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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Anything Goes! > Internal power/energy is real??? | Forum Quick Jump
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Jaqhama
Adventurer
      
Date Joined Oct 2007
Total Posts : 464
| Posted 5/6/2008 11:44 AM (GMT -4) |   | | On the subject of power/magic/technology...
A lot of scientists say that Ki/Chi/Psi/psychic power doesn't exist...but I'm afraid that's not correct.
As a classic example I give you Tak Kubota, world famous exponent of Karate who is well known for breaking car leaf springs (old fashioned suspension struts) with his bare hands.
This is not forgetting the thousands of Karateka's who can breack concrete blocks/bricks/ice/and other solid objects with their hands.
Most of them don't even scratch their or break their skin when doing so.
And flesh is a lot softer than any of the above.
Any thoughts on how this is possible if the above energy sources don't come into play?
I used to do a lot of breaking. Though never a leaf spring. That may be forever beyond me. Though I live in hope.
I can't break one because I can't my head around the idea of being able to do so.
I also can't my head around the idea that I'll break my hand if I try.
That fear is what stops me being able to do it in the first place.
You can read some of my stories here: Swamp Story. Down South. Florida Haze.Wild Justice...
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 911
| Posted 5/6/2008 12:03 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jaqhama said...
On the subject of power/magic/technology...
A lot of scientists say that Ki/Chi/Psi/psychic power doesn't exist...but I'm afraid that's not correct.
- In the 1980s Scientists claimed that acupuncture didn't work. It is in science's nature to question and deny anything not proven through the scientific method. In the East, the 'scientific method' was not traditionally used.
- So, if something's worked for folks for 2,000 years, do we just continue to take it on faith or test it? Different answers on that from different schools of thought.
- Dr Glenn Morris did a lot of testing of 'Weird Science'. Some of that research is well described in 'Path Notes of an American Ninja Master' . That's a great read for those who wish to explore beyond science. (Warning- having read and practiced techniques from that book will get you strange looks even from the teachers in the Bujinkan ninja schools.) His later books: Shadow Stratagies, and Martial Arts Madness are out of print and $80+ last time I heard.
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Jordan Lapp
ppaL nadroJ
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 2585
| Posted 5/6/2008 1:28 PM (GMT -4) | |
Rob Mancebo said...
- In the 1980s Scientists claimed that acupuncture didn't work. It is in science's nature to question and deny anything not proven through the scientific method. In the East, the 'scientific method' was not traditionally used. Turns out that acupuncture DOES work... BUT it doesn't matter where you poke someone with a sharp object. It's the poking that counts.
From Skepdic.com:
For example, a randomized, blinded study involving over 1,100 subjects with chronic back pain were given different treatments and evaluated after six months using both the Von Korff and the Hanover instruments. The study compared treatment by (1) acupuncture using traditional acupuncture points and methods, (2) acupuncture that used non-traditional points and methods (the needles weren't inserted as deeply or twirled as in traditional acupuncture, and (3) treatment involving drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. About twice as many in the groups stuck with needles responded to the treatment as in the non-needle group. It did not matter whether they were stuck in traditional points using traditional methods or in non-standard points using non-traditional methods. About 45% responded in these groups compared to about 25% in the group treated with drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. According to the BBC:
The researchers, from the Ruhr University Bochum, say their findings suggest that the body may react positively to any thin needle prick - or that acupuncture may simply trigger a placebo effect.*
Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor
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MysticWino
anarchist fringe monkey boddhisatva
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1632
| Posted 5/6/2008 7:52 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 911
| Posted 5/7/2008 2:36 AM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...
Rob Mancebo said...
- In the 1980s Scientists claimed that acupuncture didn't work. It is in science's nature to question and deny anything not proven through the scientific method. In the East, the 'scientific method' was not traditionally used. Turns out that acupuncture DOES work... BUT it doesn't matter where you poke someone with a sharp object. It's the poking that counts.
