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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Anything Goes! > Internal power/energy is real??? | Forum Quick Jump
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MysticWino
anarchist fringe monkey boddhisatva
      
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1600
| Posted 5/8/2008 11:19 AM (GMT -4) |   |
Anthony G Williams said...
ailments, a whole culture and mystique would grow up around it - that's the human way! After all, unless real knowledge and skill was required to apply acupuncture, there would be no living for acupuncturists... There is a great deal of skill and knowledge required for it, and there are a heck of a lot of people making a living from it. Unfortunately, there are also a great many hacks making even better money. Such is human nature, I guess.
As far as the existence of any paranormal human abilities is concerned, just remember that for the last 40 years James Randi has been offering 1 million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate such abilities. No one has so far even passed the initial screening tests to get to through to the more exhaustive testing which would follow. This seems to me a rather inadequate measure. Most mystics and people who develop 'paranormal' abilities tend toward spirituality and shun materialism. Greed is a talent not conducive to such 'powers', which are actually talents and skills. Besides this, the scientific method relies on direct observation, and paranormal phenomena are too poorly studied or simply misunderstood to the point that scientists are unlikely to percieve the evidence they believe does not exist. And then we come to the Hawthorne effect - the doubt and skepticism of those trying to debunk paranormal phenomena may be a serious hindrance to capturing accurate data.
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Anthony G Williams
Greybeard
Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 403
| Posted 5/8/2008 11:56 AM (GMT -4) | |
MysticWino said..
There is a great deal of skill and knowledge required for it,
Then how do you account for the study, posted by Jordan, which showed that "It did not matter whether they were stuck in traditional points using traditional methods or in non-standard points using non-traditional methods." ?
For me, there are two problems with claims of paranormal abilities:
1. They have never been demonstrated to work when subjected to any kind of objective examination.
2. So far, no mechanism by they could work has been discovered.
I therefore see no sensible reason to believe that they are possible (even though it's fun reading - and writing - about them in SFF), and will remain a sceptic until such time as one of the two objections above is overcome.
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1695
| Posted 5/8/2008 12:33 PM (GMT -4) | | Well, science does recognize internal energies, in a way. Take a look at a thermal image of a human being sometime. A human, or any endothermic animal, tends to maintain an internal temperature higher than its environment. Heat is basically energy.
Nerve impulses are basically an electro-chemical type of energy. The electric activity of the brain can be measured on an eeg - electroencephalogram:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography
So, is internal power or energy real? Of course it is! And it's backed by scientific data.
If electricity regularly flows through the body, and a conductive material is thrust into the body, I would suspect that there would be some changes to that flow, however minute. The supposed effects of that change may be what's really being debated here in terms of the reality of the benefits of accupuncture.
Now, as for the paranormal in general, science does not have all of the answers. I speak from personal experience as well as seeing some freaky evidence presented by others (the TAPS team on Ghost Hunters in particular). Poltergeist activity has been witnessed by several individuals on several occasions, and one of the current theories about poltergeist phenomena is that it is actually caused by some as-yet-unknown force coming from an adolescent's mind/body/spirit/whatever.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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Anthony G Williams
Greybeard
Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 403
| Posted 5/8/2008 12:54 PM (GMT -4) | |
RHFay said...Well, science does recognize internal energies, in a way. Take a look at a thermal image of a human being sometime. A human, or any endothermic animal, tends to maintain an internal temperature higher than its environment. Heat is basically energy. Nerve impulses are basically an electro-chemical type of energy. The electric activity of the brain can be measured on an eeg - electroencephalogram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography So, is internal power or energy real? Of course it is! And it's backed by scientific data. If electricity regularly flows through the body, and a conductive material is thrust into the body, I would suspect that there would be some changes to that flow, however minute. The supposed effects of that change may be what's really being debated here in terms of the reality of the benefits of accupuncture. Now, as for the paranormal in general, science does not have all of the answers. I speak from personal experience as well as seeing some freaky evidence presented by others (the TAPS team on Ghost Hunters in particular). Poltergeist activity has been witnessed by several individuals on several occasions, and one of the current theories about poltergeist phenomena is that it is actually caused by some as-yet-unknown force coming from an adolescent's mind/body/spirit/whatever.
