haunted. Even though we find ourselves positing natural explanations for virtually every "phenomenon" presented, still we watch...because, as Mulder's poster famously declared, "[We] want to believe."
 
crystalwizard said...
As was real medicine 200 years ago.
 
Good point. And, given some of the pills pedaled by the pharmeceutical companies these days, I'd say it still is!


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/9/2008 2:47 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
Stuff that is repeatable, demonstrable, and not provable by science.


Unfortunately, Jordan, while it might not be provable by science right now, since we live in a realm of existence that is mathematical in nature and has complex but specific laws governing it, anything like that will eventually be provable by science.

A flashlight run by solar batteries is something you can conceive of and probably figure out how to make.

300 years ago the concept was pure magic.

What you want DOES exist, but unfortunately by the time we puny humans have figured out how to make it work consistantly, we're also going to have gotten to the point of being able to explain why it works.

I'll go back to my question about light now (that everyone ignored), and expand on it

light particles/waves

Light still has no solid explanation. It acts as a particle (when measured that way). It acts as a wave (when measured that way)

It is neither and we can't measure it. All we can do is measure it's effect on our physical existence AND we've also figured out how to make it cause the effect we want when we want it.

Teleportation exists and can be done in the lab with small particles. But while that concept was magic quite a while back (and still is to a lot of people) in order to use it we have to explain it and that takes ... science.
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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/9/2008 2:53 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...

Light still has no solid explanation. It acts as a particle (when measured that way). It acts as a wave (when measured that way)

It is neither and we can't measure it. All we can do is measure it's effect on our physical existence AND we've also figured out how to make it cause the effect we want when we want it.

Teleportation exists and can be done in the lab with small particles. But while that concept was magic quite a while back (and still is to a lot of people) in order to use it we have to explain it and that takes ... science.
We can measure light. It's measured in lumens.


Jordan Lapp
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Nicholas
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   Posted 5/9/2008 3:01 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How many lumens does it take to change a lightbulb?
 
 

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/9/2008 3:23 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
We can measure light. It's measured in lumens.


That's not a real measurement. That just tells you what sort of effect you'll get out of it.

That is a measurement of it's effect on specific things in this physical realm. However light does far more than just make it possible for you to take pictures and see.
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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:03 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just a brief interlude, if I may, to respond to a comment about scientists and their naturalistic reductionist worldview that "won't allow for the possibility of a supernatural explanation."

This is a common misconception. Yes, when doing science, a scientist must stick with natural, measurable things in seeking explanations. It's a necessary component of doing science. You can't possibly do science any other way. If you allow for causes that can't be measured or observed, you allow for EVERYTHING ... and the scientific method falls completely, hopelessly, utterly apart.

That does NOT mean, however, that a scientist automatically refuses to even consider the slightest possibility of a supernatural explanation for a phenomenon. A scientist is just as capable of believing he saw a ghost, or received an ESP communication, or of believing in a Creator, as anyone else. The scientist will not say that such explanations are SCIENTIFICALLY plausible, but he darn well might think the big dark shape he saw in the woods was Bigfoot, or that the noise in the attic was his dead Aunt Bessie. Being a scientist, he naturally will seek natural explanations for such things. If he finds such, being a scientist, he will lean that way. Occam's Razor, you know. Which is more likely, the wind banging a shutter or someone coming back from the dead? Bigfoot, or tired eyes deceiving their owner?

If a scientist finds no natural explanations, however, he will simply say "Science can't explain this." But he might well go right on being convinced his dead Aunt Bessie is making noise in the attic, or the thing in the woods was Bigfoot, while wishing he had some solid evidence to back that up -- or that he could even think of a way to possibly garner such evidence. That's the sticking point with supernatural explanations. By definition, science CAN'T do anything with them. It doesn't necessarily make supernatural explanations WRONG; it simply makes them beyond science. And a scientist who himself has NOT experienced a supernatural something-or-other is completely justified in remaining skeptical. That's particularly true in the realm of ghost stories and Bigfoot sightings. The number of cases that can be shown to have been hoaxes, or to have very simple explanations, makes it very difficult for a scientist to make the leap to a supernatural explanation if he hasn't had such an experience himself. But if he says "ghosts don't exist" or "There is no Bigfoot," he is being a bit arrogant, and will likely realize it and concede that he is being arrogant if pressed. Then he will amend his statement to "There is no scientific evidence for ..." etc. etc. etc.