From Skepdic.com:
For example, a randomized, blinded study involving over 1,100 subjects with chronic back pain were given different treatments and evaluated after six months using both the Von Korff and the Hanover instruments. The study compared treatment by (1) acupuncture using traditional acupuncture points and methods, (2) acupuncture that used non-traditional points and methods (the needles weren't inserted as deeply or twirled as in traditional acupuncture, and (3) treatment involving drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. About twice as many in the groups stuck with needles responded to the treatment as in the non-needle group. It did not matter whether they were stuck in traditional points using traditional methods or in non-standard points using non-traditional methods. About 45% responded in these groups compared to about 25% in the group treated with drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. According to the BBC:
The researchers, from the Ruhr University Bochum, say their findings suggest that the body may react positively to any thin needle prick - or that acupuncture may simply trigger a placebo effect.*
- This is like what was being passed around in the 80's, 'it's only the placebo effect etc. etc.' then they sent doctors to China and got to watch them doing abdominal surgery on patients who were wide-awake using only accupuncture as anastetic and other things that just couldn't be explained away as the 'placebo effect'. It was studied seriously and validated. It went from the area of 'witchcraft/folklore/BS' to being substantiated and recognized as a 'medical proceedure'.
- You don't honestly think HMOs are going to pay out millions of dollars to cover accupuncture when someone can really prove poking a needle in someone's back is going to do the same thing, do you?
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Jordan Lapp
ppaL nadroJ
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 2585
| Posted 5/7/2008 2:39 AM (GMT -4) | |
Rob Mancebo said...
- You don't honestly think HMOs are going to pay out millions of dollars to cover accupuncture when someone can really prove poking a needle in someone's back is going to do the same thing, do you?
The study took place in Germany where medicine is socialized.
I think people are going to believe what they believe. I'm willing to say that accupuncture MAY work, but at the moment the evidence points the other way.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 911
| Posted 5/7/2008 2:50 AM (GMT -4) | |
SJHigbee said...
I'll fully accept that there might be some placebo effect in relation to my back injury - but what about the other totally unexpected symptoms? I hadn't any expectation of these - my physio had warned me that I might have some slight tingling and was as surprised as me that my reactions were so strong. - Energy does weird things in a body that's not ready for it to move. My experience with accupuncture has always been positive, yet much less helpful with some practitioners than with others. Some folks are just not as good at it as others. If you're having trouble you might try reiki. That will get you in closer touch with what's going on. Other than that it takes a lot of meditation.
- Also note that Glenn Morris writes that Chinese martial artists call accupuncturists 'Lazy Technitions' because they use needles to manipulate chi instead of using their own energy.
- When we were living in 'The little orient' we had herbalists and accupunctureists all over. I miss that. I have no access for comparason out here in 'cowboy country'.
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore www.geocities.com/robmancebo/
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 911
| Posted 5/7/2008 2:54 AM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...
The study took place in Germany where medicine is socialized.
I think people are going to believe what they believe. I'm willing to say that accupuncture MAY work, but at the moment the evidence points the other way.
- We all have to learn from our own experiences. However, I believe that 2,000 years of evidence from China points to it working, as do numerous modern studies by sceptical MDs.
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 911
| Posted 5/7/2008 3:24 AM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...I admit that I'm no authority here. Do you have some links to those studies so I can check them out? I'm open to changing my mind on this
- Not a one. I kept track of all that stuff almost a quarter of a century ago when it was common news. It was in local papers and TV when Nixon opened relations with China. (Headlines, What a surprise! Something China's been doing for 2,000 years might actually work! We're sending Doctors to study it!)
- Once it was Accepted and became common practice, I quit following it. My parents came back from a trip to China in the 90's with stories about medical chi kung demonstrations.
- A red sash Dragon/Tiger-Crain Sifu was a local friend. He healed a chronic ear infection my daughter had for years by simply holding his hand over it (running energy). His hands radiated heat energy like an oven and he did what MDs had been trying to do for years in about one minute.