Yes, of course the body produces energy - I've already pointed that out in an earlier post. But the energy produced is tiny, confined to the immediate area of the body, and not possibly strong enough to account for any major paranormal effects. Remember the Law of Conservation of Energy; if you want to shift an object a certain distance, which requires X joules of energy, then the mechanism by which it is shifted must produce at least X joules (actually a bit more, allowing for transmission losses). If it affects material objects, the energy must be detectable and measurable. So where is it, and where does it come from?
Science certainly doesn't have all the answers - yet. But it is beginning to get somewhere in accounting for ghost stories. It is possible to create ghostly apparitions in a subject's mind merely by stimulating a certain area of the brain. The question then is what natural effects might stimulate that area. I recall reading of some evidence that low-frequency sound might account for it, as can be caused in some buildings affected by winds of a certain strength and direction. Which if so would account for the only occasional "appearance" of such apparitions.
I have long been interested in the paranormal and have read a great deal about it over many years. But the principal conclusion I have drawn from all of the case studies, is that the instances which appear inexplicable only occured when no, or inadequate, measures were taken to guard against mundane explanations - including fraud.
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 906
| Posted 5/8/2008 1:24 PM (GMT -4) | |
Anthony G Williams said...
He believes that most of the benefit people feel from these treatments is down to the fact that complemetary therapists spend a long time focused on each patient, offering huge amounts of attention, sympathy, support and reassurance, which may normally be lacking in their lives - and which doctors generally don't have time for. Most people respond very positively to such attention.
- Hence, many techniques are just referred to as 'healing'. We don't want to mistake 'healing' for medicine(even though the two overlap). There are all sorts of techniques that I have great reservations about. So long as the practitioner isn't charging a boatload of money for them . . . wel, if some of the folks are helped, it's okay with me. It's like the old 'Mom's chicken soup' cure. Weather it helps or not may be debatable, but it gives comfort.
The most interesting "point" in the acupuncture study for me was that just sticking in needles anywhere had the same effect as the approved locations and methods. That rings true to me; I can well imagine that if people long ago discovered that sticking pins in could benefit certain ailments, a whole culture and mystique would grow up around it - that's the human way! After all, unless real knowledge and skill was required to apply acupuncture, there would be no living for acupuncturists...
- I'll have to say that this is not my experience. Even among accupuncturists there are the amazing, the good, and the--I'll be polite and say--not so good. If you've gone to a good one you know when something works. If you hit a not-so-good one you'll know that too, and won't go back. Just sticking needles into someone's back would probably start endorphins and relieve some pain, but then so would hitting them with a hammer. Accupuncture isn't 'hammer-fu'. It doesn't simply effect pain(although that's the #1 use). It can successfully be used to change all sorts of conditions and functions within the body. I knew a retired sailor who had a neck injury that was virtully untreatable. He'd been going to an accupuncturist and mentioned that he had trouble with constapation. He said he barely made it off the table affter the session before he had to run for the toilet. Just poking needles into folks doesn't have that effect.
As far as the existence of any paranormal human abilities is concerned, just remember that for the last 40 years James Randi has been offering 1 million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate such abilities. No one has so far even passed the initial screening tests to get to through to the more exhaustive testing which would follow.
- DR Deepek Chopra has scientifically proven the health benifits of meditation. That was poo-poo'd by science not so long ago (I can still remember when science made fun of meditation as complete B.S.). The 'Great Randy' never gave him any 'prize money'.
- After a reiki attunement (and thereafter) you can feel the difference in the student's hands (the hands radiate heat.) This is fully measurable through modern technology--not to mention anyone can feel it. yet I've never heard of a Reiki practitioner being given the prize money. I don't know what sort of BS someone would have to go through to get that cash, but obviously it would be like going on the Pen & Teller 'Bu!!$hit' show and trying to talk about the benifits of re-cycling.
- Also, once some Doctor does a study to 'prove' something new, it's no longer 'paranormal', it's 'science', and Randy doesn't have to pay.