I interject this because it's a frequent sticking point. People hear a scientist say "there is no evidence for A, B or C" and automatically assume that means the scientist is saying "A, B or C do not exist." Not quite the same thing, really. Scientists who have a strong religious faith, for example, run into that all the time. So ... I thought I'd point out the difference between a priori dismissal and simply recognizing that sometimes, there is no measurable evidence. (Of course, a priori dismissal does happen sometimes, because scientists are human, too. But overall, they actually are a rather open-minded bunch. They are just really persnickety about evidence.)

OK. Carry on.


Steve Goble

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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:10 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
CW: All we can do is measure ANYTHING'S effect on our physical existence. If you can't measure light, by your definition, you can't measure water, either. All we can do is measure water's effect on our physical existence; it fills the bucket or it doesn't, it makes me wet or it doesn't, it quenches my thirst or it doesn't.

I think you are using the term "measure" in some way that either I don't understand, or else that has no practical real-world value.

I can measure light, because I can see it. And I can tell that bulb over there on my left is brighter than the one over here on my right. I can tell when light is there, and I can tell when it goes away. Light is a thing that exists and I know it is there and I can measure it. I don't have to understand what it is made of or what causes it, but I can sure as heck measure it, or show it to someone else, or bend it to my will by flipping a switch or pointing a flashlight.

So, I'm probably missing your point entirely or something, because I can't tell where you're going with this.


Steve Goble

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:11 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You can also measure the effect when a photon hits a subatomic particle....


Jordan Lapp
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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:13 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Or when light trips a photoelectric cell ...


Steve Goble

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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:14 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... and you can manufacture a bulb to produce X amount of light ...


Steve Goble

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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:16 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... and sort stars by their magnitude ...


Steve Goble

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:16 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And you can measure the frequency/amplitude of the wavelength of light (ie where it is in the spectrum)


Jordan Lapp
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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:16 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... or divide it into spectra ...


Steve Goble

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:17 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
....Check out a tan....


Jordan Lapp
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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:18 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... or bend it with mirrors ...


Steve Goble

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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:19 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... photograph selected wavelengths via filters ...


Steve Goble

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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:19 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... make shadow puppets ...


Steve Goble

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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:21 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... measure the distance of galaxies by the Doppler shift in the light coming from them ...


Steve Goble

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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:21 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... we can measure the speed at which light travels ...


Steve Goble

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:23 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
E=mc^2


Jordan Lapp
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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:23 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But, really, one of the very best uses for light is checking out a tan. That's enough to make me pro-light right there!


Steve Goble

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Anthony G Williams
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   Posted 5/9/2008 4:44 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Swashbuckler said...
Just a brief interlude, if I may, to respond to a comment about scientists and their naturalistic reductionist worldview that "won't allow for the possibility of a supernatural explanation."

This is a common misconception. Yes, when doing science, a scientist must stick with natural, measurable things in seeking explanations. It's a necessary component of doing science. You can't possibly do science any other way. If you allow for causes that can't be measured or observed, you allow for EVERYTHING ... and the scientific method falls completely, hopelessly, utterly apart.

That does NOT mean, however, that a scientist automatically refuses to even consider the slightest possibility of a supernatural explanation for a phenomenon. A scientist is just as capable of believing he saw a ghost, or received an ESP communication, or of believing in a Creator, as anyone else. The scientist will not say that such explanations are SCIENTIFICALLY plausible, but he darn well might think the big dark shape he saw in the woods was Bigfoot, or that the noise in the attic was his dead Aunt Bessie. Being a scientist, he naturally will seek natural explanations for such things. If he finds such, being a scientist, he will lean that way. Occam's Razor, you know. Which is more likely, the wind banging a shutter or someone coming back from the dead? Bigfoot, or tired eyes deceiving their owner?