- When my wife was in terrible pain after a car wreck and Doctors couldn't do anything except perscribe massive pain-killers. One session with an accupuncturist from Hong Kong and her headache went away for two days. One more session after that, and it was gone--period. (He warned it might sneak back in after the first session. But it's never come back after the second.)
- I mentioned the HMOs because medicine is NOT socialized over here and the huge HMOs are infamous for not wanting to pay for newer or questionable treatments. Again, it was big news over here when they began offering to pay on claims for accupuncture treatment. Now it's a standard.
- So, sorry, no, I haven't bothered to keep track of anyone's scientific tests. I'd just have to look them up. I thought everyone got their fill of those studies decades ago.
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4740
| Posted 5/7/2008 1:56 PM (GMT -4) | | Jordan Lapp said...crystalwizard said...
Jordan, one of the things I notice that you do is to find some survey (as in this case) or some other source and then run around quoting them as the authority to end all authorities. Meanwhile you do no real research of your own. You're kidding. I do the research. I actually read those studies.
Real research, Jordan, isn't reading and quoting a study.
It's going an doing. Going and talking to people involved with something, going to a place or taking part in an activity. Conducting your own study even and making sure you involve a good cross section of participants. Not just reading what someone else has written. You have no way of knowing if they are even giving you all the facts, much less whether they actually got facts.
If you were going to write a piece of fiction and have someone use an unfamiliar weapon, which do you think would make your story more realistic? To go read some research study by someone you don't even know, to talk to someone that's an expert with the weapon or to actually handle the weapon yourself?
>Look, I'm not going to get into another fruitless argument. If you believe in accupuncture more power to you.
It's not a fruitless argument and it's not just about this specific subject. It's how you approach just about every discussion and one reason you make so many people mad at you around here.
A lot of the time you come off as trying to be the "authority" because you went and found some study, read over it and then quoted it as gospel... meanwhile the other people involved in the discussion know the facts, have practical experience and get very angry at your know-it-all attitude and telling them that they are wrong. | | Back to Top | | |
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Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1255
| Posted 5/7/2008 4:59 PM (GMT -4) | | Wouldn't it be kind of silly to insist that nobody talk about anything on here unless they have direct first-hand experience with the topic?
OK, yeah, Jordan does tend to argue from authority quite often. But he also has demonstrated an ability to see someone else's point, and to think for himself, and to extrapolate from what appears to be a wide range of reading material, etc. He's even been known to change his mind and come back here to say, "I've thought about this and I was wrong." So why is this thread suddenly celebrating "Beat up on Jordan Day?" (And why didn't anyone send me a Hallmark card?)
Jordan puts a lot of weight on the scientific method and peer-reviewed studies, etc. The scientific method has a pretty good track record, and Jordan's experience tells him to give science some credibility. Nothing wrong with that.
Others tend to not give such weight to science, preferring to go with their own experience. That's OK, too.
But, man, do we have to go at each other tooth-and-claw? Do we have to get PO'd just because someone disagrees with us? Do we have to lecture one another? (And, yeah, ironically enough, here I am lecturing ...)
I've already had one Internet friendship go down the tubes because an attempt at intellectual discussion turned into accusations of dishonesty and lying. I'm not happy about it, and I'd hate to see it happen to others. So ... I speak up. Sue me.
This is a good place to hang out online. There are a lot of smart people here, from a lot of backgrounds. I'd hate to see it become a place where people just stop talking because they can't respect one another, or where people are looking so hard for insult in everything someone writes that they see it whether it exists or not.
Jordan, you're an OK guy, even if you do argue from authority a lot.
Steve Goble
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Jordan Lapp
ppaL nadroJ
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 2585
| Posted 5/7/2008 5:11 PM (GMT -4) | | | Thanks Steve.
I'm working on just letting things go.
Previously, I've always felt like I had to prove my point (which is why I cite supporting documentation. Damn debate club!), but that's not all that helpful because people believe what they want to believe, and they get angry if you challenge them. Arguing in these circumstances is pointless, but instead of just giving up, I just keep on going.... which serves no purpose.
Unfortunately, when it comes to internet debate, this is me.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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