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 906
| Posted 5/8/2008 1:50 PM (GMT -4) | |
Anthony G Williams said...
Yes, of course the body produces energy - I've already pointed that out in an earlier post. But the energy produced is tiny, confined to the immediate area of the body, and not possibly strong enough to account for any major paranormal effects. Remember the Law of Conservation of Energy; if you want to shift an object a certain distance, which requires X joules of energy, then the mechanism by which it is shifted must produce at least X joules (actually a bit more, allowing for transmission losses). If it affects material objects, the energy must be detectable and measurable. So where is it, and where does it come from?
- The energy must be detectable and measurable? Of course it does. But whatever makes you think that we have the ability to detect all forms of energy at this moment in time? It wasn't that long ago that science knew nothing about radio waves or x-rays. Last I heard science was still trying to figure out what held atoms together. We've been able to measure gravity for thousands of years but no one can reproduce it.
- 'metaphysics' is simply 'beyond science' and science makes great strided daily. What is a mystery today may very well be completely normal in the future.
- Without people reaching out beyond science, there's no new frontier to study. You ask a great question, 'Where is the energy and where does it come from?' If you really want the answer to that, you need to step out onto the road of discovery. Go out and meet with people who make use of that energy. See who's full of s##t and who is for real. There are really folks out there who can charge batteries with their hands or heal injuries through touch. There are lots of people working beyond science. You'll never know the real practitioners from the con artists unless you step into their world.
Have fun--play nice
Good hunting
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Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/8/2008 2:56 PM (GMT -4) | | I can speak from experience about the health benefits of meditation, as I meditate every day and it seems to help me control my blood glucose levels (I'm Type II diabetic.) When I make sure to mdidtate regularly, my control is better. If I get away from it for a while, my control becomes more difficult.
I can also say that Deepak Chopra is not the only person to have cited studies showing health benefits from meditation. Several have been done.
And, I can say there is no reason for James Randi to pay up ... because mediation isn't supernatural or paranormal. At least, the form of medidation I do isn't supernatural, and the form subjected to medical studies isn't supernatural. It is simply a physical and mental exercise that allows for some destressing and calming of the mind -- nothing paranormal about it.
I can also say that I have never levitated, or encountered demons, or exhibited superpowers, or transcended the mundane planes of humanity while meditating. If any of those things happen, I'll apply to have Randi test what's going on scientifically.
Steve Goble
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MysticWino
anarchist fringe monkey boddhisatva
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1600
| Posted 5/8/2008 3:00 PM (GMT -4) | | Here is another interesting article:
http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/mar/03lowbackpain.html
It gives a lot more detail. The frustration I have with the article Jordan was kind enough to link us to is that to read the full article you have to subscribe . . . and the summary really doesn't tell enough - and without the article to prove out the summary, it's risky at best to assume a high degree of accuracy in the summary itself.
And, yes, I'm willing to admit that the article to which I'm linking is an article produced by advocates of the procedure. However, I allow them as a reliable source for a number of reasons, the first being that they are a professional organization.
Tony: with all due respect, your refutation of my point about skill is off the mark. Yes, the study suggests that placement seemed nonsignificant. But this raises a great many questions about where the placebo needles were placed, how inserted, etc. Furthermore, I am fairly confident that the persons inflicting both the placebo and actual acupuncture needles were highly trained in the use of such needles. Much of the knowledge necessary for competent practice of acupuncture has to do with memorization of, or at least a working familiarity with, meridians and specific target points - of which there are at least a couple hundred. Not only must one know these, one should also know the optimal time for manipulation and treatment.
Thanks, Rob, for pointing out the next point I wanted to bring up: the limit of the research cited (by both Jordan and myself). Most of the placebo/acupuncture research I could find on a quick google [the best of which was unavailable to those not subscribed to numerous medical journals and/or Elsevier, etc.] dealt with treatment of chronic pain only - some of the neck, some of the back. But acupuncture is used to treat far, far more than just chronic pain.