If a scientist finds no natural explanations, however, he will simply say "Science can't explain this." But he might well go right on being convinced his dead Aunt Bessie is making noise in the attic, or the thing in the woods was Bigfoot, while wishing he had some solid evidence to back that up -- or that he could even think of a way to possibly garner such evidence. That's the sticking point with supernatural explanations. By definition, science CAN'T do anything with them. It doesn't necessarily make supernatural explanations WRONG; it simply makes them beyond science. And a scientist who himself has NOT experienced a supernatural something-or-other is completely justified in remaining skeptical. That's particularly true in the realm of ghost stories and Bigfoot sightings. The number of cases that can be shown to have been hoaxes, or to have very simple explanations, makes it very difficult for a scientist to make the leap to a supernatural explanation if he hasn't had such an experience himself. But if he says "ghosts don't exist" or "There is no Bigfoot," he is being a bit arrogant, and will likely realize it and concede that he is being arrogant if pressed. Then he will amend his statement to "There is no scientific evidence for ..." etc. etc. etc.

I interject this because it's a frequent sticking point. People hear a scientist say "there is no evidence for A, B or C" and automatically assume that means the scientist is saying "A, B or C do not exist." Not quite the same thing, really. Scientists who have a strong religious faith, for example, run into that all the time. So ... I thought I'd point out the difference between a priori dismissal and simply recognizing that sometimes, there is no measurable evidence. (Of course, a priori dismissal does happen sometimes, because scientists are human, too. But overall, they actually are a rather open-minded bunch. They are just really persnickety about evidence.)

OK. Carry on.

You beat me to it - I was mentally composing just such a response (although not as good) before I read this.
 
I consider that I have an open mind about such matters, because I am always willing to be convinced if there is adequate evidence (repeatability being the key, as Jordan said). What I won't do is believe in anything which currently seems to be impossible or inexplicable without adequate evidence. But that evidence could, of course, emerge overnight. And if it did, I'd be happy to accept it.
 
Personally I'd love to believe that the Loch Ness Monster exists. The idea of a prehistoric beast, a left-over from the age of dinosaurs still surviving in the deep lake, is a wonderfully romantic notion. However, apart from the totally inadequate and easily fakable evidence, there is the inconvenient fact that during the last Ice Age, which ended only 10,000 years ago, Loch Ness was filled right to the bottom with solid ice. Which does rather knock the notion on the head.
 
Another interesting case is that of crop circles, which were very much the fashionable mystery 20 years ago. It was interested enough to buy a book on it and watch various TV programmes. There were two camps of strongly-held opinion; those who insisted it was a natural phenomenon and those who were convinced it was done by alien visitors. I didn't belong to either camp, I was just curious. What really changed matters was when they stopped being simple circles and started forming complex patterns. I well recall one programme when the chief exponent of the natural explanation was tying himself in knots trying to explain how natural phenomena could cause such patterns: it was obvious he was wrong. Shortly afterwards it was of course revealed to be an elaborate hoax. However, there is the fact that records of simple crop circles go back centuries, so I have an open mind about whether there is some very rare natural phenomenon which might occasionally cause those.
 
Show me the evidence and I will happily believe - but it needs to be solid, objective evidence! nono
 
 


Tony Williams
Scales (2007), The Foresight War (2004)
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RoberII
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   Posted 5/9/2008 7:23 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You know, being a hypnotist, I have to chime in:

The mind is capable of doing some incredible things. You can make people forget the number six, thus causing them to count to eleven fingers. You can give people hour long orgasms (that one is pretty fun, BTW ;) )

People have been operated with hypnosis as the only anastetic. As such, it relies entirely on the placebo effect - it's real because we think it is real.

There is every reason to believe that acupuncture works the same way. And that the belief in Chi works the same way, too - the belief makes it real.

The mind very much has the ability to tell the body to shut up and sit down. So if the belief in Chi allows you to move faster or hit harder, there is nothing supernatural about that.
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/9/2008 8:39 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Swashbuckler said...
... and you can manufacture a bulb to produce X amount of light ...


Right. To quote myself, we've figured out how to make it cause the effect we want it to.

however, I'll repeat, we can't measure it. We can measure how much effect it has on different things.

You used the word 'photon'. Is it a particle or a wave? It can be measured as both. The fact is, it's neither but depending on the measurement being used, 'it' (whatever it actually is) can produce the effect of one or the other.

There in lies the actual problem. The tools we have right now, and most of the people trying to use those tools, insist on looking at everything as if it were solid matter. Has to be solid matter, can't be anything else.

Until things get small enough and then... nothing is solid. Little bits of positive, negative (and other) energy.

Now apply that to the original comment. "ghosts and paranormal/supernatural phenomenon must be measurable". They are... but not by the tools available in the labs today.
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