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MysticWino
anarchist fringe monkey boddhisatva
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1600
| Posted 5/8/2008 3:10 PM (GMT -4) | |
Swashbuckler said...I can speak from experience about the health benefits of meditation, as I meditate every day and it seems to help me control my blood glucose levels (I'm Type II diabetic.) When I make sure to mdidtate regularly, my control is better. If I get away from it for a while, my control becomes more difficult. Very cool. Congratulations. There are a frightening lot of folks who can't meditate to save their lives. It's an unusual but highly desireable skill. Sorry to hear about the blood sugar condition. And, I can say there is no reason for James Randi to pay up ... because mediation isn't supernatural or paranormal. At least, the form of medidation I do isn't supernatural, and the form subjected to medical studies isn't supernatural. It is simply a physical and mental exercise that allows for some destressing and calming of the mind -- nothing paranormal about it. It wasn't all that long ago that scientists did deny the power of hypnosis and meditation. It was considered about as valid as voodoo. Now it's all scientific and we call it bio-feedback and auto-hypnosis. I can also say that I have never levitated, or encountered demons, or exhibited superpowers, or transcended the mundane planes of humanity while meditating. If any of those things happen, I'll apply to have Randi test what's going on scientifically. I've never levitated, either. Never seen it happen. I have experienced transcendence to some degree, and have ocassional out-of-body experiences. But how, exactly, does one prove the out-of-body experience? It's even more disconcerting than chanelling . . .
Read me soon in The Return of the Sword!
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Anthony G Williams
Greybeard
Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 403
| Posted 5/8/2008 4:51 PM (GMT -4) | |
Rob Mancebo said...
Anthony G Williams said...
Yes, of course the body produces energy - I've already pointed that out in an earlier post. But the energy produced is tiny, confined to the immediate area of the body, and not possibly strong enough to account for any major paranormal effects. Remember the Law of Conservation of Energy; if you want to shift an object a certain distance, which requires X joules of energy, then the mechanism by which it is shifted must produce at least X joules (actually a bit more, allowing for transmission losses). If it affects material objects, the energy must be detectable and measurable. So where is it, and where does it come from?
- The energy must be detectable and measurable? Of course it does. But whatever makes you think that we have the ability to detect all forms of energy at this moment in time? I never claimed we have. What I was pointing out was that any "poltergeist" force which can pick up a solid object and throw it across a room must be detectable and measurable, because it is applying a huge amount of force to a physical object. If it can affect a solid object in such a dramatic way, it will certainly affect a physical measuring device.
On the subject of ghostly apparitions, I have entirely coincidentally just read this in my local paper:
"...Charles Bonnet Syndrome, a little-known but far from rare condition which causes victims to hallucinate and 'see', among other things, people in old-fashioned dress..."
I'm not suggesting that this accounts for all ghost stories by any means, though it may well have made a contribution. However, it reinforces my point that if people "see" things which can't be physically present and which don't show up on camera, there's a very strong probability (to put it mildly) that the answer lies within their own heads.
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Anthony G Williams
Greybeard
Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 403
| Posted 5/8/2008 8:59 PM (GMT -4) | |
MysticWino said...
Tony: with all due respect, your refutation of my point about skill is off the mark. Yes, the study suggests that placement seemed nonsignificant. But this raises a great many questions about where the placebo needles were placed, how inserted, etc. Furthermore, I am fairly confident that the persons inflicting both the placebo and actual acupuncture needles were highly trained in the use of such needles. Much of the knowledge necessary for competent practice of acupuncture has to do with memorization of, or at least a working familiarity with, meridians and specific target points - of which there are at least a couple hundred. Not only must one know these, one should also know the optimal time for manipulation and treatment.
Taking the study at face value, it shows that sticking pins into people actually works, so I don't see that the placebo effect is an issue here. But a double-blind experiment with 1,100 people is a pretty powerful test, and it concluded that it doesn't matter where the pins go. To convince me otherwise, you'd have to present even stronger experimental evidence to the contrary.
On the wider issue, there is no doubt that the human mind has the ability to override the normal responses of the body. This is evidenced by such matters as hypnotism and the placebo effect (I read recently that independent tests of some commonly-prescribed medicines showed that a placebo was just as effective). If people really believe that they're going to be cured, they may well be.
However, I recall a separate study which tested the attitudes of people who knew that they had illnesses likely to prove fatal. It was found that people who were determined not to accept this and battled to fight it died off at just the same rate as those who were resigned to their fate. So there are limits.
Tony Williams
Scales (2007), The Foresight War (2004)
Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
SFF Blog: http://sciencefictionfantasy.blogspot.com/
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1695
| Posted 5/8/2008 9:04 PM (GMT -4) | | |
The idea that ghosts are basically some sort of induced hallucination might explain only one part of a much wider phenomena. And it doesn't explain how people who have no prior knowledge of a haunting will see the same hallucination that others have seen over the years. What would make people have the same hallucination, even when they have no prior knowledge of what they "should" see?
This is the problem I often have with the skeptical scientific explanations of strange phenomena; they often explain only part of it and then use that as an explanation for the whole thing. To me, that's bad science.
It's akin to the skeptics who point out that some people have created hoaxed Bigfoot prints, and then reach the conclusion that the whole concept of Bigfoot is a hoax. People impersonate Elvis, does that mean Elvis never existed?
Movement of objects, apparitions, anomalous thermal images, and strange lights have all been captured on film. That can't be explained away as hallucination. Therefore, the induced hallucination explanation is inadequate.
There could also be a misinterpretation of cause and effect here, too. What might be causing the "hallucinations" in terms of ghostly apparitions? Might it be some form of energy? EMF is thought to cause all sorts of weird physiological effects. Perhaps EMF can cause hallucinations.
Interestingly enough, paranormal investigators feel that EMF is involved somehow in many hauntings. Is EMF causing the haunting, or is the haunting causing EMF fluctuations and spikes?
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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Anthony G Williams
Greybeard
Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 403
| Posted 5/8/2008 9:52 PM (GMT -4) | | | So far I've posted two explanations offered for ghostly apparitions, one of which (stimulation of part of the brain) might be related to the conditions of a particular place, so it wouldn't be surprising if different people see such apparitions there - it would explain why some places get the reputation for being haunted. Low frequency sound was suggested as the mechanism, but since it's electrical stimulation of a part of the brain which induces such hallucinations, I suppose it is possible that some form of electrical field in that location could be responsible.
The most convincing film I've ever seen of a UFO - one which really looked like a flying machine - was taken by a passenger on an internal UK flight many years ago. The object appeared as a dot in the distance then rushed up to the plane at enormous speed, hovered there for a few seconds, then rushed away just as quickly. The image was sharp and clear, and showed a lens-shaped object with irregular markings around the rim. Now I don't believe in visiting aliens or flying saucers, but when they showed that film on TV I was impressed and rather shaken. There was no doubting the sincerity of the cameraman or the genuineness of the film. So the programme-makers borrowed the camera, loaded it with the same type of film, sat a cameraman in the same seat of the same aircraft flying the same route, and did some filming.
It turned out that the window glass was not flat across its width but had a bevel along the edge which distorted the view. If you got the camera in exactly the right position, it showed a part of the horizontal tail which seemed to be detached from the plane, and appeared as a lens-shaped object with the irregular markings just being erosion of the paint. By shifting position slightly, the cameraman was able to make the "UFO" appear and disappear at will.
That was a salutary lesson for me...no matter how convincing a film might be, and how genuine the cameraman, do not take it at face value.
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1695
| Posted 5/8/2008 10:07 PM (GMT -4) | | Then what's left? If eye witness accounts are out, and film is out, what's left? Physical evidence, of course.
But then, what counts as physical evidence? To use one of my favourite examples, scientists still often discount Bigfoot footprints. In terms of ghostly phenomena, you often have EVP recordings and strange fluctuations in EMF metres in association with personal encounters and things captured on film.
Unfortunately, you can't haul a ghost's carcass in front of a scientist to prove it's real. And, since most ghosts hang out in pretty specific spots, you can't just invite them to the lab for a special performance.
Admitedly, that's the problem with much paranormal phenomena.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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